The Jews in spite of themselves have been an unbroken line and witness to the Law and the Prophets of God .
As far back as Abraham and by him to Noah and by him to Adam .
Every 'solution' that has ever been tried to break that line and ruin that witness has failed because God promised He wouid always keep a remnant.
When Adolph Hitler spoke of a 'final solution' to the Jewish question he clearly identified every other solution that had gone before and did not work . In putting into effect thst awful solution he identified himself as being of the same nature as all those who had tried other solutions before him.
Anyone and I mean anyone who seeks similar solutions or worse that final solution reveal themselves to be of the same nature as Adolph Hitler .
Be very careful then who you align yourselves with lest you find yourself on the wrong side .
You may not agree with everything Isreal does nor am I saying that Isreal is righteous in the sight of God but it is God who has kept them and is fir His own honour and glory . And will be fully vindicated for doing so while those who have thought to trample them under their feet will be proven to be the most base .
And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. Ezekiel 36:20-22.
Reasons for the Mockery:
Israel often turned away from God to worship other gods, which made them seem foolish and weak to other nations who saw their actions as a disgrace.
However, God said But I had pity for mine holy name!
In verse 23 God says "And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. Gods holy name and commitment is tied to the promises he gave to Abraham!
Psalms 121:4 reads, "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
There seems to be envy towards this nation because of Gods faithfulness.
They say "God doesn't favor Israel over other People."
I believe they put the emphasis on the wrong side of the relationship.
God is not showcasing Israel as a great lovely nation when he deals with them.
God is using that crooked backsliding nation to showcase himself and his faithfulness, his personal relationship as a Husband to them.
God is showcasing his name through Israel to the whole world!
To say God is done with THE NATION Israel and the church is the true Israel is disrespect for God's Power and doubt in God's Deliverance.
These promises speaks of Restoration for Israel and a future kingdom here on earth.
I've mentioned before throughout history Satan has tried to annihilate the Jews. Ethnic Israel!
This would destroy the promises of God and attack his name.
Today it's done with Replacement Theology.
This is spearheaded by some who are Covenant Theologist.
They prescribe the word elect in certain passages that is for Israel to the Church.
They say these promises in the OT is fulfilled in the Church.
This is replacement theology!
The majority of Reformed churches and theologians hold an amillennial view of eschatology, which interprets the millennium of Revelation symbolically and sees the present age as a spiritual reign of Christ. While not universally held, amillennialism is considered the traditional Reformed position, having been affirmed by the Reformers who largely accepted the amillennial views of Augustine.
Augustine views originated from the allegorical hermeneutics of Origen a 3rd-century theologian.
Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine, Missler said that preaching a physical, future return of Christ to overthrow earthly rulers became politically unpopular. This led to a "spiritualizing" of the message.
Augustine formalized this allegorical approach into a system of belief that defined the Millennium not as a literal 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ, but as Christ's spiritual reign in the hearts of believers during the current Church Age.
The Roman Catholic Church adopted Augustine's amillennialism, and, as most Protestant denominations later inherited this view, despite other disagreements with Roman theology.
By spiritualizing the Old Testament prophecies, amillennialism accuses God of not keeping his unconditional covenants with the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and makes God to be a covenant breaker!
The way the Replacement Theologist interpret the end times concerning the promises made out to Israel.
Gabriel's promise to Mary about Jesus inheriting the throne of his father David points to a literal political throne, not just a heavenly one. Since that throne did not exist during Christ's first coming, its establishment must be future.
A consistent, literal hermeneutic leads to a premillennial, dispensational view of prophecy. In contrast, the more one leans towards allegorical interpretation, the more one is likely to favor amillennial or other less-literal views.
Some Covenant Theologist say Israel lost their prominent position in Gods program because of the rejection of their Messiah.
However, when you mention the faithfulness of God and his holy name at stake then they say "No where does Paul state that ethnic Israel is the inheritor of the promises and covenant made to Abraham.
The rebuttal to that is that same Paul said in Romans 9:3-4
"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
However, Israel unfaithfulness throughout history never altered Gods plans of redemption for the nation because he is a God that cannot lie.
God has done to Israel what he said he would do to them in Leviticus 26:1-41.
Our righteous God exercised his chastening as mentioned in Leviticus 26:1-41
And our faithful God who keeps his promises shows his faithfulness in Leviticus 26:42-46. (Please Pay attention to verse 45.)
"Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45) But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Verse 45 says, "But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
One of those unfulfilled promises is 2 Samuel 7:10-16.
This is not fulfilled in the Church!
The prophecy of Christ coming through the line of Abraham has never been a debated topic between the Theologies.
Christ fulfilled that but there are still a Davidic throne and Kingdom and restoration for the Nation of Israel that has not.
Deuteronomy 29:21-19 through Deuteronomy 30:1-9 gives a description of Israel history on into the future.
I am again reminded. That " No prophecy is of man's own private interpretation " Yet man consistently subjects the scriptures to his thinking and reasoning than subjects his reasoning to the Holy Spirit who is the only one who " knoweth the things of God".
Augustine has had a red flag in my thinking almost since I became a Christian by the grace of God ..
I confess I don't know why but you have in some measure given some reason for it .
I've learnt that the Spirit in me can grasp the truth far more quicker than my mind and what the Holy Spirit understands and bares witness to in my spirit takes a while for my mind to catch up so to speak .
The mind must always be ' satisfied' in that it is brought into conformity with the mind Christ . And in so doing our ,ice is transformed .
When I got saved my evangelical pastor once said that to being BORN again everyone is in agreement but as for anything else exoecialky about the last days there are as many opinions as there are pastors .
Wether he shouid have told me that at the time is a moot point . But you have in part shown it to be true .
How is it that " when the Holy Spirit shall come He will lead you into all truth" yet there is so much opinion but Beverly little truth .Truly the Spurit is outside the church knocking on the door ".
I will say this though. God did divorce Isreal because of her spiritual adultery . Which is why the Bride of Christ will be made up predominantly of Gentiles though not exclusively so .
But God has not forsaken them and as you put it Romans 9 biblical argument of Paul proving it shouid be the end of the matter .to any spiritually minded person but never will be to a carnal minded one .
The Roman church has always been at the root of antisemitsm for she has replaced Christ and exalted man where The Lord should be . And put Mary where she never was .
The knocking on the church door ( Rev 3/4) is a call to the whole church to repent . Revival
The Reformers did great work in correcting Soteriology.
However they go far enough.
They come up short on the Eschatology of those days. They continued in the views of Augustine.
Here's an article on Martin Luther representing a well known fact!
Martin Luther developed a deep and virulent hatred toward Jews, particularly later in his life, and expressed his antisemitic views in writing.
Though his earlier work was more sympathetic, he became enraged by Jews' continued refusal to convert to Christianity and his later publications demanded harsh persecution.
Luther's shift in attitude toward Jews
Early life (pre-1540s): In his 1523 work That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew,
Luther argued that Jews were treated poorly by Christians, which was why they had not converted. He believed that if he treated them gently, they would see the light of his reformed Christianity.
Later life (post-1540): After his efforts to convert Jews largely failed,
Luther's attitude shifted to bitter hostility. This culminated in his 1543 treatise On the Jews and Their Lies, a 65,000-word polemic calling for the violent persecution of Jewish people.
End article.
Replacement theologist can be linked to paving the road for antisemitism!
This is Satan at work!
He's been trying to wipe out the Jews since the beginning.
Psalms 121:4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Luther,s understanding was but the first green shoot of the re-emergent church long 'dead' and buried save for a " very few" remnant who were hunted down by Rome.
I have 'heard' a sermon of his on John 17 on yiu tube and clearly by that his understanding grew .
But lutherans thought at some point " let us make a nane for ourselves and stay here and build us a tower."
Thinking that his revelation like Peter's was the whole truth . And when the Lord began to reveal more he rejected it as it did not 'fut' his theological revelation . So God found someone outside the camp so to speak . Calvinists being persecuted by the lutherans But when God brought more light asvto baptism the Calvinist's persecuted them in their turn.
John Wesley brought sanctification . The then Quakers something of the Holy Spirit.
And so it has gone on .I will build MY church " says the Lord " and the gates of hell shall not ire wil against it " gates attack no one .There will be no more denominations nor need of one . But that church which is His body needs to repent of her unbelief and come out of the wilderness not leaning upon her own understanding but on the arm of her beloved .
" Terrible as an army with banners"
Not a bunch of ex slaves arguing with each other about" who is the greatest " and jockeying for position .
The promised land is not heaven nor Jordan death though it is like baptism symbolic of it .meaning descender .
We can't know much about " the power of His resurrection" if we're not also " made conformable with His death "
Jesus said "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
And then we come to verse 20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
He's standing outside knocking, not to come in!
He's calling out individuals! " if any man hear my voice,"
You also quoted, "Mathew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The gates of hell shall not prevail against it!
What a saying that is!
Gates are put up for defense!
He's saying these defensive gates will not prevail against the Church!
This is one of many reason why I believe the Antichrist can't come until the Church is removed.
It puts 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 in perspective and also the saints mentioned in Daniel 7:25 couldn't be talking about the Church.
Hi (again); Perhaos the need to clarify something . Every true born child of God is called to be in the Bride Chrust. It is not automatic . Like the Olympics race you need to qualify to run the race . Therefore to qualify you must be born again .
That is the" high calling " in Christ Jesus .
Again the knocking on the door is a call to the whole church the promise however is to those who have ears to hear to them"The 5 foolish virgins were not ready though they were in the company of those that were .
In everything but one all 10 were the same . The foolishness was thinking for instance that being BORN again was the becall and end all of our " so great a Salvation " When it is as it were but the 'S' of it.For not only are we saved from but saved also fir..
They were not ready because their " vessels" were not full and thus were unrecognisable as the Bride and were barred being too late with the words " I know you not " and were barred from the " marriage" .
The unrepentant sinner is barred from the kingdom with the words " I never knew you" .Not the same thing at all .
When I speak of repenting I'm thinking about all those traditions of men that denominations have made for themselves the embracing of the worlds langauge .
Any church of God is an embassy for the Kingdom of God and every child of Hod an ambassador.of light .
It represents or should like any embassy the interests and objectives of its own government or ruler . Was not the "lesser light" to rule the darkness? Does it not bare witness to the fact that even I. The darkest night when the moon still shines bares witness that not only is the sun still shining but that there is coming a perfect day !
Bad news for those who " love darkness more than the light " good news for all who want something radically better than what this workd offers .
Hello thanks for your reply . It is worth noting that the last King of Isreal was blind . The last Judge was blind and was not the high priest before Samuel blind as well?Thus the Ladocean church or church age is found blind as well .
