Discuss Revelation 20 Page 11

Earl.

The verses you have given doesn't settle the question. Where's the scripture where everyone goes to heaven, Some with glorified bodies Some with early bodies?

Who's those left without the Gate in Revelation 22:15. ?

The resurrection has already past.

And Who is the unjust that will remain in Revelation 22:11. ?

The Resurrection has already past.

Here's the Redeemed. As well as the verses you have given.

" Revelation 20:4-6. "...

..6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here's the Lost. "Twice Dead "

Revelation 20:11-14. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

You know for a person that once said that one can't just read the scripture for truth or Bible dictionaries ect.. You sure post a lot of Scripture.

WHO'S THOSE LEFT WITHOUT THE GATE AND REMAIN UNJUST After the Resurrection and Judgements?

Thanks Brother Earl.

I believe that fire in Revelation 20:15. is one I'm going to stay away from.

Brother S Spencer, May I add three more scriptures to 1 Corinthians 3:14 -15 that helps clarify it.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the book of life was cast into the lake of FIRE.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall WORSHIP him, whose names ARE NOT WRITTEN in the book of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN (even the ones cast into the lake of fire), specially those ( the elect) that believe.

English Sacha. Is that what you have gleaned from what I addressed to Earl? You've made some assumptions that clearly are emotive rather than what I had written or is revealed in the Bible. We're discussing the fact of God's Judgement to all who are not saved through Jesus Christ.

How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.

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The JWs brought in their elders to talk to me two days later. We discussed the same matter with our Bibles opened. They also spoke of death as sin's penalty (as you have) & that no other eternal fiery judgement awaited the unrepentant. So I asked, 'if you're preaching a salvation that ultimately finds one in the everlasting Presence of God, are you then saying that death is the only punishment for the ungodly?' They affirmed that.

I then asked, 'But if we all die & some are raised incorruptible to reign with Christ & God, what then is the judgement for sin & Christ rejection?' 'Only death', they said. 'So does it makes any sense that an innocent Jesus, God's Son, should suffer an horrible death for us, the apostles should willingly lay down their lives for the love of Christ & the Gospel, & countless others have not denied their Saviour, many walking joyfully to the stake of fiery death, just so that the sinner's present & final judgement rests only in the grave?' Those men arose & left.

If it wasn't for the fact that Jesus was my sin-Bearer, bringing me into a new & right relationship with the Godhead, and that eternal suffering was my certain destiny, then I would not be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ today - I would be quite satisfied to 'eat, drink & be merry', die a natural death without a Saviour, maybe raised up later for judgement & put to death again with no further consciousness in the grave. But when conviction came, I ran into the arms of a merciful Saviour in Heaven because I fled from the arms of a ruthless Satan awaiting his fiery destiny ( Revelation 20:10, 21:8). The Offence of the Cross is ceased if any other Gospel is preached that provides an easy road to indifferent sinners.

Brother Chris, the wages of sin is death and the grave. Our sin, most of which, is unbelief, causes death, and when we are dead we cannot bring glory to our creator. Christ died and was resurrected to restore this condition. Christ overcomes sin in our lives, therefore at some point in time, death will be destroyed. Those called out in this age are coming to this knowledge. Those not called out in this age will be resurrected back to their flesh and brought to truth.

Luke 16:26 The gulf that can't be passed over is death and the grave, locked in prison.

Matthew 5:25-26 In this scripture our (flesh) is the adversary to God (Spirit) if we don't agree with Him, he delivers us to the judge (Christ, the words and chastisement), if we still don't agree, he delivers us to the officer (death) and cast us into prison (grave).

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan (flesh) shall be loosed out of prison (death and the grave), the gulf that couldn't be crossed.

Christ has the keys to death and the grave. His resurrection unlocked and destroyed death and the grave, we are restored to Sons of God. ( Job 38:7)( Revelation 22:16)

Job 17:13-16

Chris, for fifty plus years, I was taught and BELIEVED in a Literal place called heaven and a Literal place called hell.

God stopped me dead in my tracks and isolated me for five plus years with his word and his Spirit, and taught me what the Kingdom of God actually is. It not a place, it's a person, Sons of God, like Christ himself.

All of creation are brothers and sisters, of an in CHRIST, and at God's appointed time, each and everyone with be delivered, By CHRIST, into the Kingdom of God.

