Thanks for your reply-I think we're circling back to the heart of our earlier discussion.
First, on reigning with Christ: I agree Revelation 2:26-27 promises ruling authority to overcomers at Thyatira, and Revelation 20:4 shows martyrs from "all nations" sharing in Christ's rule. The question is not whether redeemed people reign, but who reigns where within God's revealed programs. Paul discloses a "one new man" ( Eph 2:15) called the Body of Christ, blessed "in heavenly places" and seated there now ( Eph 1:3; 2:6). Israel, by contrast, is promised an earthly kingdom under Messiah ( Isa 2:1-4; Jer 23:5-6; Matt 19:28; Acts 1:6; 3:19-21). Both realms are under the same Lord, but the stewardships and destinations differ ( 2 Tim 2:12; 1 Cor 6:2-3).
That leads to the Bride question. Dispensationally, the Body of Christ is not the Bride of Christ. In Scripture, bridal/marriage language is consistently tied to Israel and Zion:
"Thy Maker is thine husband" ( Isa 54:5).
"I will betroth thee unto me for ever" ( Hos 2:19-20).
"As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee" ( Isa 62:4-5).
In Revelation the identification becomes explicit: "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wifeand he shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem" ( Rev 21:9-10). The city bears Israel's fingerprints-twelve tribes on its gates and the twelve apostles on its foundations ( Rev 21:12-14). Moreover, the wife in Revelation 19:7-8 is arrayed in "fine linenthe righteous acts of saints," fitting the works-tested, kingdom saints who endure (cf. Matt 24:13; Rev 14:12), not the grace-standing, already-perfected righteousness imputed to the Body ( Rom 3:21-26; Phil 3:9).
Amen, brother, thank you. Obedience is the evidence of our faith; we cannot ignore all of the Scripture on enduring and overcoming. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Corinthians 13:7, Hebrews 12:7, James 1:12, 1 John 2:13-14, Revelation 2:7,11,17,22, Revelation 21:7. I could list more, but just these cannot be ignored, and if we do, we are deceived.
Dying to self nonetheless IS exactly that; but not at the expense of the dignity of a person. No place in scripture do we see an Apostle of God demanding allegiance; that is left alone to He who sought us and bought us with His redeeming blood (Title I believe is Victory in Jesus).
The God of heaven is concerned with care for His people and thus feeds His sheep. In this love of course He chastises all those He loves; and can use people to rebuke us in that context but not to "lord it" over us. Controlling food; violating young women and boys and other savage characteristics of a demonically inspired leadership is of the enemy. God will utilize things such as fasting and blesses our obedience but doesn't manipulate us against our will which a born again believer in reality has that is conformed to the Spirit; but it is a work in progress. The opposite; of course is stated by cult leaders who themselves like to say they no longer sin; or have achieved some sort of perfection.
Also; there are some things that are only between God and an individual; Revelation 2:17 says the following: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Of course a saved person has no delusions that we can overcome Satan and His powers and principalities through any efforts of their own. Only Christ can fight against the Antichrist Beast as Revelation 13 states; no man has that power and all are under his spell that aren't saved. It isn't our job to do things which are supposed to be done by God; or in the case of Satan being cast from heaven; by Michael the Archangel. If one is presumptuous in this manner they risk what happened to Job; but today of course we know about the enemy of our souls unlike Job so are without excuse.
Repentance: Part 3: Remaining salt and light until He comes
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
In the latter reference; verse 4 talks about leaving our first love. Whether it is an individual implication (as in Matthew) or the church as a whole the concept is basically the same. The warnings could perhaps be a similar result; society at large overtakes any moral standard and we personally are unable to resist the forces of the world; flesh and the devil.
I will restate something I have mentioned previously; and that is there is a separation coming. There are ultimately those saved and lost or wheat and chaff; but time will make this clearly evident that which for the time being may be hidden. Among those who are saved currently many are asleep and compomised. I have seen the debate on whether a Christian can be possessed or merely oppressed. There is no need to get into all that but suffice to say that many are spiritually bound because of sin. We in the Body of Christ who sadly seem blind to much of what is happening seem to hardly ever speak of this issue today; no wonder we have a church like the Corinthians where many are sick and fallen asleep prematurely. This relates to my last post as to what others miss out on when the enemy has us distracted and back on the broad path once again. I don't really get it and wasn't even planning to get into this subject today; but shouldn't we ask ourselves why is it that prayer is almost always focused on physical illnesses and hardly ever on spiritual healing from demonic attacks to lift others up and for them to be set free?
That could be true however there is a unique difference in the way Christ is presented to Lordship over the Church and Lordship in the Kingdom here on earth.
Christ Lordship is over our hearts without any written articles on tablets.
In the Kingdom Christ is ruling with a rod of iron.
In Revelation 12:5 we see the Israel presented as the woman and her children who shall rule the nations with a rod of iron. Christ.
The Church is never identified as the nations or inhabitants of the earth.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 seems to fit Christ ruling here on earth with a rod of iron as presented in other scriptures and that is a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
Other passages;
Revelation 2:27.
Revelation 19:15.
Isaiah 65:16-25 has much to say about this economy.
This echoes Psalms 2:6-9.
"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Scripture says the Church shall reign with Christ.
Revelation 20:6.
2 Timothy 2:12.
Revelation 5:10.
Luke 22:28-30.
The reigning is not a present reality but a future hope for believers.
Matthew 24:37-38 For just like the days of Noah[a] were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 38 For in those days before the flood, people[b] were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. 39 And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away.[c] It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.[d]
Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
We have; as it were seemed to come to a critical mass in discussion of end times-specifically; in regard to the Rapture likelihood this Rosh Hashanah. I will summarize briefly what's going down so that we get information clearly.
There are scriptures in Daniel indicating a certain number of days for Daniel's 70th week which apparently add up 2520 days if I am doing the math right. The concept of the Tribulation being between a Rosh Hashanah and future Yom Kippur 7 years later led to a calculation apparently off by one day that is said never to happen again but indeed will many years from now. If we contemplate a possible 10 day interlude ( Revelation 2:10) that is one possibility for at least some to be either in a few days of the Tribulation or God to judge the church immediately prior to the first seal being opened. There are also indications of past fulfillment in regard to this church. The bigger point here is the Rapture could occur another time and doesn't have to be Rosh Hashanah; even though it is symbolic of the day and hour "idiom" that no one knows; Jesus from the above verses could come a time we don't expect which seems to take that away from being a necessity; however He certainly could come days or weeks before that (any day now). This year is interesting as the only one close to 2520 days for a while (if off by a day or two there is the variability of "official" start to Rosh Hashanah.
Big issue has been wrong calculations naively followed without fact checking.
Deuteronomy 4:30 "When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;"
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Matthew 24:9"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Mark 13:24-27 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," "And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Mark 4:17 "And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended."
