There's those in the OT that passed on that is not considered part of the new covenant and is not part of Christ Church.
They were saved by faith but under the old covenant and rituals that pointed to their Messiah's finish work on the cross freeing them from the bondage that held them captive.
The difference between Israel and the rest of the world was that they were heirs of the land, Davidic and Kingdom promises to Abraham.
(Not to be mistaken for the recipient of the promises shown mentioned in Galatians 3:29 referring to Christ.)
However we all should know there's no entering into the presence of God without the door. John 10:9. That goes for all ages.
These specific promises is after the Gathering of the Gentiles into the body of Christ. "The Church" as shown in Acts 15:14-16
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The old testament prophets prophesied about the gather of Israel, (Post Church) and the Davidic Kingdom.
References-
Romans 11:25-26.
Romans 9:25-26 echoing Hosea 2:23.
Isaiah 40:9
Joel 2:3-32.
Isaiah 11:11-12.
The Lord calls Zion(Israel) his people several times in these verses.
..2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity HIS PEOPLE.
In Isaiah 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.
This is not the Church but a people and elect of God for the purpose of God!
There is but one olive tree; some branches were cut off that we might be grafted in. We should not boast but be thankful, because by doing so, we could be cut off, Romans 11:17-21. We think today the Church, the body of Christ, as being Gentiles, but the Church, the body of Christ, started with the Jews," to the Jew first", that began at Pentecost, Romans 1:16. We, by the grace of God, were added to the olive tree and the Church, the body of Christ.
Of the Jews, the Lord saves a remnant through Christ, then and today, while the rest fell for the reconciliation of the world, us. God is not done with Israel; their return to God through faith in Christ will be like life from the dead, Romans 11:15.
Have we become ignorant of the mystery of their blindness in part and become wise in our own conceits until the fullness, meaning, completion, fulfillment, or the total of the Gentiles? When will that be? Tomorrow, years from now. Are we ready? Are we looking for things that are not coming?
Is our faith strong enough that we are willing to face death? There are many teachings out there, but only one truth. Deception is thick; we are in spiritual warfare, Colossians 2:8, 1 John 4:1. Discernment is critical in spiritual warfare; it enables believers to differentiate between truth and falsehood, particularly in the context of teachings and prophecies.
It is found in prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said in John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
I have not studied dispensationalism. I know a few things, but not the depth of it. I know they support the distinction between Israel and the Church. You have on several occasions said, "but from a dispensational perspective." To me, this is saying interpretation of Scripture must align with dispensationalism. Maybe I am wrong about what you are saying. It must be from the Holy Spirit.
What I have studied the Church began with the people of Israel in Acts 2:41-47. There is only one Church and one body of Christ that includes both Israelites and Gentiles. God's grace provides salvation for Gentiles as well as Israel by faith in Jesus, the same gospel.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
We are fellow heirs of the kingdom of God, 2 Thessalonians 1:5. We will also reign with Christ here on earth, Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These are the words of Paul, Acts 28:30-31 3 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Your question: Why was there a need for Paul at all? Jealousy, Romans 11:11.
A question worth serious thought is this: if the twelve apostles were preaching the same gospel that Paul proclaimed, why was there a need for Paul at all? The Lord did not raise up Paul by accident or redundancy. Christ specifically chose him as "the apostle of the Gentiles" ( Romans 11:13), entrusted with "the dispensation of the grace of God" ( Ephesians 3:2), and revealed to him "the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25).
The twelve, under Christ's earthly ministry, were commissioned to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel, calling for repentance and faith in the promised Messiah, with baptism and law-keeping still in view ( Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 2:38). Their focus remained on the restoration of Israel's kingdom, as foretold by the prophets ( Acts 1:6). Paul's commission, however, centered on the Body of Christ, a new creation in which Jew and Gentile are united by grace through faith alone, apart from works of the law ( Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 3:28).
If their message had been identical, Paul's calling would be unnecessary. Instead, his ministry highlights God's progressive revelation-moving from Israel's prophetic hope to the hidden program of grace now revealed. The need for Paul demonstrates that God was unveiling something new: a gospel not rooted in Israel's covenants, but in Christ's finished work at the cross, freely offered to all.
One must believe in Christ's finished work on the cross alone for salvation-nothing you do, add, or contribute can save you.
Trust only His death, burial, and resurrection for eternal life.
I have stated in posts previously that living a Godly life or not affects acts of commission and omission and the repercussions are much as a ripple effect; or exponentially accentuated beyond how it affects us as individuals. Few probably consider when; for instance they are getting caught up in worldly affections or vices how those around them are not being ministered as they were previously by the spiritual giftings that are without repentance (see Romans 11:29).
I want to "camp out" on that concept for a time because it is such a grave matter. The basic idea here is that the soul becomes sick when it is not being an avenue for healing; or a balm for others in need. It is a grim reality that those in the Body are suffering from all sorts of need; whether it is believers being persecuted who are hungry; tired; thirsty and bewildered or those in our own midst who are crying out for compassion. Yes our own cold hearts are causing deprivation; God ultimately can use another but as Revelation 3:11 warns us our reward is in jeopardy. We should think long and hard about this; as our motivation should be to honor God with our spiritual gifts as Hebrews suggests we must believe He is a rewarder ( Heb. 11:6) of those doing His will. Honor will be given to us or another; no doubt we will praise God seeing another blessed but be heartbroken at our failures at the Bema Seat. Food for thought....
Lest we be as Shake sphere and being full of sound and fury signifying nothing; our "repentance" has to be backed up in actions; not just pious words. And this is the danger with over politicizing anything. Is Jesus really the Lord of our lives?
We need to consider how often the truth puts us in the minority; as well as the one world religion to come that no doubt will engulf all those who call themselves Christians but are trying to build a kingdom on earth through their own agenda.
Judaism is differs greatly from what God instituted upon Israel at Mt. Sinai. Judaism developed out of the 70 year captivity in Babylonian exile where there was not a temple for the priestly ordinances to be practiced. So, the leaders instituted the introduction of Rabbis and Synagogues in place of what was the ancient practices of Israel. This was out of necessity and was probably initially a good way for the Jewish captives to continue worshipping God even though the practices were knew to the religion. But over time, a great number of laws and practices were added to what God had had commanded of them. Jesus sharply criticized these traditions of men and the non-proscribed burden they placed upon the common Jewish people.
The changes that began in Babylon produced the Babylonian Talmud, which was considered sacred writing in addition to the Torah and Prophets (OT) even though God had not inspired the Talmud and other writings of the Rabbis. The addition of these traditions greatly corrupted the religion God had instituted at Sinai. These traditions produced the sects of Pharisees, Sadduccees, Essenes, and others within Judaism.
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Judaism that continued from their is and has been the religion of the Pharisees.
Those who did and do practice Judaism observe the teachings of the Talmud as being equal to the OT. I do not think that this in any way pleases God. And, since most of those who are ethnic Jews today are secular and do not practice their faith with serious observance or faith in God, they are far from being examples of how people should serve and worship God.
Even so, this does not mean that God has forsaken Jews. In the first century, a remnant of Jews turned to Jesus through the true gospel preached by the apostles and disciples of Jesus, who themselves were of this remnant. God is faithful to this remnant, as Paul says in Romans 11:1-7. It is to this remnant that God is faithful.
Indeed, so true, George M. And many more declarations in the Word, that men and science have subsequently 'discovered'. But carnal men will continue to reject & spurn the God of Creation and His Wisdom, preferring to revel in their own powers of logic and reason. Romans 11:33.