But along side that one is the Philadelphian church who in its own eyes was " poor":but the Lord says was " rich".
I also am of the conviction that the Bride who is full of the Spirit and well aware of the great need for Him and which is by the prayers and labours is restraining the spirit of the antichrist will be translated to " meet the Lord in the air " then the world will enter into that " great tribulation":and the time of the anti christ and the Jews will face" Jacobs trouble".
But our f main focus and singie eye must be " looking for and hastening to the coming of the Lord " " For unto them that look for Him shall He appear the send time "
He is coming first, FOR His bride then will come WITH His bride .
As for the gates of hell is it not extraordinary how false concepts and ideas creep into the church and Gods people thinking?
Community is a newer one . The church is NOT a community .
Which is where there is common external interests .It is not a 'social' gathering.
But the church is a body a temple of the living God .
And consider how much the world loves the word ' community' and how often it uses it .
Humans is another . I am not a human . I'm a person . I am part of Mankind . Not a dog kind a fish kind or some sort of ape kind I am part of Mankind on the foundation that "every seed brings forth fruit after its own kind ".
I am called to love God above all and before all and to live my neighbour as myself .
What is a neighbour? If not someone of another household and of another father .
What then is a brother or sister ? If not someone of the same household and of the same Father.
Thus I think the knocking on the door of the church is a call to the whole church to repent .
Maybe some dispensationalists accuse Reformed/Covenant theology of "replacement theology" because they do not understand what Reformed/Covenant theology actually teach. They do not tach replacement theology. You can easily find that out if you check out reformed articles on this topic.
I do not know why you brought up replacement theology in your post, but I want you to be properly informed about how your use it erroneously.
Also, as you continued in your post it seemed that you think that holding a Reformed/Covenant theology viewpoint will inevitably lead to anti-semitism. This also is a fallacy. This is not to say that anti-semitism in the church hasn't been or is not now a problem, because it is, and we should speak against it. However, we truly need to correctly identify what anti-semitism is.
And believing that there is only one people of God across all time as those who believe as Abraham does is not anti-semetic.
Then to go on and intimate that those who adhere to non-dispensational views of Israel and the church is from the devil is also uncalled for on this forum.
Maybe I have misunderstood you and welcome you clarifying what you truly meant. But I think that instead of speaking insults labels and mischaracterizations of those who differ in theology than you is wrong.
I am not trying to get into a debate nor an argument with you. I consider you and friend in the Lord and am speaking to you from that point of view.
We Gentiles have too big an idea of ourselves . And I have seen open air preachers boasting over some Jews about the second covenant as if by they had not come into it by the grace of God .
That " new covenant " which was to replace the old one was FIRST given to the Jews . It is their birthright though they know it not . It is ALWAYS to the Jews first then the gentiles.
The Holocaust will in the light of what the scriptures foretells is coming on the gentiles will be seen as a great mercy in that light .
For we are fast approaching the end of the " time of the gentiles" who in their turn are rejecting the gospel.
But by no means all .
The gentile ' believers ' are we not grafted into the 'natural' ?
The if the salvation of the gentiles by their ( jews ) unbelief was and is so glorious how much the salvation of the Jews it will be like " the riding of the dead" says Paul .
There have only bern two peoples in Gods eyes . Jews and gentiles .
God chose Noah out of his generation .
Out of his generation God chose Abraham .
Out of his generation came Jesus Christ .the "last Adam" .
And God will make of Twain one new Man .
In Rev 3/4 the Lord said they who overcome " I will make to sit IN my throne even as I overcame and sit IN my Father's throne".
It is a very " high calling":to which all believers are called to .
The church has made the wilderness years the Christian norm . Jordan death and the promised land heaven . Not so.
Going through the wilderness was meant to be but boot camp where we learnt that " Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that cometh from the mouth of God" .
It took them only just over 2 years I think to go from Egypt to the banks of Jordan .
Paul warns us all " not to be like them who entered not in because of unbelief "
Unbelief is not just not believing God its also actually believing the wrong message .
Here's why it matters and why these particular promises is was not fulfilled in the Church.
The church was never brought out of Egypt and promised a land here on earth with the tabernacle of David being restored with this action being a spectacle for all the world to see to glorify God.
Just a few of many Examples;
1) Ezekiel 36:23-24 "And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
2) Jeremiah 16:14-15"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
3) Isaiah 48:11-12 "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Is the Church also the new Jacob?
In the book of Esther we see a clear demonic plot to annihilate the Jewish people through Haman,
In Ezekiel 38:12-19 we see a demonic force of Gog of Magog.
In Revelation 12:13-17 we see where the dragon persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
The woman here is Israel not the Church!
Throughout history Satan has tried to annihilate the Jews. Ethnic Israel!
This would destroy the promises of God and attack his name.
Today it's done with Replacement Theology.
It's getting late but I have much more to say on this.
I, too, could say much more on this to you, but I do not think it will be fruitful because we come from opposing approaches to what Scriptures reveal about God's people, what God promised to His people beginning with Adam and into the church age, which includes the promises to Abraham.
You see these promises to Abraham as being completely earthly in nature, but covenant/reformed believers see these earthy promises as the type of what God's people receive in Christ, which is the inheritance of true Israel, the antitype, which are spiritual in nature.
I know that you do not think along the lines of covenant reformed theology. But there is no anti-semitism in this theology. We do not wish to eliminate ethnic Israel, persecute them, or to treat them with malice. But we do see them as one ethnicity among a multitude across history who need salvation in Jesus in the same way and without this salvation by faith, they are lost, judged as NOT Israel by Scripture unless or until, as individuals they repent and turn to Jesus in faith for salvation.
We do not see ethnic Israel as any more special or preferred by God as any other people group. Yet we do see that ethnic Israel was chosen by God to be the repository of God's revelation in Scriptures, and as the genetic line that will bring forth the Seed promised in Gen. 3:16. who is the Messiah, whom they rejected at that time. Jesus said the the kingdom would be taken from that generation of Jews and given to a people that would bear fruit unto salvation. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish religious rites and the scattering of the Jews in 70 A.D. was the judgement of God upon that unbelieving, stiff-necked generation of Jews. From 70 A.D. on, ethnic Israel was cast out, with the exception of those throughout the centuries who turned to Jesus in faith.
You may think that this is equates as "replacement" of Israel. But it truly is not. It is what the NT Scriptures and the words of Jesus teach.
I think you have forgotten that not only is God the God of all flesh .
But the Lord is going to physically in the same body as He left with come back to this earth and his feet will once again stand on the mount of Olives .He will first come FOR His bride to the air ;some of which will not see death. Then after the marriage of the Lamb will come WITH His Bride to the earth .
I don't know how God will do it . But this is certain when all things are brought into subjection and under Christs feet He Himsef will submit Himself to the Father so "that God will fill all in all ".
This will be something quite different from the beginning.For there that creation was corruptible.
If God filleth all in all that will not be so .
And even death will die being the last enemy .
For death will be swallowed up in victory .
For the whole of creation groaneth writhing for the manifestation of the sons of God .
What Isreal is is a part fulfilment of the promises of God in the last 2/3 chapters of Deuteronomy . They are not just one of many nations they are destined to be " the head not the tail "of all the nations.
All Jews in spite of themselves and which includes the State of Isreal represent an unbroken line and witness to the Law and Prophets of Almighty God .
Undoubtedly they need to be saved and are as lost as any gentile and can only be saved through Jesus Christ .
Every 'solution' that has ever been tried is to break that line ( back to Abraham) and destroy that witness by every means possible for that would prove that God does not exist and His Law does not matter .
But despite everything the Jews hold up the Old Testament as the Word of God true in ever6 respect as well as being their history . Which is extraordinary because that' history 'and record going back into recorded history as far back as Abraham and by him to Noah and by him to Adam and thus a record of Man's roots shows their failures ,their sins ,Gods judgements etc . Yet still maintain it is the truth . This is not like the world which puts its best foot forward and does not parade its failures .or faults .( British included) who once was the head of all the nations but is now fast becoming the tail .
" Oh how the mighty have fallen"
The reason why there is so much antisemitism is founded upon that fact .and in direct proportion to the worlds rebellion against God will be the rise of antisemitism .
It is not they who have made it so . But God who has made them and will keep them to the end not because of their righteousness but because of His forHe is faithful to His Word .
He has also made them and the State of Isreal a direct challenge to all of Islams spurious and vain assertions . The Middle East wars are not political problems but theological ones .
For the 'god'' of Islam thay call ' Allah' is not the God of Abraham if it was there would be little or no problem there .
Romans 11 nowhere says that ungrafted Israelites will be among the saved of vs. 26. It is with Gentile believers and Israelite believers that God causes the two to be one new man which is the household of God ( Eph. 2:11-19; Gal 3:28-29).
It is my hope and prayers that in this generation, God will bring a multitude of Jews into the household of God by faith in Jesus, to become members of this "one new man", the one and only household of God, the true Israel.
These are my understandings from Scripture. I believe that the NT interprets the OT and therefore, what was promised as earthly and fleshly blessings to Israel in the OT is described as salvation and eternal life, spiritual blessings in the NT, with the OT earthly promises being the type and the NT re-interpreting of these same promises being the antitype, the fulfillment.
Blessings to you Gerald. I only responded to you because you posted to me. I want to be thorough in describing my understanding because it is too easy to get into arguments over "sound bytes" of doctrine, which I want to avoid. I welcome your replies.
It is good for brethren to speak about the things of God for " iron sharpens iron" and " deep tap deep"
Are we not all looking through a glass darkly " but not so dark that we can't have faith in the present and hope for the future .
The trouble with text is misunderstandings can easily occur . Due perhaps in not being skilled enough in expressing our thoughts or omitting things . Either way if patient with one another and don't jump to conclusions we surely with Gods help grow in our understanding of the scriptures and above all of Him who inspired them .
For I hold to the fact that even as the Holy Spirit was needed to write the scriptures then the same Holy Spirit Iand in the same measure is needed to understand what is written .I also believe and relight on the Lords promise that "He will lead US into all truth " So as long as we are seeking the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness rather than trying to establish our own we can be assured that He will do so .
And if we go astray a little He will tell us that truth also and put us right .
When I was a small child for a little while I thought putting my fingers under the running hot water tap and moving my fingers in the water that made it go hot . Because clearly every time I did it ,the water went hot!
If we jump to conclusions we rarely arrive at the truth .
1 John . Little children . Young men . " ye fathers you know Him who is from the beginning "
It cannot be said that a BORN child of God does not know their father . But I warrant not as much as " ye fathers "
I have not said there are two people of God as in children of God born again etc .
