Believers today are part of the "one new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a spiritual organism distinct from Israel.
There is "neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ ( Gal. 3:28).
Romans 9:4 shows that the covenants belonged to Israel-not the Gentiles.
2. Promises: What We Possess
Israel's Covenants
Abrahamic: land and nation ( Gen. 17:7-8).
Mosaic: law and priesthood ( Ex. 19:5-6).
Davidic: kingdom and throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16).
New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34) promised to Israel.
Body of Christ's Blessings
We were once "strangers from the covenants" ( Eph. 2:12).
Now we are blessed with "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3).
Our position is in Christ, not in Israel's covenant structure.
3. Destiny: Where We Are Headed
Israel's Future
Earthly kingdom promises remain for Israel ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28).
Romans 11:25-29 confirms God will fulfill His covenants with them.
Church's Future
Our hope is heavenly, as citizens of heaven ( Phil. 3:20-21).
The mystery revealed to Paul shows the Church is a distinct entity ( Col. 1:25-27).
The Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Summary
Christians in this dispensation are not "spiritual Israel." The covenants remain with Israel, while the Church enjoys a new, heavenly calling through the mystery revealed to Paul. To merge them erases God's faithfulness to Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ.
Thanks bro Lbooth1955 for sharing these important matters again. I have pored through these two recent posts of yours and in all honesty, I have to admit that I'm still confused (to my shame of course). You have taken great pains to explain all this, but I remain perplexed as to Israel's position before God today.
I can understand national Israel's position and the covenants and promises that they have been given and will be fulfilled, but unable to discern the state of those in Jewry who get saved, are born again by God's Spirit and living this new life in Christ: how do Scriptures such as Galatians 3:28,29 and Ephesians 2:11-15 fit concerning the saved from Israel? Are those promises & "future program" given to national Israel (that you highlighted) still applicable to saved Israel? If so, it seems to me that God has two programs for those being saved today: one for saved Israel and one for the Church (of the Gentiles). Therefore, Israel should not be considered part of Christ's Body, which is the present reality for those in Christ from the Gentiles, and therefore "being one in Christ" takes on a different meaning for all who are born again.
Or else, your distinction is that national Israel will see those covenants/promises fulfilled at the Millennium when they realize the Messiah Who came for them was the One Whom they pierced; but the saved of Israel are part of Christ's Body, the Church, as together we share in present blessings, being caught away when Jesus appears, and no longer being distinguishable as Jew and Gentile, rather as one together in Christ.
However, maybe neither of these two options is quite what you believe and there is a third option or a redefining of the other options. Would appreciate your clarification on this, so that in your future posts on this subject, I will know how you understand the relationship of Israel (both saved & unsaved) and the Church. Blessings.
I find it appalling that the church is filled with mens opinions on this matter rather than knowing the truth .
For was not the promise given that when the Holy Spirit of truth shall come ,He will lead us into all truth? How is it then that the church does not know the truth of this most important matter? For the Lord said even to his close dis poles who walked with Him on earth " be ye also ready" for is it not written "the Bride has got herself ready"?.
And it is clear they thought his return was imminent then . But in Hebrews it is written that " God has at sundry times and in divers manners spoken to us in times past but " in these last days has spoken to us bybHis Son." If they were the last days 2000 years ago how much the more are we in them now .? Indeed on the way to Calvary the Lord said to some weeping women " if they do this to the master when the wood is green what will they do to the servants when it is dry@"? Truly the wood now is very dry and ready for the fire .
I nce spoke to some theological students of a college in London and they told me how they were taught all the different opinions of men some of which you related to in yiur pilots of what goid is a man's opinion? It's the truth we need!
Therefore may I suggest the primary cause is an over reliance on man's own thinking and understanding subjecting the s ruptures to our own tninking rather than let the Holy Spirit lead us . For I hold to the principle or fact that as the same Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men what to write so in and by the same measure men need the same Holy Spirit to help us understand what is written . For Saul of Tarsus hadHebrew as his mother tongue ,he spoke Greek too etc but did he understand the scriptures? No!
But so misunderstood them he persecuted the church .
The harasses and Drs of the law understood Hebrew ore than most yet did they understand the scriptures? NO! They so did not understand the scriptures they crucified Him of whom they spoke of.
From a dispensational standpoint, the rapture of the Church ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-53) concludes the present dispensation of grace. The Body of Christ is removed from earth, meeting Christ in the air and receiving glorified bodies. This ends the "mystery" program revealed to Paul, and God resumes His prophetic dealings with Israel.
With the Church gone, Daniel's 70th week ( Dan. 9:24-27) begins. This seven-year Tribulation is marked by the rise of the Antichrist ( 2 Thess. 2:3-8), covenant dealings with Israel, and severe judgments foretold in Revelation 6-19. God's wrath is poured out through seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments, purging the earth and refining Israel. A believing remnant emerges, while unbelieving nations and Israel face judgment.