I will agree with Spencer. The grace of God is presented in Scripture as a pure gift, not something earned by human effort or maintained by personal strength. Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 2:8-9 that salvation comes "by gracethrough faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Because it is a gift, it rests entirely on God's faithfulness rather than on man's performance. This truth assures believers that their standing before God is grounded in His unchanging promise and not in the fluctuations of their emotions, efforts, or seasons of faith.
Even though a believer may experience moments of doubt, weakness, or wavering, God Himself never wavers in the gift He has given. Romans 11:29 declares that "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance," meaning He does not revoke or retract what He freely bestows. Once received, His grace secures the believer eternally because it flows from His nature and His covenant, not from ours. Where our faith may be fragile, His faithfulness is unshakable, preserving us in Christ and reminding us that what God has given, no one-including ourselves-can take away.
Understanding Dispensationalism by the covenant promises.
I believe the new covenant started after the resurrection. of christ.
I believe the church started to form at Pentecost.
I believe the old covenant ended after the crucifixion of Christ.
I believe James and the other Apostles went after the scattered and lost sheep of Israel announcing that the messiah has come and to bring in the new covenant to them.
The Kingdom gospel, it was never meant to be a Gospel of salvation as they thought.
The good news to them was Christ would some day come and restore the Kingdom.
However, It was postponed!
What they didn't know was that Christ would first come and destroy it by way of the cross and salvation would go to the Gentiles. Amos 9:8-10
All the preaching during Christ ministry was under the old covenant.
There were promises God made to Abraham concerning the Davidic Kingdom hadn't been filled yet.
The Prophet's prophesied a second coming.
Isaiah 11:10-11.
Hosea 5:15.
Notice the sequence here In Acts 15:13-16 as James quotes from Amos 9:11
"And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"After this" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
James says "After this" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David. ect ect..
This parallels Romans 11:25.
This is a kingdom after the call out of the church.
It was largely triggered by the taking of Charlie Kirk's life yesterday causing great angst and frustration with my one friend in particular. It was certainly helpful if anything just thrusting us out like that.
I certainly appreciate your prayers; we are short staffed at work and it is annoying being nagged about catching up etc especially with multiple supervisors but I have gotten used to it I suppose.
This weekend my Aunt is planning to visit my dad probably around 10 or shortly thereafter (Eastern Standard time of course).
I haven't thought of any new things to say to him. BTW FINALLY there was approval for his insurance claim and backpay to MARCH of this year should be coming soon!
i am glad you are solid; whatever differences our eschatology are as it is a support in my behalf. I don't know what your views are on spiritual gifts and would suspect you are a cessationist. It is frustrating with things I know the Lord has shown me because with all these supposed revelations I feel I have to try to prove myself and of course can start doubting. I am certain about being able to discern good and evil in the spiritual realm as to whatever gifts He gives us are irrevocable ( Romans 11:29).
There is more I could say but again I am indebted to your prayer and steadfastness here as of late.
Believers today are part of the "one new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a spiritual organism distinct from Israel.
There is "neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ ( Gal. 3:28).
Romans 9:4 shows that the covenants belonged to Israel-not the Gentiles.
2. Promises: What We Possess
Israel's Covenants
Abrahamic: land and nation ( Gen. 17:7-8).
Mosaic: law and priesthood ( Ex. 19:5-6).
Davidic: kingdom and throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16).
New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34) promised to Israel.
Body of Christ's Blessings
We were once "strangers from the covenants" ( Eph. 2:12).
Now we are blessed with "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3).
Our position is in Christ, not in Israel's covenant structure.
3. Destiny: Where We Are Headed
Israel's Future
Earthly kingdom promises remain for Israel ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28).
Romans 11:25-29 confirms God will fulfill His covenants with them.
Church's Future
Our hope is heavenly, as citizens of heaven ( Phil. 3:20-21).
The mystery revealed to Paul shows the Church is a distinct entity ( Col. 1:25-27).
The Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Summary
Christians in this dispensation are not "spiritual Israel." The covenants remain with Israel, while the Church enjoys a new, heavenly calling through the mystery revealed to Paul. To merge them erases God's faithfulness to Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ.
I believe I do see what Lbooth1955 is trying to display.
If I'm not mistaking he's saying Israel in response to the future Kingdom Gospel a response of works is required to show the fruit of the Spirit of Christ as their conversion.
Their means of salvation will point back at the work of Christ on the Cross.
If their salvation required works and not faith they wouldn't have been broken off.
Israel works performed in the old testament exhibited belief in a future Kingdom but the death of Christ and fellow heirs with the Gentiles wasn't revealed to them even though it was preached.
They couldn't recieve it perhaps because the indwelling of the Spirit hadn't taken place yet.
Romans 11:20 states that Israel was broken off because of unbelief.
Their unbelief is due to blindness and if they weren't blinded salvation would have come under the Levitical priesthood which couldn't save.
There would be no cross.
There would be no ressurection.
There would be no baptism of any sort!
There would also be no grafting in of the Gentiles!
James 1:1 opens the letter: "To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." This is not the Body of Christ but Israel in dispersion. Dispensationally, James is addressing Israel under their prophetic program, not the mystery revealed to Paul ( Eph. 3:1-9). That sets the framework.
2. Faith and Works in James
James 2:14-18 ties justification to works as a demonstration of faith: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (v.24). For Israel under covenant, faith was expected to be shown by obedience and works of righteousness ( Lev. 18:5; Ezek. 18:9). This aligns with the kingdom program, where enduring faithfulness proved genuine belief ( Matt. 24:13).
3. Contrast with Paul's Gospel
Paul, writing to Gentiles and the Body of Christ, stresses that justification is "without works" ( Rom. 3:28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9). Works flow from salvation but never contribute to justification. The moment faith is placed in Christ's finished work ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4), the believer is declared righteous. Any later works are for reward, not for maintaining or proving justification ( 1 Cor. 3:13-15).
4. Why It Cannot Be the Same
If James meant only "works resulting from faith" in the Pauline sense, then his statement in 2:24 directly contradicts Paul. Instead, dispensationalism recognizes they were speaking to different groups under different revelations:
James = Israel's faith proven by works within kingdom promises.
Paul = the Body of Christ justified apart from works, living under grace.
Romans 11:6 settles the distinction: "If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace." Mixing James' works-based proof with Paul's grace-alone gospel collapses the distinction God revealed.
Thanks for your reply, I'm thinking we agree on more than disagree, however regarding James there is a difference of opinion and that's ok. I'll share my thoughts on the matter...
You're statement here caught my attention..."James speaks about 'works' that result from faith ( James 2:14-18), and not faith plus the works of the Law."
James writes "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" ( Jas. 1:1), placing his audience firmly in Israel's covenant program. In James 2:14-18, he insists that "faith without works is dead," concluding, "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (2:24). This is consistent with Israel's kingdom hope, where obedience proved living faith (cf. Lev. 18:5; Matt. 24:13). In contrast, Paul reveals the "mystery" gospel for the Body of Christ, declaring "to him that worketh not, but believeth his faith is counted for righteousness" ( Rom. 4:5). Justification is by grace through faith alone, "not of works" ( Eph. 2:8-9). To merge James with Paul is to blur distinct programs. James requires works as evidence in Israel's prophetic dealings; Paul proclaims immediate justification apart from works under grace. Romans 11:6 makes clear that grace and works cannot mix. Different instructions, different audiences, no contradiction when rightly divided.
It seems that there are some who are having difficulty in understanding and or believing Paul's unique position regarding this present dispensation. Listed below are 4 scriptural references to this FACT.
The Scriptures are very clear in naming Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles.
Here's a structured look with direct support from the Bible.
YES I said from the Bible! If any can show me from the scriptures otherwise I'll be happy to look at it.