Deuteronomy 4:30 "When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;"
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Matthew 24:9"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Mark 13:24-27 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," "And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Brother Jesse, thank you. Wow, your reply is already off the discussion page. When I responded and said no, I will not walk away, I should have included that if I continue to abide in Christ as in John 15:6-7, then I am secure. You say a true believer will not fall away, and I agree, but to me, one who continues to abide in Christ is a true believer, and the Holy Spirit will strengthen them to endure until the end if we walk in the Spirit.
Should we ask what salvation truly is? Is it a one-time event, as it is often strongly preached today, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, or is it a lifelong journey? I see salvation as encompassing the past, present, and future. When we accept Jesus through faith, our past sins are forgiven, we are justified by faith, declared innocent of sin, and covered with a white garment, clean and pure.
We then begin a lifetime of sanctification, becoming more like Christ, and we must continually repent of our sins, walking in the Spirit to keep our garments spotless, as 1 John 1:9 states. I believe this is why there are so many warnings that we must endure, to overcome, and keep our garments spotless. We must maintain our garments, which signify a lifelong relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit on the way to our glorification when we are resurrected.
Our robes are made white not by us but, Revelation 7:14, unrepentant sin defiles, Revelation 3:4-5, staying steadfast in our faith, Revelation 16:15. This is lifelong; we are to be faithful until our death, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:11. There is a reason for these many warnings; we should at least ask why.
We are not far apart. First, to answer your question, will I walk away? The answer is NO! I know Romans 1:28 didn't fit, but it reflects what I was thinking of someone I knew when I wrote it. Only God knows the heart of man. What was in my mind was a person I knew, and anyone who knew them would say this person was a true Christian.
This person lost a child, and they completely changed. Over time, they turned into the opposite of who they were, and this verse fits what I saw happen to this person. This is one of the reasons I believe someone can fall away; only God knows if that is what happened. John 6:44, we may see this as the gospel today, the words of God are preached, which draws people, but that is not coming to Christ himself.
Then we have Matthew 22:14: Many are called, but few are chosen. Some who hear will fully embrace it and be accepted by God, while others will not. We are drawn or called, but is it not up to us to go and believe?
How do we understand verses like Hebrews 3:12-14? This is directed at those in Christ. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, My understanding, this goes with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Revelation 13:7-10; here is the patience of the saints. This is a true falling away, John 1.5:4-6; we must continue to abide in Him. Romans 11:19-22, we can be cut off.
James 1:12 is another blessed is a man that endureth, if he does, he will receive a crown of life. As in Revelation 2:10, faithful unto death. I respect you, but to me, there are too many warnings to endure and overcome until our death. We cannot ignore that; we must encourage each other to stay strong in our faith.
Not to spark another debate, I believe the great falling away is connected to when the beast rises and the persecution begins. Many think they will be taken out, but are not; they will be here. My understanding is Christ will never forsake us; the only thing that can separate us from Him is us.
Chris has given you a good reply. However, if we examine the saying, "once saved, always saved," it can be true or false; we can use Scripture to support or refute it. So where does that leave us?
In John 3:16, it says that if we believe in Jesus, we will be saved. Jesus promises never to fail. Salvation is based on the grace of God, through faith, not by our efforts, Ephesians 2:8-9. Our salvation depends on the righteousness of Christ and God's mercy, Titus 3:5.
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23-24. We are justified not by works of the law but by faith, Galatians 2:16. We are called not because of our works but because of God's purpose and grace given to us through Jesus, 2 Timothy 1:9.
Our salvation is founded on our faith in Jesus Christ. In John 10:27-29, we are His sheep, hear His voice, follow Him, and are granted eternal life, which no one can take from His hand. Our salvation is secure because it relies on Jesus' work. As Hebrews 10:23 states, we are to hold fast to our faith without wavering because He is faithful.
Conversely, there is the risk of apostasy or falling away. Luke 8:4-15 illustrates this. In verse 13, it describes someone who received the word with joy and believed for a while but fell away when tempted. This person was a believer who later turned away; individuals can walk away on their own.
We must live by faith and be led by the Spirit. Paul says in Colossians 1:23, "If ye continue in the faith." We also see in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 about the great falling away when the beast rises, along with many other verses too numerous to list that emphasize we must endure to the end, like Revelation 2:10, also we are told to hold fast. If we remain strong in our faith, nothing can take our salvation away.
I understand that some say those who fall away were never truly saved, but I do not see that supported by Scripture, and it may be false hope for one who is weak.
As a rule; there were almost no personal prayers mentioned in the New Testament. We don't have record of most of Jesus' prayers and discussions with God but in terms of the Apostles the closest we get is Paul asking for boldness ( Ephesians 6:19-20).
This is intriguing indeed considering how bold Paul already was as to a prayer He would ask others to give on his behalf. Paul's prayers were ever for the church who He prayed for day and night; in the case of 2 Timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night (was said by Paul to Timothy).
Ephesians 3:14-21 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
This beautiful prayer certainly shows Paul's wishes for the Ephesian church; which makes the situation in Revelation 2:1-7 even more pitiful. They had forgotten their first love.
And of course as I am sure I pointed out before we have prayers for Peter's escape from prison ( Acts 12:5-17) and Paul's miraculous escape also Acts 16:25-34 when prayer and praise of Paul and Silas was followed by the gates opening. This would lead at least the jailor and his family to faith in the Lord.
Spiritual gifts: Continuing thoughts on avoiding "damnable heresies" ( 2 Peter 2:1)
Continuing with the concept of teaching as a spiritual gift; we see in light of the manifold witness of Peter and Paul the dangers prophesied to come even imminently after their departure of wolves among the flock and within. There is more to the Word than just instruction based on human understanding; or else it would be impossible for error to creep in. Dirst there is twisting of scripture to align with an errant concept and that opens the door for alternative writings such as gnostic teachings or that of other religions. The exclusivity of the Word is something only the Spirit can truly illuminate our minds on. We can in our own strength have tenacity in such a matter "sola scriptura" but even the Ephesians church doing everything right on the outside lost their first love ( Revelation 2:4 left their first love). Once left; it becomes lost it would seem; perhaps among the remnant who are faithful it may be temporarily out of mind but as for the corporate body the Spirit may not by and large be residing there and there is danger it could become dead as Ephesians 5:14 warns about and Revelation 3:2 with the church of Sardis shows can happen at some point. Sobering words.
Legalism is the other side of the coin as to misuse of scripture that also can cause great damage. That is the result of not treating others as part of a spiritual body where all members are needed and "lording it over" them. We see this attitude in certain independent churches (I will leave out denominations here). This type of fellowship not only alienates those of a local fellowship but can prevent healthy interactions with believers elsewhere that can have a positive impact. Again balance is required; while we don't want to have a mutual exclusivity or proclaimed monopoly of the truth as the only ones preaching the true Gospel; caution is needed when working with other churches as error is rife.