What I do say is as Paul does they were first given the oracles of God and as far as they know hold up those scriptures as the Word of the living God . Despite them not keeping it .
It is God who has kept them for HIS sake and for His own honour and glory .
And will ALWAYS keep a remnant. For out of that remnant will come a people as sands on the beach
On down through the centuries, including the OT, God has always been faithful to this remnant chosen by election through grace.
And God has brought to faith in Jesus all who are of this remnant and will do so until it is time for Jesus to return.
But Paul said in Rom. 11:1-2 that God has not cast away His people (Israel) which he "foreknew" that is predestined for salvation. and He goes on to cite the account of despondent Elijah in his flight from Ahab and Jezebel where God assured this prophet of the remnant God had preserved for Himself who remained faithful-the 7000 men who had not committed idolatry.(vs.2-4)
In the remaining ch. 11 Paul goes on to describe true Israel as the natural, good olive tree that both believing Jews and Gentiles are grafted into. Paul also states that the blindness of unbelieving Jews is not necessarily permanent for those God did cast away for unbelief, indicating that more Israelites will be received and ingrafted again upon these being brought to faith in Jesus. But those who remain in unbelief are not part of the true Israel, though they are ethnically Israeli.
Vs. 26 does say 'And so, all Israel shall be saved." I understand this "so" to mean that "in this way" (Israelites who are brought to faith in Jesus since His resurrection and ascension and down through the centuries) will "all" Israel be saved. They will become members of Christ's body through faith and be ingrafted into the one and only people of God who have the "faith of Abraham".
Unbelieving Ethnic Israelites are not a people of God in addition to believers in Jesus being a people of God. But this does not preclude that throughout the centuries God does not bring salvation through faith in Jesus to many Israelites whom He foreknew. And this does not preclude a time when God will bring about a great ingathering of Israelites to Jesus by faith. That is my hope!
But I do not think that unbelieving Jews will be included as God's people. See Pt. 4
Sorry for my clumsiness . My understanding of Scripture is that the state of Isreal and by that the Jews will make a " covenant of death" with the antichrist who will bring A peace to the Middle East . But they will reject him when he sits in the rebuilt temple as thus claim he is God . In hs wrath he will send all the worlds armies against Jerusalem surrounding it having killed who knows how many . Unless God intervened they woukd be totally destroyed it is then they call upon God in very truth to save them it is the the Lord will come and that is when they " see him who they pierced "and mourn But the Lord will save that Remanent as He has always done .
For His own names sake .
They will be saved in a day .
I do know that Christians shouild have mercy on them and not side with their enemies , The scriptures also say we will "make them jealous"
I do not pretend to understand it all but Romans 9 is it when Paul expresses how he saw things and finishes up full of wonder and awe at the wisdom and might I of God and if with the Holy Spirits help we follow his thinking in that chapter we just might get a little awestruck ourselves .
Judaism is differs greatly from what God instituted upon Israel at Mt. Sinai. Judaism developed out of the 70 year captivity in Babylonian exile where there was not a temple for the priestly ordinances to be practiced. So, the leaders instituted the introduction of Rabbis and Synagogues in place of what was the ancient practices of Israel. This was out of necessity and was probably initially a good way for the Jewish captives to continue worshipping God even though the practices were knew to the religion. But over time, a great number of laws and practices were added to what God had had commanded of them. Jesus sharply criticized these traditions of men and the non-proscribed burden they placed upon the common Jewish people.
The changes that began in Babylon produced the Babylonian Talmud, which was considered sacred writing in addition to the Torah and Prophets (OT) even though God had not inspired the Talmud and other writings of the Rabbis. The addition of these traditions greatly corrupted the religion God had instituted at Sinai. These traditions produced the sects of Pharisees, Sadduccees, Essenes, and others within Judaism.
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Judaism that continued from their is and has been the religion of the Pharisees.
Those who did and do practice Judaism observe the teachings of the Talmud as being equal to the OT. I do not think that this in any way pleases God. And, since most of those who are ethnic Jews today are secular and do not practice their faith with serious observance or faith in God, they are far from being examples of how people should serve and worship God.
Even so, this does not mean that God has forsaken Jews. In the first century, a remnant of Jews turned to Jesus through the true gospel preached by the apostles and disciples of Jesus, who themselves were of this remnant. God is faithful to this remnant, as Paul says in Romans 11:1-7. It is to this remnant that God is faithful.
I trust that God will deal with ethnic Israel as He has planned to do since before creation. He saw fit that the nation of Israel was laid waste for nearly 2000 years and the Jews were divested of their temple, religious ordinances, land, etc from thence on. This was a very devasting and severe reckoning He brought to the Jews since the 1st century.
The land of Israel has been controlled by other dynasties for this long time period until the British Mandate once again established the land of ancient Israel as a national home for the Jews, which began in 1948. This nation has had such difficulties with its Islamic neighbors ever since. Which I find disturbing and sad. I pray for peace for this nation and that those who act against Israel's current existence will be brought to a place of acceptance and peace with Israel. I hate the terrorism that affects Israel and the people that live near Israel. I support Israel's right to continue to exist because of the Balfour Declaration since Britain had control of the Middle East/Palestine at that time.
The Jews are just a small portion of ethnic Israel and those in Israel now are a very small portion of the Jews worldwide. The Jews in the U.S. outnumbers those who now reside in Israel (approximately 7.5 million - 6.5 million) yet, in the U.S. the Jews are 2.4% of the population, which is a small number compared to the 350+ million U.S. population. Worldwide, the Jews are a small portion of the over 7 billion alive today. So they are truly outnumbered in many ways.
Politically, Israel is an ally to the U.S., and so I am in support of my country aiding Israel in their fight to fend off terrorist aggression which is an ever-present danger for those who live in Israel, whether Jews or not. But in a spiritual sense, Jews in Israel are mostly secular and non-religious. They do not as a whole follow the Old Testament diligently. Judaism is very different from what was instituted by God upon Israel at Mt. Sinaii
God can judge a king and take his kingdom from him and give it to another .England has Known that as also Isreal .
God can chastise a nation and for a season give the land to others or He can judge a nation and take that land from the 'native' population and give it to others for ever .
Isreal was not given the land because of their righteousness but because of the exceeding wickedness of the inhabitants .
You have to wonder how the UK a little island on the edge of the Western Hemisphere couid ruoe and govern an empire covering a third of the globe?
It was not because of our righteousness but God was using the British to chastise other nations .
It shouild be understood that Great Britain is being chastised by the Lord for its turning away from God and like the time of Gidion has been impoverished for doing so .
IT can get far worse if we are not very careful and the people of God do not seek Gods face and " humble themselves.."
It is written of Assyria that God raised them up to be a "scourge to the children of Isreal AND the gentiles"
If anyone cared to go to the British museum and to the Assyrian section they will see the past walking in the oresent.
For the same conditions apply now here and there as they did then .
Let me be clear, I do not hold to Replacement Theology because Paul is clear that gentiles are grafted into Israel, not replacing it. But those of faith are of Israel, not ethnic Israel, unless one is a believer.
When people refer to "true Israel" this does not make them adherents to Replacement Theology. You error in this statement.
When I or others who ascribe to covenant theology speak of "true Israel", first and foremost, we are speaking of Jesus Christ, the Seed of promise to Abraham as Paul says in Galatians 3:16. If you read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.) So, Covenant theology attests that God has always and only had one people, chosen by election, throughout history. This is NOT Replacement Theology from a biblical standpoint.
To a dispensationalist, it may SEEM like Israel is being replaced by the church. But this is because dispensationalists insist that all of ethnic Israel is true Israel, children of the promise to Abraham. But Paul says differently, as I have shown in previous posts.
From my understanding of dispensationalism is that unbelieving ethnic Israelites are always the people of God, but Scripture state many places in the OT as well, that those who do not continue in belief are cut off from His people, as Paul reiterates in Rom. 11:15. In Gal 4:28 Paul says that believers (both Israelite and Gentile) are children of the promise to Abraham, just as Isaac was.
When one who espouses that across time God has continually called those whom He elected to have faith and receive redemption through the blood sacrifice of Jesus, whether OT or NT, whether Israelite or Gentile, from every nation tribe and tongue and attest that these are His one people, the Israel of God that receive this designation by faith, not by physical birth, they are agreeing with Paul!
I don't believe you have a grip on Covenant theology or Dispensationalism in regards to where they split.
Nor do you seem to understand what makes one qualify as Replacement Theology.
You stated "If I read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.)
I don't believe there is anything in the book of Galatians that Covenant theology and Dispensationalist disagree on!!
Gigi I don't know if you are purposely doing this or not.
This has nothing to do with Genesis 22:18 or Galatians 3:16-29.
Those scriptures has nothing to do with the eschatology covenant promises to Abraham and the Davidic Kingdom!
You also stated;
We do not see ethnic Israel as any more special or preferred by God as any other people group.
Why did you feel the need to say that?
Gigi, Let's calm down and try to correctly hear one another.
Please know that I am very calm in all of this discussion. if you are not, then I hope you will come to such a place.
It seems to me that you want to discuss what will happen when Jesus returns. I do not want to talk about that at this time. I did not realize that this was the narrow focus of this thread.
If you wish to speak your mind on the eschaton, I welcome that, but I don't wish to discuss it back and forth with you at this time.
It seems to me whenever we get in discussions along these lines, you default to telling me how I am wrong, how my knowledge of certain topics are wrong and how I err in interpreting Scripture.
I just encourage you to read up on Covenant Theology as I continue to do as well as on Dispensational Theology. I have spoken here of what I have been reading pertaining to your segway into Replacement Theology and I think I have accurately represented how Covenant/Reformed Theology views Replacement Theology.
If I have misrepresented dispensational theology, please let me know and refer me to resources that I can check into because I don't think it is wise to just go by what I or you say here.
I need to head out to swimming lessons for Rosie soon, so I have to get her fed and cleaned up.
I'm calm as always but honest in what I see in what you bring scripturally.
Gigi you said It seems to you that I want to discuss what will happen when Jesus returns and you do not want to talk about that at this time and you did not realize that this was the narrow focus of this thread.
Gigi you have been responding with pages to this very topic!
(Heavenly calling to the Church and The promised future Kingdom to Israel. (The Gospel of the kingdom!
Those scriptures you presented has nothing to do with that!
I'm sorry if you are frustrated but it doesnt seem like you represent either belief and how they differ well.
In other words it seems like you study Covenant Theology to represent it to combat Dispensationalism but you don't quite understand it.
I don't study Dispensationalism to become one.
I'm a Dispensationalist because I believe the Promises to Israel will be fulfilled to Israel in a literal Millennium here on earth after the Church is raptured.