Paul Identified as the Apostle to the Gentiles
Romans 11:13 - "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office."
Paul explicitly calls himself the apostle of the Gentiles.
Galatians 2:7-8 - "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)"
Here Paul distinguishes his commission to the Gentiles from Peter's commission to Israel (the circumcision).
Acts 9:15 - The Lord said of Paul to Ananias: "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."
From the very beginning of Paul's calling, his mission to Gentiles was central.
Ephesians 3:1-2 - "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward."
Paul makes clear that his ministry was uniquely tied to God's grace toward the Gentiles.
Summary
Paul is directly and repeatedly identified as the apostle to the Gentiles in Scripture.
His apostleship is distinct from the Twelve, who ministered primarily to Israel.
Through Paul, the "dispensation of the grace of God" was revealed and proclaimed among the nations.
There are those who doesn't think so. They believe that "BELIEVING' is an act of works.
However, throughout scripture it suggests otherwise.
John 5:40 And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye might have life.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him COME UNTO ME, and drink.
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, COME. And let him that heareth say, COME. And let HIM THA ATHIRST COME. (AND WHOSOEVER WILL), let him take the water of life freely.
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:8-9
The invitation also went out to Israel!
BUT THEY HAVENOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. For Esaias saith, Lord, WHO HATH BELIEVED OUR REPORT?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:16-18.
It amazes me that some say God is done with Israel because they didn't respond to the call, but they say there is NO response necessary for the Church.
Paul answers that in Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
There is another group that believe that God only gave ears to hear to a few. "the elect" and the rest of those God loves is left to enter everlasting fire. Makes sense?
1 i. "Do we partake of Israel's tree? Do we fit the description of the wild graft?" As stated previously & without duplicating it here, we do fit the description of the "wild graft", simply because of Paul's reference to Gentiles, & by him speaking to them ( Romans 11:13-24). I realize that you read this differently, but I simply can't do so, for the passage seems very clear to me, especially when Paul warns the Gentiles not to boast of this great privilege (vv18,19); not to do as Israel has done (vv21,22); and a reminder to them of God's Plan/that mystery of both becoming one, once Israel takes off her blinders (vv25,26).
2 i. "Isaiah spoke of God's fruitful plant becoming wild - Isaiah 5:2-4". God planted a good vine, but it brought forth wild grapes. The whole vine became corrupted with rottenness and was to be destroyed (vv5,6). Whereas, Paul's illustration was for the removal of those of Israel who with hardened hearts & blinded eyes, were not fit to take up space and pollute the good Olive Tree & their position given to those of the Gentiles who would hear and believe. The vine was to be destroyed - the Olive Tree was, is and will be preserved.
2 k. "Ezekiel spoke of grafting branches of Judah and Israel together - Eze 37:16-20". This passage came up recently, to which I responded. These verses don't speak of "grafting" rather of 'joining'. The earlier verses (vv1-14) refer to Israel's future political and spiritual revival (the bones coming together and then their breathing into new existence). Then vv15-22, where Judah (Southern Kingdom) and Israel (Northern Kingdom) will one day come together and be joined together as one under Christ. The picture here is of these brothers who were once distinct and separate in both their ruler ship and exile, would one day be joined together, but not engrafted one into the other. To Page 3.
Thanks Lbooth1955. That was an extensive list of verses you shared to examine. Most of them I do agree with (on their own), in context to the chapter/book, but will only highlight a few requiring comments, using your point structure.
1 c. "Since the church exists now, the most popular identification of the graft is you" (using Romans 11:17). I understand that Paul's use of the natural Olive Tree and the Wild Olive Tree is NOT to compare Israel/blind faithless Israel with the Church, but simply comparing them to the Gentiles. Of course, when God receives the Gentiles by Grace through Faith based on Calvary, then they do become the Church of Christ in union (as one) with believing Israel.
But in Paul's illustration, I see it simply as two distinct trees (of the same genus, but one specially selected, planted and nurtured, and the other, uncultivated, unkempt, fit for nothing). As much as olives from a good tree can't be readily eaten in its natural form, more so from a wild tree whose olives are extremely bitter & best discarded. As a people, Gentiles are that wild Olive Tree fit for nothing, yet so as to be acceptable and nourished by God, He has brought us (those saved through faith) and grafted us into the natural good tree. This doesn't mean these believing Gentiles become spiritual Israel, for we only now partake of the same nourishment and blessings from the root of the tree & nothing else ( Romans 11:17,18). Israel and believing Gentiles are distinct in the Plan and economies of God, but together, by our common faith in Christ, are one as Christ's Church. To Page 2.
Paul never teaches that believers in the Body of Christ can lose salvation, though some verses are misread that way. For example, 1 Corinthians 9:27 warns of being a "castaway," but Paul is referring to disqualification from reward or service, not loss of eternal life. In Galatians 5:4, "fallen from grace" means leaving the principle of grace for law-keeping, not forfeiting salvation. 2 Corinthians 13:5 calls for self-examination of genuine faith, not teaching that salvation can be undone. Likewise, Colossians 1:23 emphasizes perseverance as evidence of true faith.
In contrast, Paul repeatedly assures believers of eternal security. Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing can separate us from Christ's love. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that believers are sealed with the Spirit until redemption. Philippians 1:6 promises that God will complete His saving work. 2 Timothy 1:12 affirms Christ's power to keep what is entrusted to Him. Romans 11:29 states that God's gifts and calling are without repentance.
Thus, the "warning" passages deal with reward, service, and testimony, while Paul's consistent teaching is that salvation itself is secure in Christ.
Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Thank you Lbooth1955 for your understanding of this passage. This of course intrigued me, to the point that I had to re-visit the chapter to learn more. Also, I went through all the Scriptures you cited, but I found that as I read the chapter again (through your lens), it still did not make sense. And here's why:
Romans 11:1-11 is clearly about Israel. Then verse 12, "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world (those who would believe of Jew & Gentile), and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness?
Then in Romans 11:12, Paul introduces the position of the Gentiles in all this. How would the Gentiles benefit from Israel's fall (or temporary blindness)? And if Israel should come, in fullness, into the proper position & relationship to God, how much more the Gentiles' fullness? There could be several thoughts on this last part, but I think that when the fullness of Israel is realized, the richness & beauty of Christ's Church will be made complete. Till now, it is still fragmented (some of Israel saved now and in the Body, others through unbelief, cast off but still to come in when they understand and believe).
And here is where I see Paul taking on a new focus. He's left off the sad situation of Israel, and introduced Gentiles into the picture. As he says clearly in verse 13, "For I speak to YOU Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office". Then going onto verse 16, 'if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump - if the root is holy, so are the branches' and verse 17: "And if some of the branches (Israel) be broken off, and thou (the Gentile Paul is now speaking to from v13), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree". To Page 2.
Romans 11 explains Israel's fall, the temporary place of blessing in God's plan, and Israel's future restoration. Paul uses the picture of an olive tree, with natural branches broken off and a wild graft put in their place (11:17-24). Many conclude this graft is the church, equating it with "spiritual Israel," but this is a mixing of prophecy and the mystery. Romans 11:25-26 is where they meet, yet the graft is not the Body of Christ revealed to Paul in the mystery.
Israel stumbled through unbelief, rejecting Christ ( Rom 11:20; 9:32; 10:2-3). Peter, Hebrews, John, Jesus, Hosea, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel all speak of Israel's degeneration, exile, and promised mercy. Paul had already taught that Israel contained both vessels of wrath and a believing remnant ( Rom 9:21-24; 11:5-7).
