Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 21

Hi again June 316. As much as your question can generate various opinions, my belief is that if a Christian has truly been born again, having received the Holy Spirit to indwell, sustain & secure him/her, then it is impossible for that person to have God's Spirit abandon him/her for any reason.

It is however true, that if a believer should succumb to the enemy's temptations and does not take remedial action as the Holy Spirit directs, then there will be loss. Not a loss of the Holy Spirit or salvation, but the loss of sweet communion, maybe of some degree of estrangement if sin is allowed to persist, and of the Spirit's intervention by way of warning or discipline. Or the Spirit might even allow that erring soul to taste the depravity of his/her sin, so that they may come to their senses, repent, and be restored; the story of the prodigal son is a good example of a poor choice made and yet, of a waiting loving father who is ready to forgive, receive, and restore ( Luke 15:11-32).

Just a few verses to consider (and there are many more): John 10:26-29; Romans 8:33-39; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Jude 1:24,25.

This is why we often read of the apostles encouraging believers to be on guard against the enemy of our souls, of sin creeping into the life, and not being involved in anything that even smells of sin; Why? Not for salvation's loss, but for suffering under God's Hand of discipline and the pain of estrangement from God.

Why should we entertain anything that breaks our special love relationship with our God & Savior & bring on ourselves sorrow upon sorrow? The Holy Spirit will always alert us when we err and will always bring us back, so salvation cannot be lost. But for those who feel no sorrow or estrangement when they stray, they do not have the Holy Spirit within them and are not saved. But while they have breath, there remains hope if they draw near to God, He will draw near to them. GBU.

I accept that as well Gerald, that the forty years belief (so often read in the Word), is taken as the norm. But it refers to the Israelite wanderings in the wilderness after the spies' report, and not their desert travels to get to the Promised Land. So, forty is probably an easy number to hang onto, since it is a clear number recorded several times in the Bible and easier to remember or include it in hymns.

Just quickly to your other questions: I feel the Promised Land would equate to the rest we, as believers in Christ, have in Him. We will experience tribulations and temptations, just as Israel did when physically in their Canaan, but it was their own God-given possession and rest from their bondage, struggles, & their enemies ( Deuteronomy 12:9,10). So, I don't equate the Promised Land with Heaven, for we still have our enemies, within & without, to fight & conquer.

Romans 8:37. Through everything that life or Satan might throw at us, if Jesus by His Spirit is reigning in us, we will, through Him, be victorious in every circumstance we face. It's never easy traveling down struggle street, but when our eyes turn to Jesus & not our circumstances, we find victory; and greater victory than a human conqueror may or may not gain, returning from battle; for the victory for those in Christ is certain, continually, through Christ alone.

Matthew 16:18. True, gates can be considered the weakest part of a fortified city, but it is through those gates that the troops issue forth to battle. Those symbolic gates of Hell are opened allowing destructive deceiving spirits to wreak havoc on humans, particularly against Christ's Church. But the true and faithful Church will stand strong against those evil forces, by attending wholly to God's Word and abundant Life in the Spirit, so evil cannot gain a foothold & will leave defeated. But they will return for sure - the Church must ever remain on guard, "for we are not ignorant of his devices". GBU.

Azzan,

Of course these two Scriptures are very true. Therefore, I sincerely do attempt to speak in my postings in a way that brings glory to God and hope to add to the understanding of others. I so read what others post and desire to gain understanding as to the points they are desiring to make. This is important to me to do so. Sometimes I agree with others and other times not. I don't think any of us possess completely accurate understandings of Scriptures and having dialogues are helpful for all involved.

Let me add that I do appreciate that you continue to post Scripture. It is important for all of us to read, hear, speak, and write out what Scripture says. It helps us hide it in our hearts for the Spirit to use to train us up in faith, doctrine, and knowledge of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I do wish that you may consider making some comments when you post Scriptures so those who read your post can get a better understanding of why you chose the particular verses you post. This helps us to get to know one another and to develop good relationships with one another which are valuable.

Be blessed tonight and always. We have an awesome, amazing, great God who chose us in Him first before we ever considered choosing Him. Thankfully!