Your friend: What if the scriptures mean this:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

What if: Those that sleep in Jesus are the Old Testament Saints that died never receiving the promised victory over death, but had to wait on Christ resurrection.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many of the bodies of the saints which slept (in Jesus) arose (with Christ),

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

What if: the holy city was New Jerusalem and not Old Jerusalem.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

What if: those that are alive and remain, are the ones that had their part in the first resurrection and never saw death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that had part in the first resurrection......

John 8:51 .....he shall never see death.

The saints from the Old Testament and those that never see death, all took part in the first resurrection. These want prevent those left in their graves from seeing a future resurrection.

This (first) resurrection want prevent those still in their graves from seeing a future (second) resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall shall rise first.

What if: the is just reaffirming the above verses, the saints and the ones who died with Christ having their part in the first resurrection; making sure we know there are two resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain (alive because we never saw death) shall be caught up together with them (saints of old) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Brother Earl,

I believe the same observation could be of many church-going folks, the building with whatever name that's put on it has become the church, not the people, lost in routines, many are called but few are chosen. It is sad when attendance is put above all. When Jesus first came was for the lost sheep of Israel, and to fulfill the law and the prophets. To confirm and fulfill the first and confirm the New in, the likeness of sinful flesh, what we see in Daniel 9:27 that many put at the end time.

I agree hell is not a place for the condemned and paradise is not a place for the righteous as holding places of the dead. I have not found one verse that say we go to heaven. In Revelation 20:14 we see the last enemy; death and its holding place hell (the grave) are cast into the lake of fire. In scripture when we die the grave is our home of corruption and if the same Spirit dwell in us, we will be raised by the Spirit that raised Christ, in incorruption in our immortal glorified body, death is swallowed up in victory.

When Jesus first came the land was highly influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy. Whether we believe it or not it still has influence on today, the meaning of death, immortal souls, monasticism that Jesus called Nicolaitans, and more.

As we see in Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom and what is bound or loosed in earth will be done so in heaven. The reason of all the parables was the mysteries of the kingdom was not for them to know but for those who were chosen.

I agree in most of your post but if I understand correctly those after resurrection being brought into the fold. I struggle lining that up with the white throne judgment of the rest of the dead. Revelation 20:11-15. These are not all lost people, there will be some not cast into the lake of fire because the book of life is opened and only those not written in it will be cast in to the lake of fire.

Have a great day and God bless,

RLW

Brother Keven:

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Acts 1:11 Which (two Angels; glorified messengers) also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven (they could only see heaven as the blue sky above them)? this same Jesus, which is taken up into heaven (INTO MAN), shall so come in like manner (IN MAN) as ye have seen him go into heaven (INTO MAN).

Revelation 1:7 Behold he (Christ) cometh (at the resurrection of the DEAD) with the CLOUDS (the SAINTS clothed in CHRIST), and every eye shall see him (because there will be millions of Saints that are the IMAGE OF CHRIST), and they also which pierced him (in Christ appearance to Thomas he bore the marks of the cross in his glorified flesh, the word doesn't say; but since we were crucified with him we could also bear the marks of the cross, for all the world to see): and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horseman (not literal, but the Saints) were two hundred thousand thousand (not literally that exact number, signified) .....

Revelation 20:7 An when the thousand years (not literal, but signified, the Day of the Lord or the AGE of Grace or the AGE of those CHOSEN to be PRIEST, CHOOSEN to be covered by the blood of the LAMB and DEATH PASSED OVER THEM.) are expired, Satan (terrestrial flesh, those resurrected back to judgement) shall be loosed out of his prison (DEATH AND THE GRAVE).

Matthew 5:25 ....and thou shalt be cast into PRISON (DEATH AND THE GRAVE).

The wages on sin (UNBELIEF, all other sins are COVERED BY THE BLOOD) IS DEATH (and the GRAVE).

Sister Sacha, Christ is going to stand on this earth in GLORIFIED FLESH. The Saints also who have been CREATED in the IMAGE of CHRIST, with the same GLORIFIED FLESH, as Christ are going to stand with Him, and together they (being made ONE, same BODY and same MIND) are going to JUDGE THE EARTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS ( Isaiah 26:9).

Luke 24:9 Behold my hands and my feet, that it (glorified flesh) IS I MYSELF: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41 ALL FLESH is not the SAME FLESH .....one celestial and one terrestrial .....

This is hard to wrap our minds around, Christ has a body that can exist IN MAN, or stand in the presents of man.