Details in the text matter: the olive tree and its root existed before the graft; the graft is addressed personally ("thou"), stands by faith (the same faith unbelieving Israel refused), can be cut off, and is only part of Israel-not all. This does not match all Gentiles, the Body of Christ in this dispensation, or the church as a whole. The graft fits a believing remnant within a covenant context, not the mystery Body revealed later.
We may share similarities with the graft, but our identity is distinct. We are one in Christ, yet a new creature formed by the revelation of the mystery ( Eph 2:15). We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's finished work, not by covenantal faith that can be dead. We partake of promises in Christ, but as His Body, not as branches ( 1 Cor 12:13; Eph 5:30). We are complete in Him apart from covenants ( Col 2:10) and are Abraham's seed by faith, heirs according to promise ( Gal 3:28-29), placed into the fellowship of the mystery-not Israel's prophetic tree.
Knowing our position in Christ keeps us from misreading Romans 11 and wrongly placing ourselves among the grafted branches.
You stated, "The Fulness of the Gentiles will be completed when all of God's elect have been saved at the Last Day".
You are including Paul's kinsmen in the flesh/The nation of Israel in that group.
However, Romans 11:25 reads, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
There's a sequence here you're leaving out! Israel is blinded UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN! It doesn't say the gentiles is blinded along with them!
Paul is referencing the Gentiles within the Church which includes Jews.
and his people which he foreknew. Pauls kinsmen IN THE FLESH. Not the Jewish Brothern in Christ or he wouldn't have said "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness. Romans 10:1-3.
Paul says in Romans 11:5
Even so then at this "PRESENT TIME" also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(THIS MEANS THIS GROUP IS SAVED NOW!)
Verses 25-26 reads, "
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel "SHALL BE SAVED": as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
This is a separate group out of that nation and SHALL BE SAVED means future.
Thank you Lbooth1955; very well analysed and written. Even as the Apostle Paul addressed the Gentiles specifically (in Romans 11:13) that in that short discourse ( Romans 11:13-26) the Church was the 'organism' grafted into the good Olive Tree (Israel of God's Kingdom) and not the other way around. That we have nothing to be proud of, "Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." If it were not for the Olive Tree (the true Israel rooted in the faith of Abraham, Isaac, & Israel), we Gentiles would have no right or access to be grafted into that tree to receive salvation by the same faith and of the blessings that follow.
Indeed, Israel and the Church will always be separate. Only when "Israel shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away" ( 2 Corinthians 3:15,16), and the 'mystery of the united Church of Jew & Gentile' be fully realized in all being gathered in. But I perceive that Israel shall endure much suffering, when at the end, the remnant among them will see the One Whom they pierced ( John 19:37: once at the crucifixion; and then finally reminded, affirmed and believed on at His second Coming, Zechariah 12:9-11). Blessings.
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
One more important note here Brother Jesse on the last thing I stated.
Romans 11:25-26. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
This was written after the Church was already formed!
So this is distinct from what happened in Acts where we see the Church formed, Jews and Gentiles with the Gentiles being grafted in and Israel "as a nation " blinded. Their ministry which they performed under the Levitical economy and covenant was in part.
I don't have the time and luxury of proof reading my texts.
Continuing.
When someone wants you to look at his "Great readings" to authenticate their salvation they want you to look at the work of their own hands!
They over emphasize the work of the Holyspirit working in their lives.
That sometimes can be a proud heart.
The Holyspirit should be using you to point people to the sustainer of our faith and that may not show up with ink on paper that displays your great intellect but it shows in the love for the Brothern. 1 John 4:21. and this is not a performance, it's a virtue.
Dispensationalism. a way of interpreting the Bible that divides history into distinct "dispensations" or periods, each characterized by a unique way God relates to humanity. A key aspect is the distinction between Israel and the Church, with the belief that God has separate plans for each.
We certainly see that between the Old and new testament. If not the Church wouldn't be considered a mystery.
A core principle is the literal interpretation of Scripture, particularly prophecy, believing that God's promises to Israel will be literally fulfilled.
That's clearly emphasized in the New and old testament.
Salvation is by the cross but is obviously displayed differently.
We look back on it. It's displayed historically.
and we're persuaded and sealed.
Israel was persuaded to believe in the works they performed pointing to something that was to come. There was no cross behind them to look back to.
If we stop there we see two different economies being pointed to the work of a person. The Lamb of God.
That's a form of dispensationalism before we even get into eschatology.
It's the way and time the entire message of salvation for the Church and the Jews makes it dispensational.
c) Where does Scripture teach that ethnic Israel will inherit eternally an earthly life and the Church will inherit a heavenly life?
I can't speak for those who might believe this, since I don't see it this way. But I understand that both believing Israel and believing Gentile will share together eternally with Jesus in His 1000 year reign ( Revelation 20:4-6), & then at some future date, in the New heavens & New Earth ( Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:12,13).
d) Where does Scripture teach that the church came into being because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah?
The Scripture that comes to mind is Acts 13:46-48, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". And Paul also shared this in Romans 11:11. I realize that these accounts speak generally of the Jews who stood against the message of the Cross; some no doubt, would have believed and brought into the Church. To Page 3.
This blindness and hardening is temporary until the appointed number of gentiles are saved. After this, God will again return to fulfil His Promises to them as a nation; even as Paul writes, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" ( Romans 11:26,27). Isaiah 59:20,21 and Jeremiah 31:31-37 are further assurances by God that what He has decreed will come to pass upon His Elect (Israel).
Even after Jesus' resurrection, the disciples still wanted to know when the kingdom would be restored to Israel ( Acts 1:6-7). Jesus COULD have told them, 'do you still not understand, God has rejected Israel because of their unbelief & rejection of Me - and only those who believe on Me will be with Me in My Kingdom'. Rather, Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." It was not a question of when this would happen but that in God's Time, it would happen when the remnant of Israel would one day see, be convicted and believe, & the kingdom would be restored, with Jesus truly as her King & Savior.
b) RT goes against Old Testament prophecies concerning the nation of Israel.
Consider the prophecies in Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37. In these passages, Ezekiel foresaw the following:
Israel's sinfulness and apostasy (36:16-18); Israel's dispersion amongst the nations (36:19-21); Israel's re-gathering back into the land of Israel (36:22-24); God's blessing of Israel under the new covenant (36:26-27); God would make his name known amongst the nations through His kindness and fulfilled promises to the nation of Israel (36:23,36). Onto Page 4.
a) Replacement Theology (RT) goes against the NT teaching concerning this.
Paul lays it all out very clearly in Romans chaps 9 to11 (chapters you know very well). He writes of Israel's previous position as God's chosen people, their current position as those blinded and in unbelief, and as 'branches that were broken off'. But Paul certainly doesn't leave it there as though that is how it will be forever. Consider these specific references of his:
Romans 11:11-12: Did they, the nation of Israel stumble & fall beyond recovery? Not at all. Rather, because of their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke Israel to envy. But if their fall meant riches for the world, and their loss meant riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will Israel's fullness (restoration) bring. This is Paul writing, not as a learned Jew but under revelation in the NT economy, where the Promises of God still await fulfilment. So Israel's current position of having stumbled isn't a fall that they won't recover from. At present, their transgression (rejection of Jesus) has led to grace now offered to the world, but Paul anticipates a time when greater riches shall flow from their fullness, when they are restored and God's promises are fulfilled for them, most likely after they shall see & know the one "they have pierced" ( Zechariah 12:8-10).
Continuing in Paul's letter, Romans 11:23 states, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again". Israel can be grafted into the Olive tree and will happen to those who believe amongst them. And lest believing gentiles should, in pride, think that Israel has been rejected forever, he wrote: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". To Page 3.