Hello Chris ,

The problem with written messages is that the tone meaning and objectives can be misunderstood . I much prefer talking face to face because such misunderstandings can be nipped in the bud. Or corrected if badly expressed .

So having said that my apologies for any misunderstanding . I too was raised up and since converted for most of my life thiught only in terms of 40 years . I think it was one of those great hymns sung a few rimes that caught my attention as to what it was saying which did not make sense with the light of scripture . The actual time I had calculated adding up all the times mentioned was 2 1/2 years or so . Others have put in that they were at Sinai for a year ,I thought it was 3 months so I'm going to have to check again . But I don't think the overall figure changes much .

When I said the church has made the 40 years the Christian norm . I still think so . But it is the grace of God that I understood that ,not for my or any condemnation but that we might think again and " consider our ways" . Paul said they entered not in "because of unbelief " so we can't be too easy on ourselves . For clearly we have bern blindsided by the devil and been robbed for a very long time .

For if the promised land is not heaven what is it?

That's fir another discussion . But here is another thiught.

What is " More than a conqueror.? Through Jesus Christ .

And another " " ye young men the Word of God dwelleth in you richly and yiu have overcome the wicked one" Now there is a promise! And what about " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" nearly all my adult life that verse has been presented as the church will withstand all the forces of hell etc.

But gates do not attack anything . They are the weakest part of a city wall and thus the most heavily defended .

I don't yet understand all it means but it does NOT mean the church is on the back foot and withstanding the powers of hell . But rather the reverse

Are there any circumstances under which a person who has received the Holy Spirit, can lose it?

Amen.

James 1:26

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Matthew 12:36

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Blessings

Thanks Gerald for your detailed explanation about the forty years. I can understand that your mentioning the two and one half years was the approximate time to travel from Egypt to the border of Canaan. Whereas, the forty years mentioned in the Bible refers to the time of wandering because of their sin of unbelief. So we could believe that it took over forty years for the Israelites to enter the Promised Land. Then, those who use the forty figure only or the two and one half years figure, would both be in error for the total time to actually enter the land was even higher. Blessings.

Thanks GiGi for those details. I took note of your accurate comment about the opposition of the Philistines that the Israelites would encounter had they taken that shorter northern route. And my Bible commentary adds to that: "the Egyptians also had forts near the coast, thus barring a direct route to Canaan". And so they had to re-direct their route southwards through the wilderness of Shur ( Exodus 15:22) and onto Marah, Elim, finding water here ( Exodus 15:23,27), etc.

And yes, given that the total number of Israelites traveling would have numbered up to two million (over 600,000 able-bodied men: Numbers 1:45,46, plus women and children), what could have been a much shorter journey in time, would have extended out much further.

I shared with Gerald about the understanding, or misunderstanding, about the 'forty years' it took them to enter Canaan. Well, a little more than forty years as we include their initial travel from Egypt. GBU.

Giannis,

Pt. 3

I do not think the NJ is a physical dwelling, but a symbolic representation of spiritual realities. Since it describes it as a bride and wearing clothing and such it is obviously a symbolic vision.

But this does not rule out a physical paradise like Eden or physical homes fit for us to live in that Jesus will provide for us for to live in for eternity. Since we will resurrect in physical bodies that are immortal, the earth will most likely be the perfect and most suitable place for us to live out eternity. We will still do many of the things our physical body does as Jesus' resurrected body did-eating, fellowshipping, walking, etc. We will have plenty to do, I believe. Not as ethereal spirits floating around God's throne as many depict our eternal existence. We will be a people of God and therefore have relationships with each other and most likely collaborative work to do in God's eternal kingdom.

Giannis,,

Pt. 2

There is no need for the other parts and furnishings of the temple/tabernacle because there will no longer be any sacrifices made for sin, nor physical priestly offerings, the old has passed away and our continual, sinless relating with God will be pleasing to Him. Our praises and singing will glorify Him forever and our love from Him and one another will be in accordance with the perfect commands Jesus gave us to sum up God's will for us.

The New Jerusalem will be gloriously shining and transparent in many ways to symbolize our new sinless and pure life through and through to be like that of Jesus' life.