At the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns bodily to earth ( Zech. 14:4; Rev. 19:11-16). Unlike the rapture, where He comes for His saints, this is His Second Coming to defeat the Antichrist and establish His kingdom. The battle of Armageddon ( Rev. 16:16; 19:19-21) culminates in His victory, and Satan is bound.
Christ then establishes His millennial reign on earth ( Rev. 20:1-6). Israel's covenants are fulfilled, Jerusalem becomes the center of worship, and nations are blessed through Israel ( Isa. 2:2-4; Jer. 31:31-34). After the 1,000 years, Satan is loosed briefly, defeated, and cast into the lake of fire ( Rev. 20:7-10).
Finally, the Great White Throne judgment occurs ( Rev. 20:11-15), followed by the new heaven and new earth ( Rev. 21-22). God dwells with His redeemed forever.
I hope you don't mind me asking just a few questions. I am trying to follow. I understand, as you have presented, the Church is raptured, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and taken to heaven. You say, "Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture interpret scripture". Where in these Scriptures does it say we are taken to heaven?
You say the rapture is before the seals, trumpets, and bowls; these three are the wrath of God. How does that agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52? Do you see the rapture as secret?
You say that after the rapture, the antichrist rises, and the 7-year tribulation starts, where only those not in the body of Christ and Israelites are left. How does that agree with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, where Paul is comforting them not to worry that the coming of the Lord will not happen, before there is a falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed?
Will the Church/the body of Christ be in heaven or on earth during the 1000 years?
Is the great tribulation and the wrath of God the same thing?
The rapture or I think the more correct word is " translation" but it is understood that it speaks of the time that the church will meet the Lord "in the air ".
The " come up hither " of revelation .
It is as "the time of Noah " where you have Enoch who was translated and did not see death fir God took him before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth .
Noah was saved through that flood .
The misunderstandings primarily come from the false idea that every one in te church will be iris automatically in the Bride and thus raptured . But there are scriptures that clearly show people get saved during the " great tribulation" so to square that circle we have all the pre post 3/4 millenniums etc .
But once it is understood that to be BORN again qualifies us to "run the race " but does not win us the prize that you have like the first Adam who's bride came from his body so too the Bride Christ will also come from the main body of the last Adam .
One verse here or there will not resolve it all . But using all scripture gives us a more perfect picture of the Bride .
Every true BORN child of God is called " to that high calling" even as the Spirit of Christ is outside the church knocking on its door is a call to repentance of the whole church but the promise is given to those " who have ears to hear AND open the door.."
The 10 virgins speaks of the church . The division is between the wise and foolish .
The Lord is coming FOR His bride who will meet Him in the air .
When she has gone all restraints on thecspirit of antichrist will have been removed and he will be given his enthusiasm if rope .
Those found not ready will suffer martyrdom " as through fire"..
Then thecLord will come WITH His bride to judge the world in righteousness .
Understand the nature character and disposition of the Bride and much of the other ' problems' get resolved .
I understand many believe in the rapture, some say pre, mid, or post. In all three views, we are taken to heaven. I have not found any Scripture that explicitly states we are taken to heaven; it is an assumption, and it must be read where it is not written. I don't see the bride mentioned in the rapture doctrine; that's another discussion.
I see the coming of Jesus not as a secret event, but as one the world will witness. This is supported by Scripture: Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 19:11-16. This event occurs after the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, Revelation 11:15. Then, we see the angel summoning the birds for the battle of Armageddon.
The ones in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6, will be with Jesus during the battle, Revelation 17:12-14. Afterward, we observe the judgment of those in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4.
A thought, over the past nearly 2000 years, believers in Christ, the body of Christ, the Church have faced beheading, burning at the stake, being placed on poles soaked in oil, lit as lamps along roads, among other horrible deaths. Why would the last of the Church be spared? We have been told we will face much tribulation, and if we endure, Matthew 24:9-13. The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
For how then can there be so much confusion ? Has the Holy Spirit not come? Or no longer leads men " into all truth"? Or is it more likely that men no longer rely on Jim for understanding but rather upon their own?
Perhaps that is why He is outside the church knocking on its door? Rev 3+
With so many 'versions' with their 'better understanding' " All we like sheep have gone astray each going his own way ?
I do not pretend to know or understand everything about what is called the rapture and the Bride but this I do know it's the false idea that as soon as we are BORN again we are automatically in the Bride . There are too many scriotures that deny this .
In types shadows and direct teaching .
The confusion about tribulations and " the great tribulation is another".
