"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
Revelation 20:11
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Revelation 20:13
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
Matthew 19:17
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Hi Stephen. There are several verses that speak about this, but to understand, that unlike those who have rejected Christ and face an eternal judgement ( Revelation 20:11-15) at God's Throne, the one who is truly in Christ will have no part in that judgement, for our sins have been judged and forgiven at the Cross. Our judgement will be based on how we have lived this Spirit-filled, Christ-centered life and used the resources (gifts) and opportunities given by the Lord to be His sweet savor unto all ( 2 Corinthians 2:14-16).
So, those 'Judgement' verses that apply to believers can be found in: Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10, the 'Bema' Judgement; 1 Corinthians 9:24,25, aiming for the prize (Crowns) at the end of our race; 1 Thessalonians 5:9,10, we no longer face God's Wrath, whether in the Great Tribulation or before His Throne, for our sins have been judged; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, the product (or, works) resulting from our salvation will be put to the test: some will receive rewards, others will be saved but their worthless works perish and they lose out. Just a few verses that immediately come to mind that hopefully will help you.
I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses when you said JW's, but I assure you I am not. I understand many believe in the rapture of the Church, but I do not. I can't say that it's wrong; that would just lead to debate. We can share our understanding in hopes of inspiring each other to seek the truth.
Revelation is filled with images and visions given to John. In my understanding, if we look at Revelation 7, where people from the tribes of Israel and all nations that cannot be numbered are described, verses 14-17 refer to a time after everything is over, when God wipes away all our tears.
This is similar to what we see in Matthew 17 when Jesus took Peter, James, and John up on the mountain, where they saw Jesus' transfiguration. Jesus said it was a vision in verse 9. My understanding is that it was a vision because if Moses and Elijah were really there, Jesus would not be called the Firstfruits of those who slept, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20.
Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it discusses the Lord's coming and the first resurrection. Paul also touches on this in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. This coming is announced with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, as seen in Revelation 11.
In my view, in none of the verses regarding Jesus' second coming does it say He will carry the saints of the first resurrection back to heaven. My understanding is that all who are Christ's, when He returns, will be gathered to meet Him as He descends to earth, as described in Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, at the last trump, and Revelation 11:15-18. We will reign with Him on earth, Revelation 5:10.
There are only two resurrections of the dead in Scripture: the first, in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second, in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that Jesus does not return to heaven after He comes back; if He does, that would mean three resurrections.
Thanks for your reply-I think we're circling back to the heart of our earlier discussion.
First, on reigning with Christ: I agree Revelation 2:26-27 promises ruling authority to overcomers at Thyatira, and Revelation 20:4 shows martyrs from "all nations" sharing in Christ's rule. The question is not whether redeemed people reign, but who reigns where within God's revealed programs. Paul discloses a "one new man" ( Eph 2:15) called the Body of Christ, blessed "in heavenly places" and seated there now ( Eph 1:3; 2:6). Israel, by contrast, is promised an earthly kingdom under Messiah ( Isa 2:1-4; Jer 23:5-6; Matt 19:28; Acts 1:6; 3:19-21). Both realms are under the same Lord, but the stewardships and destinations differ ( 2 Tim 2:12; 1 Cor 6:2-3).
That leads to the Bride question. Dispensationally, the Body of Christ is not the Bride of Christ. In Scripture, bridal/marriage language is consistently tied to Israel and Zion:
"Thy Maker is thine husband" ( Isa 54:5).
"I will betroth thee unto me for ever" ( Hos 2:19-20).
"As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee" ( Isa 62:4-5).
In Revelation the identification becomes explicit: "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wifeand he shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem" ( Rev 21:9-10). The city bears Israel's fingerprints-twelve tribes on its gates and the twelve apostles on its foundations ( Rev 21:12-14). Moreover, the wife in Revelation 19:7-8 is arrayed in "fine linenthe righteous acts of saints," fitting the works-tested, kingdom saints who endure (cf. Matt 24:13; Rev 14:12), not the grace-standing, already-perfected righteousness imputed to the Body ( Rom 3:21-26; Phil 3:9).
Galatians 3:29 tells us, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." From a dispensational view, this does not mean the Church has taken Israel's earthly promises. The promise goes back to Genesis 12:3-"in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." In Christ, that blessing is extended to Jew and Gentile alike in the Body of Christ. Our inheritance is heavenly and spiritual ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20), not Israel's land or her kingdom program.
In Galatians 4:28-31 Paul explains that we, like Isaac, are children of promise, contrasted with Ishmael, born after the flesh. But this does not make the Body of Christ "spiritual Israel." Romans 11 shows clearly that Israel as a nation remains distinct and that God's covenant promises to them are not cancelled but postponed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The Church is called a "new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a separate creation altogether, with a heavenly hope.
Much confusion comes from calling the Church the Bride. Scripture never uses that title for the Body of Christ. The Bride belongs to Israel ( Isa. 62:4-5; Rev. 21:2). We are the Body, already seated with Christ in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Mixing these programs erases the difference between prophecy and the mystery.
Revelation 20:4 speaks of those beheaded in the Tribulation who will reign with Christ a thousand years. These are not the Church but saints who endure Israel's prophetic program. We, the Body, are delivered from wrath to come ( 1 Thess. 1:10) and caught up before that time ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Thus, rightly dividing the Word ( 2 Tim. 2:15) means recognizing God's two distinct programs: Israel's earthly kingdom and the Church's heavenly calling. Both will be fulfilled in their proper place and order, to the glory of Christ.
I have not studied dispensationalism. I know a few things, but not the depth of it. I know they support the distinction between Israel and the Church. You have on several occasions said, "but from a dispensational perspective." To me, this is saying interpretation of Scripture must align with dispensationalism. Maybe I am wrong about what you are saying. It must be from the Holy Spirit.
What I have studied the Church began with the people of Israel in Acts 2:41-47. There is only one Church and one body of Christ that includes both Israelites and Gentiles. God's grace provides salvation for Gentiles as well as Israel by faith in Jesus, the same gospel.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
We are fellow heirs of the kingdom of God, 2 Thessalonians 1:5. We will also reign with Christ here on earth, Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These are the words of Paul, Acts 28:30-31 3 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Your question: Why was there a need for Paul at all? Jealousy, Romans 11:11.
I agree, when Jesus returns, it will not be a secret, as all the Scriptures proclaim, it will be with the sound of the trumpet, the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 11:15. As you said, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16.
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection, will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6. Scripture does not say Jesus goes back to heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is comforting them that those who are asleep/dead in Christ would not be left out of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Nowhere in these verses does it say we are taken to heaven.