It's even harder to wrap our minds around the fact that we ALSO are going to have this SAME BODY.

This is what the thousand year reign with Christ is all about. The thousand years are not LITERALLY ONE THOUSAND YEARS, but one day (DAY OF THE LORD which has been happening now for two thousand years) is as a thousand years and a thousand years as on day ( 2 Peter 3:8).

Matthew 20:1-16 Christ went out at the first of the day (of the Lord) to call workers to his vineyard.

This would apply to all those that were apostles and received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

When they departed their terrestrial bodies they were given celestial bodies and they are still working in God's vineyard ( Revelation 10:11)( John 1:51)( Genesis 28:12).

Psalms 103:20 Bless the Lord, ye his angels ...

Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Luke 20:36 ...neither can the die anymore, for they are equal to the angels ...

For the last two thousand years (one day, God has been calling workers to work in God's vineyard vineyard; first in a terrestrial body and then in a celestial body.

You are a worker NOW in a terrestrial body; when you DEPART your terrestrial body, you will NEVER SEE DEATH, but CONTINUE being a worker in your CELESTIAL BODY. ( Revelation 20:6)

Sister Sacha, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

In reading your past comments I know you think you are going to lay in the grave until the resurrection of the dead.

God's word says those born again (IN CHRIST, IN the book of LIFE) will never see death. You LIFE is IN CHRIST, Christ is IMMORTALITY.

You were RAISE with CHRIST (this is the first resurrection)

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he (you Sacha) that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION; on such the second death hath no power, but they (you Sacha) shall be priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Luke 20:35 But they (you Sacha) which shall BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY (you Sacha are CHOSEN) to obtain that world (the same way and glory Christ always had with the Father in that world) and the resurrection (you Sacha and Christ died together and were raise together, Sacha in Christ and Christ in Sacha, made ONE) from the dead .....

Luke 20:36 Neither can they (you Sacha) DIE anymore: for they (you Sacha) are EQUAL to the angels (Christ is the angel of God); and are the children of God, being the children of the (you Sacha and Christ) RESURRECTION.

God bless you!

Brother SAM:

Ephesians 2:6 And (God, the Father) hath raised US up TOGETHER (you and Christ) and made us (you and Christ) sit together (become one) in heavenly places.

This is the first death and resurrection (you died with Christ and were raised with Christ).

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he (you and Christ) that hath part in the first resurrection ....

Matthew 19:6 Therefore they (you and Christ) are no more twain, but ONE FLESH. What therefore God (SPIRIT) hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

GBU

Hello Tony. Thank you for your further clarification; previously I wasn't clear as to how you were viewing these passages. If I may explain my understanding:

a. Jeremiah 31:34 & Micah 7:18-20. I believe we see these passages differently. In both passages, I see a new Covenant God made & now brings in for Israel. This is not the New Covenant in Christ's Blood which avails for all men, but another Covenant that is different from the Mosaic ( Jeremiah 31:31,32) (& by inference, the Davidic) - a Covenant which will be unconditional (v32); it will include a change in their hearts, fellowship with God, knowledge of God, & forgiveness of sins (vv33-34). In Truth, all this avails for them through the Messiah of God, Whom they rejected & crucified; & so they go the same way as the Gentiles who reject God's Offer of Salvation. Yet, there will be a day in the Millennium, when they will finally acknowledge the One "Whom they pierced" & God will confirm this Covenant made to them & their sins will be forgiven. And also with Micah 7:11-20: God will fulfil His Promises to Israel, to Abraham, & to the fathers of old (v20). These verses also speak of that special time of forgiveness & blessing to the House of Israel.

b. Revelation 20:10. This verse aligns with Revelation 19:19,20; that the beast & his false prophet were first cast into the Lake of Fire. And Revelation 20:10 shows that Satan also joins them there & their torment will be eternal. So, I don't understand, "Since the wicked are raised from their fiery grave, why do they need a second judgement?" Which 'raising' are you referring to? And which 'wicked'? But if you're referring to vv 11-15 (Great White Throne Judgement), the Books were opened & their names were not found therein - & those dead were raised to judgement, including the finality of death & hell, were all likewise consigned to that eternal flame.

So I sense that our interpretation of these passages may differ, which I'm happy to pursue.