Those covenants and countless Promises in the OT is to be literally fulfilled to Israel and not the Church.
I believe in a literal 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ here on earth.
We have been expressing this for atleast a month, and you are saying you didn't know that?
Gigi you said scripture explicitly teaches God has one people and that is the Church.
How many groups of people do you see here in Matthew 25:31-40 and who are they?
There's the sheep on his right hand,
There's the goats on the left.
and there's "these my brethren"
Gigi please tell me who are these three groups of people.
I as responding to Lbooth's post about there being two people of God -Israel being earthly and the Church being heavenly. That is why I went through Galatians and Romans as I did because it clearly shows there is but one people of God throughout time.
I am not frustrated at all in this conversation.
However, I wish to exit this one with you because of the way you mischaracterize me and denigrate me openly. This has happened with you repeatedly, so when you fall back to this in a conversation I will exit the conversation with you.
You said you went through Galatians and Romans as you did because it clearly shows there is but one people of God throughout time.
Gigi what you presented in Galatians is not about "a people to God"
Galatians speaks ofa right relationship with God comes through faith in Jesus Christ, not by following the law.
Gigi the entire Bible speaks of Israel and the Church as two separate people and two people of God.
That's why I presented you Matthew 25:33-40.
There is the sheep on his right hand.
There is the goats on the left.
and there is "one of the least of these my brethren!
Those on his right hand, (The Sheep) is a people of God! He tells them "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Gigi that's one! These are the tribulation saints.
There are those he call "the least of these my brethren! Israel! Gigi that's two!
And the Church is not in this group because this is during the Great Tribulation period and they have already been raptured.
Gigi this would make two people of God presented here in Matthew 25.
It would make three if the Church was included.
You said I mischaracterize you and denigrate you openly.
Gigi I pointed out you misrepresented those scriptures in Galatians when you tried to drive home your point.
Those scriptures you presented was clearly far off topic in regards to this debate.
Gigi you often willingly attack dispensationalists views and you feel that's ok.
And it is ok if you believe they are incorrect.
But you misrepresent scripture often in your arguments and get upset when you are called out on it.
I will leave this conversation with you but I will touch on some things you said in an earlier post and show why I say you are representing a heresy that misrepresent God and is antisemitic.
When you say I am "driving home" my viewpoint, isn't that what you do with your dispensational viewpoints? You have done this many times but I have never spoken of you as you have spoken of me. I have not told you how wrong you are. I have not told you how you do not understand what you are talking about in regards to a specific topic. I have not told you that you do not know rightly about dispensationalism as you have said that I do not know rightly what Reformed/Covenant theology teaches.
I am not upset at all in this process of discussing with others and you. Perhaps you are, but you will have to let me know if this is true of not. I won't tell you what you are feeling emotionally and I hope that in the future you will refrain from telling me how I am feeling emotionally. I think this is fair.
As I have said before to you-there is a difference between not agreeing with a viewpoint-such as dispensationalism- as you pointed out-and attacking it. I do not believe I have attacked dispensationalism. I have stated that I disagree with it. There is a difference. And, yes, it is absolutely OK if I say I disagree with tenets of dispensationalism I have addressed, just as I think it is absolutely OK if you disagree with tenets of Reformed/Covenant theology on this forum. I see no problem with this point.
And lastly, you end your post by labeling me a heretic and anti-semitic. These are really inflammatory and flagrant accusations.
I do not deserve to be called such just because I don't follow you doctrines or thinking. I know who I am in Christ as you know yourself. I would never slander you as you do to me.
Even so, If you wish to continue to explain your thoughts to me, I will read what you write and give it consideration as I always do. I may or may not respond. As I said in my last comment, I prefer to not continue in this conversation because of how you mis-treat me. It is not good for you.
You asked; "When you say I am "driving home" my viewpoint, isn't that what you do with your dispensational viewpoints?
Gigi everyone should try to drive home their viewpoint!
I said you misrepresent Galatians in regard to this topic is because you said, quoting you; In Galatians 3:16 If I read Galatians, I will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham.
As if I never read Galatians! What I do know is that Galatians 3:16 and the other verses you offered, Dispensationist and Covenant Theologist agree on.
Everyone who enters this debate should know that the promises made to Abraham concerning the future of Israel and an Earthly Kingdom is not the promise of the seed of Christ.
That wouldn't even qualify as replacement theology.
You say I have done this many times, but you have never spoken of me as I have spoken of you, and you have not told me how wrong I am.
Gigi everything you said about dispensationist that they don't have right; you said that about me and all who are dispensationist on this site.
I am not trying to fight with you, I'm just saying what you have presented is something no one disagree on.
The very topic that you don't want to answer questions to or talk about is where these to theologies differ is the promises to Israel in Eschatology!
Are we to reduce verything to one's own personal " viewpoint?
By so doing we can if we have a mind to do so dismiss something as simp,y " their truth"
This site is not a barrack room or speakers corner in London . But rather it appears to uphold biblical principles and if we profess Christ then surely we cannot simply be interested in another's " veiwpoint or opinion in other words .
Somebody said they were not interested in " my truth":but the truth but were unwilling to look at the whole truth but thrur onkybfocus was on a particular denominations " point of view":.
It can be argued that every man is entitled to their own thoughts . But once expressed becomes an opinion but it wouid be absurd to assert that every opinion is of equal merit but must be weighed and measured by arguments to suppirt it .
How much more than when we speak of the Word of God ?
For while we are different levels of maturity and measures of understanding and can get 5hings a bit wrong or completely wrong ( who is infallible? No one) but if Christ is in us and we are being led by the Holy Spirit then surely and reasonably adjust our thinking if needs must and /or learn from others and develop our understanding .
For are we not if His to " have the same mind" the same judgement" etc says Paul .
Till we all come to a unity of THE faith ." If faith comes not only by hearing thecWord of God but also understanding it then it is not my point of view we need but Gods so to speak .
Did not Eve have a point of view when "she saw that the tree was good to eat"?
I agree with some of the covenant theologist views however on their eschatology is where we part ways drastically.
Also covenant theologist has some
dispensationalism tenants in it in the way grace was administrated over the covenants.
Same Lord, Same savior!
Different economies.
One administration pointed fowards the other pointed backwards.
One foreshadowed the other.
Covenant theology holds an amillennialist view, believing the millennial kingdom is symbolic.
That's where we draw the line!
As for the accusation.
Gigi when did I say non-dispensational views of Israel and the church is from the devil?
Here's my direct quote;
Replacement theologist can be linked to paving the road for antisemitism!
This is Satan at work!
He's been trying to wipe out the Jews since the beginning.
End quote.
Gigi if you are saying those who have non-dispensational views and those who hold Replacement theology views are the same then you are agreeing you are a Replacement Theologist.
Replacement Theology definition.
Replacement theology, or supersessionism, is the belief that the Christian church has replaced Israel as God's chosen people, inheriting God's promises and covenant roles originally given to Israel due to Israel's rejection of Jesus as Messiah. This view holds that God's covenant with the Jewish people ended with their disobedience and that the Church is now the new inheritor of God's redemptive plan, often interpreting biblical promises to Israel as spiritual ones for the Church.
This makes God a liar concerning his promises to Israel.
Anytime someone say "The True Israel" That has replacement written all over it!
I realize that we differ in how we view whom God's chosen people are.
And I do not wish to discuss this aspect again here as I did explain my view in the posts I submitted earlier.
But to state my view: I believe the Scriptures teach that there always has and will be one people of god-not two.
And I believe that this people are all from Adam up to now and into eternity those who live by faith as Abraham did who saw Jesus' day and rejoiced. The people of God are all who God elected to salvation in all times. And the way anyone enters this communion is by believing God in Christ's person and work of redemption.
In the OT, it is true that the nation of Israel was formed by God to be His covenant people. Yet we read in the NT that those who are truly Israel are those who have faith in the gospel and in Jesus. the NT clearly teaches that not all who are Israel by fleshly birth are of the Israel of God and neither are they necessarily inheritors of the promises given to Abraham. Unbelief identifies these ethnic Jews as being offspring of the bond-servant Hagar and non-heirs as Ishmael was. But those who believe as Abraham believes are children of the promised one-Isaac and are heirs of the promises. so any Israelite who is justified by faith in Christ is of true Israel. Likewise, as Rom. 9-11 and Galatians clearly teach, gentiles who are justified by faith in Jesus are also of true Israel, being in-grafted into the cultivated olive tree (true Israel) and both Israelite and Gentile believers constitute the one true covenant people of God.
That said, S. Spencer, this is not "Replacement Theology". It instead correctly understands the prophecies and promises of the OT prophets that both Israel and Gentiles are of the people of God.
When dispensationalists throw out the "replacement theology" card, as you have, it is usually intended to discredit or dismiss what one who aligns with Reformed or Covenant Theology. See pt. 2
I am aware of Luther's harsh remarks towards the Jews. The reformers were called to a purpose, even though, like us they sinned.
Mr. Scofield was one who swindled people, even family out of money with fake schemes, abandoned his wife and daughters and never supported them monetarily. In fact, he swindled his own family and his wife's family out of money they had inherited or earned.
Mr. Darby adhered to the doctrine that the Plymouth Brethren group he belonged to was the only true church and all others were apostate. He taught that there was one way of salvation for Christians and a different way for Jews.
John Calvin advocated putting heretics to death.
I am sure that most every famous Christian leader have tales to tell of their sinful acts.
I think this is just how it is, whether Abraham lying about Sarah, Joseph pridefully parading before his brothers in his coat making sure they knew how favored he was to their father, Peter denying the Lord, all fail and fall into sin.
So, for me, I look at how their doctrines align with Scripture, because that is what is most important, especially in our conversations here.
Luther's heaven sent revelation of understanding " the just shall live by faith" was to all intents and purposes the first shoot of the seed of the church buried under Romes oppression and ignorance of God .
But as that shoot comes out from under the earth there is always earth sticking to it .
Antisemitism was (and still is propagated) by Rome Given his Luther's history I'm not surprised . But despite his errors does not detract from that first ray of light .
Calvin extended the work . But each succeeding revelation was thought to be the whole who like Peter then began to teach the Lord when He began to give more light . Every denomination has thought the same and said " let us make a name for ourselves ." And God has had to find men outside of it to further HIS work.
The Baptist's were persecuted by the Calvinists . Wesley was rejected when he brought sanctification . The then Quakers were persecuted by the 'established' church it has been that way from the beginning.
But the Work of of God has continued .For " I will build MY church " said the Lord .
Each denomination keeping to its traditions and holding to its revelation has forgotten that God has a progressive purpose and like the ear of corn that rises up inside the stalk of wheat so too the bride of Christ .