If we read and study Scriptures with preconceived assumptions, it fogs the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is about the return of Jesus and our gathering together unto Him on earth, at His coming. It says do not let man deceive you because Jesus will not return until two things happen. The falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed.
Revelation 19:20 is where the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 17:14, they are the ones in the first resurrection who are in the battle of Armageddon with Jesus, and in Revelation 20:4 are the ones in the first resurrection who are being judged at the judgment seat of Christ, here on earth.
How much time does Scripture give the beast? In Revelation 13, the beast, whom people call the antichrist, from the time he rises, he is only given 3.5 years, not 7 years, Revelation 13:5. This is after the war in heaven where Michael and his angels overcome and cast Satan and his angels down to earth, this is when the restraints are lifted, not the removal of the Church.
The beast is only given 42 months, which is 3.5 years, to make war against the saints and to overcome them, Revelation 13:7. If the church is removed, whom will he make war against? The resurrection of the dead is divided into two:
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection and will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6.
Resurrection for the rest of the dead, which is the second resurrection, and will happen after the 1000 years of Christ's reign, Revelation 20:7-15.
The ones in the first resurrection will reign with Christ, where, Daniel 7:27, 2 Timothy 2:12Revelation 20:6, Revelation 5:9-10. When Jesus returns, He does not go back to heaven.
We see in Revelation 20:4 thrones, and judgment was given to those in the first resurrection. This is on earth, and we see those who were beheaded and did not take the mark or worship the beast, and these lived and reigned with Christ on earth for the 1000 years.
last trumpet is the seventh trumpet, the same trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Jesus is coming to establish His kingdom on this earth.
It should be understood that the Bible clearly states that there are two comings of Jesus.
He came to die for the sins of mankind: this has been fulfilled.
Second Coming: coming to establish the kingdom of God/heaven. This is yet to happen. The resurrection of the righteous dead only happens at the second coming of Christ.
The seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, announces the second coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom on this Earth. We see this in Revelation 11:15-18, which says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
It also says the righteous, both dead and alive, are judged and rewarded, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. We see this after the battle of Armageddon, Revelation 20:4.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the word meet is the Greek word apantseis, which is found three times in the New Testament. It means a decisive going out to greet an arriving person of importance, honoring and welcoming them back. We will be meeting Jesus in the air, welcoming Him back to set up the kingdom, not going to heaven.
I could go on, but I hope this is enough to show my understanding. I do thank you for your time and discussion. We must keep our eyes and ears open so that we may see and hear the truth. If we have preconceived ideas, it gives us eyes to see, and see not, and ears to hear, and hear not. We, as the body of Christ, should inspire each other to pray and study God's word for the truth.
I understand many believe in the rapture, some say pre, mid, or post. In all three views, we are taken to heaven. I have not found any Scripture that explicitly states we are taken to heaven; it is an assumption, and it must be read where it is not written. I don't see the bride mentioned in the rapture doctrine; that's another discussion.
I see the coming of Jesus not as a secret event, but as one the world will witness. This is supported by Scripture: Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 19:11-16. This event occurs after the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, Revelation 11:15. Then, we see the angel summoning the birds for the battle of Armageddon.
The ones in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6, will be with Jesus during the battle, Revelation 17:12-14. Afterward, we observe the judgment of those in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4.
A thought, over the past nearly 2000 years, believers in Christ, the body of Christ, the Church have faced beheading, burning at the stake, being placed on poles soaked in oil, lit as lamps along roads, among other horrible deaths. Why would the last of the Church be spared? We have been told we will face much tribulation, and if we endure, Matthew 24:9-13. The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
That could be true however there is a unique difference in the way Christ is presented to Lordship over the Church and Lordship in the Kingdom here on earth.
Christ Lordship is over our hearts without any written articles on tablets.
In the Kingdom Christ is ruling with a rod of iron.
In Revelation 12:5 we see the Israel presented as the woman and her children who shall rule the nations with a rod of iron. Christ.
The Church is never identified as the nations or inhabitants of the earth.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 seems to fit Christ ruling here on earth with a rod of iron as presented in other scriptures and that is a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
Other passages;
Revelation 2:27.
Revelation 19:15.
Isaiah 65:16-25 has much to say about this economy.
This echoes Psalms 2:6-9.
"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Scripture says the Church shall reign with Christ.
Revelation 20:6.
2 Timothy 2:12.
Revelation 5:10.
Luke 22:28-30.
The reigning is not a present reality but a future hope for believers.
Permit me to follow the example of Elihu and act in accordance with his statement in Job 32:21-22.
In a previous comment, you emphasized the importance of properly considering a matter before speaking, so as not to appear as "fools." I wonder if perhaps the claim that Christ will reign with the saints on earth was rebutted too quickly, without sufficient consideration.
The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 14:2-3 are described as the firstfruits of those saved in Israel after the rapture, as verse 14 clarifies. However, this does not imply that Christ will not return to earth with them. They will return together with all who have inherited salvation, as seen in Revelation 21:1-3.
It is also important to note that the New Jerusalem, symbolically represented as the Bride, represents the spiritual Church or body of Christ. This is supported in Hebrews 12:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 2:19-22, 1 Peter 2:5, and 1 Corinthians 3:9. Only those who have received the Spirit of Christ are considered part of the Church of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:13, Romans 8:9).
This Church will return to earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years, as indicated in Revelation 20:4, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15.
As Elihu said in Job 34:22: "If you have understanding, hear this; listen to the voice of my words."
Please note that my words are not intended as insults or to cause offense, for that would not reflect the love that the Lord Jesus expects from us. Rather, my intention is to encourage careful consideration of matters from a biblical perspective, rather than relying solely on worldly opinion. As the Lord Jesus said, many teach the traditions of men as doctrine, and as Paul says, we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.
I suppose this what you call "short season" not coming yet. First, Israel must win over Gog and Magog siege ( Ezekiel 39) , then Two Witnesses must appear in Jerusalem, then Harlot City judged and burned and Two Witnesses is killed by Satan , when he rises. It is Seventh Trumpet and whole world will hear it , despite corrupted global media. It will be extremely loud. Thanks.
Satan has not yet been confined in the bottomless pit, so Revelation 20:3 has not occurred. This will happen after Jesus returns, the first resurrection, the Battle of Armageddon, and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. You can read Revelation 17, 18, 19, and Revelation 20:1-6.
The short season you said was in Revelation 20:6 may be referring to Revelation 12:7-12. In Revelation 12:7-9, Satan and his angels are cast down to earth with no more access to heaven. Revelation 12:12 states he knows he has only a short time.
My understanding is that this short time lasts three and a half years, also 42 months or 1260 days, often referenced in Revelation as the period of great tribulation involving Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. We also see reference to it in Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24, and Revelation 7:14. I hope this helps.