What we can say with some assurance is that certain verses of scripture are being fulfilled; the biggest general one being an increase in knowledge and travel ( Daniel 12:4). In fact; the idea of the Gospel being preached to the whole world along with some other statements in Revelation seem to show an worldwide network of video which we have today.
To warn of anything clearly prophetic in scripture for now and the future is being obedient to sounding the trumpet as Ezekiel warns we must do (See Ezekiel 33). God does nothing without warning the prophets ( Amos 3:7). This is certainly true during the time of Jacob's trouble with the 2 witnesses and 144,000 Jews proclaiming the Kingdom to come but certainly there is a need to preach repentance today as many of the promises and warnings to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 have direct application today; especially the Revelation 3:10 praise to the Philadelphia church; and likely Revelation 2:22-25 to Thyratira where it appears many could be left behind who are caught up with seducing spirits or literal immorality with seductive women.
Revelation 18:5 talks about Mystery Babylon and her sins piling up into heaven and whether our nation is Babylon or it is centered in Israel itself or the new city planned for Abu Dhabi we can certainly say with the statement in Daniel that in general leaders have become completely wicked ( Daniel 8:23) is the season for Antichrist to appear. No doubt also our sins in America align with many statements about a mingled people that used to know God and have prostituted themselves; in our case with sex traffic and pornography that we have either directly supported or turned a blind eye to; to the countless millions of lives terminated in the womb; to the shocking number of crimes in this country; etc.
I will say this as a positive note for those who are out there giving the alarm that it is a necessary practice; the church is mostly asleep.
Brother, of course I don't mind! This being an open forum, anything that's posted is open for anyone to comment. As I have mentioned to you before, I value the things you have to share, whether we differ in understanding or not.
As you mentioned, I do see that this little scroll in Revelation 2:10 was open but in Chapter 5 it speaks of a scroll that was sealed. So, does this mean that the book in Chapter 5 is not the same book we see in Chapter 10? Or, is it possible that the book had been opened, and then given to this messenger (mighty angel) to bring and show to John?
I tend to believe that this could be the same book. In Revelation 5:7, the Lamb came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne. In Verse 9, it tells us that He is worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof. So, do you think there's any possibility at all that this open scroll this mighty angel (Gabriel?) was holding in Chapter 10 was the same scroll opened by the Lamb in Chapter 5?
In Revelation 5:9, we see that the Lamb (Christ) is the redeemer. He has redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. So, we know that it's not just Jewish but all people. We will be praising Him for being our redeemer, who has purchased the title deed to the earth, and our salvation.
What I find interesting in Chapter 10 is that this angel (messenger) comes in the authority of Christ. He has this small book (opened), and the position he takes in Verse 2 is the same posture or position one would take when claiming a title deed to a piece of property.
Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. May we all continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Reading Revelation brought to mind the responsibility of character ( 1 Samuel 12:3). When the Lord says that he "knows the deeds", he is not only referring to the action, but to the disposition of the heart that moves it. Love, service, faith and patience ( 2 Timothy 4:7)
As for the false doctrine mentioned, I am amazed at the cunning of those who promote sin as a method of knowing the truth. Isn't that the most dangerous of lies? What grace would there be if holiness were indifferent? ( Galatians 1:6)
Christ, however, places no burden on those who remain faithful ( Jeremiah 23).
Revelation 2:26 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he who is overcoming, again that's a Present Participle. He who (is) overcoming, and keeps my works. The word keeps is not to do. It's TEREO, which means to guard against outside influence interfering with the Lord's works. Who keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:28 - And I will give him the morning star.
Beginning in the book of Numbers, there's a prophecy given to the Jews that the star represented the Messiah. In Revelation 22:16, we will see that Jesus says He is the morning star. It represents the Messianic rule of Christ.
Revelation 3:3 - Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. The phrase "hold fast" is the word TEREO which means to guard.
In Verse 20, we see the correction to the church in Thyatira. Some key verses to go along with Revelation 2:20 would be 1 Kings 16:30-32; 21:25-26; 2 Kings 8:18; Isaiah 47:10; and Nahum 3:4-5.
King Ahab fell to the seductions of Jezebel, and she got him to convert the various places of worship over to pagan worship.
She had 850 prophets available to her at any time. And she seduced the people to join her little private religious movement to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.
We know from Verse 21 that she was given the opportunity to repent but did not repent.
So, were they expected to do something about it? My thoughts are that if the Lord had something against their church, they had better take heed and get themselves in line!
I would like to touch on a couple of things in verses 14 and 15.
Revelation 2:14-15.
But I have a few things against thee, BECAUSE THOU HAST THERE THEM that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
SO HAST THOU ALSO THEM that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
It seems the deeds of the Nicolaitanes has progressed to doctrine.
But the what I would also like to point out is that the Lord is contending with them because because of "some" of them within the group holds these doctrines.
He says "BECAUSE THOU HAST THERE THEM that hold the doctrine of Balaam, and "SO HAST THOU ALSO THEM that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
It seems that the Lord upset that they were allowing or suffering these false doctrines to coexist along with the truth!
Likewise to the Church of Thyatira Vs 20.
"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, (BECAUSE THOU SUFFEREST THAT WOMAN JEZEBEL, WHICH CALLETH HERSELF A PROPHETESS, TO TEACH AND TO SEDUCE MY SERVANTS) to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
It seems that they are expected to do something about it but they are allowing it!
Revelation 2:19 - I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
I know your works, and love. That's AGAPE, and your service, DIAKANOS, which is where we get our word Deacon from. And your faith, and your patience, which is the word endurance. And your works; the last more than the first.
They were a progressive church. They were busy laboring and working more at this point than at the beginning.
Revelation 2:23 - And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
As we read through the book of Revelation, we will find the great harlot who is an emblem of the false religious church, which has a woman as the head who seduces people into her beliefs.
Revelation 2:24 - But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
But I say unto you, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak;
One of the doctrines of Jezebel was "How do you know what sin is unless you experience it?" They put great emphasis on going out and committing sin, so you know what it is. And she says there's no harm in that because God will forgive us.
So as many as have this doctrine, and have not known the depths of Satan, as they say; I will put upon you no other burden.
It says here, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows saving he that receives it.
Now, I thought this would be something good to share. There was a movement several years ago where people would go around to the churches and say, "You know that God has a new name for you, and I have the special ministry to know what your new name is!"
And so, people would line up in these churches and some guy would stand up front and each person that came up, he would put his hand on them and tell them what their new name was. He would tell them that throughout eternity, this is what your new name is going to be. Can you imagine somebody having a ministry like that?