There's those in the OT that passed on that is not considered part of the new covenant and is not part of Christ Church.
They were saved by faith but under the old covenant and rituals that pointed to their Messiah's finish work on the cross freeing them from the bondage that held them captive.
The difference between Israel and the rest of the world was that they were heirs of the land, Davidic and Kingdom promises to Abraham.
(Not to be mistaken for the recipient of the promises shown mentioned in Galatians 3:29 referring to Christ.)
However we all should know there's no entering into the presence of God without the door. John 10:9. That goes for all ages.
These specific promises is after the Gathering of the Gentiles into the body of Christ. "The Church" as shown in Acts 15:14-16
"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"AFTER THIS" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
The old testament prophets prophesied about the gather of Israel, (Post Church) and the Davidic Kingdom.
References-
Romans 11:25-26.
Romans 9:25-26 echoing Hosea 2:23.
Isaiah 40:9
Joel 2:3-32.
Isaiah 11:11-12.
The Lord calls Zion(Israel) his people several times in these verses.
..2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity HIS PEOPLE.
In Isaiah 11:11 the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.
This is not the Church but a people and elect of God for the purpose of God!
Blessings Brother!
There is but one olive tree; some branches were cut off that we might be grafted in. We should not boast but be thankful, because by doing so, we could be cut off, Romans 11:17-21. We think today the Church, the body of Christ, as being Gentiles, but the Church, the body of Christ, started with the Jews," to the Jew first", that began at Pentecost, Romans 1:16. We, by the grace of God, were added to the olive tree and the Church, the body of Christ.
Of the Jews, the Lord saves a remnant through Christ, then and today, while the rest fell for the reconciliation of the world, us. God is not done with Israel; their return to God through faith in Christ will be like life from the dead, Romans 11:15.
Have we become ignorant of the mystery of their blindness in part and become wise in our own conceits until the fullness, meaning, completion, fulfillment, or the total of the Gentiles? When will that be? Tomorrow, years from now. Are we ready? Are we looking for things that are not coming?
Is our faith strong enough that we are willing to face death? There are many teachings out there, but only one truth. Deception is thick; we are in spiritual warfare, Colossians 2:8, 1 John 4:1. Discernment is critical in spiritual warfare; it enables believers to differentiate between truth and falsehood, particularly in the context of teachings and prophecies.
It is found in prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said in John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
God bless,
RLW
I have not studied dispensationalism. I know a few things, but not the depth of it. I know they support the distinction between Israel and the Church. You have on several occasions said, "but from a dispensational perspective." To me, this is saying interpretation of Scripture must align with dispensationalism. Maybe I am wrong about what you are saying. It must be from the Holy Spirit.
What I have studied the Church began with the people of Israel in Acts 2:41-47. There is only one Church and one body of Christ that includes both Israelites and Gentiles. God's grace provides salvation for Gentiles as well as Israel by faith in Jesus, the same gospel.
Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:5-6 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
We are fellow heirs of the kingdom of God, 2 Thessalonians 1:5. We will also reign with Christ here on earth, Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These are the words of Paul, Acts 28:30-31 3 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Your question: Why was there a need for Paul at all? Jealousy, Romans 11:11.
God bless,
RLW
A question worth serious thought is this: if the twelve apostles were preaching the same gospel that Paul proclaimed, why was there a need for Paul at all? The Lord did not raise up Paul by accident or redundancy. Christ specifically chose him as "the apostle of the Gentiles" ( Romans 11:13), entrusted with "the dispensation of the grace of God" ( Ephesians 3:2), and revealed to him "the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" ( Romans 16:25).
The twelve, under Christ's earthly ministry, were commissioned to preach the gospel of the kingdom to Israel, calling for repentance and faith in the promised Messiah, with baptism and law-keeping still in view ( Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 2:38). Their focus remained on the restoration of Israel's kingdom, as foretold by the prophets ( Acts 1:6). Paul's commission, however, centered on the Body of Christ, a new creation in which Jew and Gentile are united by grace through faith alone, apart from works of the law ( Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 3:28).
If their message had been identical, Paul's calling would be unnecessary. Instead, his ministry highlights God's progressive revelation-moving from Israel's prophetic hope to the hidden program of grace now revealed. The need for Paul demonstrates that God was unveiling something new: a gospel not rooted in Israel's covenants, but in Christ's finished work at the cross, freely offered to all.
One must believe in Christ's finished work on the cross alone for salvation-nothing you do, add, or contribute can save you.
Trust only His death, burial, and resurrection for eternal life.
G&P
I have stated in posts previously that living a Godly life or not affects acts of commission and omission and the repercussions are much as a ripple effect; or exponentially accentuated beyond how it affects us as individuals. Few probably consider when; for instance they are getting caught up in worldly affections or vices how those around them are not being ministered as they were previously by the spiritual giftings that are without repentance (see Romans 11:29).
I want to "camp out" on that concept for a time because it is such a grave matter. The basic idea here is that the soul becomes sick when it is not being an avenue for healing; or a balm for others in need. It is a grim reality that those in the Body are suffering from all sorts of need; whether it is believers being persecuted who are hungry; tired; thirsty and bewildered or those in our own midst who are crying out for compassion. Yes our own cold hearts are causing deprivation; God ultimately can use another but as Revelation 3:11 warns us our reward is in jeopardy. We should think long and hard about this; as our motivation should be to honor God with our spiritual gifts as Hebrews suggests we must believe He is a rewarder ( Heb. 11:6) of those doing His will. Honor will be given to us or another; no doubt we will praise God seeing another blessed but be heartbroken at our failures at the Bema Seat. Food for thought....
Lest we be as Shake sphere and being full of sound and fury signifying nothing; our "repentance" has to be backed up in actions; not just pious words. And this is the danger with over politicizing anything. Is Jesus really the Lord of our lives?
We need to consider how often the truth puts us in the minority; as well as the one world religion to come that no doubt will engulf all those who call themselves Christians but are trying to build a kingdom on earth through their own agenda.
Christ comes after Antichrist controls to world.
Pt. 2
Judaism is differs greatly from what God instituted upon Israel at Mt. Sinai. Judaism developed out of the 70 year captivity in Babylonian exile where there was not a temple for the priestly ordinances to be practiced. So, the leaders instituted the introduction of Rabbis and Synagogues in place of what was the ancient practices of Israel. This was out of necessity and was probably initially a good way for the Jewish captives to continue worshipping God even though the practices were knew to the religion. But over time, a great number of laws and practices were added to what God had had commanded of them. Jesus sharply criticized these traditions of men and the non-proscribed burden they placed upon the common Jewish people.
The changes that began in Babylon produced the Babylonian Talmud, which was considered sacred writing in addition to the Torah and Prophets (OT) even though God had not inspired the Talmud and other writings of the Rabbis. The addition of these traditions greatly corrupted the religion God had instituted at Sinai. These traditions produced the sects of Pharisees, Sadduccees, Essenes, and others within Judaism.
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Judaism that continued from their is and has been the religion of the Pharisees.
Those who did and do practice Judaism observe the teachings of the Talmud as being equal to the OT. I do not think that this in any way pleases God. And, since most of those who are ethnic Jews today are secular and do not practice their faith with serious observance or faith in God, they are far from being examples of how people should serve and worship God.
Even so, this does not mean that God has forsaken Jews. In the first century, a remnant of Jews turned to Jesus through the true gospel preached by the apostles and disciples of Jesus, who themselves were of this remnant. God is faithful to this remnant, as Paul says in Romans 11:1-7. It is to this remnant that God is faithful.
