Discuss Revelation 20 Page 5

Brother David0921:

You said when a believer dies his body goes to the grave to await the resurrection.

The word says unbelievers go to the grave to await the resurrection, they will be raised back in there bodies of flesh and blood.

Believers never die again, they have already died once with Christ.

Martha had the same belief as you, she said to Christ:

John 11:24 ..... I know he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Martha was a unbeliever.

Jesus SAID:

John 11:25 ..... I am the resurrection ....

John 11:26 Whosoever BELIEVETH IN ME shall NEVER DIE .....

Luke 20:36 Neither can they DIED ANYMORE:

When did they DIE? .... on the cross .....

for they are EQUAL to the angels; and are the children of God, being the CHILDREN of the RESURRECTION.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION, on such the SECOND DEATH has no power .....

God bless you

Hi again Jema,

You asked the question about who I'm referring to regarding the "just and the unjust". The just are the ones who have heard The Gospel of The Kingdom by: Jesus Christ, and believe, accept, repent from their sin, ask for forgiveness, receive baptism, and strive to pick up their cross and follow Jesus Christ.

The unjust would be the opposite; they hear the Gospel of the Kingdom and refuse and don't believe, they fail to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and continue to live a worldly life in sin. Or alternately they hear it, believe it initially, and then fall away back into their world of sin.

The bible reinforces and insures that "Everyone that ever lived on this earth," will receive their own final Judgement.

Revelation 20:12

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Important: How were they judged? They were judged every man according to their works!!!! What??? Works??? Something we all need to really think about

GBU

Hey S Spencer,

Not sure? You did not reply to anyone, but we have Jesus standing on Mount Zion just in front of Jerusalem with the 144000 firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. Firstfruits are the first that is sacrificed, this is just after or at Jesus's second coming.

This is after the ten nations destroy Babylon and whoever has worshiped the beast and taken his mark will drink of the wrath of God, so this wrath is after the second coming, and he/beast along with all who have worshiped him and taken his mark the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever as we see in Revelation 20:9.

When Jesus returns there will be no rest until all enemies are put under His feet. Am I off base?

Brother, not sure about your post help me understand.

God bless,

RLW

You are replying to a comment by "Bcjcta"

Jesus said Yes! Matthew 24

Starting from the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 c.e.

until he comes. Then there's God's Wrath coming against Satan the Devil (the Dragon, Serpent REV. chapter 12), Wild beast (Authorities, Kings, HORNS chapter 17,18), and False Religion (Babylon the Great, Prostitute Revelation 17:1-6; Revelation 20:1,10)

Revelation 17 spoken in illustration then the angel explains

Revelation 18 spoken in illustration how powerful Babylon the great is (False Religion:The Great City)

Revelation 22 spoken partly in illustration and then true talk at the end

Rather it's believed or not, the scriptures (The law passed from Heaven Psalm 83:18) has spoken. 2 Peter 1:20,21

Only time will tell

You are replying to a comment by "FaithfullCairaway" 2 days ago:

When we die do we automatically get to go to heaven or do we have to wait until the resurrection?

MountHoreb Reply: I personally can't recall at the moment Jesus giving any details

regarding The Apostles quick resurrection.

But We do have evidence of Jesus Resurrection Luke 24:46. when he died he was on the earth as an

invisible spirit Acts 1:3. Jesus as an invisible spirit ( john 4:24) has the ability to materialize into a human

Luke 24:3,5; Acts 1:9-11 . All angels Can transform themselves Luke 24:4; Luke 24:36

We also have an example of Apostle Stephen who was stoned by the infuriated High Priest.

he knew it meant his death for speaking the truth. notice what he said at Acts 7:54-60;

We have proof that Stephen appealed (prayed) to Jesus in Heaven Acts 7:59.

To no disappointment: Jehovah ( Psalm 83:18) Only selected or Chosen a few

to go to heaven according to Revelation 14:1,3. notice the scripture said "from Earth" (redeemed or taken from)

Not all are picked as presidents only one is. and there are those selected under him. Revelation 20:4,6

HOPE THE SCRIPTURES ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION: Psalm 37

Hi David0921,

Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2 John 5:24-29 Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.

Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 2 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.

I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.