God says that the new name that He puts on His people is His name. So, if you read a little further, you'll save some money, plus some heartache. You stand before God and you say "Well, they told me that my names going to be Harry." No, it isn't. You're going to have God's name.
Revelation 2:17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, again plural.
The exhortation to this church:
To the one who is overcoming, again, this is a Present Participle. It's not a challenge. It's a description. To the one who is overcoming, will I give to eat of the hidden manna. In John Chapter 6, Jesus presented Himself as the hidden manna. The Jews knew about the literal manna in the wilderness. This is the spiritual manna.
And I will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except the one who is receiving it. Now the white stone in the Old Testament, in the judicial system, was a sign of not guilty, or innocent. In Luke Chapter 1, they used the same system. You remember Elisabeth and Zacharias; the lot fell on Zacharias to burn incense in the temple.
What they did is they took what looked like dark marbles, but one of them was white. And out of the thousands of priests that were in Jerusalem at the time, you would only serve two one-week sessions. And so, all the priests would gather around this bag and draw the marbles out, and the one who drew the white marble got to burn the incense before the altar. And a priest would be fortunate if he got to do it once in his lifetime. And of course, Zacharias, in Luke Chapter 1, he chose that white stone.
Revelation 2:12 - And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Here is just some "gee-whiz" information I would like to share. We saw this back in Verse 16 of Chapter 1, and we'll see it again at His second coming. This is the large Thracian Sword that is used for cutting off the heads of opposing armies as the last event of winning a war. It was a common practice at the end of each war to take the opposing general and have his head cut off by this huge sword. You had to hold it with two hands because it was so big, and it was sharp on both edges.
Revelation 2:13 - I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
He says I know your works, and I know where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is. You see, Pergamos was the great religious seat of the old Babylonian system.
And that you hold firm my name. That was very important back then. When they came through and asked everyone who's Lord, Caesar or Jesus? And as a Christian, if you said Jesus, your life was taken, and if you said Caesar, you were spared. But they said we hold firm to the Lord's name, even in the midst of this headquarters of the old Babylonian system.
And you have not denied my faith. Notice what it says. It's in the Possessive Pronoun. The Lord says it's my faith. That's the Lord speaking. You have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas, and we know nothing about him, other than then fact that he died a martyr's death.
Wherein Antipas, was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
Revelation 2:11 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches;
And by the way, that is a command. Even Jesus, when He used it in the Parable of the Sower, He says he that has ears to hear, let him hear. That's a command for people who have the heart to hear and want to listen. It's a command for them to hear.
The exhortation for the church:
He that overcometh, and again, that's not a challenge. It's a Present Participle. To the one who is overcoming, shall not be hurt of the second death. Later on, in the book of Revelation, we will learn that there is a death called the second death which is when people are cast into the lake of fire. That is the second death because all non-believers who have died are going to stand before the judgment of God, and they will be sent into the lake of fire.
There's an old saying that says "A believer is born twice but dies once!" I'm born physically, and I'm born spiritually. I will die once, and then I will live with Christ throughout eternity. A non-believer is born once but dies twice. They're born physically; that's it! They die physically, and then they have to stand before the throne of God and experience what the bible calls the second death.
Here, the promise is to the one who is overcoming, shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:10 - Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Literally, here's what it says: Fear none of those things which you are about to suffer. So, he's telling them you're suffering now, but there's some things that you're going to suffer, so don't fear.
Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation (THLIPSIS) ten days: Now the term ten days is a Jewish phrase that's taken from Daniel Chapter 1. Three times, the term ten days is used to represent a fixed period of time.
So, he's telling them that there's a fixed period of time that you're going to have tribulation. You're going to be imprisoned. There will be tribulation. But he says be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life.
He's telling them about the hardships that they're going through. And remember, the entire book of Revelation as we know it, was written to believers who were being persecuted, and they were asking the question "Where's the victory?"
If Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, where's the victory? Why am I sitting in this jail cell? Why am I seeing my brothers and sisters in Christ being put to death?
John was allowed to see this time when the victory of Christ comes. In the meantime, there's an encouragement for believers to hang in there and keep the faith, even if you have to die. Victory is still coming. And as we read through this book, it will be an encouragement!
Revelation 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
He says I know your works, and tribulation. This is not the Great Tribulation. This is THLIPSIS, the Greek word that has to do with stress, the normal thing that God says all of His people will experience. I know your works, I know your affliction, and I know your poverty.
But notice this: (but you are rich) and I know the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. So, the Jews had a synagogue there. But they were not believers. Those are harsh words. They say they're Jews, but they're not. They are not representing God. They've rejected the Messiah.
But they are of the synagogue of Satan. Wow, that's pretty harsh!
Revelation 2:7 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, notice plural, churches;
So not only were they to listen to the message of their particular church, but also to all of the churches.
The exhortation for the church: To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
We read this about the one who overcometh, and I am very happy to share this information with you. This is not a challenge in the Greek text. It sounds like it. It says to him that overcomes, and people see that and say "I've got to overcome and then I'll receive this reward!"
In every instance that it's found, at the end of every message in Chapters 2 and 3, this word overcome is what is called a Present Participle. It describes the person who is already overcoming. It's not a challenge for people to do it.
You can go back to 1 John Chapter 5, the first four verses, and it describes for you, along with Chapter 4 Verse 4, that we have overcome the world, we have overcome the antichrist, because greater is He that lives in us, than he that's in the world. We already have overcome them. It's not a challenge!
So, to the one who is overcoming, I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. It started back in Genesis 2:9, all the way through Genesis Chapter 3. The tree of life is removed from the scene until we get into Revelation Chapter 22, and we will see that as part of the promise, provision, and reward of God's people.
Jesus Christ is still the head of the church. There are leaders that are to be in position to be of service to Christ, but if anybody in the church should be sensitive, and humbled to God speaking through the people in the church, and the congregation, it ought to be the leaders.
We're all equal. If God wanted me to be a leader, it would not be because I'm more special than anybody else. He might call me to that particular function, but that doesn't mean that once I start functioning in that area, that I know the Lord better than you do.
Many churches have fallen because the leaders took human control over the church, and they themselves were not governed by God's Spirit. The deeds of the Nicolaitans, the lording it over the flock, the human democracy over God's people, God says He hates.
That doesn't mean that there cannot be administration. But Christians today function like Jesus Christ ascended up into heaven and left us here to do His work for Him. No, He's still here. He's still the head of the church. He's our leader. And if you're in leadership, you still look to the leader who is Jesus Christ.
Revelation 2:6 - But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
He says, "Oh, by the way, you've got some other good points about you." You hate the deeds, the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
There are two views as to what the Nicolaitans are. One view is that the Nicolaitans were led by a man named Nicholas. He's mentioned back in Acts 6:5. He's one of the men that were chosen to distribute bread to the Greek speaking Jewish community. Some historical documents say that Nicholas left the church and became a Gnostic, and began spreading false teaching.