I will agree with Spencer. The grace of God is presented in Scripture as a pure gift, not something earned by human effort or maintained by personal strength. Paul makes it clear in Ephesians 2:8-9 that salvation comes "by gracethrough faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Because it is a gift, it rests entirely on God's faithfulness rather than on man's performance. This truth assures believers that their standing before God is grounded in His unchanging promise and not in the fluctuations of their emotions, efforts, or seasons of faith.
Even though a believer may experience moments of doubt, weakness, or wavering, God Himself never wavers in the gift He has given. Romans 11:29 declares that "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance," meaning He does not revoke or retract what He freely bestows. Once received, His grace secures the believer eternally because it flows from His nature and His covenant, not from ours. Where our faith may be fragile, His faithfulness is unshakable, preserving us in Christ and reminding us that what God has given, no one-including ourselves-can take away.
Grace and peace
I believe the new covenant started after the resurrection. of christ.
I believe the church started to form at Pentecost.
I believe the old covenant ended after the crucifixion of Christ.
I believe James and the other Apostles went after the scattered and lost sheep of Israel announcing that the messiah has come and to bring in the new covenant to them.
The Kingdom gospel, it was never meant to be a Gospel of salvation as they thought.
The good news to them was Christ would some day come and restore the Kingdom.
However, It was postponed!
What they didn't know was that Christ would first come and destroy it by way of the cross and salvation would go to the Gentiles. Amos 9:8-10
All the preaching during Christ ministry was under the old covenant.
There were promises God made to Abraham concerning the Davidic Kingdom hadn't been filled yet.
The Prophet's prophesied a second coming.
Isaiah 11:10-11.
Hosea 5:15.
Notice the sequence here In Acts 15:13-16 as James quotes from Amos 9:11
"And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
"After this" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
James says "After this" I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David. ect ect..
This parallels Romans 11:25.
This is a kingdom after the call out of the church.
The Lord will gather his people Israel".
Here's the activity in that gathering.
Amos 9:9-10.
Blessings.
I certainly appreciate your prayers; we are short staffed at work and it is annoying being nagged about catching up etc especially with multiple supervisors but I have gotten used to it I suppose.
This weekend my Aunt is planning to visit my dad probably around 10 or shortly thereafter (Eastern Standard time of course).
I haven't thought of any new things to say to him. BTW FINALLY there was approval for his insurance claim and backpay to MARCH of this year should be coming soon!
i am glad you are solid; whatever differences our eschatology are as it is a support in my behalf. I don't know what your views are on spiritual gifts and would suspect you are a cessationist. It is frustrating with things I know the Lord has shown me because with all these supposed revelations I feel I have to try to prove myself and of course can start doubting. I am certain about being able to discern good and evil in the spiritual realm as to whatever gifts He gives us are irrevocable ( Romans 11:29).
There is more I could say but again I am indebted to your prayer and steadfastness here as of late.
I'll talk to you again soon; Lord willing.
Agape; Rich P
1. Identity: Who We Are
Body of Christ, not Israel
Believers today are part of the "one new man" ( Eph. 2:15), a spiritual organism distinct from Israel.
There is "neither Jew nor Greek" in Christ ( Gal. 3:28).
Romans 9:4 shows that the covenants belonged to Israel-not the Gentiles.
2. Promises: What We Possess
Israel's Covenants
Abrahamic: land and nation ( Gen. 17:7-8).
Mosaic: law and priesthood ( Ex. 19:5-6).
Davidic: kingdom and throne ( 2 Sam. 7:12-16).
New Covenant ( Jer. 31:31-34) promised to Israel.
Body of Christ's Blessings
We were once "strangers from the covenants" ( Eph. 2:12).
Now we are blessed with "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3).
Our position is in Christ, not in Israel's covenant structure.
3. Destiny: Where We Are Headed
Israel's Future
Earthly kingdom promises remain for Israel ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28).
Romans 11:25-29 confirms God will fulfill His covenants with them.
Church's Future
Our hope is heavenly, as citizens of heaven ( Phil. 3:20-21).
The mystery revealed to Paul shows the Church is a distinct entity ( Col. 1:25-27).
The Body of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Summary
Christians in this dispensation are not "spiritual Israel." The covenants remain with Israel, while the Church enjoys a new, heavenly calling through the mystery revealed to Paul. To merge them erases God's faithfulness to Israel and diminishes the uniqueness of the Body of Christ.
Grace and Peace
I believe I do see what Lbooth1955 is trying to display.
If I'm not mistaking he's saying Israel in response to the future Kingdom Gospel a response of works is required to show the fruit of the Spirit of Christ as their conversion.
Their means of salvation will point back at the work of Christ on the Cross.
If their salvation required works and not faith they wouldn't have been broken off.
Israel works performed in the old testament exhibited belief in a future Kingdom but the death of Christ and fellow heirs with the Gentiles wasn't revealed to them even though it was preached.
They couldn't recieve it perhaps because the indwelling of the Spirit hadn't taken place yet.
Romans 11:20 states that Israel was broken off because of unbelief.
Their unbelief is due to blindness and if they weren't blinded salvation would have come under the Levitical priesthood which couldn't save.
There would be no cross.
There would be no ressurection.
There would be no baptism of any sort!
There would also be no grafting in of the Gentiles!
There would be no first fruit.
There would be no salvation!
Blessings and Goodnight.
1. Audience and Dispensation
James 1:1 opens the letter: "To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." This is not the Body of Christ but Israel in dispersion. Dispensationally, James is addressing Israel under their prophetic program, not the mystery revealed to Paul ( Eph. 3:1-9). That sets the framework.
2. Faith and Works in James
James 2:14-18 ties justification to works as a demonstration of faith: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (v.24). For Israel under covenant, faith was expected to be shown by obedience and works of righteousness ( Lev. 18:5; Ezek. 18:9). This aligns with the kingdom program, where enduring faithfulness proved genuine belief ( Matt. 24:13).
3. Contrast with Paul's Gospel
Paul, writing to Gentiles and the Body of Christ, stresses that justification is "without works" ( Rom. 3:28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9). Works flow from salvation but never contribute to justification. The moment faith is placed in Christ's finished work ( 1 Cor. 15:1-4), the believer is declared righteous. Any later works are for reward, not for maintaining or proving justification ( 1 Cor. 3:13-15).
4. Why It Cannot Be the Same
If James meant only "works resulting from faith" in the Pauline sense, then his statement in 2:24 directly contradicts Paul. Instead, dispensationalism recognizes they were speaking to different groups under different revelations:
James = Israel's faith proven by works within kingdom promises.
Paul = the Body of Christ justified apart from works, living under grace.
Romans 11:6 settles the distinction: "If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace." Mixing James' works-based proof with Paul's grace-alone gospel collapses the distinction God revealed.
Grace and Peace
Thanks for your reply, I'm thinking we agree on more than disagree, however regarding James there is a difference of opinion and that's ok. I'll share my thoughts on the matter...
You're statement here caught my attention..."James speaks about 'works' that result from faith ( James 2:14-18), and not faith plus the works of the Law."
James writes "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" ( Jas. 1:1), placing his audience firmly in Israel's covenant program. In James 2:14-18, he insists that "faith without works is dead," concluding, "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (2:24). This is consistent with Israel's kingdom hope, where obedience proved living faith (cf. Lev. 18:5; Matt. 24:13). In contrast, Paul reveals the "mystery" gospel for the Body of Christ, declaring "to him that worketh not, but believeth his faith is counted for righteousness" ( Rom. 4:5). Justification is by grace through faith alone, "not of works" ( Eph. 2:8-9). To merge James with Paul is to blur distinct programs. James requires works as evidence in Israel's prophetic dealings; Paul proclaims immediate justification apart from works under grace. Romans 11:6 makes clear that grace and works cannot mix. Different instructions, different audiences, no contradiction when rightly divided.