Revelation and the prophecies about the end days require study and prayer; many different interpretations exist.
Has revelation 20:3 Taken place yet ??3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4
Hello Aleicia. I think that you were looking at and referring to Revelation chapters 2 and 3, where Jesus speaks concerning those seven Church congregations in Asia Minor (now modern Turkey). To each of them, Jesus says, "I know thy works" and then goes on in praise and condemnation of most of them. And later in the Book ( Revelation 20:11-13) we see God's Judgement pronounced upon those who rejected God and His Son, revealed in "the books" that declared "their works", which of course were works that resulted from their sinful condition, of no eternal value - only harsh judgement.
But in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, when Jesus speaks about those Churches, these of course are Christians who have truly repented and followed Jesus in their lives and the works they produced were the acts resulting from their faith. So, they were in the most part commended (except the Laodiceans) in their faith & works therefrom, but failed in some other areas. And what this means to us is, what we do in our new lives that God has given us through His Son, must be acts that are produced from a new, active, vibrant faith in God. And this faith can only come from Him, by His Spirit in us. If anything that is done apart from this, however good & useful that might be, are not the result of 'faith in action', or to say it in another way, 'our acts have been done from motives other than Holy Spirit inspired and generated'. Jesus was looking for such works in them (led by the Spirit) and in us as well and we need to be alert and careful that we allow God's Spirit to govern every area of our lives. At the Bema Seat (the judgement of believers' works: 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) is the only judgement that believers will face - and this judgement is not whether we're saved or not (our sins were judged at the Cross), but how we have lived our lives & the works produced from it.
I see Revelation 19:8 as describing the bride of Christ (the church). And the bride is given fine linen to wear, the same attire spoken of in Verse 14. So, my understanding is that the armies (emphasis on plural) in Verse 14 consists of both angels and saints, with the saints being the ones arrayed in fine linen.
Zechariah 14:5 indicates that when the Lord comes, all the saints will come with Him. In Matthew 24:31, which you referenced, the elect being gathered are the Jews, not the church.
To answer your question asking who they are in Revelation 20:4-6, I would say that they are the ones who were still here after the rapture, and during the tribulation they were persuaded by the angelic preaching of the gospel and the gospel being preached by the 144,000 not to take the mark of the beast. They will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast or taking the mark.
From what I see, Revelation 20:4-6 is not talking about the church. There will be some who will turn to Christ during the tribulation period, and they will be saved.
Anyways, I'm sure we are once again in disagreement on this subject, but it is still nice to be able to share our understanding with each other. May the Lord continue to keep us until the day of redemption, and may He continue to give us a hunger for His word in order that we might grow in His grace and knowledge.
If I may, the armies that come from heaven when Jesus returns are angels, as mentioned in Matthew 13:39, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:31, Matthew 26:53, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and others.
If the Church, the dead in Christ, are resurrected and those still living are changed and taken to heaven, raptured before Jesus returns. When Jesus does return, who are they in Revelation 20:4-6? The judgment seat of Christ includes some who are here during the time of the beast. That would make another resurrection.
A separate rapture before the second coming would mean two resurrections before the white throne judgment. I can't find that in Scripture. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ must be the same event.
Revelation is difficult to discuss briefly, and I may have stumbled.
I tried to explain that Revelation isn't arranged in order like other books in the Bible, and I didn't do a good job. Jesus doesn't return until the seventh trumpet, the last trump, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Revelation 10:7.
I'm sorry, but I don't know much about Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillennialism. I haven't studied them, and I don't care for titles.
My understanding is that Jesus returns in Revelation 19:11-16, and the saints are resurrected, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 20:4-6.
This is when the great tribulation ends, and God's wrath is poured out, Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:1-17.
Next comes the battle of Armageddon, Revelation 19:17-21 which those in the first resurrection will participate, Revelation 17:14. Their Judgement is shown in Revelation 20:4. The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, and those who worshiped the beast and had the mark are either cast in then or during the white throne judgment, but their verdict was already given, Revelation 14:9-10.
Then the kingdom will be established, and there will be people left in the nations whom Satan, after he is released, will deceive.
The land of Israel will be restored, Ezekiel 11:17, Jeremiah 23:5-6, and members of the tribes of Israel that will be gathered from all the nations will inhabit that land during the 1000 years, Jeremiah 29:14. Other nations will, as seen in Zechariah 14:16-20, witness Jesus ruling with a rod of iron; there are other Scriptures about this time.
1 "Can you tell me how you interpret the events after the tribulation period, on into the Millennium, when Satan is chained and when he is loosed?"
I will do my best to show my understanding of your questions. My study is simple, and I rely on the Bible for interpretation. I use Word Search, a concordance, and my Bible provides other verses that cross-reference a word or phrase throughout Scripture.
The book of Revelation is not in chronological order. We see in Revelation 1:7, that when He comes in the clouds, every eye will see Him. Revelation 6:12-17 shows a vision given to John after the Sixth Seal, revealing the signs of Jesus' coming. Cross-references include Joel 2:10-11, 30-31, Matthew 24, and others.
In Revelation 11:15-19, the seventh trumpet, or the last trumpet, signals the coming of Jesus, ending the tribulation and beginning God's wrath. Revelation 14 combines visions that are not in order; we see Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144000, which would occur after Revelation 19:11-16. We know this because, when He returns, His feet will land on the Mount of Olives, as described in Zechariah 14:4.
Revelation 14:6-7 describes the angel preaching the everlasting gospel, which must occur near the end of the tribulation. The announcement of Babylon's fall is seen in chapters 17 and 18. Revelation 14:9-11 states the fate of those who worship the beast, take its mark, and follow the beast and the false prophet. This is carried out in Revelation 19:20-21.
Revelation 14:12-13 declares, "Blessed are those who die in the Lord from henceforth," even as the tribulation continues. My understanding of Revelation 14:14-16, which covers the harvest and the first resurrection, is supported by passages like Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6, and Matthew 24:29-31. Revelation 14:17-20 describes the battle of Armageddon, with related references in Revelation 19:17-21, Ezekiel 39:17-21, and Luke 17:37.
In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit, where he will be held so he cannot deceive the nations anymore. This will last for a thousand years. The Beast, the false prophet, and I assume all the fallen angels are bathing in the lake of fire. I am unsure about the fallen angels because Scripture does not specify, but we know that it is their destiny.
Also, tell me who populates the Millennium?
As we read Revelation, considering the Great Tribulation and God's wrath, Earth has sustained massive damage. However, the only ones cast into the lake of fire are those living or killed who worshiped the beast and received his mark.