God bless,

RLW

True, David0921, 'stagnation' would be too subtle a word to more fully describe how the Church at large treats God's Word & deals with sin & rebuke of erring ones. Unfortunately, from my limited experience, it seems that the larger the Church (congregation), the weaker they are in some of these areas we've referred to. The smaller, & probably the more exclusive (sectarian) of them, keep a much more rigid control on behavior & adherence to the Word. Yet, saying that, often their teachings also tend to be a little off-track. A few however, I believe, have found the right balance.

Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.

I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.

Part 2

The earth will have the fullness of harvest and life during the Millennium. The vast transfer of wealth to the Temple of God and administering ruling over cities and areas of the world may correspond with places we lived in our earlier life on earth; or made appropriate for the level of service or lack thereof which we lived using our gifts and resources for the Lord at that time.

At the end of the Millennium there is the last final rebellion where the number is as the "sand of the sea" ( Revelation 20:8). Largely; that would be a campaign warning both the deception of those descendants of those who survived Armageddon have because of wicked hearts ( Jeremiah 17:9) as well as Satan being a reality since he wouldn't be seen for the 1000 years. I am a firm believer in predestination as other verses make clear; so that as now we will just be a faithful witness so that His warnings will be recieved by those who are appointed to eternal life and rejected by those not in the Lamb's Book of Life. Again; it is obvious that the Gospel as stated now will not be necessary to prove somehow that Christ is Lord. Isaiah 65:20 indicates those who die at 100 are considered accursed; and we know that during the Millennium God will swiftly deal with rebellion. Those who do wish to go against the Lord will be waiting; perhaps for many hundreds of years for the final rebellion against God; somehow thinking that Satan himself can succeed even though he failed before. No doubt Satan will have some insane explanation of where he was the 1000 years; somehow convincing everyone that he has overcome being bound by his own effort and amassed enough strength to defeat God and His people. Perhaps having God's people close by on earth rather than heaven will convince everyone that he can defeat them suddenly. We know of course how that will end.

As for now; Ephesians 6 shows how we fight spiritual warfare ( 1 Peter 5:9). Evangelism and prayer are our current mission.

OLD TESTAMENT CONFIRMATION OF THE COVENANT

Part 1.

Abraham in Genesis 17:6 where it is recorded: "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee."

This is restated in verse 16 of the same chapter in relation to the promise of the son of Sarah: "And I will bless her, and moreover I will give thee a son of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be of her."

It is probable that there would be little question about the meaning of this covenant, if it did not involve eschatology as a whole. It would seem that the promises are simple and direct that David's posterity should continue forever and that his political kingdom would not end. However, even such a simple interpretation presents some immediate problems, as David himself seems to anticipate when he notes that the prophecy concerns a long time to come.

The principal difficulty, however, seems to be that the connotation of the Davidic covenant supports the premillennial interpretation of the Bible involving a future reign of Christ on earth as David's greater Son. This point of view is quite unacceptable to the amillenarian and therefore for them some interpretation of the Davidic covenant must be found other than that of a literal fulfillment. Generally speaking, amillenarians deny that this covenant has any decisive force on the millennial question and find its terms fulfilled in the present day with God's dealings with the church. Quite often the attempt is made to deny that anything in the Old Testament construes a premillennial eschatology and statements are made such as that of Louis Berkhof: "The only Scriptural basis for this theory [i.e., premillennialism] is Revelation 20:1-6, after an Old Testament content has been poured into it" (Systematic Theology,)

See part 2.

In brief the Amillennial view.

Dear all, you are dearly loved by the Lord Jesus Christ and have fellowship with Him by the Holy Spirit. and in Him we are brothers and sisters and family with God Himself. Never forget that on your walk here on Earth. There will come a day Revelation 20:11 which we would like to have a discussion about. That day will be a weird day. Here is plain text. But now brothers and sisters are here on Earth and we are witnesses to everyone we meet, right? Even though we long for Home, we know that the time will come when we will be allowed home. Thanks be to God and have all the praise for our work.



I woke up this morning singing to the Lord in my mouth and heart. It must have been a beautiful dream of peace and of the Lord Himself! May worship be with me all day, I pray, Amen. Then I opened the Bible in Hebrews 6:1 reading the beautiful words probably Paul has written, influenced, inspired by the Lord Himself. And as so many Christians struggle with. In the New Testament they are put together as a common thread. So we WILL understand them eventually.