Hi Chris, Hi, the "torment" being used for 'testing', in your understanding, does this 'testing' continue eternally without any finality to their judgement?" On Jeremiah 31:34, I am referring to Micah 7:18-20 refers to the remnant of God, "Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea." The wicked have no part nor have another opportunity for redemption. The "testing" is given by God for the redeemed sake. God's judgment is final. It is not a testing time for unbelievers, but for the saints to know why our loved ones are not with us.

The "stone" referred to in Mathew 21 was used for joining two walls together, you are correct. Also, I see Matthew 21:24 emphasizing the result of rejecting the stone that crushes them. This is the way I view the Greek Lithos, Strong NT 928 and NT 939 in both Matthew and Revelation 20:10. Since the wicked are raised from their fiery grave, why do they need a second judgement? Have they not been previously suffering under the flames of eternity, some for thousands of years?

This is not a testing time to see if the lost get another chance at salvation. When the Books are opened, there will be no doubt why the lost are lost. We will be able to read the facts for ourselves. I cannot understand Revelation 20:10 and the raising of the wicked for any other reason.

I enjoy our study together. "Iron sharpens iron." Please continue to share your thoughts on the subject. Or any other topic of interests you may have. Blessings!

DALE E STAHLBERG,

From the first Adam, all have sinned Romans 5:12. Even without the law we have sinned, there are people in this world that do much evil and there are people in this world that do much good and neither have never seen a bible or heard of Jesus. From the first Adam, not only death was passed, every person is born with the knowledge of good and evil, it is written in our conscience. With or without the knowledge of the law, one may choose to either do evil or do good.

We see in Romans 2:12-15, read the entire chapter. Jesus first came almost 2000 years ago, the Messiah for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then by the grace of God, the gospel of Jesus was given to all the other nations. Millions of people lived and died before He first came, are they doomed to eternal death? Millions since have never heard of Him, are they doomed?

What we should contemplate, will we that have heard the gospel of Jesus be held to a higher standard of judgment? We see when Jesus sent the disciples out to tell people the kingdom of heaven is at hand, what it would be like if they rejected it. Matthew 10:14-15.

Many see the great white throne judgment is only for the lost, but in my understanding, scripture does not support that. We have Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46, and more, and the parables. After the one thousand years, Revelation 20:11-15. All the rest of the dead small and great, raised from the dead, they will be judged out of the books and one of these books is the book of life, and whoever was not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Would the book of life be needed if all were lost? God is a just God and we can trust in His word.

This is my understanding, may others have another view.

God bless,

RLW

Thank you Tony. In reference to Revelation 20:10, the "torment" being used for 'testing', in your understanding, does this 'testing' continue eternally without any finality to their judgement? Or does the verse more fully speak of that eternal torment received is the result of them being found guilty & deserving of their punishment. I became confused when you also referred to Jeremiah 31:34: are you speaking of the saved whose sins are already forgiven by virtue of Christ's death, or for some type of redemption for the unsaved?

And then to the "touchstone" & the connection to the "cornerstone". Though the same Greek word for Stone is used, I see a different application, where Christ is seen not as the 'testing' stone but as the very stone that forms the joint for connecting the two walls together, & is being rejected as useless (as was the rejection of the lord of vineyard's son). And the chief priests & scribes correctly perceived "that he had spoken this parable against them".

And then when we come to Revelation 20:10, where the "devil is was cast into the Lake of Fire, where the beast & the false prophet already are", I don't understand this to be a testing time for unbelievers. Their judgement is seen in Revelation 20:11-13, when the Books are opened & according to their works, were deemed guilty & not found in the Book of Life. Their judgement & punishment are now eternal. Those who belong to Him, through His Son, have been eternally secured, & their only judgement is in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, where rewards are given to those who have built their Christian lives well on that One Foundation & sadly with shamefacedness & loss to those who have dishonoured Him in their lives.

There's more to share, but I feel that I may not have fully comprehended your understanding, so will leave it for now.

CONTINUED ON REVELATION 20:10 . The righteous will witness false believers rejecting the testing of the Stone. The fire will witness that He has not made a mistake in judging the lost. If He could make a mistake about someone's salvation among the lost, the fire could have no effect on them, the fire cannot destroy the gold of redemption which is in Christ. I can understand the horror and grief as the redeem see that there is no possibility for loved ones to be saved. As terrible as this testing is, God has made clear that He judged correctly. Then He wipes away all tears from our eyes, and we leave behind all that we experienced in this world of sin, For God also wipes away our sins. Jeremiah 31:34



"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD : for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD ; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

When God chooses not to remember something, it cannot exist anywhere. What a God!