That leaves those in Christ who are in the first resurrection, and nations of people who neither worshiped the beast nor received his mark, nor believed in Jesus. This may have been after the fullness of the Gentiles, and they may have missed the opportunity.
The land of Israel will be restored, Ezekiel 11:17, Jeremiah 23:5-6, and members of the tribes of Israel that will be gathered from all the nations will inhabit that land during the 1000 years, Jeremiah 29:14. Other nations will, as seen in Zechariah 14:16-20, witness Jesus ruling with a rod of iron; there are other Scriptures about this time.
Later, after 1000 years, Satan gathers a multitude as numerous as the sands of the sea to encamp against the camp of the saints in Jerusalem. Then fire consumes them, and Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire. Then comes the final Judgment of the rest of the dead.
Hey brother, I hope you can understand this. I tried to keep it brief because I didn't want to send a big message, given the site today. I also tried not to be too long-winded out of consideration for others. Any questions, let me know. I may have bumbled trying to keep it short.
My understanding of the coming of Jesus, the first resurrection, and the gathering of saints to Him, which I see as a one-time event. I understand many may disagree, but I feel in my heart that the teaching of the rapture as a separate event may be incorrect. We must understand that in Revelation, the events recorded in the book are not a linear timeline.
Jesus returns only once, which is what Paul warns about. In 2 Timothy 2:16-18, I believe Paul is addressing the same issue he talks about in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. Paul says, Let no man deceive you by any means, and he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. He states that that day will not come unless there is a falling away first, meaning apostasy or a turning away from faith, and the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, which signifies destruction.
Both of these events must happen before Jesus returns. Just as back then, false teachings about the timing and details of Jesus' return, as I feel the idea of a separate rapture, many are expecting something that is not going to happen, and when it becomes evident to those still here, that moment will lead to the falling away. I feel great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
When Jesus returns, we observe the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, and the judgment of those in the first resurrection in Revelation 19:11 through Revelation 20:4-6. This judgment includes those who did not worship the beast or take his mark. This proves it is after the great tribulation. Those who fought with Jesus in this battle are the chosen and faithful, Revelation 17:14. These are the ones in the first resurrection; they will reign with Jesus on earth, not in heaven.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion that I feel is very important and will continue to study. It is up to each of us to pray in search of the truth.
I thought the discussion was about both the Rapture and the 1000-year reign of Jesus. I understand there are different interpretations, but I believe it will be an actual earthly kingdom with Israel restored, with Jesus sitting on the throne of David. We see the beginning in Revelation 20:1-4.
All who are in the first resurrection will be judged; these will reign with Jesus as king in Israel over the entire world. Regarding Isaiah 2:2-5, I am not sure if it refers to the whole world or just the restored land of Israel, where animals experience peace and harmony, like when they were first created.
We see the gathering and restoration of the remnant of the house of Israel within the boundaries of the land God promised Abraham, as mentioned in Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 11. We also see references in Jeremiah 23:5-6, Ezekiel 37:21-28, Zechariah 9:9, Daniel 2:44, and Matthew 19:28.
Thank you, brother. I could list more, but I believe these passages demonstrate that this kingdom and the rule of Jesus will be on this earth, and He will govern with a rod of iron, as in Revelation 12:5, during the time Satan is bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years.
Gigi you said what you are wanting from dispensationalists that cite Scripture to prove their beliefs as being correct.
Gigi if we don't agree in the scriptures or understand the opposing point of view then scripture is not going to clear this up.
You should be confident and proud to expound on your Scriptural support.
Gigi a few years back you said you believed the Millennial reign of Christ was in Heaven "with no Scriptural support " and then I showed you Revelation 20:6-8 and that's all it took for you to change your mind!
Then another brother gave you a alternative idea and you ran with that saying you would accept anything as an alternative other than the way dispensationalists interpret scripture.
I suppose after further studying other doctrinal viewpoints you said you fall in the Amillennial category. (I found that interesting because so did Earl Bowman and Alex in the way they spiritualize the text.)
Gigi you hold to the least definitive way of interpreting scripture but yet you want definitive answers!
They don't believe in an actual Millennial reign of Christ here on earth.
You finally admitted you had to do more studying on eschatology and left the discussion without even giving any scripture supporting your views.
That is why I ask you to present your own definitive scriptures that supports your beliefs.
This is where my accusations come from saying that you study Christianity but not scripture.
What is the Rapture? It is a doctrine that began in the 1800s and is widely accepted today. The belief in it is so strong that many see it as a promise, a guarantee, that the Church will be taken to heaven and escape the great tribulation, which is often confused with the wrath of God. But is it true or just a deception? Isn't the rapture a resurrection? We see there are only two resurrections, in Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:12-13, separated by a thousand years.
Nowhere is the Church shown in heaven; Revelation 19:7-9 is not about the Church. It describes the bride of Christ adorned with the righteousness of the saints. The marriage and the marriage supper will not occur until Revelation 21:1-2, which takes place after the new heaven and new earth. The angel shows John the bride, the Lamb's wife, who is not the Church, as stated in Revelation 21:9-11.
We must distinguish between the great tribulation and the wrath of God; they are not the same. Tribulation refers to the suffering and persecution faced by believers. We see in Revelation 12:12, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath. This is when he gives power to the beast, and the great tribulation begins. The short time Satan believed he had was 3.5 years, not seven. Revelation 13:5 mentions 42 months, which is 1260 days, or 3.5 years. The prophecy in Daniel 9 is all about the Messiah, Jesus, and the time Israel has.
We do not see the wrath of God and the Lamb until after the sixth seal, in Revelation 6:12-17. This is when Jesus returns to earth, the earth is round, and when Jesus returns, it will be as in Mathew 24:29-31. We will then meet Him in the air, and we all come down together.
c) Where does Scripture teach that ethnic Israel will inherit eternally an earthly life and the Church will inherit a heavenly life?
I can't speak for those who might believe this, since I don't see it this way. But I understand that both believing Israel and believing Gentile will share together eternally with Jesus in His 1000 year reign ( Revelation 20:4-6), & then at some future date, in the New heavens & New Earth ( Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:12,13).
d) Where does Scripture teach that the church came into being because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah?
The Scripture that comes to mind is Acts 13:46-48, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". And Paul also shared this in Romans 11:11. I realize that these accounts speak generally of the Jews who stood against the message of the Cross; some no doubt, would have believed and brought into the Church. To Page 3.
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
God will judge personal sin. THE "LEFT HAND PROPLE"
The Bible is clear that individuals who practice sin will be judged. For example, there's a large laundry list of sin in Romans 1:29-31.
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,"
(31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
Paul clearly states that God will judge those who practice those things.
Romans 2:2
"But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Romans 2:3
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This portion of scripture
also gives us a list of those who practice sins and what will become of them.
