To conclude this exchange, though you said that much is being debated, I don't see these exchanges that way. To me, debating carries with the word a sense of one against another. I see all these exchanges as discussion where at times we commend and agree with what others post on a topic and at times we voice our disagreement explaining why we disagree. I see a big difference between debate and discussion. Both can be rigorous an involve deeply held convictions, but one (discussion) is better suited for a forum like this because we all should approach one another in love, compassion, and a desire to bring clarity to the teachings of Scripture so we can build one another up with increasing understanding of God's revelation to us and of one another.
I am glad you won't do surgery on your knee since you had good results from your work on rehabilitating your other knee when you tore that miniscus. May you heal quickly and learn effective ways to accomplish the healing and have a firm resolve to keep at what works until your knee is strong and healthy once again.
Sory for that "debate". I didn't know that "debate" means aggression. I thought it meant just a discussion between two people with different beliefs.
Now about that "city" you may be right but on the other hand didn't Jesus say to the aposles ( John 14:2-3) that He will go to Heaven to prepare houses for them? Do you think this is also figurative?
It is too late here so I will read your answer tomorrow. GBU
Debate does not mean 'aggression' but we must be aware that the serpent wanted a 'debate' with " yea hath God said" . On the face of it a seeker after light . But in reality wanted a religious 'debate' so he could sow his seeds of doubt and error .
A real debate is where people actually listen to each other ( prayerfully) and respond . and if objections are raised over something then the other answers the objection . Not by changing the subject but resolving the objection if it is possible . If it is not and the objection is valid then yiu adjust your own thinking . If you still think you are right but unable because of lack of knowledge or skill then you must stop and in that matter part company so to speak and if possible go and do some research as to why they are still wrong and why you are still right .
Often the trouble is people get too offended ,misunderstand and for different reasons refuse to look at a matter objectively . Or let the Holy Spirit adjudicate in the matter and people take up their polarised positions ( it could be yours and theirs) and what I call head bang ,getting nowhere save grieve the Holy Spirit .
It is writtenHe will lead us into all truth . Thus as long as we are committed to seeking first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness ( not our own) then in a conversation or hearing preaching the Holy Spirit will confirm or not the truth of what is being said . We might not at first know why something is not true but we must honour the conviction of the Holy Spirit and not accept it . On the other hand we might hear something preached that the Holy Spurt confirms as true with our spirit but we don't understand why it is true . Either to lack of biblical understanding and or maturity . But again we must honour the Conviction of the Holy Spirit in the matter and study and be patient and seek Him as to the understanding .
I suppose we must warn abut debates purely on an intellectual level which are unprofitable .
I do not think the NJ is a physical dwelling, but a symbolic representation of spiritual realities. Since it describes it as a bride and wearing clothing and such it is obviously a symbolic vision.
But this does not rule out a physical paradise like Eden or physical homes fit for us to live in that Jesus will provide for us for to live in for eternity. Since we will resurrect in physical bodies that are immortal, the earth will most likely be the perfect and most suitable place for us to live out eternity. We will still do many of the things our physical body does as Jesus' resurrected body did-eating, fellowshipping, walking, etc. We will have plenty to do, I believe. Not as ethereal spirits floating around God's throne as many depict our eternal existence. We will be a people of God and therefore have relationships with each other and most likely collaborative work to do in God's eternal kingdom.
Fair enough but the scriptures give it measurement etc . As do other scriptures. And was not the tabernacle made with hands made after the pattern Moses saw in heaven? ( Hebrews) .
Is not a foreshadow the shadow that goes before the substance giving an outline of that which is to come?
The shadow passing away when the sun is in its fullness .
"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."
Hosea 2:18
"And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely."
Hosea 2:23
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."
There is no need for the other parts and furnishings of the temple/tabernacle because there will no longer be any sacrifices made for sin, nor physical priestly offerings, the old has passed away and our continual, sinless relating with God will be pleasing to Him. Our praises and singing will glorify Him forever and our love from Him and one another will be in accordance with the perfect commands Jesus gave us to sum up God's will for us.
The New Jerusalem will be gloriously shining and transparent in many ways to symbolize our new sinless and pure life through and through to be like that of Jesus' life.
I do believe that this New Jerusalem is highly symbolic of realities that are not physical. But as to Jesus preparing a place for us, He may have meant this spiritual reality depicted as many rooms in His Father's house.