And she too will be persecuted despised and rejected and her enemies will be "of her own household" Rome is reasserting herself positioning herself where she thinks she ought to be at the head of the table .
The new pope will deceive many. Especially those who have already got into bed with her .
And the followers of Islam are already betrayed by their leaders.
But it is written of the Lord " in the night He was betrayed he took bread ." The night of the greatest betrayal was also the time of the deepest fellowship . And did He not spread a feast for us before our enemies?
As far back as Abraham and by him to Noah and by him to Adam .
Every 'solution' that has ever been tried to break that line and ruin that witness has failed because God promised He wouid always keep a remnant.
When Adolph Hitler spoke of a 'final solution' to the Jewish question he clearly identified every other solution that had gone before and did not work . In putting into effect thst awful solution he identified himself as being of the same nature as all those who had tried other solutions before him.
Anyone and I mean anyone who seeks similar solutions or worse that final solution reveal themselves to be of the same nature as Adolph Hitler .
Be very careful then who you align yourselves with lest you find yourself on the wrong side .
You may not agree with everything Isreal does nor am I saying that Isreal is righteous in the sight of God but it is God who has kept them and is fir His own honour and glory . And will be fully vindicated for doing so while those who have thought to trample them under their feet will be proven to be the most base .
And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. Ezekiel 36:20-22.
Reasons for the Mockery:
Israel often turned away from God to worship other gods, which made them seem foolish and weak to other nations who saw their actions as a disgrace.
However, God said But I had pity for mine holy name!
In verse 23 God says "And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. Gods holy name and commitment is tied to the promises he gave to Abraham!
Psalms 121:4 reads, "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
There seems to be envy towards this nation because of Gods faithfulness.
They say "God doesn't favor Israel over other People."
I believe they put the emphasis on the wrong side of the relationship.
God is not showcasing Israel as a great lovely nation when he deals with them.
God is using that crooked backsliding nation to showcase himself and his faithfulness, his personal relationship as a Husband to them.
God is showcasing his name through Israel to the whole world!
To say God is done with THE NATION Israel and the church is the true Israel is disrespect for God's Power and doubt in God's Deliverance.
These promises speaks of Restoration for Israel and a future kingdom here on earth.
See part 2.
I've mentioned before throughout history Satan has tried to annihilate the Jews. Ethnic Israel!
This would destroy the promises of God and attack his name.
Today it's done with Replacement Theology.
This is spearheaded by some who are Covenant Theologist.
They prescribe the word elect in certain passages that is for Israel to the Church.
They say these promises in the OT is fulfilled in the Church.
This is replacement theology!
The majority of Reformed churches and theologians hold an amillennial view of eschatology, which interprets the millennium of Revelation symbolically and sees the present age as a spiritual reign of Christ. While not universally held, amillennialism is considered the traditional Reformed position, having been affirmed by the Reformers who largely accepted the amillennial views of Augustine.
Augustine views originated from the allegorical hermeneutics of Origen a 3rd-century theologian.
Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine, Missler said that preaching a physical, future return of Christ to overthrow earthly rulers became politically unpopular. This led to a "spiritualizing" of the message.
Augustine formalized this allegorical approach into a system of belief that defined the Millennium not as a literal 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ, but as Christ's spiritual reign in the hearts of believers during the current Church Age.
The Roman Catholic Church adopted Augustine's amillennialism, and, as most Protestant denominations later inherited this view, despite other disagreements with Roman theology.
By spiritualizing the Old Testament prophecies, amillennialism accuses God of not keeping his unconditional covenants with the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and makes God to be a covenant breaker!
See part 3.
Covenant Theology.
The way the Replacement Theologist interpret the end times concerning the promises made out to Israel.
Gabriel's promise to Mary about Jesus inheriting the throne of his father David points to a literal political throne, not just a heavenly one. Since that throne did not exist during Christ's first coming, its establishment must be future.
A consistent, literal hermeneutic leads to a premillennial, dispensational view of prophecy. In contrast, the more one leans towards allegorical interpretation, the more one is likely to favor amillennial or other less-literal views.
Some Covenant Theologist say Israel lost their prominent position in Gods program because of the rejection of their Messiah.
However, when you mention the faithfulness of God and his holy name at stake then they say "No where does Paul state that ethnic Israel is the inheritor of the promises and covenant made to Abraham.
The rebuttal to that is that same Paul said in Romans 9:3-4
"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
However, Israel unfaithfulness throughout history never altered Gods plans of redemption for the nation because he is a God that cannot lie.
God has done to Israel what he said he would do to them in Leviticus 26:1-41.
See part 4.
Our righteous God exercised his chastening as mentioned in Leviticus 26:1-41
And our faithful God who keeps his promises shows his faithfulness in Leviticus 26:42-46. (Please Pay attention to verse 45.)
"Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45) But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Verse 45 says, "But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
One of those unfulfilled promises is 2 Samuel 7:10-16.
This is not fulfilled in the Church!
The prophecy of Christ coming through the line of Abraham has never been a debated topic between the Theologies.
Christ fulfilled that but there are still a Davidic throne and Kingdom and restoration for the Nation of Israel that has not.
Deuteronomy 29:21-19 through Deuteronomy 30:1-9 gives a description of Israel history on into the future.
It's getting late Goodby for now.
Blessings
I am again reminded. That " No prophecy is of man's own private interpretation " Yet man consistently subjects the scriptures to his thinking and reasoning than subjects his reasoning to the Holy Spirit who is the only one who " knoweth the things of God".
Augustine has had a red flag in my thinking almost since I became a Christian by the grace of God ..
I confess I don't know why but you have in some measure given some reason for it .
I've learnt that the Spirit in me can grasp the truth far more quicker than my mind and what the Holy Spirit understands and bares witness to in my spirit takes a while for my mind to catch up so to speak .
The mind must always be ' satisfied' in that it is brought into conformity with the mind Christ . And in so doing our ,ice is transformed .
When I got saved my evangelical pastor once said that to being BORN again everyone is in agreement but as for anything else exoecialky about the last days there are as many opinions as there are pastors .
Wether he shouid have told me that at the time is a moot point . But you have in part shown it to be true .
How is it that " when the Holy Spirit shall come He will lead you into all truth" yet there is so much opinion but Beverly little truth .Truly the Spurit is outside the church knocking on the door ".
I will say this though. God did divorce Isreal because of her spiritual adultery . Which is why the Bride of Christ will be made up predominantly of Gentiles though not exclusively so .
But God has not forsaken them and as you put it Romans 9 biblical argument of Paul proving it shouid be the end of the matter .to any spiritually minded person but never will be to a carnal minded one .
The Roman church has always been at the root of antisemitsm for she has replaced Christ and exalted man where The Lord should be . And put Mary where she never was .
The knocking on the church door ( Rev 3/4) is a call to the whole church to repent . Revival
However they go far enough.
They come up short on the Eschatology of those days. They continued in the views of Augustine.
Here's an article on Martin Luther representing a well known fact!
Martin Luther developed a deep and virulent hatred toward Jews, particularly later in his life, and expressed his antisemitic views in writing.
Though his earlier work was more sympathetic, he became enraged by Jews' continued refusal to convert to Christianity and his later publications demanded harsh persecution.
Luther's shift in attitude toward Jews
Early life (pre-1540s): In his 1523 work That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew,
Luther argued that Jews were treated poorly by Christians, which was why they had not converted. He believed that if he treated them gently, they would see the light of his reformed Christianity.
Later life (post-1540): After his efforts to convert Jews largely failed,
Luther's attitude shifted to bitter hostility. This culminated in his 1543 treatise On the Jews and Their Lies, a 65,000-word polemic calling for the violent persecution of Jewish people.
End article.
Replacement theologist can be linked to paving the road for antisemitism!
This is Satan at work!
He's been trying to wipe out the Jews since the beginning.
Psalms 121:4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Ezekiel 36:21-28.
Blessings
I have 'heard' a sermon of his on John 17 on yiu tube and clearly by that his understanding grew .
But lutherans thought at some point " let us make a nane for ourselves and stay here and build us a tower."
Thinking that his revelation like Peter's was the whole truth . And when the Lord began to reveal more he rejected it as it did not 'fut' his theological revelation . So God found someone outside the camp so to speak . Calvinists being persecuted by the lutherans But when God brought more light asvto baptism the Calvinist's persecuted them in their turn.
John Wesley brought sanctification . The then Quakers something of the Holy Spirit.
And so it has gone on .I will build MY church " says the Lord " and the gates of hell shall not ire wil against it " gates attack no one .There will be no more denominations nor need of one . But that church which is His body needs to repent of her unbelief and come out of the wilderness not leaning upon her own understanding but on the arm of her beloved .
" Terrible as an army with banners"
Not a bunch of ex slaves arguing with each other about" who is the greatest " and jockeying for position .
The promised land is not heaven nor Jordan death though it is like baptism symbolic of it .meaning descender .
We can't know much about " the power of His resurrection" if we're not also " made conformable with His death "
Thanks again . GB
Thanks for responding!
Revelation 3:20 is something to think about!
The church of the Laodiceans!
This is a proud group and lukewarm!
In their mind they were in need of nothing!
Jesus said "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
And then we come to verse 20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
He's standing outside knocking, not to come in!
He's calling out individuals! " if any man hear my voice,"
You also quoted, "Mathew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The gates of hell shall not prevail against it!
What a saying that is!
Gates are put up for defense!
He's saying these defensive gates will not prevail against the Church!
This is one of many reason why I believe the Antichrist can't come until the Church is removed.
It puts 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 in perspective and also the saints mentioned in Daniel 7:25 couldn't be talking about the Church.
Blessings.
That is the" high calling " in Christ Jesus .
Again the knocking on the door is a call to the whole church the promise however is to those who have ears to hear to them"The 5 foolish virgins were not ready though they were in the company of those that were .
In everything but one all 10 were the same . The foolishness was thinking for instance that being BORN again was the becall and end all of our " so great a Salvation " When it is as it were but the 'S' of it.For not only are we saved from but saved also fir..
They were not ready because their " vessels" were not full and thus were unrecognisable as the Bride and were barred being too late with the words " I know you not " and were barred from the " marriage" .
The unrepentant sinner is barred from the kingdom with the words " I never knew you" .Not the same thing at all .
When I speak of repenting I'm thinking about all those traditions of men that denominations have made for themselves the embracing of the worlds langauge .
Any church of God is an embassy for the Kingdom of God and every child of Hod an ambassador.of light .
It represents or should like any embassy the interests and objectives of its own government or ruler . Was not the "lesser light" to rule the darkness? Does it not bare witness to the fact that even I. The darkest night when the moon still shines bares witness that not only is the sun still shining but that there is coming a perfect day !