" In this world you shall have tribulation " saud Jesus but the time of " great tribulation " God has shortened the number of days else no one wouid be saved.
The great tribulation is when the spirit of antichrist is given free reign and thecworld will see the rise of the antichrist .
I hold to fact that it is in the Bride whos "vessels are full" of the Holy Spirit that is presently holding back and restraining thst unholy spirit . But as soon as she has gone all restraints are gone .
I also hold the Bride if Christ will be despised and rejected by her brethren ( carnal) that thecLord who is coming FOR His bride will not let her see the full corruption of this earth even as the Lord did not see it in the grave .
For like Joseph who mirrored thecLords life in so many ways even to being already married when he revealed himself to his brethren the second time .
Every true born child of God is calked to that " high calling" you are qualified " to run the race" it does not " win us the prize"
The rapture happens before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth .
Even as Enoch was translated before it in " the days of Noah who while counted righteous was saved through it.
I'm not sure if you have been following those posts by Lbooth1955.
The context of him answering Brother Chris reply was are they (Israel) mentioned in James 1:1 and James 2:1 incorporated into Christ's Body, the Church, as we are?'
If not are they saved some other way?
It's a important salvation issue!
Not a eschatology debate that can easily derail topic.
I don't think Lbooth1955 answered Brother Chris reply with those 3 pages.
I have seen some of their discussion. I hope I am on the same page. The Church/body of Christ started at Pentecost, as we see the Lord added to the church daily, Acts 2:47. It was several years after Pentecost before Paul was converted and sent to the Gentiles. To the Jews first. Philip the evangelist was the first to carry the gospel to the Samaritans.
In James, his letter was sent to most likely many who were at Pentecost. It is misunderstood that the gospel to the Jews was different than Paul's. Like James 2:14-18, the works here are not works of the law; it is works of faith, that we will be judged, not for salvation but for rewards.
We see in Ephesians 2:11-16 that there is no difference; the body of Christ is made up of Jew and Gentile. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. There are not two gospels; there is no other way of salvation, regardless of what nationality we are.
I hope this is what you asked. Good to hear from you.
The letter to the Romans proves by biblical argument that both Jew and Gentile are guilty of Sin either within the law or outside of the law . There is no difference in that respect .
The answer therefore is also the same faith in Jesus Christ and His all sufficient sacrifice for sin.
Abraham being the father of the (now) faithful be they of circumcision or uncircumcision.
Those from Abel onwards were saved by faith looking forwards to the promise .We are saved looking back to that sacrifice .
Both look forwards to the coming of the Lord .
While Hews are being saved today the bulk of them ( albeit a remnant) will be saved in a day when they " see Him who they had pierced" when the Lord comes to save them from the armies of the antichrist surrounding Jerusalem and nigh n ready to destroy them all .
But fir an over all picture of things we can do no better than to go to the letter to the Romans chapter 9 and we see Paul's understanding in some measure of the children of Isreal .
The present State of Isreal is not the salvation of the Jews nor is it the fulfilment of the last two or three chapters of Deuteronomy .But it is in part a work of God . God did not give the children of Isreal the promised land because of theur righteousness but because of the exceeding " wickedness of the inhabitants" .
And God has not given them what they have because if their righteousness but because of Gods righteousness. For while the world counts the UN as the highest body ho by its 'democracy' gave them that homeland ,then they cannot uphold the terrorists who seek to deny them such a place without undermining itself nor can the Palastinians hope to establish their own State by tha body but at the same time undermine or seek to destroy the State of Isreal on the face of it established by the same body .
And in the measure by which the world judges Isreal will be the measure God will judge the world .
Many thanks again for your response Lbooth1955 and as much as I agree with your understanding and timeline of Christ's appearance and future world events, I failed to see how that answered my question. Maybe, you understood my question in a different way.
Without repeating my last comment to you, the point of my question was, 'if those of Israel are saved today (i.e. being saved as we are saved, via the Cross and faith in Christ's finished Work), are they incorporated into Christ's Body, the Church, as we are?'
If they are part of the Church and receiving the promises and blessings of life present and hereafter in Heaven, how does the promises and covenants given to national Israel impact them, if at all?
Why I asked this, in attempting to sort out my understanding of your position, is that I felt that you believed in two peoples being saved: one of Israel who will also be recipients of God's old Covenants and the other, of Gentiles making up Christ's Church. Whereas, you would have gathered from our discussions, I don't see the saved of Israel as being inheritors of those old covenants, since they are part of Christ's Body now.
Those of national Israel who die now without Christ, go the same way as any Christ-rejecter does & under the same judgement. But those who are alive when Christ comes again, first in battle, then in rule in Jerusalem, will then believe in Him as their Messiah and those covenants will be fulfilled as promised to them. But for the Church today, both Jew and Gentile are one people ("for there is no difference"), and their birth and heritage badges being removed, now being one in the Body of Christ. I hope this helps to see what I'm asking, and this will help me in understanding your position on this aspect of the saved and unsaved of Israel. GBU.