Grace and Peace
Please see next pg.
It seems that there are some who are having difficulty in understanding and or believing Paul's unique position regarding this present dispensation. Listed below are 4 scriptural references to this FACT.
The Scriptures are very clear in naming Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles.
Here's a structured look with direct support from the Bible.
YES I said from the Bible! If any can show me from the scriptures otherwise I'll be happy to look at it.
Paul Identified as the Apostle to the Gentiles
Romans 11:13 - "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office."
Paul explicitly calls himself the apostle of the Gentiles.
Galatians 2:7-8 - "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)"
Here Paul distinguishes his commission to the Gentiles from Peter's commission to Israel (the circumcision).
Acts 9:15 - The Lord said of Paul to Ananias: "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."
From the very beginning of Paul's calling, his mission to Gentiles was central.
Ephesians 3:1-2 - "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward."
Paul makes clear that his ministry was uniquely tied to God's grace toward the Gentiles.
Summary
Paul is directly and repeatedly identified as the apostle to the Gentiles in Scripture.
His apostleship is distinct from the Twelve, who ministered primarily to Israel.
Through Paul, the "dispensation of the grace of God" was revealed and proclaimed among the nations.
Peace and Grace
Part 1
There are those who doesn't think so. They believe that "BELIEVING' is an act of works.
However, throughout scripture it suggests otherwise.
John 5:40 And ye will not COME TO ME, that ye might have life.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him COME UNTO ME, and drink.
HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, COME. And let him that heareth say, COME. And let HIM THA ATHIRST COME. (AND WHOSOEVER WILL), let him take the water of life freely.
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt CONFESS WITH THY MOUTH THE LORD JESUS, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:8-9
The invitation also went out to Israel!
BUT THEY HAVENOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. For Esaias saith, Lord, WHO HATH BELIEVED OUR REPORT?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:16-18.
It amazes me that some say God is done with Israel because they didn't respond to the call, but they say there is NO response necessary for the Church.
Paul answers that in Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
There is another group that believe that God only gave ears to hear to a few. "the elect" and the rest of those God loves is left to enter everlasting fire. Makes sense?
See part 2.
1 i. "Do we partake of Israel's tree? Do we fit the description of the wild graft?" As stated previously & without duplicating it here, we do fit the description of the "wild graft", simply because of Paul's reference to Gentiles, & by him speaking to them ( Romans 11:13-24). I realize that you read this differently, but I simply can't do so, for the passage seems very clear to me, especially when Paul warns the Gentiles not to boast of this great privilege (vv18,19); not to do as Israel has done (vv21,22); and a reminder to them of God's Plan/that mystery of both becoming one, once Israel takes off her blinders (vv25,26).
2 i. "Isaiah spoke of God's fruitful plant becoming wild - Isaiah 5:2-4". God planted a good vine, but it brought forth wild grapes. The whole vine became corrupted with rottenness and was to be destroyed (vv5,6). Whereas, Paul's illustration was for the removal of those of Israel who with hardened hearts & blinded eyes, were not fit to take up space and pollute the good Olive Tree & their position given to those of the Gentiles who would hear and believe. The vine was to be destroyed - the Olive Tree was, is and will be preserved.
2 k. "Ezekiel spoke of grafting branches of Judah and Israel together - Eze 37:16-20". This passage came up recently, to which I responded. These verses don't speak of "grafting" rather of 'joining'. The earlier verses (vv1-14) refer to Israel's future political and spiritual revival (the bones coming together and then their breathing into new existence). Then vv15-22, where Judah (Southern Kingdom) and Israel (Northern Kingdom) will one day come together and be joined together as one under Christ. The picture here is of these brothers who were once distinct and separate in both their ruler ship and exile, would one day be joined together, but not engrafted one into the other. To Page 3.
1 c. "Since the church exists now, the most popular identification of the graft is you" (using Romans 11:17). I understand that Paul's use of the natural Olive Tree and the Wild Olive Tree is NOT to compare Israel/blind faithless Israel with the Church, but simply comparing them to the Gentiles. Of course, when God receives the Gentiles by Grace through Faith based on Calvary, then they do become the Church of Christ in union (as one) with believing Israel.
But in Paul's illustration, I see it simply as two distinct trees (of the same genus, but one specially selected, planted and nurtured, and the other, uncultivated, unkempt, fit for nothing). As much as olives from a good tree can't be readily eaten in its natural form, more so from a wild tree whose olives are extremely bitter & best discarded. As a people, Gentiles are that wild Olive Tree fit for nothing, yet so as to be acceptable and nourished by God, He has brought us (those saved through faith) and grafted us into the natural good tree. This doesn't mean these believing Gentiles become spiritual Israel, for we only now partake of the same nourishment and blessings from the root of the tree & nothing else ( Romans 11:17,18). Israel and believing Gentiles are distinct in the Plan and economies of God, but together, by our common faith in Christ, are one as Christ's Church. To Page 2.
Beautifully written, thanks.
I think we're pretty close with this one...
Here's my take!
Paul never teaches that believers in the Body of Christ can lose salvation, though some verses are misread that way. For example, 1 Corinthians 9:27 warns of being a "castaway," but Paul is referring to disqualification from reward or service, not loss of eternal life. In Galatians 5:4, "fallen from grace" means leaving the principle of grace for law-keeping, not forfeiting salvation. 2 Corinthians 13:5 calls for self-examination of genuine faith, not teaching that salvation can be undone. Likewise, Colossians 1:23 emphasizes perseverance as evidence of true faith.
In contrast, Paul repeatedly assures believers of eternal security. Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing can separate us from Christ's love. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that believers are sealed with the Spirit until redemption. Philippians 1:6 promises that God will complete His saving work. 2 Timothy 1:12 affirms Christ's power to keep what is entrusted to Him. Romans 11:29 states that God's gifts and calling are without repentance.
Thus, the "warning" passages deal with reward, service, and testimony, while Paul's consistent teaching is that salvation itself is secure in Christ.
God Bless.
Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Blessings
Romans 11:1-11 is clearly about Israel. Then verse 12, "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world (those who would believe of Jew & Gentile), and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness?
Then in Romans 11:12, Paul introduces the position of the Gentiles in all this. How would the Gentiles benefit from Israel's fall (or temporary blindness)? And if Israel should come, in fullness, into the proper position & relationship to God, how much more the Gentiles' fullness? There could be several thoughts on this last part, but I think that when the fullness of Israel is realized, the richness & beauty of Christ's Church will be made complete. Till now, it is still fragmented (some of Israel saved now and in the Body, others through unbelief, cast off but still to come in when they understand and believe).
And here is where I see Paul taking on a new focus. He's left off the sad situation of Israel, and introduced Gentiles into the picture. As he says clearly in verse 13, "For I speak to YOU Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office". Then going onto verse 16, 'if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump - if the root is holy, so are the branches' and verse 17: "And if some of the branches (Israel) be broken off, and thou (the Gentile Paul is now speaking to from v13), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree". To Page 2.
Thanks for your reply.
WE CAN NOT BE GRAFTED BRANCHES - Romans 11
Romans 11 explains Israel's fall, the temporary place of blessing in God's plan, and Israel's future restoration. Paul uses the picture of an olive tree, with natural branches broken off and a wild graft put in their place (11:17-24). Many conclude this graft is the church, equating it with "spiritual Israel," but this is a mixing of prophecy and the mystery. Romans 11:25-26 is where they meet, yet the graft is not the Body of Christ revealed to Paul in the mystery.