But most likely there is a both a spiritual and a physical reality to what Jesus promised. And if there is a physical, I do not think it is the New Jerusalem as the vision described. More likely Jesus will provide both a paradisal environment as in Eden yet differing in that God's heavenly throne (His dominion, power, authority and right to rule over the body of Christ and new creation) will no longer be separated from the earth as in the beginning. He will always be "God with us".
I don't think we can really know what the physical dwelling might be that Jesus promised. Could be our resurrected physical bodies now glorified as we would be changed and clothed with immortality and righteousness forever. And/or it could be that Jesus brings to the New Earth ready made physical dwellings for believers to dwell in throughout the new heavens and new earth in a terrestial way. It could be that Jesus will bring the blueprint and give us the skills to build for ourselves a fit physical home, community, as well as a society that is built on heavenly immutable principles. Such a physical dwelling will not look like the NJ. see Pt. 3
If you look up what the difference between discussion and debate are you will find that debate is usually a more formal situation where those with opposing views prepare their defense of their own view and also counterarguments against what the opponent brings to the debate. In formal debates often there is designated one who wins the debate.
In informal debates, people still present their views and others bring their own proof of a contrary viewpoint. It can be a friendly discussion or aggressive.
A discussion or dialogue should have a distinctly different tone than a debate where people are attempting to change the point of view of the person who's view does not agree with one's own view. In a discussion, we should try to be more generous to one another, not trying to convince another so much as present a differing viewpoint on Scripture. It is not always easy to be gracious but we do need to be honest and try to explain our own view with precise language and Scriptural support. And we may strongly disagree on the matters involved in a topic but we should not engage in defamation of the other in a discussion. But we can point out where someone is inconsistent in presenting their view or in need of exhortation (which is never fun to do but at times what the Holy Spirit wants of us.
Going on to the other point of your post, Jesus did say that He was going to heaven to prepare a place for the disciples and believers. I believe it is the New Heaven ad New Earth primarily, but also a dwelling for us on this heaven/earth merger where God is always with us and in us and we with Him and in us, we will ever have direct access to God as the New Jerusalem is figuratively the Holy of Holies of the heavenly temple that Moses was tasked to pattern the tabernacle after. The Holy of Holies is the only part of the temple/tabernacle that is described as a perfect cube as the New Jerusalem is also described.
To conclude this exchange, though you said that much is being debated, I don't see these exchanges that way. To me, debating carries with the word a sense of one against another. I see all these exchanges as discussion where at times we commend and agree with what others post on a topic and at times we voice our disagreement explaining why we disagree. I see a big difference between debate and discussion. Both can be rigorous an involve deeply held convictions, but one (discussion) is better suited for a forum like this because we all should approach one another in love, compassion, and a desire to bring clarity to the teachings of Scripture so we can build one another up with increasing understanding of God's revelation to us and of one another.
I am glad you won't do surgery on your knee since you had good results from your work on rehabilitating your other knee when you tore that miniscus. May you heal quickly and learn effective ways to accomplish the healing and have a firm resolve to keep at what works until your knee is strong and healthy once again.
Always good to talk with you.
Sory for that "debate". I didn't know that "debate" means aggression. I thought it meant just a discussion between two people with different beliefs.
Now about that "city" you may be right but on the other hand didn't Jesus say to the aposles ( John 14:2-3) that He will go to Heaven to prepare houses for them? Do you think this is also figurative?
It is too late here so I will read your answer tomorrow. GBU
A real debate is where people actually listen to each other ( prayerfully) and respond . and if objections are raised over something then the other answers the objection . Not by changing the subject but resolving the objection if it is possible . If it is not and the objection is valid then yiu adjust your own thinking . If you still think you are right but unable because of lack of knowledge or skill then you must stop and in that matter part company so to speak and if possible go and do some research as to why they are still wrong and why you are still right .
Often the trouble is people get too offended ,misunderstand and for different reasons refuse to look at a matter objectively . Or let the Holy Spirit adjudicate in the matter and people take up their polarised positions ( it could be yours and theirs) and what I call head bang ,getting nowhere save grieve the Holy Spirit .