I've provided answers to your questions and tried to cover everything. If I missed anything, please let me know.
1."are they incorporated into Christ's Body, the Church, as we are?'
YES, The Jews who believe in this present dispensation are.
2."how does the promises and covenants given to national Israel impact them, if at all?"
It has no impact on the Church/Body of Christ. We are a new creature.
3."I don't see the saved of Israel as being inheritors of those old covenants, since they are part of Christ's Body now."
You are correct, my apologies if I wasn't clear or misspoke on the subject.
4."Those of national Israel who die now without Christ, go the same way as any Christ-rejecter does & under the same judgement."
This correct.
5."But those who are alive when Christ comes again, first in battle, then in rule in Jerusalem, will then believe in Him as their Messiah and those covenants will be fulfilled as promised to them"
This is also correct.
6."But for the Church today, both Jew and Gentile are one people ("for there is no difference"), and their birth and heritage badges being removed, now being one in the Body of Christ"
Correct, the one new man.
It appears that you have a good understanding of my position.
If you hold a different position I'll be happy to have that discussion.
Thank you Lbooth1955 for your answers; and yes, they do greatly help in knowing your position in this matter. It was in an earlier post of yours, I thought to have detected a different position of the saved from Israel to that of the saved from the Gentiles. So, needed clarification on it, lest in any future posts from you on this subject, I may easily make an incorrect assumption, and we know the probability of correctly assuming one's beliefs when something is unclear, can often be wrong. And I always try to get the 'foundation slab' correct, so the building being erected is at least on a solid footing. So thanks again & we can close this my inquiry to you. Blessings.
Christ establishes His 1,000-year reign on earth ( Rev. 20:1-6). Israel's covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant) are fulfilled. Jerusalem becomes the center of worship and rule ( Isa. 2:2-4; Jer. 31:31-34). Nations are blessed through Israel, as prophesied.
6. Final Judgment and Eternal State
After the millennium, Satan is loosed briefly, defeated, and cast into the lake of fire ( Rev. 20:7-10). The Great White Throne judgment follows ( Rev. 20:11-15). Then comes the new heaven and new earth, where God dwells with His redeemed forever ( Rev. 21-22).
Key pointThe rapture removes the Body of Christ before God's wrath, then Israel's prophetic program resumes, leading to Christ's earthly kingdom.
Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture, interpret scripture, completely wholly demonstrates that the church will not go through the tribulation period.
You coukd also add that the rapture of the Bride is the first fruits .
The salvation of men both Jew and gentile during the great tribulation is the main harvest . And the salvation of men after and during the time when the devil is loosed for a season are the "gleanings".
For during the millennium all nations will be ruled with a rod of iron nd be forced to conform but after a 1000 years of righteous rule over the whole earth and all the benefits that flow from that ,Satan is listed fir a season so that all will be free to make their decision . Then cometh the end . For all are gathered in that will be gathered in and those who prove to be the children of the devil the seed of the serpent will be utterly destroyed and cast into the lake of fire .
Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth and all that offended will have been cast out .
It is interesting to note ,that the earth was first baptised with water ,then with blood then with fire .
You hit the nail on the head. Here's the breakdown as I see it
The events following the rapture of the Church (the Body of Christ) are distinct from God's present program of grace revealed to Paul. Here's the sequence as generally understood:
1. The Church Is Removed
The rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-53) ends the present "dispensation of the grace of God" ( Eph. 3:2). Believers are "caught up" to meet Christ in the air, receiving glorified bodies and removed from the earth before God's wrath. This marks the close of the "mystery" program hidden in God.
2. God's Prophetic Program Resumes with Israel
With the Church gone, God resumes His dealings with Israel under prophecy. Daniel's 70th week ( Dan. 9:24-27) begins. This seven-year period is often called the Tribulation, marked by deception, judgments, and Israel's refining. The focus shifts back to Israel and the nations, not the Body of Christ.
The "man of sin" (Antichrist) is revealed ( 2 Thess. 2:3-8).
Israel enters into covenant dealings, facing persecution and purging ( Matt. 24:15-22).
Prophecies from Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Revelation are fulfilled.
3. The Day of the Lord / Tribulation Judgments
God's wrath is poured out on the earth ( Rev. 6-19). This includes seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments. Gentile nations are judged for their treatment of Israel, while unbelieving Israel faces refining. A believing remnant emerges who will inherit the kingdom ( Zech. 13:8-9).