Bad news for those who " love darkness more than the light " good news for all who want something radically better than what this workd offers .
GB
But along side that one is the Philadelphian church who in its own eyes was " poor":but the Lord says was " rich".
I also am of the conviction that the Bride who is full of the Spirit and well aware of the great need for Him and which is by the prayers and labours is restraining the spirit of the antichrist will be translated to " meet the Lord in the air " then the world will enter into that " great tribulation":and the time of the anti christ and the Jews will face" Jacobs trouble".
But our f main focus and singie eye must be " looking for and hastening to the coming of the Lord " " For unto them that look for Him shall He appear the send time "
He is coming first, FOR His bride then will come WITH His bride .
As for the gates of hell is it not extraordinary how false concepts and ideas creep into the church and Gods people thinking?
Community is a newer one . The church is NOT a community .
Which is where there is common external interests .It is not a 'social' gathering.
But the church is a body a temple of the living God .
And consider how much the world loves the word ' community' and how often it uses it .
Humans is another . I am not a human . I'm a person . I am part of Mankind . Not a dog kind a fish kind or some sort of ape kind I am part of Mankind on the foundation that "every seed brings forth fruit after its own kind ".
I am called to love God above all and before all and to live my neighbour as myself .
What is a neighbour? If not someone of another household and of another father .
What then is a brother or sister ? If not someone of the same household and of the same Father.
Thus I think the knocking on the door of the church is a call to the whole church to repent .
For the Lord is Holy ?
Pt. 2
Maybe some dispensationalists accuse Reformed/Covenant theology of "replacement theology" because they do not understand what Reformed/Covenant theology actually teach. They do not tach replacement theology. You can easily find that out if you check out reformed articles on this topic.
I do not know why you brought up replacement theology in your post, but I want you to be properly informed about how your use it erroneously.
Also, as you continued in your post it seemed that you think that holding a Reformed/Covenant theology viewpoint will inevitably lead to anti-semitism. This also is a fallacy. This is not to say that anti-semitism in the church hasn't been or is not now a problem, because it is, and we should speak against it. However, we truly need to correctly identify what anti-semitism is.
And believing that there is only one people of God across all time as those who believe as Abraham does is not anti-semetic.
Then to go on and intimate that those who adhere to non-dispensational views of Israel and the church is from the devil is also uncalled for on this forum.
Maybe I have misunderstood you and welcome you clarifying what you truly meant. But I think that instead of speaking insults labels and mischaracterizations of those who differ in theology than you is wrong.
I am not trying to get into a debate nor an argument with you. I consider you and friend in the Lord and am speaking to you from that point of view.
Let's keep this civil and respectful.
That " new covenant " which was to replace the old one was FIRST given to the Jews . It is their birthright though they know it not . It is ALWAYS to the Jews first then the gentiles.
The Holocaust will in the light of what the scriptures foretells is coming on the gentiles will be seen as a great mercy in that light .
For we are fast approaching the end of the " time of the gentiles" who in their turn are rejecting the gospel.
But by no means all .
The gentile ' believers ' are we not grafted into the 'natural' ?
The if the salvation of the gentiles by their ( jews ) unbelief was and is so glorious how much the salvation of the Jews it will be like " the riding of the dead" says Paul .
There have only bern two peoples in Gods eyes . Jews and gentiles .
God chose Noah out of his generation .
Out of his generation God chose Abraham .
Out of his generation came Jesus Christ .the "last Adam" .
And God will make of Twain one new Man .
In Rev 3/4 the Lord said they who overcome " I will make to sit IN my throne even as I overcame and sit IN my Father's throne".
It is a very " high calling":to which all believers are called to .
The church has made the wilderness years the Christian norm . Jordan death and the promised land heaven . Not so.
Going through the wilderness was meant to be but boot camp where we learnt that " Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that cometh from the mouth of God" .
It took them only just over 2 years I think to go from Egypt to the banks of Jordan .
Paul warns us all " not to be like them who entered not in because of unbelief "
Unbelief is not just not believing God its also actually believing the wrong message .
Even as did Eve .
GB
Part 2.
Replacement Theology.
Here's why it matters and why these particular promises is was not fulfilled in the Church.
The church was never brought out of Egypt and promised a land here on earth with the tabernacle of David being restored with this action being a spectacle for all the world to see to glorify God.
Just a few of many Examples;
1) Ezekiel 36:23-24 "And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
2) Jeremiah 16:14-15"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
3) Isaiah 48:11-12 "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Is the Church also the new Jacob?
In the book of Esther we see a clear demonic plot to annihilate the Jewish people through Haman,
In Ezekiel 38:12-19 we see a demonic force of Gog of Magog.
In Revelation 12:13-17 we see where the dragon persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
The woman here is Israel not the Church!
Throughout history Satan has tried to annihilate the Jews. Ethnic Israel!
This would destroy the promises of God and attack his name.
Today it's done with Replacement Theology.
It's getting late but I have much more to say on this.
Good night.
I, too, could say much more on this to you, but I do not think it will be fruitful because we come from opposing approaches to what Scriptures reveal about God's people, what God promised to His people beginning with Adam and into the church age, which includes the promises to Abraham.
You see these promises to Abraham as being completely earthly in nature, but covenant/reformed believers see these earthy promises as the type of what God's people receive in Christ, which is the inheritance of true Israel, the antitype, which are spiritual in nature.
I know that you do not think along the lines of covenant reformed theology. But there is no anti-semitism in this theology. We do not wish to eliminate ethnic Israel, persecute them, or to treat them with malice. But we do see them as one ethnicity among a multitude across history who need salvation in Jesus in the same way and without this salvation by faith, they are lost, judged as NOT Israel by Scripture unless or until, as individuals they repent and turn to Jesus in faith for salvation.
We do not see ethnic Israel as any more special or preferred by God as any other people group. Yet we do see that ethnic Israel was chosen by God to be the repository of God's revelation in Scriptures, and as the genetic line that will bring forth the Seed promised in Gen. 3:16. who is the Messiah, whom they rejected at that time. Jesus said the the kingdom would be taken from that generation of Jews and given to a people that would bear fruit unto salvation. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish religious rites and the scattering of the Jews in 70 A.D. was the judgement of God upon that unbelieving, stiff-necked generation of Jews. From 70 A.D. on, ethnic Israel was cast out, with the exception of those throughout the centuries who turned to Jesus in faith.
You may think that this is equates as "replacement" of Israel. But it truly is not. It is what the NT Scriptures and the words of Jesus teach.
But the Lord is going to physically in the same body as He left with come back to this earth and his feet will once again stand on the mount of Olives .He will first come FOR His bride to the air ;some of which will not see death. Then after the marriage of the Lamb will come WITH His Bride to the earth .
I don't know how God will do it . But this is certain when all things are brought into subjection and under Christs feet He Himsef will submit Himself to the Father so "that God will fill all in all ".
This will be something quite different from the beginning.For there that creation was corruptible.
If God filleth all in all that will not be so .
And even death will die being the last enemy .
For death will be swallowed up in victory .
For the whole of creation groaneth writhing for the manifestation of the sons of God .
Even as the Spirit groaneth .
As also the Church of God .
The earth is in the convulsions of child birth .
And will not God bring it to birth?
All Jews in spite of themselves and which includes the State of Isreal represent an unbroken line and witness to the Law and Prophets of Almighty God .
Undoubtedly they need to be saved and are as lost as any gentile and can only be saved through Jesus Christ .
Every 'solution' that has ever been tried is to break that line ( back to Abraham) and destroy that witness by every means possible for that would prove that God does not exist and His Law does not matter .
But despite everything the Jews hold up the Old Testament as the Word of God true in ever6 respect as well as being their history . Which is extraordinary because that' history 'and record going back into recorded history as far back as Abraham and by him to Noah and by him to Adam and thus a record of Man's roots shows their failures ,their sins ,Gods judgements etc . Yet still maintain it is the truth . This is not like the world which puts its best foot forward and does not parade its failures .or faults .( British included) who once was the head of all the nations but is now fast becoming the tail .
" Oh how the mighty have fallen"
The reason why there is so much antisemitism is founded upon that fact .and in direct proportion to the worlds rebellion against God will be the rise of antisemitism .
It is not they who have made it so . But God who has made them and will keep them to the end not because of their righteousness but because of His forHe is faithful to His Word .
He has also made them and the State of Isreal a direct challenge to all of Islams spurious and vain assertions . The Middle East wars are not political problems but theological ones .
For the 'god'' of Islam thay call ' Allah' is not the God of Abraham if it was there would be little or no problem there .
Pt. 4
Romans 11 nowhere says that ungrafted Israelites will be among the saved of vs. 26. It is with Gentile believers and Israelite believers that God causes the two to be one new man which is the household of God ( Eph. 2:11-19; Gal 3:28-29).
It is my hope and prayers that in this generation, God will bring a multitude of Jews into the household of God by faith in Jesus, to become members of this "one new man", the one and only household of God, the true Israel.
These are my understandings from Scripture. I believe that the NT interprets the OT and therefore, what was promised as earthly and fleshly blessings to Israel in the OT is described as salvation and eternal life, spiritual blessings in the NT, with the OT earthly promises being the type and the NT re-interpreting of these same promises being the antitype, the fulfillment.
Blessings to you Gerald. I only responded to you because you posted to me. I want to be thorough in describing my understanding because it is too easy to get into arguments over "sound bytes" of doctrine, which I want to avoid. I welcome your replies.
Are we not all looking through a glass darkly " but not so dark that we can't have faith in the present and hope for the future .
The trouble with text is misunderstandings can easily occur . Due perhaps in not being skilled enough in expressing our thoughts or omitting things . Either way if patient with one another and don't jump to conclusions we surely with Gods help grow in our understanding of the scriptures and above all of Him who inspired them .
For I hold to the fact that even as the Holy Spirit was needed to write the scriptures then the same Holy Spirit Iand in the same measure is needed to understand what is written .I also believe and relight on the Lords promise that "He will lead US into all truth " So as long as we are seeking the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness rather than trying to establish our own we can be assured that He will do so .
And if we go astray a little He will tell us that truth also and put us right .
When I was a small child for a little while I thought putting my fingers under the running hot water tap and moving my fingers in the water that made it go hot . Because clearly every time I did it ,the water went hot!
If we jump to conclusions we rarely arrive at the truth .
1 John . Little children . Young men . " ye fathers you know Him who is from the beginning "
It cannot be said that a BORN child of God does not know their father . But I warrant not as much as " ye fathers "
I have not said there are two people of God as in children of God born again etc .
What I do say is as Paul does they were first given the oracles of God and as far as they know hold up those scriptures as the Word of the living God . Despite them not keeping it .