The words you read here are to be read in the Spirit of revelation and wisdom so that you find out for yourselves what the rest of the words and sets in the chapter are about, is the truth we are searching for. The truth we can testify to for hungry people outside the scheme. And we are also starving for God. He will give us both food and water that live and that will go into the eternal dwellings! Go out in peace everyone and know that you are the bearer of a light, a truth, a love like no other on this planet. And it/are will last forever. Amen

Stay close to Him and His word. For remember we shall search and seek, and we shall find. And we must seek more to not be deprived of what we have. When we have received much from the Lord, He will give us more. All in His Glory, Hallelujah Amen. Love u all in Christ Jesus.

Hi Jema,

I may be different, but in my understanding of the Bible, I approach scripture simply and do not try to complicate things with preconceived ideas and let the Bible and the Holy Spirit do the interpretation. To me, a symbol will have a non-symbolic meaning.

A symbol represents something real, a real person, a real thing, or a historical event. When I read, I understand words in a literal sense first, then in a figurative or spiritual sense if the literal doesn't make sense.

Are the Christians now the Israel of God? Have the promises to Israel and the church merged into one common heritage? If so that brings up.

Will the promise of the land given to Abraham's seed, Isaac then Jacob be fulfilled? Isaiah 11:11-12 Ezekiel 37:21-25 Jeremiah 24:5-6 Ezekiel 34:11-12 Ezekiel 36:24-26 Hosea 3:4-5 Micah 4:6-7 Zechariah 13:8-9

Will Jesus the Messiah return and reign on the earth, with a rod of iron? Isaiah 2:1-4 Isaiah 11:1-4 Daniel 2:44 Daniel 7:14 Zechariah 14:1-4 Jeremiah 3:17 Revelation 2:26-27 Revelation 11:15 Revelation 12:5 Revelation 19:11-21.

Will there be a literal millennium during which Satan will not deceive the nations and Christ will reign on earth? Revelation 20:1-6 2 Timothy 2:11-12 Isaiah 2:2-4 Isaiah 11:5-16 Isaiah 65:19-25 Isaiah 51:4-5 Zechariah 14:16-21 Micah 4:1-4 Psalms 46:7-11 Matthew 19:28.

To me there are too many scriptures that are showing God has not replaced Israel with the Church. We see in Romans 11:24-27 a day when God will again turn to Israel, the day Jesus returns. Forgive me if some of the scriptures do not fit.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Gigi.

Part 2.

If the coming of the Lord and the gathering together of believers unto Him, and the Day of the Lord are all the same event as you stated,

Who's going to populate the Millenium if all the wicked is destroyed and the righteous raptured at this junction?

Who's these 2 groups described in Revelation 20:8-9?

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And (THEY) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth and compassed the camp of the (SAINTS) about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured (THEM).

Who are these saints?

Who are they that went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints?

If we would let the scripture tell us, verse 8 tells us who the saints are. (whom is as the sand of the sea.) This is an Old Testament idiom for Israel.

We know they're not the church they reign with Christ during this period and in Revelation 19:1-9 the Church has made herself ready.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

To hold that view one would have to suggest that the Church was raptured then returned, Satan released, the wicked resurrected to cause more harm for the bride to go thru it all over again.

You have to include the Millennium in your eschatology theology.

That's why some post trib people say were already in the millennium to get rid of this major issue.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-14.

Part 2.

Continuing with just a few of the Day of the Lord verses.

Zephaniah 1:15

Isaiah 13:9

Lamentations 2:1

Isaiah 13:13

Isaiah 51:22

Jeremiah 25:15

Revelation 16:19

Revelation 14:10

Revelation 16:1

Isaiah 63:1-6.

This is what Paul is telling them is not at hand. This is what we all agree on besides a few that the Church will not see.

However some see the Rapture in Revelation 20:4-6 sadly mistaking it for the Resurrection.

That would place the Church on the Earth during the wrath of the Lord that comes upon all the Earth.

When we take 2 Thessalonians 2:3



"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;

Paul gives them the sequence of events in chronological order of what happens "AFTER" that what he reminded them of previously in

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

That's why he opens up saying "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by "OUR" gathering together unto him," 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

Paul included them and himself in this gathering! So did they see the son of perdition? No.

We take 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with the following scriptures to pitch our viewpoint. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-15.

The son of perdition can't come while the light bearers is in the world. The Church! Who sits in the midst of the Church? Christ/His Holyspirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

God bless.