Hi Chris-Here's my understanding of the Greek word for "torment," in Revelation 20:10. First, I have read this passage many times (who doesn't read Revelation many times?) This is what struck me. Why are the wicked raised from the dead? Haven't they been previously judged at this time? What is God's purpose in casting them into the Lake of fire? Most all believers have family members and close friends who we thought would be in the kingdom. Why do the righteous in the Holy City have to see people we love about to face their eternity in the fire?

As you pointed out, the word in Greek is ""basanisthesontai." Strong's NT 928. It is associated with NT 931, a "Touchstone." It is also related to the ancient word for "testing," This where I saw the full impact of Rev 20:10. Their torment is related to testing them. Jesus says in Rev 3:18, "Buy of Me gold tried in the fire."

In 1 Corinthians 3:10-14, Paul refers to this time of testing by fire. It will reveal "every man's work," as to the person's true character. And only precious metal will survive the fire. In ancient Greek, NT 931, "Touchstone" was a "Lydiam stone" used by assayers to determine the value of certain metals (gold and silver). As the assayer pressed the metal against the stone, it would leave a streak that determined its value. Luke 20:17, Jesus mentions that He is the "Stone" Israel rejected. The Geek word for stone is, "Lithos," or Lydiam, the stone used by assayers."

My question at this point was, "Why does God test the lost in Rev 20:10? He knows who are His and those that don't belong to Him. Therefore, the testing must be for the redeemed! The only scenario I see is that God wants the redeemed to know why their loved ones are not saved. He does not want the saved to raise the question of, "Will the possibility of sin ever occur again in the New Earth? Basically, this testing time demonstrates that the lost do not want to follow or worship Christ. CONTINUED...

Thank you Tony for your further comments. Just taking up your question now on Revelation 20:10, which I neglected to do earlier for lack of comment space.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Noting your brief comment on this & what I can see of the word "vasanistirio" or, "basanizo", it speaks of 'torment, torture, examining by torture'. However, you've written, "The English robs God of His mercy and goodness in this last act with the lost." I assume you mean the English usage of the Greek word, so I would be intrigued what this word means to you, in line with the Revelation verse.

Greetings my brother Chris.

Pardon my tremendous error in my previous response!!! A mighty example of the mind outracing the fingers on the keyboard.

I apologize for sending "I believe Revelation 20:14 explains the place all souls reside after death until the gathering of the church and the following judgment of the lost." My intention was to state - I believe Revelation 20;14 explains the place all lost souls eternally reside after the gathering of the church and following the judgment of the lost. Quite different than what I originally sent.

As to my comments on 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, I do not think Paul fully understood the timing of the return of Christ for His church. In my studies, I have found that many, perhaps a large majority, of early believers envisioned a quick return of Christ. Paul was the foremost of these believers in a return in his lifetime. Thus stated, at the time of his writing (dictating?) Second Corinthians I believe Paul expected an imminent return of Christ. Later, I believe Paul came to realize the timetable of Christ's return was longer than he originally believed.

It is believed Paul initially visited Corinth about 50-51 CE. The First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians is believed to have been written about 53-54 CE from Ephesus. The second letter is believed to have been written from Macedonia in about 55 CE. Thus the second letter was approximately 5 years after Paul first visited Corinth. Paul's execution is dated between 67 and 70 CE.

Based on the traditional view, 2 Timothy was Paul's final epistle and is dated as 67 CE and originated in Rome. While the date is not certain, the location is known as Paul was in the custody of the Romans at his time.

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e that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Brother Bill, I continue to enjoy our discussions.

Couple of your points. Firstly, distinguishing between Sheol & the Lake of Fire. You stated that "I believe Revelation 20:14 explains the place all souls reside after death until the gathering of the church and the following judgment of the lost." That passage speaks of the Lake of Fire which apparently is the terminus of all unforgiven sinners, including Satan, his henchmen, the Anti-christ, etc., or maybe I've misunderstood you. Can that burning Lake, from which there is no escape, be considered a holding place for all souls after death? Indeed, as you stated, "God would have none perish in the eternal fire as He is love", yet we know that the majority will suffer in that eternal raging flame for they have spurned the offer of God's Love, despised His Son, & must suffer under His Just Hand. If that were not so, there is no case for the Gospel & its spread, often done in great labours even death, throughout the world.