Likewise, Hebrews tells us God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
To top it all off, Jesus himself says the one who rejects Him will be judged.
John 12:48
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
Revelation 20:11
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Revelation 20:13
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
Matthew 19:17
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Blessings
So, those 'Judgement' verses that apply to believers can be found in: Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10, the 'Bema' Judgement; 1 Corinthians 9:24,25, aiming for the prize (Crowns) at the end of our race; 1 Thessalonians 5:9,10, we no longer face God's Wrath, whether in the Great Tribulation or before His Throne, for our sins have been judged; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, the product (or, works) resulting from our salvation will be put to the test: some will receive rewards, others will be saved but their worthless works perish and they lose out. Just a few verses that immediately come to mind that hopefully will help you.
I assume you mean Jehovah's Witnesses when you said JW's, but I assure you I am not. I understand many believe in the rapture of the Church, but I do not. I can't say that it's wrong; that would just lead to debate. We can share our understanding in hopes of inspiring each other to seek the truth.
Revelation is filled with images and visions given to John. In my understanding, if we look at Revelation 7, where people from the tribes of Israel and all nations that cannot be numbered are described, verses 14-17 refer to a time after everything is over, when God wipes away all our tears.
This is similar to what we see in Matthew 17 when Jesus took Peter, James, and John up on the mountain, where they saw Jesus' transfiguration. Jesus said it was a vision in verse 9. My understanding is that it was a vision because if Moses and Elijah were really there, Jesus would not be called the Firstfruits of those who slept, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20.
Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 it discusses the Lord's coming and the first resurrection. Paul also touches on this in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. This coming is announced with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God, as seen in Revelation 11.
In my view, in none of the verses regarding Jesus' second coming does it say He will carry the saints of the first resurrection back to heaven. My understanding is that all who are Christ's, when He returns, will be gathered to meet Him as He descends to earth, as described in Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:52, at the last trump, and Revelation 11:15-18. We will reign with Him on earth, Revelation 5:10.
There are only two resurrections of the dead in Scripture: the first, in Revelation 20:4-6, and the second, in Revelation 20:11-15. My understanding is that Jesus does not return to heaven after He comes back; if He does, that would mean three resurrections.
God bless,
RLW
First, on reigning with Christ: I agree Revelation 2:26-27 promises ruling authority to overcomers at Thyatira, and Revelation 20:4 shows martyrs from "all nations" sharing in Christ's rule. The question is not whether redeemed people reign, but who reigns where within God's revealed programs. Paul discloses a "one new man" ( Eph 2:15) called the Body of Christ, blessed "in heavenly places" and seated there now ( Eph 1:3; 2:6). Israel, by contrast, is promised an earthly kingdom under Messiah ( Isa 2:1-4; Jer 23:5-6; Matt 19:28; Acts 1:6; 3:19-21). Both realms are under the same Lord, but the stewardships and destinations differ ( 2 Tim 2:12; 1 Cor 6:2-3).
That leads to the Bride question. Dispensationally, the Body of Christ is not the Bride of Christ. In Scripture, bridal/marriage language is consistently tied to Israel and Zion:
"Thy Maker is thine husband" ( Isa 54:5).
"I will betroth thee unto me for ever" ( Hos 2:19-20).
"As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee" ( Isa 62:4-5).
In Revelation the identification becomes explicit: "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wifeand he shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem" ( Rev 21:9-10). The city bears Israel's fingerprints-twelve tribes on its gates and the twelve apostles on its foundations ( Rev 21:12-14). Moreover, the wife in Revelation 19:7-8 is arrayed in "fine linenthe righteous acts of saints," fitting the works-tested, kingdom saints who endure (cf. Matt 24:13; Rev 14:12), not the grace-standing, already-perfected righteousness imputed to the Body ( Rom 3:21-26; Phil 3:9).
see pg2
Galatians 3:29 tells us, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." From a dispensational view, this does not mean the Church has taken Israel's earthly promises. The promise goes back to Genesis 12:3-"in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." In Christ, that blessing is extended to Jew and Gentile alike in the Body of Christ. Our inheritance is heavenly and spiritual ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20), not Israel's land or her kingdom program.
In Galatians 4:28-31 Paul explains that we, like Isaac, are children of promise, contrasted with Ishmael, born after the flesh. But this does not make the Body of Christ "spiritual Israel." Romans 11 shows clearly that Israel as a nation remains distinct and that God's covenant promises to them are not cancelled but postponed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The Church is called a "new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a separate creation altogether, with a heavenly hope.
Much confusion comes from calling the Church the Bride. Scripture never uses that title for the Body of Christ. The Bride belongs to Israel ( Isa. 62:4-5; Rev. 21:2). We are the Body, already seated with Christ in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Mixing these programs erases the difference between prophecy and the mystery.
Revelation 20:4 speaks of those beheaded in the Tribulation who will reign with Christ a thousand years. These are not the Church but saints who endure Israel's prophetic program. We, the Body, are delivered from wrath to come ( 1 Thess. 1:10) and caught up before that time ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Thus, rightly dividing the Word ( 2 Tim. 2:15) means recognizing God's two distinct programs: Israel's earthly kingdom and the Church's heavenly calling. Both will be fulfilled in their proper place and order, to the glory of Christ.
This is not hard to understand!
G&P
I have not studied dispensationalism. I know a few things, but not the depth of it. I know they support the distinction between Israel and the Church. You have on several occasions said, "but from a dispensational perspective." To me, this is saying interpretation of Scripture must align with dispensationalism. Maybe I am wrong about what you are saying. It must be from the Holy Spirit.
What I have studied the Church began with the people of Israel in Acts 2:41-47. There is only one Church and one body of Christ that includes both Israelites and Gentiles. God's grace provides salvation for Gentiles as well as Israel by faith in Jesus, the same gospel.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
We are fellow heirs of the kingdom of God, 2 Thessalonians 1:5. We will also reign with Christ here on earth, Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These are the words of Paul, Acts 28:30-31 3 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Your question: Why was there a need for Paul at all? Jealousy, Romans 11:11.
God bless,
RLW
I agree, when Jesus returns, it will not be a secret, as all the Scriptures proclaim, it will be with the sound of the trumpet, the last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 11:15. As you said, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:11-16.
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection, will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6. Scripture does not say Jesus goes back to heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul is comforting them that those who are asleep/dead in Christ would not be left out of the return of Christ and the resurrection. Nowhere in these verses does it say we are taken to heaven.
If we read and study Scriptures with preconceived assumptions, it fogs the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is about the return of Jesus and our gathering together unto Him on earth, at His coming. It says do not let man deceive you because Jesus will not return until two things happen. The falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed.