Dear Jim in peace I understand what you mean. And you have scriptures for what you say. It's something that's forgotten in your writing. Which is also very significant. A sleeping spirit has come over the believers in the worlds who adhere to these words you write. First of all. We are in the last hours. We can't get past that. Paul and the other apostles also understood this. They thought that they were going to be picked up at any time. Surely they were in the end when they died. The dead in Christ will first be resurrected. Thessalonians 4:16 After that, it is clear that we are to be uprooted we/thouse who live when He comes. Thessalonians 4:17 I don't understand that anyone can manage and change this into a romantic event. When He comes again, the world we know is over. The world of obstacles, the world of temptations, the world that He has destined for His time. Do we only know in terms that the world has only evil in it.

It is only when we can appear before the throne of grace with our hearts that we feel that God is near.

Then there will be a great apostasy. 2 Thessalonians 2:5-12. We must go to the Book of Revelation to move forward. But as many believers believe, nothing can be taken out of this book. I guess that's the whole Word of God. Revelation 20:1-6 or whole chapter. John he sees what is true.

Paul meant and encouraged the Thessalonians with the words he wrote to them. For when we die, all believers will go to Jesus. We are the ones who die in Christ. Revelation 19 and 20 chapters, one can get an understanding of it all. To the end, there will not be a single believer on earth. And let's hope, however, that the last man of faith has the Holy Spirit with him. We can't believe we're going to be taken away, not until the last man! There will be harder and bad times. Also in terms of richness and money. Finally, the day comes when we MUST receive a chip to go online, to pay bills, to buy food and mm.

Love you all. Stay close to the word of God

Ernie:

We have to understand the difference between taken and left.

Sin (unbelief) governs OUR FLESH, the wages of SIN (unbelief) is death, the "GIFT" of belief is eternal LIFE.

So man is either consumed by unbelief, and goes to the grave, to await the second resurrection: or he believes he and Christ were resurrected TOGETHER; becoming ONE NEW CREATION, and will NEVER SEE DEATH, because he has ALREADY DIED on the CROSS with CHRIST.

ONE will be TAKEN in DEATH, and go to the grave: ONE will be LEFT, never to SEE DEATH, dwelling in the presence of GOD.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they DIED ANYMORE (you DIED with Christ): for THEY (the one's LEFT, and will never see the grave) are EQUAL unto the angels (omnipresent, glorified bodies); and are the children of God (God can't die), being the children of (Christ's) RESURRECTION.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who hath PART in the first (Christ's) resurrection, on such the second death hath NO POWER ...

God Bless YOU!

Gigi.

You stated.

Yes, God will do this for Israel. ( We do not know exactly when He will do this, perhaps pre-tribulation or earlier or perhaps just after the tribulations starts. We just don't know. But dispensationalist have pigeon holed this into their system in ways that are not explicitly stated in Scripture as to when this will happen.

You seem to be unsure of your viewpoint but rebuke the dispensational viewpoint.

I said in my earlier posts it's after the tribulation and wrath of the Lord.

Here's one of many reasons why.

We know it's not before the Tribulation because the verses I mentioned.

Ezekiel 36:30. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, THAT YE SHALL RECEIVE NO MORE ( REPROACH ) OF FAMINE AMONG THE HEATHEN.

The Antichrist is going to bring REPROACH

AND AN IDOL! Ezekiel 36:25.

HERE'S WHERE ASSESSMENT GETS CONFUSING.

In your second statement you stated.

"

As far as Ezekiel,

This is a figurative prophecy of God regathering all of Israel (Both houses) by resurrecting them to life when Jesus returns after the Tribulation is over. Or perhaps figuratively re-establishing Israel to the land that they have long been away from...( AND WE DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHEN THAT WILL BE (the second option.)

Now I know you say the Millennium is in heaven, but your second opinion you suggest the restoration of Israel is after the tribulation here on earth.

Do you separate the restoration of Israel from the Millennium?

Earlier in my replies I stated to you the Millennium is here on earth pointing you to Revelation 20:6-8.

What makes this dispensational is Jeremiah says God is going to do something in a NEW WAY. ( In terms of Knowledge and virteous practice.) Jeremiah 31:33-34.

That's what I believe. .

God bless.

Hello Skyler. According to Revelation 20:11-15, hell (in Greek, Hades: the abode of the departed spirits), will not last forever. In that very last day when all are judged by God (at the Great White Throne judgement), all those who have died & not found written in the Book of Life, would be found guilty before God & cast into the Lake of Fire. Not only them, but "death & hell" as well, as there would no longer be any need for them, since sin will be no more as Satan himself will be consigned to that fiery Lake (v20) & with him all who have rejected God & His Son Jesus Christ. So, there will be a day when hell will be emptied out & removed altogether, but the Lake of Fire will exist for eternity in the final judgement of those who rejected God's Love.