I do believe that this New Jerusalem is highly symbolic of realities that are not physical. But as to Jesus preparing a place for us, He may have meant this spiritual reality depicted as many rooms in His Father's house.

But most likely there is a both a spiritual and a physical reality to what Jesus promised. And if there is a physical, I do not think it is the New Jerusalem as the vision described. More likely Jesus will provide both a paradisal environment as in Eden yet differing in that God's heavenly throne (His dominion, power, authority and right to rule over the body of Christ and new creation) will no longer be separated from the earth as in the beginning. He will always be "God with us".

I don't think we can really know what the physical dwelling might be that Jesus promised. Could be our resurrected physical bodies now glorified as we would be changed and clothed with immortality and righteousness forever. And/or it could be that Jesus brings to the New Earth ready made physical dwellings for believers to dwell in throughout the new heavens and new earth in a terrestial way. It could be that Jesus will bring the blueprint and give us the skills to build for ourselves a fit physical home, community, as well as a society that is built on heavenly immutable principles. Such a physical dwelling will not look like the NJ. see Pt. 3

Hi BobbyZ

The Seven feast is a very interesting study!

The Hebrews called the feasts of Israel "the Appointed Times,"

Each feast has a prophetic role and a pattern for ourunderstanding.

Not only are the feasts prophetic, but each gets fulfilled at its appointed time on the very day it is observed.

The first three feasts are in the spring; the Passover Feast, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the Feast of Firstfruits.

They all occur in the first month of the religious year, Nisan. Shavuot,

The Feast of Weeks, is celebrated 50 days after the Feast of Firstfruits.

The first three are associated with the First Coming of Jesus Christ.

The last three, with His Second Coming.

The remaining feast, in between is prophetic of the Church.

This appears to have been fulfilled with the "birth" of the Church on the day the Feast of Pentecost was being celebrated in Acts Chapter 2.

Also.

The Feast of Pentecost is the only feast which uses leavened bread!

Leaven is a type, or Levitical symbol, for sin!

Some say that it is a prophetic anticipation of the false doctrine and tares in the Church and some say it is a prophetic anticipation of the doors opening up to the Gentiles.

Either way this is a very relevant study for a deeper understanding of much of scripture.

Blessings

Dear Giannis,

If you look up what the difference between discussion and debate are you will find that debate is usually a more formal situation where those with opposing views prepare their defense of their own view and also counterarguments against what the opponent brings to the debate. In formal debates often there is designated one who wins the debate.

In informal debates, people still present their views and others bring their own proof of a contrary viewpoint. It can be a friendly discussion or aggressive.

A discussion or dialogue should have a distinctly different tone than a debate where people are attempting to change the point of view of the person who's view does not agree with one's own view. In a discussion, we should try to be more generous to one another, not trying to convince another so much as present a differing viewpoint on Scripture. It is not always easy to be gracious but we do need to be honest and try to explain our own view with precise language and Scriptural support. And we may strongly disagree on the matters involved in a topic but we should not engage in defamation of the other in a discussion. But we can point out where someone is inconsistent in presenting their view or in need of exhortation (which is never fun to do but at times what the Holy Spirit wants of us.

Going on to the other point of your post, Jesus did say that He was going to heaven to prepare a place for the disciples and believers. I believe it is the New Heaven ad New Earth primarily, but also a dwelling for us on this heaven/earth merger where God is always with us and in us and we with Him and in us, we will ever have direct access to God as the New Jerusalem is figuratively the Holy of Holies of the heavenly temple that Moses was tasked to pattern the tabernacle after. The Holy of Holies is the only part of the temple/tabernacle that is described as a perfect cube as the New Jerusalem is also described.

See pt. 2

Hello GiGi

Sory for that "debate". I didn't know that "debate" means aggression. I thought it meant just a discussion between two people with different beliefs.

Now about that "city" you may be right but on the other hand didn't Jesus say to the aposles ( John 14:2-3) that He will go to Heaven to prepare houses for them? Do you think this is also figurative?