Revelation 19:20 is where the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. In Revelation 17:14, they are the ones in the first resurrection who are in the battle of Armageddon with Jesus, and in Revelation 20:4 are the ones in the first resurrection who are being judged at the judgment seat of Christ, here on earth.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2
How much time does Scripture give the beast? In Revelation 13, the beast, whom people call the antichrist, from the time he rises, he is only given 3.5 years, not 7 years, Revelation 13:5. This is after the war in heaven where Michael and his angels overcome and cast Satan and his angels down to earth, this is when the restraints are lifted, not the removal of the Church.
The beast is only given 42 months, which is 3.5 years, to make war against the saints and to overcome them, Revelation 13:7. If the church is removed, whom will he make war against? The resurrection of the dead is divided into two:
The resurrection of the righteous, which is the first resurrection and will happen at Christ's return, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6.
Resurrection for the rest of the dead, which is the second resurrection, and will happen after the 1000 years of Christ's reign, Revelation 20:7-15.
The ones in the first resurrection will reign with Christ, where, Daniel 7:27, 2 Timothy 2:12 Revelation 20:6, Revelation 5:9-10. When Jesus returns, He does not go back to heaven.
We see in Revelation 20:4 thrones, and judgment was given to those in the first resurrection. This is on earth, and we see those who were beheaded and did not take the mark or worship the beast, and these lived and reigned with Christ on earth for the 1000 years.
last trumpet is the seventh trumpet, the same trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Jesus is coming to establish His kingdom on this earth.
It should be understood that the Bible clearly states that there are two comings of Jesus.
He came to die for the sins of mankind: this has been fulfilled.
Second Coming: coming to establish the kingdom of God/heaven. This is yet to happen. The resurrection of the righteous dead only happens at the second coming of Christ.
See part 3.
Part 3
The seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, announces the second coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom on this Earth. We see this in Revelation 11:15-18, which says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
It also says the righteous, both dead and alive, are judged and rewarded, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. We see this after the battle of Armageddon, Revelation 20:4.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the word meet is the Greek word apantseis, which is found three times in the New Testament. It means a decisive going out to greet an arriving person of importance, honoring and welcoming them back. We will be meeting Jesus in the air, welcoming Him back to set up the kingdom, not going to heaven.
I could go on, but I hope this is enough to show my understanding. I do thank you for your time and discussion. We must keep our eyes and ears open so that we may see and hear the truth. If we have preconceived ideas, it gives us eyes to see, and see not, and ears to hear, and hear not. We, as the body of Christ, should inspire each other to pray and study God's word for the truth.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, this is my understanding.
I understand many believe in the rapture, some say pre, mid, or post. In all three views, we are taken to heaven. I have not found any Scripture that explicitly states we are taken to heaven; it is an assumption, and it must be read where it is not written. I don't see the bride mentioned in the rapture doctrine; that's another discussion.
I see the coming of Jesus not as a secret event, but as one the world will witness. This is supported by Scripture: Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 19:11-16. This event occurs after the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, Revelation 11:15. Then, we see the angel summoning the birds for the battle of Armageddon.
The ones in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6, will be with Jesus during the battle, Revelation 17:12-14. Afterward, we observe the judgment of those in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4.
A thought, over the past nearly 2000 years, believers in Christ, the body of Christ, the Church have faced beheading, burning at the stake, being placed on poles soaked in oil, lit as lamps along roads, among other horrible deaths. Why would the last of the Church be spared? We have been told we will face much tribulation, and if we endure, Matthew 24:9-13. The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
God bless,
RLW
That could be true however there is a unique difference in the way Christ is presented to Lordship over the Church and Lordship in the Kingdom here on earth.
Christ Lordship is over our hearts without any written articles on tablets.
In the Kingdom Christ is ruling with a rod of iron.
In Revelation 12:5 we see the Israel presented as the woman and her children who shall rule the nations with a rod of iron. Christ.
The Church is never identified as the nations or inhabitants of the earth.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 seems to fit Christ ruling here on earth with a rod of iron as presented in other scriptures and that is a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
Other passages;
Revelation 2:27.
Revelation 19:15.
Isaiah 65:16-25 has much to say about this economy.
This echoes Psalms 2:6-9.
"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Scripture says the Church shall reign with Christ.
Revelation 20:6.
2 Timothy 2:12.
Revelation 5:10.
Luke 22:28-30.
The reigning is not a present reality but a future hope for believers.
Blessings.
In a previous comment, you emphasized the importance of properly considering a matter before speaking, so as not to appear as "fools." I wonder if perhaps the claim that Christ will reign with the saints on earth was rebutted too quickly, without sufficient consideration.
The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 14:2-3 are described as the firstfruits of those saved in Israel after the rapture, as verse 14 clarifies. However, this does not imply that Christ will not return to earth with them. They will return together with all who have inherited salvation, as seen in Revelation 21:1-3.
It is also important to note that the New Jerusalem, symbolically represented as the Bride, represents the spiritual Church or body of Christ. This is supported in Hebrews 12:22, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 2:19-22, 1 Peter 2:5, and 1 Corinthians 3:9. Only those who have received the Spirit of Christ are considered part of the Church of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 12:13, Romans 8:9).
This Church will return to earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years, as indicated in Revelation 20:4, Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15.
As Elihu said in Job 34:22: "If you have understanding, hear this; listen to the voice of my words."
Please note that my words are not intended as insults or to cause offense, for that would not reflect the love that the Lord Jesus expects from us. Rather, my intention is to encourage careful consideration of matters from a biblical perspective, rather than relying solely on worldly opinion. As the Lord Jesus said, many teach the traditions of men as doctrine, and as Paul says, we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.
Beloved City is Jerusalem , who stand now against Gog and Magog ( Ezekiel 38).
Satan has not yet been confined in the bottomless pit, so Revelation 20:3 has not occurred. This will happen after Jesus returns, the first resurrection, the Battle of Armageddon, and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. You can read Revelation 17, 18, 19, and Revelation 20:1-6.
The short season you said was in Revelation 20:6 may be referring to Revelation 12:7-12. In Revelation 12:7-9, Satan and his angels are cast down to earth with no more access to heaven. Revelation 12:12 states he knows he has only a short time.
My understanding is that this short time lasts three and a half years, also 42 months or 1260 days, often referenced in Revelation as the period of great tribulation involving Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. We also see reference to it in Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24, and Revelation 7:14. I hope this helps.
Revelation and the prophecies about the end days require study and prayer; many different interpretations exist.