And Jesus spoke of this final place in Luke 12:4,5: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Here the word for 'hell' in Greek, is 'geenna or gehenna', which is different from the (temporary Hell/Hades). And this place (Gehenna) is the final place of eternal torment; but those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life ( Revelation 21:27) will live eternally with God & His Son, with the host of Heaven, on the new Earth in the New Jerusalem where there will be no more sin & Satan to deceive mankind.

Hi Gigi.

I haven't been ignoring you, I just chose to hold off from reading replies until I could focus on answering rather than multitasking as I seem to can't get away from.

It's not your view that's the issue, It's the lack of knowledge and evidence you present when you rebuking

If you have been studying scripture on eschatology you share what you have learned out of scripture! Not "What you think was taught over the centuries. If one gives you a scripture such as Revelation 3:10 as a proven pret-rib verse Meaning kept OUT of that time!

(From the "HOUR" of temptation)

Should you say no it's not or deal with this verse with your own interpretation? You say "It don't say that, and then go on to say what you think others in the past had to say.

That's the issue I have with your rebuttals.

It's not one that helps. I've known for a while you were on opposite sides of many views and that isn't the problem. It's the way you enter the discussion.

When you do explain your view you leave holes that need to be filled with scripture!

For instance, you said you believe in the Millennium but it's not on earth, it's in Heaven.

Well you have A LOT of old testament scriptures you have to clarify!! A LOT!!

You said the rapture is at the end of the world when we are Judged. How does that work being that the Millennium is in Heaven? Please explain that because that's not even a post-trib view!!

How does it work?

How do you associate this with Revelation 20:7-8 ?

'And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations WHICH ARE IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH, Gog and MaGog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Also Revelation 20:9.

Do you understand why I say you should show why you hold these views that doesn't seem to line up.

I wish I had more time to engage. Hopefully soon I will.

Go's bless

Dear David, I do agree with much of what you say but differ in these ways:

Our physical bodies will be resurrected and then transformed into the bodies we will have for eternity. These bodies will be like Jesus' resurrected body, tangible, flesh and bones bodies that cannot decay, die, or possess any aspect of sin. These bodies are spiritual in that they are animated by the Holy Spirit and governed by Him. Our present bodies are carnal in that they are animated by the laws of nature and are governed by the sinful nature. I believe that Jesus is still fully human along with being fully God. He retains all of His humanity, body, soul, spirit as we will also.

I believe that unbelievers will be resurrected also in physical bodies of flesh and bones but they will not be transformed as ours are. They will be immortal, but will not be incorruptible and unable to sin like ours. These believers will live forever under the judgement of God in hell (the lake of fire) and the wrath of God will forever be upon them. I do not believe in annihilation as you do.

I am not sure about the resurrection and judgment happening at the same time for both believers and unbelievers, as in Revelation 20:5 it says that the unbelievers will not be resurrected one thousand years after the resurrection of the saints.

This seems to indicate a 1000 year reign of Jesus. But I think that this reign is in heaven. After that 1000 years, then the unjust will be resurrected and judged to spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil, the fallen angels, and the Nephillum.

Like you, I believe that Jesus is not going to set up a kingdom on earth, nor will this kingdom be for Israel with a renewed Levitical system of sacrifices and offerings. That system was ended with Christ's death (the tearing of the curtain that separated people from the presence of God in the Holy of Holies) and was demolished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. that made it so that there was not longer any temple

David0920. The anti-Christ certainly gives every resemblance of Satan himself. But to use those principles of Hermeneutics I hold to (that of literal, contextual, & Scripture with Scripture rules), I note in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (he is called the 'man of sinson of perdition'); and verse 9 (anti-Christ appears on the scene 'doing the works of Satan'). The wording & context itself suggests strongly that this is a person, not Satan, but given all the powers of that wicked one that virtually makes him Satan incarnate.

I agree, that essentially this is a battle in the spiritual realm, even as the enemy of our souls comes against Christ & all who've chosen not to obey Satan, but here we see a physical representation, if you will, of Satan; one raised for this final onslaught, "whom the Lord will destroy with the brightness of his coming", the one called "the beast & his false prophet" ( Revelation 19:20) finally cast into the Lake of Fire. And then "the dragon, that old serpent (of olden times), which is the Devil and Satan, will be bound a thousand years" ( Revelation 20:2). I believe these verses should convince us that three separate persons filled with evil are being revealed here but all hold to that foul & wicked spirit.