It is God who has kept them for HIS sake and for His own honour and glory .
And will ALWAYS keep a remnant. For out of that remnant will come a people as sands on the beach
pt. 3
On down through the centuries, including the OT, God has always been faithful to this remnant chosen by election through grace.
And God has brought to faith in Jesus all who are of this remnant and will do so until it is time for Jesus to return.
But Paul said in Rom. 11:1-2 that God has not cast away His people (Israel) which he "foreknew" that is predestined for salvation. and He goes on to cite the account of despondent Elijah in his flight from Ahab and Jezebel where God assured this prophet of the remnant God had preserved for Himself who remained faithful-the 7000 men who had not committed idolatry.(vs.2-4)
In the remaining ch. 11 Paul goes on to describe true Israel as the natural, good olive tree that both believing Jews and Gentiles are grafted into. Paul also states that the blindness of unbelieving Jews is not necessarily permanent for those God did cast away for unbelief, indicating that more Israelites will be received and ingrafted again upon these being brought to faith in Jesus. But those who remain in unbelief are not part of the true Israel, though they are ethnically Israeli.
Vs. 26 does say 'And so, all Israel shall be saved." I understand this "so" to mean that "in this way" (Israelites who are brought to faith in Jesus since His resurrection and ascension and down through the centuries) will "all" Israel be saved. They will become members of Christ's body through faith and be ingrafted into the one and only people of God who have the "faith of Abraham".
Unbelieving Ethnic Israelites are not a people of God in addition to believers in Jesus being a people of God. But this does not preclude that throughout the centuries God does not bring salvation through faith in Jesus to many Israelites whom He foreknew. And this does not preclude a time when God will bring about a great ingathering of Israelites to Jesus by faith. That is my hope!
But I do not think that unbelieving Jews will be included as God's people. See Pt. 4
For His own names sake .
They will be saved in a day .
I do know that Christians shouild have mercy on them and not side with their enemies , The scriptures also say we will "make them jealous"
I do not pretend to understand it all but Romans 9 is it when Paul expresses how he saw things and finishes up full of wonder and awe at the wisdom and might I of God and if with the Holy Spirits help we follow his thinking in that chapter we just might get a little awestruck ourselves .
GB
Pt. 2
Judaism is differs greatly from what God instituted upon Israel at Mt. Sinai. Judaism developed out of the 70 year captivity in Babylonian exile where there was not a temple for the priestly ordinances to be practiced. So, the leaders instituted the introduction of Rabbis and Synagogues in place of what was the ancient practices of Israel. This was out of necessity and was probably initially a good way for the Jewish captives to continue worshipping God even though the practices were knew to the religion. But over time, a great number of laws and practices were added to what God had had commanded of them. Jesus sharply criticized these traditions of men and the non-proscribed burden they placed upon the common Jewish people.
The changes that began in Babylon produced the Babylonian Talmud, which was considered sacred writing in addition to the Torah and Prophets (OT) even though God had not inspired the Talmud and other writings of the Rabbis. The addition of these traditions greatly corrupted the religion God had instituted at Sinai. These traditions produced the sects of Pharisees, Sadduccees, Essenes, and others within Judaism.
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Judaism that continued from their is and has been the religion of the Pharisees.
Those who did and do practice Judaism observe the teachings of the Talmud as being equal to the OT. I do not think that this in any way pleases God. And, since most of those who are ethnic Jews today are secular and do not practice their faith with serious observance or faith in God, they are far from being examples of how people should serve and worship God.
Even so, this does not mean that God has forsaken Jews. In the first century, a remnant of Jews turned to Jesus through the true gospel preached by the apostles and disciples of Jesus, who themselves were of this remnant. God is faithful to this remnant, as Paul says in Romans 11:1-7. It is to this remnant that God is faithful.
I trust that God will deal with ethnic Israel as He has planned to do since before creation. He saw fit that the nation of Israel was laid waste for nearly 2000 years and the Jews were divested of their temple, religious ordinances, land, etc from thence on. This was a very devasting and severe reckoning He brought to the Jews since the 1st century.
The land of Israel has been controlled by other dynasties for this long time period until the British Mandate once again established the land of ancient Israel as a national home for the Jews, which began in 1948. This nation has had such difficulties with its Islamic neighbors ever since. Which I find disturbing and sad. I pray for peace for this nation and that those who act against Israel's current existence will be brought to a place of acceptance and peace with Israel. I hate the terrorism that affects Israel and the people that live near Israel. I support Israel's right to continue to exist because of the Balfour Declaration since Britain had control of the Middle East/Palestine at that time.
The Jews are just a small portion of ethnic Israel and those in Israel now are a very small portion of the Jews worldwide. The Jews in the U.S. outnumbers those who now reside in Israel (approximately 7.5 million - 6.5 million) yet, in the U.S. the Jews are 2.4% of the population, which is a small number compared to the 350+ million U.S. population. Worldwide, the Jews are a small portion of the over 7 billion alive today. So they are truly outnumbered in many ways.
Politically, Israel is an ally to the U.S., and so I am in support of my country aiding Israel in their fight to fend off terrorist aggression which is an ever-present danger for those who live in Israel, whether Jews or not. But in a spiritual sense, Jews in Israel are mostly secular and non-religious. They do not as a whole follow the Old Testament diligently. Judaism is very different from what was instituted by God upon Israel at Mt. Sinaii
God can chastise a nation and for a season give the land to others or He can judge a nation and take that land from the 'native' population and give it to others for ever .
Isreal was not given the land because of their righteousness but because of the exceeding wickedness of the inhabitants .
You have to wonder how the UK a little island on the edge of the Western Hemisphere couid ruoe and govern an empire covering a third of the globe?
It was not because of our righteousness but God was using the British to chastise other nations .
It shouild be understood that Great Britain is being chastised by the Lord for its turning away from God and like the time of Gidion has been impoverished for doing so .
IT can get far worse if we are not very careful and the people of God do not seek Gods face and " humble themselves.."
It is written of Assyria that God raised them up to be a "scourge to the children of Isreal AND the gentiles"
If anyone cared to go to the British museum and to the Assyrian section they will see the past walking in the oresent.
For the same conditions apply now here and there as they did then .
Let me be clear, I do not hold to Replacement Theology because Paul is clear that gentiles are grafted into Israel, not replacing it. But those of faith are of Israel, not ethnic Israel, unless one is a believer.
When people refer to "true Israel" this does not make them adherents to Replacement Theology. You error in this statement.
When I or others who ascribe to covenant theology speak of "true Israel", first and foremost, we are speaking of Jesus Christ, the Seed of promise to Abraham as Paul says in Galatians 3:16. If you read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.) So, Covenant theology attests that God has always and only had one people, chosen by election, throughout history. This is NOT Replacement Theology from a biblical standpoint.
To a dispensationalist, it may SEEM like Israel is being replaced by the church. But this is because dispensationalists insist that all of ethnic Israel is true Israel, children of the promise to Abraham. But Paul says differently, as I have shown in previous posts.
From my understanding of dispensationalism is that unbelieving ethnic Israelites are always the people of God, but Scripture state many places in the OT as well, that those who do not continue in belief are cut off from His people, as Paul reiterates in Rom. 11:15. In Gal 4:28 Paul says that believers (both Israelite and Gentile) are children of the promise to Abraham, just as Isaac was.
When one who espouses that across time God has continually called those whom He elected to have faith and receive redemption through the blood sacrifice of Jesus, whether OT or NT, whether Israelite or Gentile, from every nation tribe and tongue and attest that these are His one people, the Israel of God that receive this designation by faith, not by physical birth, they are agreeing with Paul!
I don't believe you have a grip on Covenant theology or Dispensationalism in regards to where they split.
Nor do you seem to understand what makes one qualify as Replacement Theology.
You stated "If I read Galatians you will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham. (3:6-9; 14; 17; 22; 26;29.)
I don't believe there is anything in the book of Galatians that Covenant theology and Dispensationalist disagree on!!
Gigi I don't know if you are purposely doing this or not.
This has nothing to do with Genesis 22:18 or Galatians 3:16-29.
Those scriptures has nothing to do with the eschatology covenant promises to Abraham and the Davidic Kingdom!
You also stated;
We do not see ethnic Israel as any more special or preferred by God as any other people group.
Why did you feel the need to say that?
Gigi, Let's calm down and try to correctly hear one another.
I'm busy at the moment we will talk later.
Blessings.
Please know that I am very calm in all of this discussion. if you are not, then I hope you will come to such a place.
It seems to me that you want to discuss what will happen when Jesus returns. I do not want to talk about that at this time. I did not realize that this was the narrow focus of this thread.
If you wish to speak your mind on the eschaton, I welcome that, but I don't wish to discuss it back and forth with you at this time.
It seems to me whenever we get in discussions along these lines, you default to telling me how I am wrong, how my knowledge of certain topics are wrong and how I err in interpreting Scripture.
I just encourage you to read up on Covenant Theology as I continue to do as well as on Dispensational Theology. I have spoken here of what I have been reading pertaining to your segway into Replacement Theology and I think I have accurately represented how Covenant/Reformed Theology views Replacement Theology.
If I have misrepresented dispensational theology, please let me know and refer me to resources that I can check into because I don't think it is wise to just go by what I or you say here.
I need to head out to swimming lessons for Rosie soon, so I have to get her fed and cleaned up.
Have a good evening, S. Spencer.
I'm calm as always but honest in what I see in what you bring scripturally.
Gigi you said It seems to you that I want to discuss what will happen when Jesus returns and you do not want to talk about that at this time and you did not realize that this was the narrow focus of this thread.
Gigi you have been responding with pages to this very topic!
(Heavenly calling to the Church and The promised future Kingdom to Israel. (The Gospel of the kingdom!
Those scriptures you presented has nothing to do with that!
I'm sorry if you are frustrated but it doesnt seem like you represent either belief and how they differ well.
In other words it seems like you study Covenant Theology to represent it to combat Dispensationalism but you don't quite understand it.
I don't study Dispensationalism to become one.
I'm a Dispensationalist because I believe the Promises to Israel will be fulfilled to Israel in a literal Millennium here on earth after the Church is raptured.
Those covenants and countless Promises in the OT is to be literally fulfilled to Israel and not the Church.
I believe in a literal 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ here on earth.
We have been expressing this for atleast a month, and you are saying you didn't know that?
Gigi you said scripture explicitly teaches God has one people and that is the Church.
How many groups of people do you see here in Matthew 25:31-40 and who are they?
There's the sheep on his right hand,
There's the goats on the left.
and there's "these my brethren"
Gigi please tell me who are these three groups of people.
Blessings.