4. Christ's Second Coming
At the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns to earth ( Rev. 19:11-16). Unlike the rapture (where He meets saints in the air), here He descends bodily to the Mount of Olives ( Zech. 14:4). He defeats the Antichrist and his armies at Armageddon ( Rev. 16:16; 19:19-21).
1. Identity: Who We Are
Body of Christ, not Israel
Believers today are part of the "one new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a spiritual organism distinct from Israel.
There is "neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ ( Gal. 3:28).
Romans 9:4 shows that the covenants belonged to Israel-not the Gentiles.
2. Promises: What We Possess
Israel's Covenants
Abrahamic: land and nation ( Gen. 17:7-8).
Mosaic: law and priesthood ( Ex. 19:5-6).
Davidic: kingdom and throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16).
New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34) promised to Israel.
Body of Christ's Blessings
We were once "strangers from the covenants" ( Eph. 2:12).
Now we are blessed with "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3).
Our position is in Christ, not in Israel's covenant structure.
3. Destiny: Where We Are Headed
Israel's Future
Earthly kingdom promises remain for Israel ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28).
Romans 11:25-29 confirms God will fulfill His covenants with them.
Church's Future
Our hope is heavenly, as citizens of heaven ( Phil. 3:20-21).
The mystery revealed to Paul shows the Church is a distinct entity ( Col. 1:25-27).
The Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Summary
Christians in this dispensation are not "spiritual Israel." The covenants remain with Israel, while the Church enjoys a new, heavenly calling through the mystery revealed to Paul. To merge them erases God's faithfulness to Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ.
Grace and Peace
I can understand national Israel's position and the covenants and promises that they have been given and will be fulfilled, but unable to discern the state of those in Jewry who get saved, are born again by God's Spirit and living this new life in Christ: how do Scriptures such as Galatians 3:28,29 and Ephesians 2:11-15 fit concerning the saved from Israel? Are those promises & "future program" given to national Israel (that you highlighted) still applicable to saved Israel? If so, it seems to me that God has two programs for those being saved today: one for saved Israel and one for the Church (of the Gentiles). Therefore, Israel should not be considered part of Christ's Body, which is the present reality for those in Christ from the Gentiles, and therefore "being one in Christ" takes on a different meaning for all who are born again.
Or else, your distinction is that national Israel will see those covenants/promises fulfilled at the Millennium when they realize the Messiah Who came for them was the One Whom they pierced; but the saved of Israel are part of Christ's Body, the Church, as together we share in present blessings, being caught away when Jesus appears, and no longer being distinguishable as Jew and Gentile, rather as one together in Christ.
However, maybe neither of these two options is quite what you believe and there is a third option or a redefining of the other options. Would appreciate your clarification on this, so that in your future posts on this subject, I will know how you understand the relationship of Israel (both saved & unsaved) and the Church. Blessings.
For was not the promise given that when the Holy Spirit of truth shall come ,He will lead us into all truth? How is it then that the church does not know the truth of this most important matter? For the Lord said even to his close dis poles who walked with Him on earth " be ye also ready" for is it not written "the Bride has got herself ready"?.
And it is clear they thought his return was imminent then . But in Hebrews it is written that " God has at sundry times and in divers manners spoken to us in times past but " in these last days has spoken to us bybHis Son." If they were the last days 2000 years ago how much the more are we in them now .? Indeed on the way to Calvary the Lord said to some weeping women " if they do this to the master when the wood is green what will they do to the servants when it is dry@"? Truly the wood now is very dry and ready for the fire .
I nce spoke to some theological students of a college in London and they told me how they were taught all the different opinions of men some of which you related to in yiur pilots of what goid is a man's opinion? It's the truth we need!
Therefore may I suggest the primary cause is an over reliance on man's own thinking and understanding subjecting the s ruptures to our own tninking rather than let the Holy Spirit lead us . For I hold to the principle or fact that as the same Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men what to write so in and by the same measure men need the same Holy Spirit to help us understand what is written . For Saul of Tarsus hadHebrew as his mother tongue ,he spoke Greek too etc but did he understand the scriptures? No!
But so misunderstood them he persecuted the church .
The harasses and Drs of the law understood Hebrew ore than most yet did they understand the scriptures? NO! They so did not understand the scriptures they crucified Him of whom they spoke of.
From a dispensational standpoint, the rapture of the Church ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-53) concludes the present dispensation of grace. The Body of Christ is removed from earth, meeting Christ in the air and receiving glorified bodies. This ends the "mystery" program revealed to Paul, and God resumes His prophetic dealings with Israel.
With the Church gone, Daniel's 70th week ( Dan. 9:24-27) begins. This seven-year Tribulation is marked by the rise of the Antichrist ( 2 Thess. 2:3-8), covenant dealings with Israel, and severe judgments foretold in Revelation 6-19. God's wrath is poured out through seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments, purging the earth and refining Israel. A believing remnant emerges, while unbelieving nations and Israel face judgment.