Page 3.

Therefore, I reiterate the three rules of Hermeneutics: a literal interpretation (unless a non-literal one is clearly called for); an historical, grammatical & contextual usage to understand the environment & language of that writing; & of course, using Scripture in other places within the Bible to help interpret the portion we're reading. Outside of this defined & confined meaning of 'biblical hermeneutics', we might open ourselves to erroneous understanding & teaching. If we believe that the Holy Spirit assists us in our understanding, then He would not disregard proper interpretative conventions, rather make that Scripture meaningful to us as well as applicable to our lives.

Then going back to our 'Lake of Fire' example, 'Fire' may be the common word that is seen, in say in 1 Kings 18:19-40 & in Revelation 20:14,15, but the whole context is very different between the two. Where 'fire' consumed the sacrifice on the altar in the one, & then in the other, 'fire' doesn't consume, but is eternal & tormenting (even as Jesus spoke of this in Mark 9:43-48). If we don't apply these rules, we can then make the Revelation account anything we want it to mean (or support our belief); such as being a fire of purification (purgatory), or only a spiritual (not actual) fire to demonstrate God's hatred of sin, but the soul be saved. If any of these (& other) interpretations are used, we in the first instance violate the proper understanding of the given Word & secondly, apply our own principles which ultimately makes the Word meaningless & worthless. The Holy Word is to be rigorously guarded from anything that would lead the reader to distraction & departure of the Truth.

Ok David0920, to take up the example of "God speaking about fire". Agreed, when God speaks of fire it inevitably applies to some sort of judgement from Him or a purifying work.

The point then, from your understanding, when 'Fire' is mentioned in Revelation 20:14,15, how do you interpret it? Is it a Fire of Judgement, or a Fire of eternal torment, or a Fire for all who've not obeyed God in faith and will be purified to be made acceptable & be saved, or only a spiritual Fire (i.e. not a literal Fire, therefore not an eternal one)? Sorry to put it to you in this way - I'm trying to establish what you mean by 'comparing Scripture with Scripture', because there are various interpretation methods used & many of them inconsistent with correct biblical hermeneutics, as you might have seen here, which has prompted you to raise this important matter.

And by this I mean, Fire is certainly shown in various portions of the Bible, but the word Fire can only be understood by the context it is found in (e.g. the fire that consumed bullock sacrifice in 1 Kings 18:19-40, is it the same fire in Revelation 20:14,15?). It may have exuded the same heat & power, but can we correlate it with anything other than the fire from God for the purpose of incinerating the sacrifice & nothing else? In such an example, we cannot make the two Scriptures fit together, though 'Fire' being the common word, nor can we force the meaning of other words to mean (or, apply) to other situations when the context is not the same.

Jimbob:

When did you become a NEW CREATION?

You were raised a NEW CREATION with Christ; HIS RESURRECTION, was also YOUR RESURRECTION.

That was 2000 years ago; but he has GIVEN us his words and spirit of TRUTH, to UNDERSTAND what he did FOR US; HIS GIFT TO US, 2000 years ago.

Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ and those WORKS HE DID, it's not future it's past. There is nothing left to be done BUT BELIEVE THE WORK'S of HIS (and your) CROSS.

Revelation 20:5 Blessed and Holy is he who hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION, it has ALREADY HAPPENED, your were saved before you were even born.

Your were saved from death 2000 years ago, your were predestined, by his resurrection, to be a SON of GOD, 2000 years ago.

There is no 7 year reign of a single antichrist, there has been 2000 years of antichrist reigning; because they don't believe God's Words: the WORK'S of GOD.

If you do't believe God's Words, you will die in your SIN, UNBELIEF, and have to be raise back to your unbelieving flesh and judged again by GOD'S WORDS.

John 16:8 And when he IS COME (Christ's second coming, as the spirit of TRUTH and spirit of PROPHECY, the HOLY GHOST) he will reprove the world of SIN, and of RIGHTEOUSNESS, and JUDGEMENT:

John 16:9 "OF SIN", because they believe not on me ----THE WORD(s).

When you close your eyes and take your last breath you are raptured at that instant into the presence of God.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who (Christ) only hath IMMORTALITY .....