There is another view, which appears to be the correct view, since the Nicolaitans were not even that well established at this time as far as Nicholas goes. The word Nicolaitan is made up of two Greek words, and I've shared this a few years ago and this website rejected my post because I used a Greek word that is copyrighted by the name of a sports sneaker with a swoosh symbol. You probably know which shoe I am referring to.
But the first word is pronounced NEE-KAY and the second word is LAOS. NEE-KAY means overcome, and LAOS means the people. It represented the democratic control of the people in the church, where the leaders ruled. They lorded it over the flock. And the Lord says I hate that!
If we have a person that we love the most, we'll make decisions to honor that person, and cater to that person above the Lord, because after all, the Lord loves us, and it's an age of grace and He understands, you know? People don't, so we don't want people angry at us or upset at us!
But even Jesus, when He was here in the flesh, He said if anybody loves mother or father, or brother or sister, or wife, or lands, or houses above me, you can't be my disciple. That's pretty tough! In one place, He actually used the word hate. That's not the word for hate in the sense of hateful actions. MISEO is a word of comparison. In other words, Jesus said you must love me so much that others think you hate them.
It doesn't mean you go home and kick everybody in the shins and say the Lord told me to hate you to show my love for Him. No, it doesn't mean that. It means you're so devoted and committed to Christ that everybody else thinks you hate them, which isn't true.
Ephesus is the example of the apostolic church, the apostolic church that held firm to the apostle's doctrine, that had such a fervent love for the Lord, but it began to wane, and it became dull. And it became "church as usual." People dedicated themselves to the church and church work, but privately, Christ was not a priority. This was the apostolic church which ran from A.D. 30 through A.D. 300.
First, on reigning with Christ: I agree Revelation 2:26-27 promises ruling authority to overcomers at Thyatira, and Revelation 20:4 shows martyrs from "all nations" sharing in Christ's rule. The question is not whether redeemed people reign, but who reigns where within God's revealed programs. Paul discloses a "one new man" ( Eph 2:15) called the Body of Christ, blessed "in heavenly places" and seated there now ( Eph 1:3; 2:6). Israel, by contrast, is promised an earthly kingdom under Messiah ( Isa 2:1-4; Jer 23:5-6; Matt 19:28; Acts 1:6; 3:19-21). Both realms are under the same Lord, but the stewardships and destinations differ ( 2 Tim 2:12; 1 Cor 6:2-3).
That leads to the Bride question. Dispensationally, the Body of Christ is not the Bride of Christ. In Scripture, bridal/marriage language is consistently tied to Israel and Zion:
"Thy Maker is thine husband" ( Isa 54:5).
"I will betroth thee unto me for ever" ( Hos 2:19-20).
"As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee" ( Isa 62:4-5).
In Revelation the identification becomes explicit: "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wifeand he shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem" ( Rev 21:9-10). The city bears Israel's fingerprints-twelve tribes on its gates and the twelve apostles on its foundations ( Rev 21:12-14). Moreover, the wife in Revelation 19:7-8 is arrayed in "fine linenthe righteous acts of saints," fitting the works-tested, kingdom saints who endure (cf. Matt 24:13; Rev 14:12), not the grace-standing, already-perfected righteousness imputed to the Body ( Rom 3:21-26; Phil 3:9).
see pg2
Amen, brother, thank you. Obedience is the evidence of our faith; we cannot ignore all of the Scripture on enduring and overcoming. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Corinthians 13:7, Hebrews 12:7, James 1:12, 1 John 2:13-14, Revelation 2:7,11,17,22, Revelation 21:7. I could list more, but just these cannot be ignored, and if we do, we are deceived.
God bless,
RLW
Dying to self nonetheless IS exactly that; but not at the expense of the dignity of a person. No place in scripture do we see an Apostle of God demanding allegiance; that is left alone to He who sought us and bought us with His redeeming blood (Title I believe is Victory in Jesus).
The God of heaven is concerned with care for His people and thus feeds His sheep. In this love of course He chastises all those He loves; and can use people to rebuke us in that context but not to "lord it" over us. Controlling food; violating young women and boys and other savage characteristics of a demonically inspired leadership is of the enemy. God will utilize things such as fasting and blesses our obedience but doesn't manipulate us against our will which a born again believer in reality has that is conformed to the Spirit; but it is a work in progress. The opposite; of course is stated by cult leaders who themselves like to say they no longer sin; or have achieved some sort of perfection.
Also; there are some things that are only between God and an individual; Revelation 2:17 says the following: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Of course a saved person has no delusions that we can overcome Satan and His powers and principalities through any efforts of their own. Only Christ can fight against the Antichrist Beast as Revelation 13 states; no man has that power and all are under his spell that aren't saved. It isn't our job to do things which are supposed to be done by God; or in the case of Satan being cast from heaven; by Michael the Archangel. If one is presumptuous in this manner they risk what happened to Job; but today of course we know about the enemy of our souls unlike Job so are without excuse.
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
In the latter reference; verse 4 talks about leaving our first love. Whether it is an individual implication (as in Matthew) or the church as a whole the concept is basically the same. The warnings could perhaps be a similar result; society at large overtakes any moral standard and we personally are unable to resist the forces of the world; flesh and the devil.
I will restate something I have mentioned previously; and that is there is a separation coming. There are ultimately those saved and lost or wheat and chaff; but time will make this clearly evident that which for the time being may be hidden. Among those who are saved currently many are asleep and compomised. I have seen the debate on whether a Christian can be possessed or merely oppressed. There is no need to get into all that but suffice to say that many are spiritually bound because of sin. We in the Body of Christ who sadly seem blind to much of what is happening seem to hardly ever speak of this issue today; no wonder we have a church like the Corinthians where many are sick and fallen asleep prematurely. This relates to my last post as to what others miss out on when the enemy has us distracted and back on the broad path once again. I don't really get it and wasn't even planning to get into this subject today; but shouldn't we ask ourselves why is it that prayer is almost always focused on physical illnesses and hardly ever on spiritual healing from demonic attacks to lift others up and for them to be set free?
That could be true however there is a unique difference in the way Christ is presented to Lordship over the Church and Lordship in the Kingdom here on earth.
Christ Lordship is over our hearts without any written articles on tablets.
In the Kingdom Christ is ruling with a rod of iron.
In Revelation 12:5 we see the Israel presented as the woman and her children who shall rule the nations with a rod of iron. Christ.
The Church is never identified as the nations or inhabitants of the earth.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 seems to fit Christ ruling here on earth with a rod of iron as presented in other scriptures and that is a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
Other passages;
Revelation 2:27.