God bless,
RLW
But in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, when Jesus speaks about those Churches, these of course are Christians who have truly repented and followed Jesus in their lives and the works they produced were the acts resulting from their faith. So, they were in the most part commended (except the Laodiceans) in their faith & works therefrom, but failed in some other areas. And what this means to us is, what we do in our new lives that God has given us through His Son, must be acts that are produced from a new, active, vibrant faith in God. And this faith can only come from Him, by His Spirit in us. If anything that is done apart from this, however good & useful that might be, are not the result of 'faith in action', or to say it in another way, 'our acts have been done from motives other than Holy Spirit inspired and generated'. Jesus was looking for such works in them (led by the Spirit) and in us as well and we need to be alert and careful that we allow God's Spirit to govern every area of our lives. At the Bema Seat (the judgement of believers' works: 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15) is the only judgement that believers will face - and this judgement is not whether we're saved or not (our sins were judged at the Cross), but how we have lived our lives & the works produced from it.
(Part 2):
I see Revelation 19:8 as describing the bride of Christ (the church). And the bride is given fine linen to wear, the same attire spoken of in Verse 14. So, my understanding is that the armies (emphasis on plural) in Verse 14 consists of both angels and saints, with the saints being the ones arrayed in fine linen.
Zechariah 14:5 indicates that when the Lord comes, all the saints will come with Him. In Matthew 24:31, which you referenced, the elect being gathered are the Jews, not the church.
To answer your question asking who they are in Revelation 20:4-6, I would say that they are the ones who were still here after the rapture, and during the tribulation they were persuaded by the angelic preaching of the gospel and the gospel being preached by the 144,000 not to take the mark of the beast. They will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast or taking the mark.
From what I see, Revelation 20:4-6 is not talking about the church. There will be some who will turn to Christ during the tribulation period, and they will be saved.
Anyways, I'm sure we are once again in disagreement on this subject, but it is still nice to be able to share our understanding with each other. May the Lord continue to keep us until the day of redemption, and may He continue to give us a hunger for His word in order that we might grow in His grace and knowledge.
God Bless!!!
If I may, the armies that come from heaven when Jesus returns are angels, as mentioned in Matthew 13:39, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 24:31, Matthew 25:31, Matthew 26:53, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and others.
If the Church, the dead in Christ, are resurrected and those still living are changed and taken to heaven, raptured before Jesus returns. When Jesus does return, who are they in Revelation 20:4-6? The judgment seat of Christ includes some who are here during the time of the beast. That would make another resurrection.
A separate rapture before the second coming would mean two resurrections before the white throne judgment. I can't find that in Scripture. The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ must be the same event.
God bless,
RLW
Revelation is difficult to discuss briefly, and I may have stumbled.
I tried to explain that Revelation isn't arranged in order like other books in the Bible, and I didn't do a good job. Jesus doesn't return until the seventh trumpet, the last trump, 1 Corinthians 15:52, Revelation 10:7.
I'm sorry, but I don't know much about Premillennialism, Amillennialism, or Postmillennialism. I haven't studied them, and I don't care for titles.
My understanding is that Jesus returns in Revelation 19:11-16, and the saints are resurrected, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 20:4-6.
This is when the great tribulation ends, and God's wrath is poured out, Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:1-17.
Next comes the battle of Armageddon, Revelation 19:17-21 which those in the first resurrection will participate, Revelation 17:14. Their Judgement is shown in Revelation 20:4. The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, and those who worshiped the beast and had the mark are either cast in then or during the white throne judgment, but their verdict was already given, Revelation 14:9-10.
Then the kingdom will be established, and there will be people left in the nations whom Satan, after he is released, will deceive.
The land of Israel will be restored, Ezekiel 11:17, Jeremiah 23:5-6, and members of the tribes of Israel that will be gathered from all the nations will inhabit that land during the 1000 years, Jeremiah 29:14. Other nations will, as seen in Zechariah 14:16-20, witness Jesus ruling with a rod of iron; there are other Scriptures about this time.
I hope this makes things clearer.
God bless,
RLW
1 "Can you tell me how you interpret the events after the tribulation period, on into the Millennium, when Satan is chained and when he is loosed?"
I will do my best to show my understanding of your questions. My study is simple, and I rely on the Bible for interpretation. I use Word Search, a concordance, and my Bible provides other verses that cross-reference a word or phrase throughout Scripture.
The book of Revelation is not in chronological order. We see in Revelation 1:7, that when He comes in the clouds, every eye will see Him. Revelation 6:12-17 shows a vision given to John after the Sixth Seal, revealing the signs of Jesus' coming. Cross-references include Joel 2:10-11, 30-31, Matthew 24, and others.
In Revelation 11:15-19, the seventh trumpet, or the last trumpet, signals the coming of Jesus, ending the tribulation and beginning God's wrath. Revelation 14 combines visions that are not in order; we see Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144000, which would occur after Revelation 19:11-16. We know this because, when He returns, His feet will land on the Mount of Olives, as described in Zechariah 14:4.
Revelation 14:6-7 describes the angel preaching the everlasting gospel, which must occur near the end of the tribulation. The announcement of Babylon's fall is seen in chapters 17 and 18. Revelation 14:9-11 states the fate of those who worship the beast, take its mark, and follow the beast and the false prophet. This is carried out in Revelation 19:20-21.
Revelation 14:12-13 declares, "Blessed are those who die in the Lord from henceforth," even as the tribulation continues. My understanding of Revelation 14:14-16, which covers the harvest and the first resurrection, is supported by passages like Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 20:4-6, and Matthew 24:29-31. Revelation 14:17-20 describes the battle of Armageddon, with related references in Revelation 19:17-21, Ezekiel 39:17-21, and Luke 17:37.
See Part 2
Part two
In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit, where he will be held so he cannot deceive the nations anymore. This will last for a thousand years. The Beast, the false prophet, and I assume all the fallen angels are bathing in the lake of fire. I am unsure about the fallen angels because Scripture does not specify, but we know that it is their destiny.
Also, tell me who populates the Millennium?
As we read Revelation, considering the Great Tribulation and God's wrath, Earth has sustained massive damage. However, the only ones cast into the lake of fire are those living or killed who worshiped the beast and received his mark.
That leaves those in Christ who are in the first resurrection, and nations of people who neither worshiped the beast nor received his mark, nor believed in Jesus. This may have been after the fullness of the Gentiles, and they may have missed the opportunity.
The land of Israel will be restored, Ezekiel 11:17, Jeremiah 23:5-6, and members of the tribes of Israel that will be gathered from all the nations will inhabit that land during the 1000 years, Jeremiah 29:14. Other nations will, as seen in Zechariah 14:16-20, witness Jesus ruling with a rod of iron; there are other Scriptures about this time.