At the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns bodily to earth ( Zech. 14:4; Rev. 19:11-16). Unlike the rapture, where He comes for His saints, this is His Second Coming to defeat the Antichrist and establish His kingdom. The battle of Armageddon ( Rev. 16:16; 19:19-21) culminates in His victory, and Satan is bound.
Christ then establishes His millennial reign on earth ( Rev. 20:1-6). Israel's covenants are fulfilled, Jerusalem becomes the center of worship, and nations are blessed through Israel ( Isa. 2:2-4; Jer. 31:31-34). After the 1,000 years, Satan is loosed briefly, defeated, and cast into the lake of fire ( Rev. 20:7-10).
Finally, the Great White Throne judgment occurs ( Rev. 20:11-15), followed by the new heaven and new earth ( Rev. 21-22). God dwells with His redeemed forever.
Grace and Peace.
I hope you don't mind me asking just a few questions. I am trying to follow. I understand, as you have presented, the Church is raptured, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, and taken to heaven. You say, "Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture interpret scripture". Where in these Scriptures does it say we are taken to heaven?
You say the rapture is before the seals, trumpets, and bowls; these three are the wrath of God. How does that agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52? Do you see the rapture as secret?
You say that after the rapture, the antichrist rises, and the 7-year tribulation starts, where only those not in the body of Christ and Israelites are left. How does that agree with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, where Paul is comforting them not to worry that the coming of the Lord will not happen, before there is a falling away/apostasy, and the man of sin is revealed?
Will the Church/the body of Christ be in heaven or on earth during the 1000 years?
Is the great tribulation and the wrath of God the same thing?
Thank you, I hope I have quoted you correctly.
God bless,
RLW
The " come up hither " of revelation .
It is as "the time of Noah " where you have Enoch who was translated and did not see death fir God took him before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth .
Noah was saved through that flood .
The misunderstandings primarily come from the false idea that every one in te church will be iris automatically in the Bride and thus raptured . But there are scriptures that clearly show people get saved during the " great tribulation" so to square that circle we have all the pre post 3/4 millenniums etc .
But once it is understood that to be BORN again qualifies us to "run the race " but does not win us the prize that you have like the first Adam who's bride came from his body so too the Bride Christ will also come from the main body of the last Adam .
One verse here or there will not resolve it all . But using all scripture gives us a more perfect picture of the Bride .
Every true BORN child of God is called " to that high calling" even as the Spirit of Christ is outside the church knocking on its door is a call to repentance of the whole church but the promise is given to those " who have ears to hear AND open the door.."
The 10 virgins speaks of the church . The division is between the wise and foolish .
The Lord is coming FOR His bride who will meet Him in the air .
When she has gone all restraints on thecspirit of antichrist will have been removed and he will be given his enthusiasm if rope .
Those found not ready will suffer martyrdom " as through fire"..
Then thecLord will come WITH His bride to judge the world in righteousness .
Understand the nature character and disposition of the Bride and much of the other ' problems' get resolved .
Thank you, this is my understanding.
I understand many believe in the rapture, some say pre, mid, or post. In all three views, we are taken to heaven. I have not found any Scripture that explicitly states we are taken to heaven; it is an assumption, and it must be read where it is not written. I don't see the bride mentioned in the rapture doctrine; that's another discussion.
I see the coming of Jesus not as a secret event, but as one the world will witness. This is supported by Scripture: Matthew 24:29-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and Revelation 19:11-16. This event occurs after the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet, Revelation 11:15. Then, we see the angel summoning the birds for the battle of Armageddon.
The ones in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4-6, will be with Jesus during the battle, Revelation 17:12-14. Afterward, we observe the judgment of those in the first resurrection, Revelation 20:4.
A thought, over the past nearly 2000 years, believers in Christ, the body of Christ, the Church have faced beheading, burning at the stake, being placed on poles soaked in oil, lit as lamps along roads, among other horrible deaths. Why would the last of the Church be spared? We have been told we will face much tribulation, and if we endure, Matthew 24:9-13. The Great Tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same.
God bless,
RLW
For how then can there be so much confusion ? Has the Holy Spirit not come? Or no longer leads men " into all truth"? Or is it more likely that men no longer rely on Jim for understanding but rather upon their own?
Perhaps that is why He is outside the church knocking on its door? Rev 3+
With so many 'versions' with their 'better understanding' " All we like sheep have gone astray each going his own way ?
I do not pretend to know or understand everything about what is called the rapture and the Bride but this I do know it's the false idea that as soon as we are BORN again we are automatically in the Bride . There are too many scriotures that deny this .
In types shadows and direct teaching .