1 Corinthians 15:54 ...this mortal SHALL HAVE PUT on IMMORTALITY ... HIS GIFT ...

John 17:22 ....that they may BE ONE, as we are ONE .....

Isaiah 27:12 ....and ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of (the promised) ISRAEL (Christ).

God Bless YOU!

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Appreciate your comments Jimbob & I'll take it from the top.

Revelation 19:7-9. The way I understand the relationship of Jesus Christ to His Church, is that we have already been joined to Him; Ephesians 5:31,32, "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." Paul believed that the Church was already joined to Christ - they were one - we were already married. So there's no second marriage planned - only His bride gathered together & being made ready for that great celebration, otherwise called, the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb". Where "the marriage of the Lamb is come" as seen in verse 7, it is in celebration, with the Supper, of the union that had already taken place when the Holy Spirit was given to every believer, joining him/her to Christ. And as His bride was arrayed in fine linen for the celebration, clearly depicts the pure, holy & acceptable state of Christ's spouse, the Church.

Yes, His Army, which includes His bride & probably other angels, do join Him in His descent to Earth. So the question (which you have answered), 'if the bride is with Christ, then where has the Marriage Supper taken place, in Heaven or on Earth?' Your understanding, is in Heaven, "The wedding has taken place and the Bride is now called the "wife". My sense is that the Supper is still to take place; why? The Bride was made ready & arrayed in 'marriage' outfits, Jesus & the Bride (& others) mount their stallions, & join Him in war; and of course, victory is theirs. What comes after this? Revelation 20:1-5 tell us that after Satan is bound in the pit, John saw thrones & those who died under the anti-Christ's pogrom. These saints arose from their graves & presumably Jesus & His army of saints joined them. This is the First Resurrection of Believers. (this paragraph continue onto Page 2.)

I'm sorry Ruby, I don't see the connection with what I wrote on this point of the "Lake of Fire" & what you wrote (quoting Scriptures), on the 'third part of....'. Revelation 8:7-12, for example, speaks about a third part of trees, grass, sea, fish, ships, rivers, waters, sun, moon & stars being affected at the opening of the seventh Seal, a time when the Wrath of God is poured upon the whole Earth.

Whereas the OT Scriptures you gave allude to Israel's captivity & suffering through it & their restoration (even a third part of them) when they will say "The LORD is my God". Israel is yet to be refined, as passing through God's Fire ( Zechariah 13:9), but it won't be through the Lake of Fire, reserved as the final judgement of eternal torment to all who reject God, where even death & hell will finally be destroyed ( Revelation 20:10-15).

The 'refining fires' of God can come to all us, according to His Will & Purposes for our lives, but at the end, only the Lake of Fire, unlike any other disciplinary measure, will be the ultimate ruin of wicked man & spirit. To make the Lake of Fire (& you haven't suggested this in your comment now), as a refining work to eventually restore all mankind to a state of full spiritual healing & bliss, is totally inconsistent to biblical teaching & correct hermeneutics.

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Mark 13:20 'elect', I believe applies to the elect among Israel, in its context of the chapter. But of course, after the Gospel is brought to the Gentiles, we too join the elect of God ( Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2), but Jesus directed His message to the Jews of His day.

Revelation 13:7,8: are these saints the ones living at the time of revelation of the beast on Earth, or are they the 'new believers' who have turned to Christ, rejecting the beast? And the Lamb's Book of Life, does it record all believers now & into the future, or only adds to the record those who are being saved by the Blood of the Lamb? Moot questions for sure.

Revelation 20:4-6: "This is the first resurrection". The Rapture of the Church (i.e. which includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ) & the resurrection of the tribulation saints are not the same. The Rapture is not a part of the First Resurrection (some have included them together, referring to it as two phases of the one). The Rapture is the catching away of believers to be with the Lord in Glory. The First Resurrection is for the tribulation saints who have died for Christ & will reign with Him through the Millennium. The scenarios are different hence cannot be the same. So, should not the Rapture then be called the First Resurrection? Apparently not, as that is the secret coming of Jesus to take away His Church from the Wrath to come. Blessings.

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Hi Jimbob & thank you for sharing this. I'll leave the matter of who the 'saints' are; I brought this up earlier. But to Revelation 19:7-9: in the context of the whole chapter, I read those verses differently to you. There was great praise going on in Heaven, with the words, "for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (v7)". Christ, the Lamb, was being made ready for His Wife (the Church) & the Voice from God's Throne told John to write, "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." Was this supper to take place forthwith, since the Bride was there & ready & waiting?