Re: 2 Corinthians 5:1-8. I've re-read this. In verses 1-4, Paul writes on our 'earthly house' being dissolved (returned to dust), & we have the promise of a "house from Heaven". And verse 5 connects that thought of our glorified body provided by the same God Who has given us the "earnest of the Spirit", with the next verses. Paul says 'while he is in this body, he is absent from the Lord'. Rather the very opposite is his longing & confidence, 'to be absent in the body & to be present with the Lord'. So, I agree with how you read some of this portion, though I guess, it's how we read verses 6 & 8. Is Paul inferring a gap between his bodily demise & spiritual awakening in the Lord's Presence, or does he envision a 'no gap': his spirit must either be clothed in a body or be clothed in a heavenly body? - Either here or there. Can a believer given the Spirit & leaving this Earth, be left in a state of flux, rather than immediately return to the One Who has purchased us, completing His redemptive work?

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Good morning brother Chris!

Oh, the power of this discussion! So much to share together and expand our minds in the Spirit.

Your last post opens a wealth of information contained in both the Old and New Testaments as we know them.

We must agree that we have, and will keep, very separate views of the story of the beggar, Lazarus. I have no problem with our differing views as it is my firm conviction, that with few verese excluded, God reveals truth on an individual basis. This is where we two are on this scripture.

My personal belief is that ALL souls do, and always have, leave the body and go to a "holding place" until the gathering of the church by Christ. Further, I do not believe there is a "chasm" between the good and bad souls across which the two sides can see and talk with each other; prior to the resurrection or afterward.

Revelation 20:14 says that death and hades, Greek, (Sheol Hebrew), are thrown into the lake of fire. Why? Because they are no longer part of God's realm - death will be absent in eternity and the residence of the souls is unnecessary because of the judgment of the non-believer in verse 20:11.

I believe Revelation 20:14 explains the place all souls reside after death until the gathering of the church and the following judgment of the lost. If the place is named, its location is not. However, it does exist and verses indicate Christ visited Sheol during the three days prior to the resurrection - 1 Peter 3:18-20; Ephesians 4:9-10, (see Psalms 68:18, Isaiah 61:1-2, and Luke 4:18).

Why would Christ visit the souls in Sheol? All covenants before that of Christ did not include salvation, only atonement for sin by animal blood. The spirits of all that died prior to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ were given the chance to acknowledge Christ and His salvation to allow them to be participants in the salvation provided by the resurrection.

God would have none perish in the eternal fire as He is love.

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Brother david, i fully agree.

philippians 2:13 for it is god that worketh in you both to will and to do his good pleasure.

you (sinful flesh died, on the cross, you no longer exist. the life (i am the way, truth, life) now in you is christ.

no greater love has a man than to give his life for his brother. have you died to christ (the word of god, this is the first death) (first resurrection).

revelation 20:6

revelation 13:10

Thank you, T. Levis for the verses.

Revelation 20:12-15 is an interesting set of verses and its meaning/knowledge depends on the interpretation of the keywords of:

1. Verse 12. "The DEAD, small and great" - I see this as meaning those that are non-believers only because the believers, other than those saved during the millennium, are already in heaven at the gathering of the church by Christ.

2. Verse 13. "The sea" - These words are used in the following two verses to indicate the lost mass of humanity:



Matthew 13:47-50.

Matthew 4:18-20.

3. Revelation 20:5. "The rest of the dead lived not again" - clearly a reference to the non-believers as the remaining dead would have to be those not gathered by Christ in the clouds. These dead are dead throughout the millennium.

Again, thank you for your response and the verses provided.

Hopefully these are helpful.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58

Luke 16:22-26

Hebrews 9:27

Revelation 2:11

Revelation 20:4-6

Revelation 20:12-15

Revelation 3:3-5

Revelation 21:10-27

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

Hello Prasanth. The question you ask is a valid one & because the Scriptures are not entirely clear on all the events pertaining to Satan's origin & despatch, we can only formulate an opinion based on what the Scriptures do reveal. Therefore, we can get many opinions on this, even yours could be valid. So, as you've asked the question, let me give you my understanding using a timeline.

a. When God created all things in Heaven (He Himself being un-created), all heavenly beings, etc. were created in eternity past. This was before the creation of the worlds, of man & of other things for the Earth. In Heaven, God created beings such as cherubs, seraphs, beasts, etc., which all had a particular function before God & which constantly worshipped Him ( Ezekiel 10:1-22; Isaiah 6:1-8).