The confusion about tribulations and " the great tribulation is another".
" In this world you shall have tribulation " saud Jesus but the time of " great tribulation " God has shortened the number of days else no one wouid be saved.
The great tribulation is when the spirit of antichrist is given free reign and thecworld will see the rise of the antichrist .
I hold to fact that it is in the Bride whos "vessels are full" of the Holy Spirit that is presently holding back and restraining thst unholy spirit . But as soon as she has gone all restraints are gone .
I also hold the Bride if Christ will be despised and rejected by her brethren ( carnal) that thecLord who is coming FOR His bride will not let her see the full corruption of this earth even as the Lord did not see it in the grave .
For like Joseph who mirrored thecLords life in so many ways even to being already married when he revealed himself to his brethren the second time .
Every true born child of God is calked to that " high calling" you are qualified " to run the race" it does not " win us the prize"
The rapture happens before the outpouring of Gods wrath upon the earth .
Even as Enoch was translated before it in " the days of Noah who while counted righteous was saved through it.
I'm not sure if you have been following those posts by Lbooth1955.
The context of him answering Brother Chris reply was are they (Israel) mentioned in James 1:1 and James 2:1 incorporated into Christ's Body, the Church, as we are?'
If not are they saved some other way?
It's a important salvation issue!
Not a eschatology debate that can easily derail topic.
I don't think Lbooth1955 answered Brother Chris reply with those 3 pages.
Blessings.
I have seen some of their discussion. I hope I am on the same page. The Church/body of Christ started at Pentecost, as we see the Lord added to the church daily, Acts 2:47. It was several years after Pentecost before Paul was converted and sent to the Gentiles. To the Jews first. Philip the evangelist was the first to carry the gospel to the Samaritans.
In James, his letter was sent to most likely many who were at Pentecost. It is misunderstood that the gospel to the Jews was different than Paul's. Like James 2:14-18, the works here are not works of the law; it is works of faith, that we will be judged, not for salvation but for rewards.
We see in Ephesians 2:11-16 that there is no difference; the body of Christ is made up of Jew and Gentile. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. There are not two gospels; there is no other way of salvation, regardless of what nationality we are.
I hope this is what you asked. Good to hear from you.
God bless,
RLW
I believe some of the key elements in that important topic is what covenant was in order when Christ started his ministry?
Who was it to?
What was the promises given in that covenant?
Was the second covenant a plan B?
and of course "Could both covenants save?
I'll set back and share my thoughts soon.
Blessings.
The answer therefore is also the same faith in Jesus Christ and His all sufficient sacrifice for sin.
Abraham being the father of the (now) faithful be they of circumcision or uncircumcision.
Those from Abel onwards were saved by faith looking forwards to the promise .We are saved looking back to that sacrifice .
Both look forwards to the coming of the Lord .
While Hews are being saved today the bulk of them ( albeit a remnant) will be saved in a day when they " see Him who they had pierced" when the Lord comes to save them from the armies of the antichrist surrounding Jerusalem and nigh n ready to destroy them all .
But fir an over all picture of things we can do no better than to go to the letter to the Romans chapter 9 and we see Paul's understanding in some measure of the children of Isreal .
The present State of Isreal is not the salvation of the Jews nor is it the fulfilment of the last two or three chapters of Deuteronomy .But it is in part a work of God . God did not give the children of Isreal the promised land because of theur righteousness but because of the exceeding " wickedness of the inhabitants" .
And God has not given them what they have because if their righteousness but because of Gods righteousness. For while the world counts the UN as the highest body ho by its 'democracy' gave them that homeland ,then they cannot uphold the terrorists who seek to deny them such a place without undermining itself nor can the Palastinians hope to establish their own State by tha body but at the same time undermine or seek to destroy the State of Isreal on the face of it established by the same body .
And in the measure by which the world judges Isreal will be the measure God will judge the world .
The church is to show the Jew mercy .
Well stayed!
Blessings
[Comment Removed]
Without repeating my last comment to you, the point of my question was, 'if those of Israel are saved today (i.e. being saved as we are saved, via the Cross and faith in Christ's finished Work), are they incorporated into Christ's Body, the Church, as we are?'
If they are part of the Church and receiving the promises and blessings of life present and hereafter in Heaven, how does the promises and covenants given to national Israel impact them, if at all?
Why I asked this, in attempting to sort out my understanding of your position, is that I felt that you believed in two peoples being saved: one of Israel who will also be recipients of God's old Covenants and the other, of Gentiles making up Christ's Church. Whereas, you would have gathered from our discussions, I don't see the saved of Israel as being inheritors of those old covenants, since they are part of Christ's Body now.