Israel stumbled through unbelief, rejecting Christ ( Rom 11:20; 9:32; 10:2-3). Peter, Hebrews, John, Jesus, Hosea, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel all speak of Israel's degeneration, exile, and promised mercy. Paul had already taught that Israel contained both vessels of wrath and a believing remnant ( Rom 9:21-24; 11:5-7).
Details in the text matter: the olive tree and its root existed before the graft; the graft is addressed personally ("thou"), stands by faith (the same faith unbelieving Israel refused), can be cut off, and is only part of Israel-not all. This does not match all Gentiles, the Body of Christ in this dispensation, or the church as a whole. The graft fits a believing remnant within a covenant context, not the mystery Body revealed later.
We may share similarities with the graft, but our identity is distinct. We are one in Christ, yet a new creature formed by the revelation of the mystery ( Eph 2:15). We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's finished work, not by covenantal faith that can be dead. We partake of promises in Christ, but as His Body, not as branches ( 1 Cor 12:13; Eph 5:30). We are complete in Him apart from covenants ( Col 2:10) and are Abraham's seed by faith, heirs according to promise ( Gal 3:28-29), placed into the fellowship of the mystery-not Israel's prophetic tree.
Knowing our position in Christ keeps us from misreading Romans 11 and wrongly placing ourselves among the grafted branches.
GB
You stated, "The Fulness of the Gentiles will be completed when all of God's elect have been saved at the Last Day".
You are including Paul's kinsmen in the flesh/The nation of Israel in that group.
However, Romans 11:25 reads, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
There's a sequence here you're leaving out! Israel is blinded UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN! It doesn't say the gentiles is blinded along with them!
Paul is referencing the Gentiles within the Church which includes Jews.
and his people which he foreknew. Pauls kinsmen IN THE FLESH. Not the Jewish Brothern in Christ or he wouldn't have said "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness. Romans 10:1-3.
Paul says in Romans 11:5
Even so then at this "PRESENT TIME" also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(THIS MEANS THIS GROUP IS SAVED NOW!)
Verses 25-26 reads, "
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel "SHALL BE SAVED": as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
This is a separate group out of that nation and SHALL BE SAVED means future.
God bless.
Indeed, Israel and the Church will always be separate. Only when "Israel shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away" ( 2 Corinthians 3:15,16), and the 'mystery of the united Church of Jew & Gentile' be fully realized in all being gathered in. But I perceive that Israel shall endure much suffering, when at the end, the remnant among them will see the One Whom they pierced ( John 19:37: once at the crucifixion; and then finally reminded, affirmed and believed on at His second Coming, Zechariah 12:9-11). Blessings.
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Greetings
Romans 11:25-26. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
This was written after the Church was already formed!
So this is distinct from what happened in Acts where we see the Church formed, Jews and Gentiles with the Gentiles being grafted in and Israel "as a nation " blinded. Their ministry which they performed under the Levitical economy and covenant was in part.
There's two groups here.
There's no replacement.
Blessings.
I'm multitasking and forgot a few things.
I don't have the time and luxury of proof reading my texts.
Continuing.
When someone wants you to look at his "Great readings" to authenticate their salvation they want you to look at the work of their own hands!
They over emphasize the work of the Holyspirit working in their lives.
That sometimes can be a proud heart.
The Holyspirit should be using you to point people to the sustainer of our faith and that may not show up with ink on paper that displays your great intellect but it shows in the love for the Brothern. 1 John 4:21. and this is not a performance, it's a virtue.
Dispensationalism. a way of interpreting the Bible that divides history into distinct "dispensations" or periods, each characterized by a unique way God relates to humanity. A key aspect is the distinction between Israel and the Church, with the belief that God has separate plans for each.
We certainly see that between the Old and new testament. If not the Church wouldn't be considered a mystery.
A core principle is the literal interpretation of Scripture, particularly prophecy, believing that God's promises to Israel will be literally fulfilled.
That's clearly emphasized in the New and old testament.
Salvation is by the cross but is obviously displayed differently.
We look back on it. It's displayed historically.
and we're persuaded and sealed.
Israel was persuaded to believe in the works they performed pointing to something that was to come. There was no cross behind them to look back to.
If we stop there we see two different economies being pointed to the work of a person. The Lamb of God.
That's a form of dispensationalism before we even get into eschatology.
It's the way and time the entire message of salvation for the Church and the Jews makes it dispensational.
Romans 11:25-26.
Dispensationalism!
Blessings
c) Where does Scripture teach that ethnic Israel will inherit eternally an earthly life and the Church will inherit a heavenly life?
I can't speak for those who might believe this, since I don't see it this way. But I understand that both believing Israel and believing Gentile will share together eternally with Jesus in His 1000 year reign ( Revelation 20:4-6), & then at some future date, in the New heavens & New Earth ( Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:12,13).
d) Where does Scripture teach that the church came into being because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah?
The Scripture that comes to mind is Acts 13:46-48, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". And Paul also shared this in Romans 11:11. I realize that these accounts speak generally of the Jews who stood against the message of the Cross; some no doubt, would have believed and brought into the Church. To Page 3.
This blindness and hardening is temporary until the appointed number of gentiles are saved. After this, God will again return to fulfil His Promises to them as a nation; even as Paul writes, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" ( Romans 11:26,27). Isaiah 59:20,21 and Jeremiah 31:31-37 are further assurances by God that what He has decreed will come to pass upon His Elect (Israel).
Even after Jesus' resurrection, the disciples still wanted to know when the kingdom would be restored to Israel ( Acts 1:6-7). Jesus COULD have told them, 'do you still not understand, God has rejected Israel because of their unbelief & rejection of Me - and only those who believe on Me will be with Me in My Kingdom'. Rather, Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." It was not a question of when this would happen but that in God's Time, it would happen when the remnant of Israel would one day see, be convicted and believe, & the kingdom would be restored, with Jesus truly as her King & Savior.
b) RT goes against Old Testament prophecies concerning the nation of Israel.
Consider the prophecies in Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37. In these passages, Ezekiel foresaw the following:
Israel's sinfulness and apostasy (36:16-18); Israel's dispersion amongst the nations (36:19-21); Israel's re-gathering back into the land of Israel (36:22-24); God's blessing of Israel under the new covenant (36:26-27); God would make his name known amongst the nations through His kindness and fulfilled promises to the nation of Israel (36:23,36). Onto Page 4.
a) Replacement Theology (RT) goes against the NT teaching concerning this.
Paul lays it all out very clearly in Romans chaps 9 to11 (chapters you know very well). He writes of Israel's previous position as God's chosen people, their current position as those blinded and in unbelief, and as 'branches that were broken off'. But Paul certainly doesn't leave it there as though that is how it will be forever. Consider these specific references of his:
Romans 11:11-12: Did they, the nation of Israel stumble & fall beyond recovery? Not at all. Rather, because of their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke Israel to envy. But if their fall meant riches for the world, and their loss meant riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will Israel's fullness (restoration) bring. This is Paul writing, not as a learned Jew but under revelation in the NT economy, where the Promises of God still await fulfilment. So Israel's current position of having stumbled isn't a fall that they won't recover from. At present, their transgression (rejection of Jesus) has led to grace now offered to the world, but Paul anticipates a time when greater riches shall flow from their fullness, when they are restored and God's promises are fulfilled for them, most likely after they shall see & know the one "they have pierced" ( Zechariah 12:8-10).
Continuing in Paul's letter, Romans 11:23 states, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again". Israel can be grafted into the Olive tree and will happen to those who believe amongst them. And lest believing gentiles should, in pride, think that Israel has been rejected forever, he wrote: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". To Page 3.