I as responding to Lbooth's post about there being two people of God -Israel being earthly and the Church being heavenly. That is why I went through Galatians and Romans as I did because it clearly shows there is but one people of God throughout time.
I am not frustrated at all in this conversation.
However, I wish to exit this one with you because of the way you mischaracterize me and denigrate me openly. This has happened with you repeatedly, so when you fall back to this in a conversation I will exit the conversation with you.
You said you went through Galatians and Romans as you did because it clearly shows there is but one people of God throughout time.
Gigi what you presented in Galatians is not about "a people to God"
Galatians speaks ofa right relationship with God comes through faith in Jesus Christ, not by following the law.
Gigi the entire Bible speaks of Israel and the Church as two separate people and two people of God.
That's why I presented you Matthew 25:33-40.
There is the sheep on his right hand.
There is the goats on the left.
and there is "one of the least of these my brethren!
Those on his right hand, (The Sheep) is a people of God! He tells them "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Gigi that's one! These are the tribulation saints.
There are those he call "the least of these my brethren! Israel! Gigi that's two!
And the Church is not in this group because this is during the Great Tribulation period and they have already been raptured.
Gigi this would make two people of God presented here in Matthew 25.
It would make three if the Church was included.
You said I mischaracterize you and denigrate you openly.
Gigi I pointed out you misrepresented those scriptures in Galatians when you tried to drive home your point.
Those scriptures you presented was clearly far off topic in regards to this debate.
Gigi you often willingly attack dispensationalists views and you feel that's ok.
And it is ok if you believe they are incorrect.
But you misrepresent scripture often in your arguments and get upset when you are called out on it.
I will leave this conversation with you but I will touch on some things you said in an earlier post and show why I say you are representing a heresy that misrepresent God and is antisemitic.
Good night and God bless.
I have said I disagree with dispensationalism.
When you say I am "driving home" my viewpoint, isn't that what you do with your dispensational viewpoints? You have done this many times but I have never spoken of you as you have spoken of me. I have not told you how wrong you are. I have not told you how you do not understand what you are talking about in regards to a specific topic. I have not told you that you do not know rightly about dispensationalism as you have said that I do not know rightly what Reformed/Covenant theology teaches.
I am not upset at all in this process of discussing with others and you. Perhaps you are, but you will have to let me know if this is true of not. I won't tell you what you are feeling emotionally and I hope that in the future you will refrain from telling me how I am feeling emotionally. I think this is fair.
As I have said before to you-there is a difference between not agreeing with a viewpoint-such as dispensationalism- as you pointed out-and attacking it. I do not believe I have attacked dispensationalism. I have stated that I disagree with it. There is a difference. And, yes, it is absolutely OK if I say I disagree with tenets of dispensationalism I have addressed, just as I think it is absolutely OK if you disagree with tenets of Reformed/Covenant theology on this forum. I see no problem with this point.
And lastly, you end your post by labeling me a heretic and anti-semitic. These are really inflammatory and flagrant accusations.
I do not deserve to be called such just because I don't follow you doctrines or thinking. I know who I am in Christ as you know yourself. I would never slander you as you do to me.
Even so, If you wish to continue to explain your thoughts to me, I will read what you write and give it consideration as I always do. I may or may not respond. As I said in my last comment, I prefer to not continue in this conversation because of how you mis-treat me. It is not good for you.
You asked; "When you say I am "driving home" my viewpoint, isn't that what you do with your dispensational viewpoints?
Gigi everyone should try to drive home their viewpoint!
I said you misrepresent Galatians in regard to this topic is because you said, quoting you; In Galatians 3:16 If I read Galatians, I will know that Paul attests to the blessing of Abraham coming upon the Gentiles who have faith like Abraham along with Israelites who have faith like Abraham.
As if I never read Galatians! What I do know is that Galatians 3:16 and the other verses you offered, Dispensationist and Covenant Theologist agree on.
Everyone who enters this debate should know that the promises made to Abraham concerning the future of Israel and an Earthly Kingdom is not the promise of the seed of Christ.
That wouldn't even qualify as replacement theology.
You say I have done this many times, but you have never spoken of me as I have spoken of you, and you have not told me how wrong I am.
Gigi everything you said about dispensationist that they don't have right; you said that about me and all who are dispensationist on this site.
I am not trying to fight with you, I'm just saying what you have presented is something no one disagree on.
The very topic that you don't want to answer questions to or talk about is where these to theologies differ is the promises to Israel in Eschatology!
By for now.
By so doing we can if we have a mind to do so dismiss something as simp,y " their truth"
This site is not a barrack room or speakers corner in London . But rather it appears to uphold biblical principles and if we profess Christ then surely we cannot simply be interested in another's " veiwpoint or opinion in other words .
Somebody said they were not interested in " my truth":but the truth but were unwilling to look at the whole truth but thrur onkybfocus was on a particular denominations " point of view":.
It can be argued that every man is entitled to their own thoughts . But once expressed becomes an opinion but it wouid be absurd to assert that every opinion is of equal merit but must be weighed and measured by arguments to suppirt it .
How much more than when we speak of the Word of God ?
For while we are different levels of maturity and measures of understanding and can get 5hings a bit wrong or completely wrong ( who is infallible? No one) but if Christ is in us and we are being led by the Holy Spirit then surely and reasonably adjust our thinking if needs must and /or learn from others and develop our understanding .
For are we not if His to " have the same mind" the same judgement" etc says Paul .
Till we all come to a unity of THE faith ." If faith comes not only by hearing thecWord of God but also understanding it then it is not my point of view we need but Gods so to speak .
Did not Eve have a point of view when "she saw that the tree was good to eat"?
Part 1
I am familiar with Reformed/Covenant theology. .
I agree with some of the covenant theologist views however on their eschatology is where we part ways drastically.
Also covenant theologist has some
dispensationalism tenants in it in the way grace was administrated over the covenants.
Same Lord, Same savior!
Different economies.
One administration pointed fowards the other pointed backwards.
One foreshadowed the other.
Covenant theology holds an amillennialist view, believing the millennial kingdom is symbolic.
That's where we draw the line!
As for the accusation.
Gigi when did I say non-dispensational views of Israel and the church is from the devil?
Here's my direct quote;
Replacement theologist can be linked to paving the road for antisemitism!
This is Satan at work!
He's been trying to wipe out the Jews since the beginning.
End quote.
Gigi if you are saying those who have non-dispensational views and those who hold Replacement theology views are the same then you are agreeing you are a Replacement Theologist.
Replacement Theology definition.
Replacement theology, or supersessionism, is the belief that the Christian church has replaced Israel as God's chosen people, inheriting God's promises and covenant roles originally given to Israel due to Israel's rejection of Jesus as Messiah. This view holds that God's covenant with the Jewish people ended with their disobedience and that the Church is now the new inheritor of God's redemptive plan, often interpreting biblical promises to Israel as spiritual ones for the Church.
This makes God a liar concerning his promises to Israel.
Anytime someone say "The True Israel" That has replacement written all over it!
See part 2.
I realize that we differ in how we view whom God's chosen people are.
And I do not wish to discuss this aspect again here as I did explain my view in the posts I submitted earlier.
But to state my view: I believe the Scriptures teach that there always has and will be one people of god-not two.
And I believe that this people are all from Adam up to now and into eternity those who live by faith as Abraham did who saw Jesus' day and rejoiced. The people of God are all who God elected to salvation in all times. And the way anyone enters this communion is by believing God in Christ's person and work of redemption.
In the OT, it is true that the nation of Israel was formed by God to be His covenant people. Yet we read in the NT that those who are truly Israel are those who have faith in the gospel and in Jesus. the NT clearly teaches that not all who are Israel by fleshly birth are of the Israel of God and neither are they necessarily inheritors of the promises given to Abraham. Unbelief identifies these ethnic Jews as being offspring of the bond-servant Hagar and non-heirs as Ishmael was. But those who believe as Abraham believes are children of the promised one-Isaac and are heirs of the promises. so any Israelite who is justified by faith in Christ is of true Israel. Likewise, as Rom. 9-11 and Galatians clearly teach, gentiles who are justified by faith in Jesus are also of true Israel, being in-grafted into the cultivated olive tree (true Israel) and both Israelite and Gentile believers constitute the one true covenant people of God.
That said, S. Spencer, this is not "Replacement Theology". It instead correctly understands the prophecies and promises of the OT prophets that both Israel and Gentiles are of the people of God.
When dispensationalists throw out the "replacement theology" card, as you have, it is usually intended to discredit or dismiss what one who aligns with Reformed or Covenant Theology. See pt. 2
I am aware of Luther's harsh remarks towards the Jews. The reformers were called to a purpose, even though, like us they sinned.
Mr. Scofield was one who swindled people, even family out of money with fake schemes, abandoned his wife and daughters and never supported them monetarily. In fact, he swindled his own family and his wife's family out of money they had inherited or earned.
Mr. Darby adhered to the doctrine that the Plymouth Brethren group he belonged to was the only true church and all others were apostate. He taught that there was one way of salvation for Christians and a different way for Jews.
John Calvin advocated putting heretics to death.
I am sure that most every famous Christian leader have tales to tell of their sinful acts.
I think this is just how it is, whether Abraham lying about Sarah, Joseph pridefully parading before his brothers in his coat making sure they knew how favored he was to their father, Peter denying the Lord, all fail and fall into sin.
So, for me, I look at how their doctrines align with Scripture, because that is what is most important, especially in our conversations here.
But as that shoot comes out from under the earth there is always earth sticking to it .
Antisemitism was (and still is propagated) by Rome Given his Luther's history I'm not surprised . But despite his errors does not detract from that first ray of light .
Calvin extended the work . But each succeeding revelation was thought to be the whole who like Peter then began to teach the Lord when He began to give more light . Every denomination has thought the same and said " let us make a name for ourselves ." And God has had to find men outside of it to further HIS work.
The Baptist's were persecuted by the Calvinists . Wesley was rejected when he brought sanctification . The then Quakers were persecuted by the 'established' church it has been that way from the beginning.
But the Work of of God has continued .For " I will build MY church " said the Lord .
Each denomination keeping to its traditions and holding to its revelation has forgotten that God has a progressive purpose and like the ear of corn that rises up inside the stalk of wheat so too the bride of Christ .
And she too will be persecuted despised and rejected and her enemies will be "of her own household" Rome is reasserting herself positioning herself where she thinks she ought to be at the head of the table .
The new pope will deceive many. Especially those who have already got into bed with her .
And the followers of Islam are already betrayed by their leaders.
But it is written of the Lord " in the night He was betrayed he took bread ." The night of the greatest betrayal was also the time of the deepest fellowship . And did He not spread a feast for us before our enemies?
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