It is too late here so I will read your answer tomorrow. GBU

Dear Gerald,

I pray that you will be given a kinder disposition towards those who are members of various denominations instead of being so critical. God has called many of these people and set them into His kingdom through Christ, more that you will ever know at this time. It is arrogant to think that as time progresses that the church continues to make progress in understanding truth over what has been known in the past through the Church through the ages, through the Reformation, and through the myriad of divisions since then that result in thousands of denominations.

Having a sincere love for the brethren and a love for the Church, each of which continue in imperfection until Jesus comes to consummate all things, is really virtuous. I rarely hear you commend the Lord's work in building His Church from the time He first said this to His disciples, and if you do, it is reference to your own personal positive experience in a particular congregation in your own life. However, you have posted many times with strong criticisms of others in denominations other than what you are involved in.

Please be more charitable. It is fine to point out errors in doctrine (which the Bible uses for teaching) or practices, but to simply speak derogatorally about denominations or the Church as a whole in past times is really not helpful, nor is it edifying or corrective.

Hello Gerald.

Thanks brother, I have nothing more to add. And I don't think we are that much far away in our beliefs as it seems from our discussion. Forget the Septuagint, I only refered to it in order to make clear some things written in the NT. Have a blessed week.

You can read about these feasts in Leviticus and in Numbers ad Deuteronomy to find out what they were about for the Israelite nation. What they mean is kind of a big question to ask here. I would suggest you try to find any cross references in the NT that explain these feasts from a NT perspective. You can also check out online this topic and get some information. There are varied understandings of what these feasts represent in NT terms. But if you really want a thorough answer to this question that covers so many aspects of each feast, what I suggest would be a good way to start.

Gerald,

Here in this post you are spiritualizing what getting out of Egypt means where the actual text of Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy do not speak of it as such. According to your view of not spiritualizing what is a factual account or literal text then you are just as guilty of this as I am in how I viewed the New Jerusalem. Please, be consistent.

I know that how I interpreted the New Jerusalem does not fit into your dispensational literal approach to Revelation, but your approach does not apply to how others may approach this book. If you spiritualize the Exodus from Egypt, then certainly I can apply a similar Scriptural approach to text such as Revelation.

I am not trying to drum up a debate but when I find people speak about, promote, and insist on interpreting the Scripture literally, yet they employ other methods such as spiritualizing, seeing some text as figurative, allegorical, metaphorical, or symbolic as you have done with the Exodus as many dispensationalists indeed do, only to criticize a non-dispensationalist when they view some texts as literal, figurative, typological, metaphorical, etc. then I call that hypocrisy as well as a disingenuous way of approaching someone who thinks in a different way.

I am fine with dispensationalists seeking to interpret Scripture literally as well as all the other ways I listed because the Bible language is not all a literal account or statement. Often what is said in Scriptures describe spiritual realties and truth in language that seems to mean something literal, such as apostles being pillars in the foundations of the temple or the New Jerusalem in Revelation or when Jesus tells the disciples and believers they will sit on His throne as He sits on the Father's throne Rev. 3:21.

It would be absurd for these things to be literal, whether human pillars or all believers sitting upon Jesus on His throne and Jesus and all believers sitting on the Father's throne. These are to be viewed as spiritual realities.

Dear Gerald,

The figurative language of this chapter and the apocalyptic nature of the book of Revelation lends toward taking this topic in a figurative sense as representing something very real, substantive, yet spiritual, the body of Christ as the tabernacle in which God dwells forever with the redeemed is quite applicable to this New Jerusalem.

Therefore, although you seem to have a negative view of such things as typology, metaphors, figures, and such, I think it makes the most sense that the New Jerusalem is not an physical city, but demonstrates the state of our eternal union with God.

If you can tell me how apostles can actually be physical pillars and foundations and stones of this city, and how Jesus can actually be a cornerstone, or a body made up of millions of physical individuals then that is another matter, but as it seems to me that such identification is actually figuratively written to reveal realities we just do not yet truly know at this time because we are of the earth now and the New Jerusalem is a heavenly and spiritual reality just as real a physical city.

The fact is that the 40 years wandering has been taken as the Christian norm .

With Jordan being death and heaven ' the promised land' .

There are no giants in heaven or cities to conquer .

It's a real city . Do we not " seek a city that has foundations who's builder is God"?