Revelation 19:15.
Isaiah 65:16-25 has much to say about this economy.
This echoes Psalms 2:6-9.
"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Scripture says the Church shall reign with Christ.
Revelation 20:6.
2 Timothy 2:12.
Revelation 5:10.
Luke 22:28-30.
The reigning is not a present reality but a future hope for believers.
Blessings.
Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
We have; as it were seemed to come to a critical mass in discussion of end times-specifically; in regard to the Rapture likelihood this Rosh Hashanah. I will summarize briefly what's going down so that we get information clearly.
There are scriptures in Daniel indicating a certain number of days for Daniel's 70th week which apparently add up 2520 days if I am doing the math right. The concept of the Tribulation being between a Rosh Hashanah and future Yom Kippur 7 years later led to a calculation apparently off by one day that is said never to happen again but indeed will many years from now. If we contemplate a possible 10 day interlude ( Revelation 2:10) that is one possibility for at least some to be either in a few days of the Tribulation or God to judge the church immediately prior to the first seal being opened. There are also indications of past fulfillment in regard to this church. The bigger point here is the Rapture could occur another time and doesn't have to be Rosh Hashanah; even though it is symbolic of the day and hour "idiom" that no one knows; Jesus from the above verses could come a time we don't expect which seems to take that away from being a necessity; however He certainly could come days or weeks before that (any day now). This year is interesting as the only one close to 2520 days for a while (if off by a day or two there is the variability of "official" start to Rosh Hashanah.
Big issue has been wrong calculations naively followed without fact checking.
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Matthew 24:9"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Mark 13:24-27 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," "And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Blessings
Mark 4:17 "And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended."
Deuteronomy 4:30 "When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;"
Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Matthew 24:9"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Mark 13:24-27 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light," "And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken." "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Blessings
Should we ask what salvation truly is? Is it a one-time event, as it is often strongly preached today, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, or is it a lifelong journey? I see salvation as encompassing the past, present, and future. When we accept Jesus through faith, our past sins are forgiven, we are justified by faith, declared innocent of sin, and covered with a white garment, clean and pure.
We then begin a lifetime of sanctification, becoming more like Christ, and we must continually repent of our sins, walking in the Spirit to keep our garments spotless, as 1 John 1:9 states. I believe this is why there are so many warnings that we must endure, to overcome, and keep our garments spotless. We must maintain our garments, which signify a lifelong relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit on the way to our glorification when we are resurrected.
Our robes are made white not by us but, Revelation 7:14, unrepentant sin defiles, Revelation 3:4-5, staying steadfast in our faith, Revelation 16:15. This is lifelong; we are to be faithful until our death, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:11. There is a reason for these many warnings; we should at least ask why.
Thank you, brother.
God bless,
RLW
We are not far apart. First, to answer your question, will I walk away? The answer is NO! I know Romans 1:28 didn't fit, but it reflects what I was thinking of someone I knew when I wrote it. Only God knows the heart of man. What was in my mind was a person I knew, and anyone who knew them would say this person was a true Christian.
This person lost a child, and they completely changed. Over time, they turned into the opposite of who they were, and this verse fits what I saw happen to this person. This is one of the reasons I believe someone can fall away; only God knows if that is what happened. John 6:44, we may see this as the gospel today, the words of God are preached, which draws people, but that is not coming to Christ himself.
Then we have Matthew 22:14: Many are called, but few are chosen. Some who hear will fully embrace it and be accepted by God, while others will not. We are drawn or called, but is it not up to us to go and believe?
How do we understand verses like Hebrews 3:12-14? This is directed at those in Christ. 1 Timothy 4:1-2, My understanding, this goes with 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Revelation 13:7-10; here is the patience of the saints. This is a true falling away, John 1.5:4-6; we must continue to abide in Him. Romans 11:19-22, we can be cut off.
James 1:12 is another blessed is a man that endureth, if he does, he will receive a crown of life. As in Revelation 2:10, faithful unto death. I respect you, but to me, there are too many warnings to endure and overcome until our death. We cannot ignore that; we must encourage each other to stay strong in our faith.
Not to spark another debate, I believe the great falling away is connected to when the beast rises and the persecution begins. Many think they will be taken out, but are not; they will be here. My understanding is Christ will never forsake us; the only thing that can separate us from Him is us.
Thanks again, brother,
God bless,
RLW
Chris has given you a good reply. However, if we examine the saying, "once saved, always saved," it can be true or false; we can use Scripture to support or refute it. So where does that leave us?
In John 3:16, it says that if we believe in Jesus, we will be saved. Jesus promises never to fail. Salvation is based on the grace of God, through faith, not by our efforts, Ephesians 2:8-9. Our salvation depends on the righteousness of Christ and God's mercy, Titus 3:5.
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23-24. We are justified not by works of the law but by faith, Galatians 2:16. We are called not because of our works but because of God's purpose and grace given to us through Jesus, 2 Timothy 1:9.
Our salvation is founded on our faith in Jesus Christ. In John 10:27-29, we are His sheep, hear His voice, follow Him, and are granted eternal life, which no one can take from His hand. Our salvation is secure because it relies on Jesus' work. As Hebrews 10:23 states, we are to hold fast to our faith without wavering because He is faithful.
Conversely, there is the risk of apostasy or falling away. Luke 8:4-15 illustrates this. In verse 13, it describes someone who received the word with joy and believed for a while but fell away when tempted. This person was a believer who later turned away; individuals can walk away on their own.
We must live by faith and be led by the Spirit. Paul says in Colossians 1:23, "If ye continue in the faith." We also see in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 about the great falling away when the beast rises, along with many other verses too numerous to list that emphasize we must endure to the end, like Revelation 2:10, also we are told to hold fast. If we remain strong in our faith, nothing can take our salvation away.
I understand that some say those who fall away were never truly saved, but I do not see that supported by Scripture, and it may be false hope for one who is weak.
God bless,
RLW
This is intriguing indeed considering how bold Paul already was as to a prayer He would ask others to give on his behalf. Paul's prayers were ever for the church who He prayed for day and night; in the case of 2 Timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night (was said by Paul to Timothy).
Ephesians 3:14-21 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
This beautiful prayer certainly shows Paul's wishes for the Ephesian church; which makes the situation in Revelation 2:1-7 even more pitiful. They had forgotten their first love.
And of course as I am sure I pointed out before we have prayers for Peter's escape from prison ( Acts 12:5-17) and Paul's miraculous escape also Acts 16:25-34 when prayer and praise of Paul and Silas was followed by the gates opening. This would lead at least the jailor and his family to faith in the Lord.