Later, after 1000 years, Satan gathers a multitude as numerous as the sands of the sea to encamp against the camp of the saints in Jerusalem. Then fire consumes them, and Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire. Then comes the final Judgment of the rest of the dead.
Hey brother, I hope you can understand this. I tried to keep it brief because I didn't want to send a big message, given the site today. I also tried not to be too long-winded out of consideration for others. Any questions, let me know. I may have bumbled trying to keep it short.
God bless,
RLW
My understanding of the coming of Jesus, the first resurrection, and the gathering of saints to Him, which I see as a one-time event. I understand many may disagree, but I feel in my heart that the teaching of the rapture as a separate event may be incorrect. We must understand that in Revelation, the events recorded in the book are not a linear timeline.
Jesus returns only once, which is what Paul warns about. In 2 Timothy 2:16-18, I believe Paul is addressing the same issue he talks about in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8. Paul says, Let no man deceive you by any means, and he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. He states that that day will not come unless there is a falling away first, meaning apostasy or a turning away from faith, and the revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, which signifies destruction.
Both of these events must happen before Jesus returns. Just as back then, false teachings about the timing and details of Jesus' return, as I feel the idea of a separate rapture, many are expecting something that is not going to happen, and when it becomes evident to those still here, that moment will lead to the falling away. I feel great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
When Jesus returns, we observe the first resurrection, the battle of Armageddon, and the judgment of those in the first resurrection in Revelation 19:11 through Revelation 20:4-6. This judgment includes those who did not worship the beast or take his mark. This proves it is after the great tribulation. Those who fought with Jesus in this battle are the chosen and faithful, Revelation 17:14. These are the ones in the first resurrection; they will reign with Jesus on earth, not in heaven.
Thank you, brother, for this discussion that I feel is very important and will continue to study. It is up to each of us to pray in search of the truth.
God bless,
RLW
I thought the discussion was about both the Rapture and the 1000-year reign of Jesus. I understand there are different interpretations, but I believe it will be an actual earthly kingdom with Israel restored, with Jesus sitting on the throne of David. We see the beginning in Revelation 20:1-4.
All who are in the first resurrection will be judged; these will reign with Jesus as king in Israel over the entire world. Regarding Isaiah 2:2-5, I am not sure if it refers to the whole world or just the restored land of Israel, where animals experience peace and harmony, like when they were first created.
We see the gathering and restoration of the remnant of the house of Israel within the boundaries of the land God promised Abraham, as mentioned in Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 11. We also see references in Jeremiah 23:5-6, Ezekiel 37:21-28, Zechariah 9:9, Daniel 2:44, and Matthew 19:28.
Thank you, brother. I could list more, but I believe these passages demonstrate that this kingdom and the rule of Jesus will be on this earth, and He will govern with a rod of iron, as in Revelation 12:5, during the time Satan is bound in the bottomless pit for 1000 years.
God bless,
RLW
Gigi if we don't agree in the scriptures or understand the opposing point of view then scripture is not going to clear this up.
You should be confident and proud to expound on your Scriptural support.
Gigi a few years back you said you believed the Millennial reign of Christ was in Heaven "with no Scriptural support " and then I showed you Revelation 20:6-8 and that's all it took for you to change your mind!
Then another brother gave you a alternative idea and you ran with that saying you would accept anything as an alternative other than the way dispensationalists interpret scripture.
I suppose after further studying other doctrinal viewpoints you said you fall in the Amillennial category. (I found that interesting because so did Earl Bowman and Alex in the way they spiritualize the text.)
Gigi you hold to the least definitive way of interpreting scripture but yet you want definitive answers!
They don't believe in an actual Millennial reign of Christ here on earth.
You finally admitted you had to do more studying on eschatology and left the discussion without even giving any scripture supporting your views.
That is why I ask you to present your own definitive scriptures that supports your beliefs.
This is where my accusations come from saying that you study Christianity but not scripture.
Blessings.
What is the Rapture? It is a doctrine that began in the 1800s and is widely accepted today. The belief in it is so strong that many see it as a promise, a guarantee, that the Church will be taken to heaven and escape the great tribulation, which is often confused with the wrath of God. But is it true or just a deception? Isn't the rapture a resurrection? We see there are only two resurrections, in Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:12-13, separated by a thousand years.
Nowhere is the Church shown in heaven; Revelation 19:7-9 is not about the Church. It describes the bride of Christ adorned with the righteousness of the saints. The marriage and the marriage supper will not occur until Revelation 21:1-2, which takes place after the new heaven and new earth. The angel shows John the bride, the Lamb's wife, who is not the Church, as stated in Revelation 21:9-11.
We must distinguish between the great tribulation and the wrath of God; they are not the same. Tribulation refers to the suffering and persecution faced by believers. We see in Revelation 12:12, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, for the devil has come down to you, having great wrath. This is when he gives power to the beast, and the great tribulation begins. The short time Satan believed he had was 3.5 years, not seven. Revelation 13:5 mentions 42 months, which is 1260 days, or 3.5 years. The prophecy in Daniel 9 is all about the Messiah, Jesus, and the time Israel has.
We do not see the wrath of God and the Lamb until after the sixth seal, in Revelation 6:12-17. This is when Jesus returns to earth, the earth is round, and when Jesus returns, it will be as in Mathew 24:29-31. We will then meet Him in the air, and we all come down together.
God bless,
RLW
c) Where does Scripture teach that ethnic Israel will inherit eternally an earthly life and the Church will inherit a heavenly life?
I can't speak for those who might believe this, since I don't see it this way. But I understand that both believing Israel and believing Gentile will share together eternally with Jesus in His 1000 year reign ( Revelation 20:4-6), & then at some future date, in the New heavens & New Earth ( Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:12,13).
d) Where does Scripture teach that the church came into being because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah?
The Scripture that comes to mind is Acts 13:46-48, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". And Paul also shared this in Romans 11:11. I realize that these accounts speak generally of the Jews who stood against the message of the Cross; some no doubt, would have believed and brought into the Church. To Page 3.
My question in regard to verse
Revelation 20:12
How many books were opened?
Where is the reference to sins we have committed?
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
God will judge personal sin. THE "LEFT HAND PROPLE"
The Bible is clear that individuals who practice sin will be judged. For example, there's a large laundry list of sin in Romans 1:29-31.
(29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
(30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,"
(31)Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:"
Paul clearly states that God will judge those who practice those things.
Romans 2:2
"But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."
Romans 2:3
"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
This portion of scripture
also gives us a list of those who practice sins and what will become of them.
Likewise, Hebrews tells us God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterers.
Hebrews 13:4
"Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."
To top it all off, Jesus himself says the one who rejects Him will be judged.
John 12:48
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY.
So the conclusion is unavoidable-God is Good