Let us not spiritualiseceverything or turn into metaphors that are not .

It is a heavenly or spiritual city coming down to an earthly one.

God is Spirit yet has more substance than any chair yiu maybe sitting on .

The visions of Ezekiel and Daniel were not ethereal somethings .

They saw a reality that was very difficult to put into words and many things were " like unto" others were clear and specific .

Our minds need to be sanctified and renewed by the Word of God and we should tread softly not jumping to conclusions .

As we get nearer to the time appointed we will if prayerful get the understanding .

Step by step .

The getting out of Egypt was from slavery to bondage . From being no people to Gods people .it is being ' born again" by the blood of a lamb ,the power of God and the Word of God .

From the dominion of Pharaoh ( Satan) and from the bondage of the world ( Egypt) .

I say again the promised land so often depicted as Heaven and which you repeat is not heaven. For there are no giants in heaven or cities to conquer . The Bible is consistent with itself .

And Jordan is not death but many a hymn has them both .

In truth Jordan does mean descent and is a form of death but it is the death of baptism I being " buried WITH Christ " ..

The wilderness journey from Egypt to Jordon and the borders of Canaan called the promised land took a bit over two years . Not 40. The wilderness journey was boot camp where a civilian is changed into a soldier .Where he learns to obey orders or as the scriptures put it " to prove them " that they learn that " man does not live by bread alone but by everybWord that proceeds from the mouth of God" .

Instead they kept proving God forever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Out of over 2000,000 people who came out of Egypt only TWO actually entered . SomGod was justified in expecting them all to be ready the first time .

By your reasoning if the promised land was heaven then that is quite appalling .

I say again . The church has made the wandering in the wilderness for 40: years as the Christian norm .

They had miracles every day twice on Saturday . The fire and cloudy pillar and much else besides .God did not leave them but they were out of the centre of Gods will. Paul is not speaking about heaven nor is God when " they entered not in because of unbelief ".

The unbelief today we must face and repent of .

We have for instance made the 10 virgins a message and bout the saved and the unsaved . When it's a message fir the church . Has changed the message " behold I stand oat the door and knock " likewise .

The Roman vulgate used corrupt texts full of additions inconsistencies etc and ignore the uncorrupted text .

There are good books anyone can find in a goid Bible book shop that proves the case if anyone wants the truth of the matter .

I reject the Vulgate as much as I reject every other 'version' of the Bible that are so popular but misleading .

And in the end will produce fruit after its own kind also .

There are many good books on which Bible to read and why . Anyone seriously interested in why shouid read them and any goid Bible book shop will have them. From quite basic to the very academic .

I disagree with you completely about ANY extra books and given the p,et Nora of ' versions' of the Bible today that are plainly wrong despite their boasts their " better understanding" rhey should all be thrown away . As for those 'traditionally ' added to the cannon of scripture I hold them false as well despite what you have said and are mistaken in their validity .

The KJV authorised I've never found wanting unreliable or untruthful . After 40 years of study and thought it is still inexhaustible .

I neither need to go elsewhere or recommend anyone else to do so ,it's a path that will lead to trouble and mischief. I'm not clever enough to play cards with the devil or be in such foolish debates .

We are living in the end times and while many claim holy inspiration none show it . So I decline to go down " by pass meadow '.

People have enough trouble understanding the cannon of scripture you wouod seem to want to add to their troubles .

I will not .

GB

What are the 7 feasts and their relevance today?

Chris, in an added note,

It too, about 45 days to travel from Egypt to Mt. Sinai as they travelled day and night in order to increase their distance from the Egyptians before they rested at the Red Sea, then crossing it when the Egyptians were close to overtaking them. then they went straight to the plains before Mt. Sinai.

If you add the 6 weeks or so to get to Mt. Sinai and the 11 days travel from Mt. Sinai to Kadesh-Barnea by way of Mt. Seir they could have made the trip in 8 weeks, but they camped at Mt. Sinai for a year. During that time we must remember that the people demanded an idol be made to represent YHWH, hence the golden calf. This probably led to the travel between Sinai and kdaesh-barnea where the 12 spies were sent out longer as punishment.