b. One cherub, which was "perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" ( Ezekiel 28:15), is reference to the one the Bible calls, Lucifer ( Isaiah 14:12). Although, the Ezekiel reference is directly to the King of Tyrus, the wording suggests that the spirit within the king is being addressed & described. Lucifer desired to sit in God's place ( Isaiah 14:12-14), therefore he was cast out of Heaven onto the Earth.

c. And Lucifer, also called Satan (in Book of Job), was there in readiness to deform God's perfect creation (man & woman) in the Garden of Eden, that they too might become like him, filled with evil & opposing God & all that is righteous & holy ( Genesis 3:1-19).

d. Though Satan was cast to the Earth, he still has access to Heaven, even as he presented himself to God with the other angels ( Job 1:6,7) to accuse Job (even as he does us: Revelation 12:10). Satan is not chained or confined to Hell now - he roams freely to deceive the nations ( Revelation 20:3) & will make his final thrust through the coming Anti-Christ, the personification of Satan, just as King Tyrus was. But he will one day be locked up for good ( Revelation 20:7-10).

Hi Glenn, I believe that Isaiah 11:6-10 speaks of the Millenium Kingdom of Christ on Earth. This is when Satan is locked away for 1,000 years (Revelation chapter 20), and he can no longer "deceive the nations" during this time. There will still be sinners (the nations) around, but not within the walls of Jerusalem where Christ the King sits & reigns ( Revelation 20:1-6) and the saved from the nations shall reign with Him.

It maybe at this time, with sin's force curtailed that the animal kingdom will also lose its fierceness (result of sin's corruption of all things), & the once ferocious animals will now co-habit with the more docile ones. But in Heaven, there is no Scripture to support the presence of animals in God's midst, apart from the heavenly beasts & beings. One's wishful thinking cannot add to what is already revealed to us.

Brother Sonny, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

Most people are taught by the traditions of man, very few study themselves and let the Spirit reveal the truth to them.

Romans 8:20 For the CREATURE (CREATION) was made SUBJECT TO VANITY (evil), not WILLINGLY, but by REASON of him who hath SUBJECTED the same (creation) in HOPE. (Becoming ONE with their CREATOR).

Ponder on the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

That knowledge exist TOGETHER, you can't have the KNOWLEDGE of good without also having the KNOWLEDGE of evil.

After partaking of this KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, God said, behold they (creation) have become like one of us to KNOW good and evil.

This KNOWLEDGE is necessary to become LIKE GOD.

John 17:21 That they (creation) ALL may BE ONE; as thou Father, art ONE IN ME, and I IN THEE, that thou also may be ONE IN US: that the world MAY BELIEVE that thou has SENT ME.

Colossians 1:27 ... this mystery....CHRIST IN YOU.....

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne (you are the throne of CHRIST)( Revelation 20:4) proceeded lighting, and thunder and voices: BURNING ( Isaiah 4:4) before the throne (you are the throne of CHRIST)( Revelation 20:4), which (lighting, thunder, voices) ARE the SEVEN Spirits of God (now in you).

Isaiah 11:2 And the (first is the) SPIRIT of the LORD (Father) shall rest upon him (Christ (in you)), the (second) spirit of WISDOM, and (the third spirit of) UNDERSTANDING, the (forth) spirit of COUNSEL and (the fifth spirit of) MIGHT, the (sixth) spirit of KNOWLEDGE and (the seventh spirit) of the FEAR of the Lord.

When we no longer have to SUFFER IN THE FLESH we will BE ONE WITH THE FATHER AND SON.

Have you considered: Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ?

While a comforting thought, that repeated phrase doesn't appear that way in the Bible. Paul didn't say that 100% of the time, when 100% of all people die, that instantly you are absent from the body and 100% of the time immediately with the Lord. Paul said he would 'rather' be present with the Lord. That doesn't mean everyone goes to be with the Lord and that doesn't mean that everyone is absent from their body upon death and won't wait for Jesus to return, and won't face any judgment. Matthew 12:36, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 - People are all judged on the same day. God bless...

This may actually be the differences in calendar years. I have recently been learning the differences in calendars. Todays USA calendar is different from the Jewish calendar, & even the Jewish calendar is different than originally. Hopefully that's helpful.

Proverbs 25:2

Proverbs 2:4

Matthew 13:11