Continuing with the concept of teaching as a spiritual gift; we see in light of the manifold witness of Peter and Paul the dangers prophesied to come even imminently after their departure of wolves among the flock and within. There is more to the Word than just instruction based on human understanding; or else it would be impossible for error to creep in. Dirst there is twisting of scripture to align with an errant concept and that opens the door for alternative writings such as gnostic teachings or that of other religions. The exclusivity of the Word is something only the Spirit can truly illuminate our minds on. We can in our own strength have tenacity in such a matter "sola scriptura" but even the Ephesians church doing everything right on the outside lost their first love ( Revelation 2:4 left their first love). Once left; it becomes lost it would seem; perhaps among the remnant who are faithful it may be temporarily out of mind but as for the corporate body the Spirit may not by and large be residing there and there is danger it could become dead as Ephesians 5:14 warns about and Revelation 3:2 with the church of Sardis shows can happen at some point. Sobering words.
Legalism is the other side of the coin as to misuse of scripture that also can cause great damage. That is the result of not treating others as part of a spiritual body where all members are needed and "lording it over" them. We see this attitude in certain independent churches (I will leave out denominations here). This type of fellowship not only alienates those of a local fellowship but can prevent healthy interactions with believers elsewhere that can have a positive impact. Again balance is required; while we don't want to have a mutual exclusivity or proclaimed monopoly of the truth as the only ones preaching the true Gospel; caution is needed when working with other churches as error is rife.
What we can say with some assurance is that certain verses of scripture are being fulfilled; the biggest general one being an increase in knowledge and travel ( Daniel 12:4). In fact; the idea of the Gospel being preached to the whole world along with some other statements in Revelation seem to show an worldwide network of video which we have today.
To warn of anything clearly prophetic in scripture for now and the future is being obedient to sounding the trumpet as Ezekiel warns we must do (See Ezekiel 33). God does nothing without warning the prophets ( Amos 3:7). This is certainly true during the time of Jacob's trouble with the 2 witnesses and 144,000 Jews proclaiming the Kingdom to come but certainly there is a need to preach repentance today as many of the promises and warnings to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 have direct application today; especially the Revelation 3:10 praise to the Philadelphia church; and likely Revelation 2:22-25 to Thyratira where it appears many could be left behind who are caught up with seducing spirits or literal immorality with seductive women.
Revelation 18:5 talks about Mystery Babylon and her sins piling up into heaven and whether our nation is Babylon or it is centered in Israel itself or the new city planned for Abu Dhabi we can certainly say with the statement in Daniel that in general leaders have become completely wicked ( Daniel 8:23) is the season for Antichrist to appear. No doubt also our sins in America align with many statements about a mingled people that used to know God and have prostituted themselves; in our case with sex traffic and pornography that we have either directly supported or turned a blind eye to; to the countless millions of lives terminated in the womb; to the shocking number of crimes in this country; etc.
I will say this as a positive note for those who are out there giving the alarm that it is a necessary practice; the church is mostly asleep.
Brother, of course I don't mind! This being an open forum, anything that's posted is open for anyone to comment. As I have mentioned to you before, I value the things you have to share, whether we differ in understanding or not.
As you mentioned, I do see that this little scroll in Revelation 2:10 was open but in Chapter 5 it speaks of a scroll that was sealed. So, does this mean that the book in Chapter 5 is not the same book we see in Chapter 10? Or, is it possible that the book had been opened, and then given to this messenger (mighty angel) to bring and show to John?
I tend to believe that this could be the same book. In Revelation 5:7, the Lamb came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat on the throne. In Verse 9, it tells us that He is worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof. So, do you think there's any possibility at all that this open scroll this mighty angel (Gabriel?) was holding in Chapter 10 was the same scroll opened by the Lamb in Chapter 5?
In Revelation 5:9, we see that the Lamb (Christ) is the redeemer. He has redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. So, we know that it's not just Jewish but all people. We will be praising Him for being our redeemer, who has purchased the title deed to the earth, and our salvation.
What I find interesting in Chapter 10 is that this angel (messenger) comes in the authority of Christ. He has this small book (opened), and the position he takes in Verse 2 is the same posture or position one would take when claiming a title deed to a piece of property.
Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. May we all continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
God Bless!!!
Reading Revelation brought to mind the responsibility of character ( 1 Samuel 12:3). When the Lord says that he "knows the deeds", he is not only referring to the action, but to the disposition of the heart that moves it. Love, service, faith and patience ( 2 Timothy 4:7)
As for the false doctrine mentioned, I am amazed at the cunning of those who promote sin as a method of knowing the truth. Isn't that the most dangerous of lies? What grace would there be if holiness were indifferent? ( Galatians 1:6)
Christ, however, places no burden on those who remain faithful ( Jeremiah 23).
Revelation 2:26 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he who is overcoming, again that's a Present Participle. He who (is) overcoming, and keeps my works. The word keeps is not to do. It's TEREO, which means to guard against outside influence interfering with the Lord's works. Who keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:28 - And I will give him the morning star.
Beginning in the book of Numbers, there's a prophecy given to the Jews that the star represented the Messiah. In Revelation 22:16, we will see that Jesus says He is the morning star. It represents the Messianic rule of Christ.
Revelation 3:3 - Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. The phrase "hold fast" is the word TEREO which means to guard.
In Verse 20, we see the correction to the church in Thyatira. Some key verses to go along with Revelation 2:20 would be 1 Kings 16:30-32; 21:25-26; 2 Kings 8:18; Isaiah 47:10; and Nahum 3:4-5.
King Ahab fell to the seductions of Jezebel, and she got him to convert the various places of worship over to pagan worship.
She had 850 prophets available to her at any time. And she seduced the people to join her little private religious movement to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.
We know from Verse 21 that she was given the opportunity to repent but did not repent.
So, were they expected to do something about it? My thoughts are that if the Lord had something against their church, they had better take heed and get themselves in line!
Again, thanks for bringing in those verses.
God Bless!!!
The letter to Pergamos
I would like to touch on a couple of things in verses 14 and 15.
Revelation 2:14-15.
But I have a few things against thee, BECAUSE THOU HAST THERE THEM that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
SO HAST THOU ALSO THEM that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
It seems the deeds of the Nicolaitanes has progressed to doctrine.
But the what I would also like to point out is that the Lord is contending with them because because of "some" of them within the group holds these doctrines.
He says "BECAUSE THOU HAST THERE THEM that hold the doctrine of Balaam, and "SO HAST THOU ALSO THEM that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
It seems that the Lord upset that they were allowing or suffering these false doctrines to coexist along with the truth!
Likewise to the Church of Thyatira Vs 20.
"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, (BECAUSE THOU SUFFEREST THAT WOMAN JEZEBEL, WHICH CALLETH HERSELF A PROPHETESS, TO TEACH AND TO SEDUCE MY SERVANTS) to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
It seems that they are expected to do something about it but they are allowing it!