Hello Chris

If the Israelites had travelled from Egypt along the Mediterranean coast it was about 125 miles, but that road would take them through Philistia and the Philistines were fierce enemies, even though the route would take a few weeks time. If they took the more travelled trade route up through Mt. Seir, it would take perhaps a few months. From Mt. Sinai to Kadesh Barnea going the route by Mt. Seir. Deut 1:2 says it is about an 11 day journey.

But taking into account that there were perhaps 600K to 1 Million in the traveling group and many goods to carry and animals to accompany them on their journey it would probably take much longer, perhaps as little as 3 months or up to 2 years. But we must remember that they camped for extended periods of time where there was water and grazing land for their flocks and of course with Moses waiting on directions from God and the guidance of the pillar of fire and cloud. When the pillar stayed in one place, the Israelites did, and when the pillar moved on, they followed.

They were camped at Mt. Sinai for one year ( Ex. 19:1; Nu. 10:11) During that time they received the Law from God with all of its ordinances and built the tabernacle along with the ark of the covenant. There was specific order and requirements about who and how all the pieces of the tabernacle were to be carried on their journey. It needed to be set up whenever they comped alogn their journey and also taken down when they departed a camp. So, 2+ years overall before they came to Kadesh barnea where the 12 spies were sent out is probably a likely timeframe for that timeline for their travels from Egypt to Canaan.

Because of their unbelief due to the report of the 23 spies, God added one year for every day the spies were out surveying the land, which was 40 days. Thus they travelled 40 more years in addition to the time they already had spent travelling from Egypt, camping at Sinai and oasis' along the way.

If you remember that 40 years wandering in the wilderness came after they reached the shore of Jordan and God had said to them " Go in and pisses the land for I have given it to you" Then then sent in 12 spies . They all saw the same things . But 10 completely forgot wat God had already done for them in Egypt ,who it was who was with them and what God had promised for the future and said we can't do this there are giants who will make our chikdren bread for them etc. The two faithful spurs saw the same things in the true light of the past oresent and future with God and said we can take it . Democracy won out . and they failed to enter in because of unbelief . Unbelief is not just not believing God it is believing another message .

And God wouid not allow them to enter into the promised land and set thrm wandering in the wilderness for 40 years till that generation had died and those children became " more than conquerors" and entered .

The time frame of leaving Egypt to the promised land can be found piecemeal in Numbers and Deuteronomy .

They were 3 months at mount Sinai .. It gives the time after the Red Sea to Sinai and onwards. . Add them all together and it comes to about 2 1/2 years .

But is it not interesting how the 40 years is so fixed in the mind? And even the great hymns which I live has heaven as the promised land and Jordan death . Not so .

Thus my perception that the church has made the 40: years the norm!

Yet Paul has warned us " not to be like them " which again supports my perception that the gospel has been reduced to simply being BORN again. Getting out of Egypt . He also warned not to be deceived like Eve . She too believed another message and did not believe God.

But I am confident that there will arise a body of people " who will come out of the wilderness terrible as an army with banners leaning upon her beloved " At the moment we seem to lean more upon our own understanding upon our " better understanding" some boast in other version

Amen Azzan77!

Great verse that we should keep in memory!

Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

Isaiah 55:7

Blessings.

Gerald

In my comment I wrote "The Masoretic text is a least a thousand years older than the Septuagint" but it is the opposite. "The Septuagint is 1000 years older than the Masoretic"

Gerald, pt2 about the Septuagint.

The Septuagint also contain what we call the "Apocrypha". But that was done only because the Jews were reading them at that time. Otherwise why would they include those? Later on when the Jews canonized the OT they left them out. In Jesus' time Jews were reading them. Something similar happened to christians. Before the NT was canonized many churches were using books that were left out later on. The "Shepherd of Hermas" was such a book. Another was the "Teaching of the 12 apostles" and many others that were very popular among the christians of the first 3 centuaries AD. But were left out later on.

In my church we use the Masoretic but sometimes I personally consult the Septuagint, although not so often.

And there are churches like the Eastern Ortodox church who have standardized the Septuagint as the right text.

Anyway I don't think it makes that much difference which OT we use.

GBU