Those of national Israel who die now without Christ, go the same way as any Christ-rejecter does & under the same judgement. But those who are alive when Christ comes again, first in battle, then in rule in Jerusalem, will then believe in Him as their Messiah and those covenants will be fulfilled as promised to them. But for the Church today, both Jew and Gentile are one people ("for there is no difference"), and their birth and heritage badges being removed, now being one in the Body of Christ. I hope this helps to see what I'm asking, and this will help me in understanding your position on this aspect of the saved and unsaved of Israel. GBU.
I've provided answers to your questions and tried to cover everything. If I missed anything, please let me know.
1."are they incorporated into Christ's Body, the Church, as we are?'
YES, The Jews who believe in this present dispensation are.
2."how does the promises and covenants given to national Israel impact them, if at all?"
It has no impact on the Church/Body of Christ. We are a new creature.
3."I don't see the saved of Israel as being inheritors of those old covenants, since they are part of Christ's Body now."
You are correct, my apologies if I wasn't clear or misspoke on the subject.
4."Those of national Israel who die now without Christ, go the same way as any Christ-rejecter does & under the same judgement."
This correct.
5."But those who are alive when Christ comes again, first in battle, then in rule in Jerusalem, will then believe in Him as their Messiah and those covenants will be fulfilled as promised to them"
This is also correct.
6."But for the Church today, both Jew and Gentile are one people ("for there is no difference"), and their birth and heritage badges being removed, now being one in the Body of Christ"
Correct, the one new man.
It appears that you have a good understanding of my position.
If you hold a different position I'll be happy to have that discussion.
Grace and Peace.
5. The Millennial Kingdom
Christ establishes His 1,000-year reign on earth ( Rev. 20:1-6). Israel's covenants (Abrahamic, Davidic, New Covenant) are fulfilled. Jerusalem becomes the center of worship and rule ( Isa. 2:2-4; Jer. 31:31-34). Nations are blessed through Israel, as prophesied.
6. Final Judgment and Eternal State
After the millennium, Satan is loosed briefly, defeated, and cast into the lake of fire ( Rev. 20:7-10). The Great White Throne judgment follows ( Rev. 20:11-15). Then comes the new heaven and new earth, where God dwells with His redeemed forever ( Rev. 21-22).
Key pointThe rapture removes the Body of Christ before God's wrath, then Israel's prophetic program resumes, leading to Christ's earthly kingdom.
Rightly dividing the scriptures and letting scripture, interpret scripture, completely wholly demonstrates that the church will not go through the tribulation period.
I hope this helps.
Grace and Peace.
The salvation of men both Jew and gentile during the great tribulation is the main harvest . And the salvation of men after and during the time when the devil is loosed for a season are the "gleanings".
For during the millennium all nations will be ruled with a rod of iron nd be forced to conform but after a 1000 years of righteous rule over the whole earth and all the benefits that flow from that ,Satan is listed fir a season so that all will be free to make their decision . Then cometh the end . For all are gathered in that will be gathered in and those who prove to be the children of the devil the seed of the serpent will be utterly destroyed and cast into the lake of fire .
Then there will be a new heaven and a new earth and all that offended will have been cast out .
It is interesting to note ,that the earth was first baptised with water ,then with blood then with fire .
You hit the nail on the head. Here's the breakdown as I see it
The events following the rapture of the Church (the Body of Christ) are distinct from God's present program of grace revealed to Paul. Here's the sequence as generally understood:
1. The Church Is Removed
The rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-53) ends the present "dispensation of the grace of God" ( Eph. 3:2). Believers are "caught up" to meet Christ in the air, receiving glorified bodies and removed from the earth before God's wrath. This marks the close of the "mystery" program hidden in God.
2. God's Prophetic Program Resumes with Israel
With the Church gone, God resumes His dealings with Israel under prophecy. Daniel's 70th week ( Dan. 9:24-27) begins. This seven-year period is often called the Tribulation, marked by deception, judgments, and Israel's refining. The focus shifts back to Israel and the nations, not the Body of Christ.
The "man of sin" (Antichrist) is revealed ( 2 Thess. 2:3-8).
Israel enters into covenant dealings, facing persecution and purging ( Matt. 24:15-22).
Prophecies from Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Revelation are fulfilled.
3. The Day of the Lord / Tribulation Judgments
God's wrath is poured out on the earth ( Rev. 6-19). This includes seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments. Gentile nations are judged for their treatment of Israel, while unbelieving Israel faces refining. A believing remnant emerges who will inherit the kingdom ( Zech. 13:8-9).
4. Christ's Second Coming
At the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns to earth ( Rev. 19:11-16). Unlike the rapture (where He meets saints in the air), here He descends bodily to the Mount of Olives ( Zech. 14:4). He defeats the Antichrist and his armies at Armageddon ( Rev. 16:16; 19:19-21).
See next pg.
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