If I had to analyse it, I would say, No. The Bride was not altogether there - there were yet more to join them so that the marriage supper could take place. The announcement at verse 9, was the imminency of this marriage supper: the bride was already there (raptured saints?), but not the full number (tribulation saints?). Then in Revelation 19:11-21, we see the Lamb, not enjoying this time with His Bride, the Church, but going out to war against the beast, false prophet & those having the beast's mark on them - all being killed & consigned to the Lake of Fire. Then John was given the vision, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years ( Revelation 20:4). Here is the 'first resurrection' of those living in the tribulation days, who rejected the beast & his mark, & were beheaded for their love for Jesus & together with the saints from Heaven, share in that great Supper time.

Thank you David0920, I agree again with what you've shared here. And the examples you gave of Ruth & Lazarus do clearly illustrate the Gospel message or of our release of sin's deathly grip on our lives. Indeed, to other folk, there may be elements within those accounts that will leap out & speak to them in other ways, such as: faithfulness, devotion, singlemindedness, etc. To each one, the Spirit will speak & touch on those points from the Word that are most necessary for HIS Work to be carried out in their lives.

But also what interested me from your comment was your point 2, "We are to interpret Scripture with Scripture." Looking at that statement, who could disagree with you, as that is one of the primary ways of really understanding the biblical accounts, getting them in correct perspective & that which gives a fuller understanding of the Truth. But at the risk of offending some here, we often read comments such as a recent one: stating that the Lake of Fire "as being God Himself since God is a consuming fire" (here we get two Scriptures that reveal Truth: one referenced to Revelation 20:14 & the other to Hebrews 12:29). So now we get another example of someone showing his version of 'Scripture interpreting Scripture'. Is this then a case of Scripture interpreting Scripture? It is true, 'Fire' is common to both verses, but isn't the promise of an eternal Lake of Fire given to all "not found written in the book of life", rather than Fire being God Himself & by extension, God ridding the filth of all found there & finally saving them, as going through fire for cleansing? How we interpret this Truth can give totally opposite meanings which not only distorts the Word but leads the unlearned into confusion & a false understanding.

So this was the point I was making: that there is a correct method of comparing Scripture to Scripture, and I couldn't discern your position on this, or was it just a general post to all of us to correctly interpret the Bible?

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Revelation 13:11: of another beast. I understand this one to be representative of the False Prophet who is anti-Christ's lieutenant, if you will, speaking with the same authority & force as Satan himself. A deadly duo indeed. And we see this lieutenant again in Revelation 16:13 (all three are separate: Satan, anti-Christ, & the false prophet), Revelation 19:20 & Revelation 20:10. Yes, the dragon is Satan, but we can identify the beast & the false prophet as separate entities, coming from Satan.

And I agree with a lot of what you shared in your page 2, with the exception of course to the beast which speaks like a dragon; I don't believe this is Satan but the false prophet. And yes, it is in the first 42 months that the anti-Christ appears & causes this worldwide mayhem & God's Wrath being poured out during the second 42 months.

But our problem remains: when is the Rapture? Is it after the first 42 months, or before it? Again, my critical verses are 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. How we understand the meaning of the 'restrainer', will most likely place us in the pre or post-trib position. Paul's readers were confused & agitated that the Day of the Lord had begun (as taught by the false teachers). Paul assured them that the 'restrainer' hadn't been removed yet, allowing the man of sin to be revealed & assume his dictatorship. But the question, 'who is he who restrains? Thank you again Jimbob for this lively & inspiring discussion; I appreciate the time you've given to it.

Hi Barbara. In Revelation 20:14,15, we read about this event that is way into the future. Hell is 'Hades' in Greek, which essentially means, 'the abode of the departed spirits'. According to Revelation 20:11-13, those who stand before God in that final judgement, with the books about their lives opened, have all been dead. And hell will be emptied out of those spirits of men that hated God, their bodies, whether in the earth or in the sea will be raised to stand trial before God. All will be judged and condemned into an eternity of endless torment & horror. The graves will be emptied & hell will be emptied. There's no more need for them. All that is evil & representative of evil will forever be cast aside.

Then the beauty & holiness of the New heaven (sky), the New Earth & the New Jerusalem (Revelation chapter 21), will renew all that was lost when mankind decided to rebel against his Maker.