It is writtenHe will lead us into all truth . Thus as long as we are committed to seeking first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness ( not our own) then in a conversation or hearing preaching the Holy Spirit will confirm or not the truth of what is being said . We might not at first know why something is not true but we must honour the conviction of the Holy Spirit and not accept it . On the other hand we might hear something preached that the Holy Spurt confirms as true with our spirit but we don't understand why it is true . Either to lack of biblical understanding and or maturity . But again we must honour the Conviction of the Holy Spirit in the matter and study and be patient and seek Him as to the understanding .
I suppose we must warn abut debates purely on an intellectual level which are unprofitable .
Pt. 3
I do not think the NJ is a physical dwelling, but a symbolic representation of spiritual realities. Since it describes it as a bride and wearing clothing and such it is obviously a symbolic vision.
But this does not rule out a physical paradise like Eden or physical homes fit for us to live in that Jesus will provide for us for to live in for eternity. Since we will resurrect in physical bodies that are immortal, the earth will most likely be the perfect and most suitable place for us to live out eternity. We will still do many of the things our physical body does as Jesus' resurrected body did-eating, fellowshipping, walking, etc. We will have plenty to do, I believe. Not as ethereal spirits floating around God's throne as many depict our eternal existence. We will be a people of God and therefore have relationships with each other and most likely collaborative work to do in God's eternal kingdom.
Is not a foreshadow the shadow that goes before the substance giving an outline of that which is to come?
The shadow passing away when the sun is in its fullness .
"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD."
Hosea 2:18
"And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely."
Hosea 2:23
"And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."
Blessings
Pt. 2
There is no need for the other parts and furnishings of the temple/tabernacle because there will no longer be any sacrifices made for sin, nor physical priestly offerings, the old has passed away and our continual, sinless relating with God will be pleasing to Him. Our praises and singing will glorify Him forever and our love from Him and one another will be in accordance with the perfect commands Jesus gave us to sum up God's will for us.
The New Jerusalem will be gloriously shining and transparent in many ways to symbolize our new sinless and pure life through and through to be like that of Jesus' life.
I do believe that this New Jerusalem is highly symbolic of realities that are not physical. But as to Jesus preparing a place for us, He may have meant this spiritual reality depicted as many rooms in His Father's house.
But most likely there is a both a spiritual and a physical reality to what Jesus promised. And if there is a physical, I do not think it is the New Jerusalem as the vision described. More likely Jesus will provide both a paradisal environment as in Eden yet differing in that God's heavenly throne (His dominion, power, authority and right to rule over the body of Christ and new creation) will no longer be separated from the earth as in the beginning. He will always be "God with us".
I don't think we can really know what the physical dwelling might be that Jesus promised. Could be our resurrected physical bodies now glorified as we would be changed and clothed with immortality and righteousness forever. And/or it could be that Jesus brings to the New Earth ready made physical dwellings for believers to dwell in throughout the new heavens and new earth in a terrestial way. It could be that Jesus will bring the blueprint and give us the skills to build for ourselves a fit physical home, community, as well as a society that is built on heavenly immutable principles. Such a physical dwelling will not look like the NJ. see Pt. 3
If you look up what the difference between discussion and debate are you will find that debate is usually a more formal situation where those with opposing views prepare their defense of their own view and also counterarguments against what the opponent brings to the debate. In formal debates often there is designated one who wins the debate.
In informal debates, people still present their views and others bring their own proof of a contrary viewpoint. It can be a friendly discussion or aggressive.
A discussion or dialogue should have a distinctly different tone than a debate where people are attempting to change the point of view of the person who's view does not agree with one's own view. In a discussion, we should try to be more generous to one another, not trying to convince another so much as present a differing viewpoint on Scripture. It is not always easy to be gracious but we do need to be honest and try to explain our own view with precise language and Scriptural support. And we may strongly disagree on the matters involved in a topic but we should not engage in defamation of the other in a discussion. But we can point out where someone is inconsistent in presenting their view or in need of exhortation (which is never fun to do but at times what the Holy Spirit wants of us.
Going on to the other point of your post, Jesus did say that He was going to heaven to prepare a place for the disciples and believers. I believe it is the New Heaven ad New Earth primarily, but also a dwelling for us on this heaven/earth merger where God is always with us and in us and we with Him and in us, we will ever have direct access to God as the New Jerusalem is figuratively the Holy of Holies of the heavenly temple that Moses was tasked to pattern the tabernacle after. The Holy of Holies is the only part of the temple/tabernacle that is described as a perfect cube as the New Jerusalem is also described.
See pt. 2
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