What do you think?
Blessings.
Revelation 2:19 - I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
I know your works, and love. That's AGAPE, and your service, DIAKANOS, which is where we get our word Deacon from. And your faith, and your patience, which is the word endurance. And your works; the last more than the first.
They were a progressive church. They were busy laboring and working more at this point than at the beginning.
Revelation 2:23 - And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
As we read through the book of Revelation, we will find the great harlot who is an emblem of the false religious church, which has a woman as the head who seduces people into her beliefs.
Revelation 2:24 - But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
But I say unto you, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak;
One of the doctrines of Jezebel was "How do you know what sin is unless you experience it?" They put great emphasis on going out and committing sin, so you know what it is. And she says there's no harm in that because God will forgive us.
So as many as have this doctrine, and have not known the depths of Satan, as they say; I will put upon you no other burden.
Revelation 2:17 Continued
It says here, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows saving he that receives it.
Now, I thought this would be something good to share. There was a movement several years ago where people would go around to the churches and say, "You know that God has a new name for you, and I have the special ministry to know what your new name is!"
And so, people would line up in these churches and some guy would stand up front and each person that came up, he would put his hand on them and tell them what their new name was. He would tell them that throughout eternity, this is what your new name is going to be. Can you imagine somebody having a ministry like that?
God says that the new name that He puts on His people is His name. So, if you read a little further, you'll save some money, plus some heartache. You stand before God and you say "Well, they told me that my names going to be Harry." No, it isn't. You're going to have God's name.
Revelation 2:17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, again plural.
The exhortation to this church:
To the one who is overcoming, again, this is a Present Participle. It's not a challenge. It's a description. To the one who is overcoming, will I give to eat of the hidden manna. In John Chapter 6, Jesus presented Himself as the hidden manna. The Jews knew about the literal manna in the wilderness. This is the spiritual manna.
And I will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except the one who is receiving it. Now the white stone in the Old Testament, in the judicial system, was a sign of not guilty, or innocent. In Luke Chapter 1, they used the same system. You remember Elisabeth and Zacharias; the lot fell on Zacharias to burn incense in the temple.
What they did is they took what looked like dark marbles, but one of them was white. And out of the thousands of priests that were in Jerusalem at the time, you would only serve two one-week sessions. And so, all the priests would gather around this bag and draw the marbles out, and the one who drew the white marble got to burn the incense before the altar. And a priest would be fortunate if he got to do it once in his lifetime. And of course, Zacharias, in Luke Chapter 1, he chose that white stone.
Revelation 2:12 - And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Here is just some "gee-whiz" information I would like to share. We saw this back in Verse 16 of Chapter 1, and we'll see it again at His second coming. This is the large Thracian Sword that is used for cutting off the heads of opposing armies as the last event of winning a war. It was a common practice at the end of each war to take the opposing general and have his head cut off by this huge sword. You had to hold it with two hands because it was so big, and it was sharp on both edges.
Revelation 2:13 - I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
He says I know your works, and I know where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is. You see, Pergamos was the great religious seat of the old Babylonian system.
And that you hold firm my name. That was very important back then. When they came through and asked everyone who's Lord, Caesar or Jesus? And as a Christian, if you said Jesus, your life was taken, and if you said Caesar, you were spared. But they said we hold firm to the Lord's name, even in the midst of this headquarters of the old Babylonian system.
And you have not denied my faith. Notice what it says. It's in the Possessive Pronoun. The Lord says it's my faith. That's the Lord speaking. You have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas, and we know nothing about him, other than then fact that he died a martyr's death.
Wherein Antipas, was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.
Revelation 2:11 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches;
And by the way, that is a command. Even Jesus, when He used it in the Parable of the Sower, He says he that has ears to hear, let him hear. That's a command for people who have the heart to hear and want to listen. It's a command for them to hear.
The exhortation for the church:
He that overcometh, and again, that's not a challenge. It's a Present Participle. To the one who is overcoming, shall not be hurt of the second death. Later on, in the book of Revelation, we will learn that there is a death called the second death which is when people are cast into the lake of fire. That is the second death because all non-believers who have died are going to stand before the judgment of God, and they will be sent into the lake of fire.
There's an old saying that says "A believer is born twice but dies once!" I'm born physically, and I'm born spiritually. I will die once, and then I will live with Christ throughout eternity. A non-believer is born once but dies twice. They're born physically; that's it! They die physically, and then they have to stand before the throne of God and experience what the bible calls the second death.
Here, the promise is to the one who is overcoming, shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:10 - Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Literally, here's what it says: Fear none of those things which you are about to suffer. So, he's telling them you're suffering now, but there's some things that you're going to suffer, so don't fear.
Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation (THLIPSIS) ten days: Now the term ten days is a Jewish phrase that's taken from Daniel Chapter 1. Three times, the term ten days is used to represent a fixed period of time.
So, he's telling them that there's a fixed period of time that you're going to have tribulation. You're going to be imprisoned. There will be tribulation. But he says be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life.
He's telling them about the hardships that they're going through. And remember, the entire book of Revelation as we know it, was written to believers who were being persecuted, and they were asking the question "Where's the victory?"
If Jesus defeated Satan at the cross, where's the victory? Why am I sitting in this jail cell? Why am I seeing my brothers and sisters in Christ being put to death?
John was allowed to see this time when the victory of Christ comes. In the meantime, there's an encouragement for believers to hang in there and keep the faith, even if you have to die. Victory is still coming. And as we read through this book, it will be an encouragement!
Revelation 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
He says I know your works, and tribulation. This is not the Great Tribulation. This is THLIPSIS, the Greek word that has to do with stress, the normal thing that God says all of His people will experience. I know your works, I know your affliction, and I know your poverty.
But notice this: (but you are rich) and I know the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. So, the Jews had a synagogue there. But they were not believers. Those are harsh words. They say they're Jews, but they're not. They are not representing God. They've rejected the Messiah.
But they are of the synagogue of Satan. Wow, that's pretty harsh!
Revelation 2:7 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, notice plural, churches;
So not only were they to listen to the message of their particular church, but also to all of the churches.
The exhortation for the church: To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
We read this about the one who overcometh, and I am very happy to share this information with you. This is not a challenge in the Greek text. It sounds like it. It says to him that overcomes, and people see that and say "I've got to overcome and then I'll receive this reward!"
In every instance that it's found, at the end of every message in Chapters 2 and 3, this word overcome is what is called a Present Participle. It describes the person who is already overcoming. It's not a challenge for people to do it.
You can go back to 1 John Chapter 5, the first four verses, and it describes for you, along with Chapter 4 Verse 4, that we have overcome the world, we have overcome the antichrist, because greater is He that lives in us, than he that's in the world. We already have overcome them. It's not a challenge!
So, to the one who is overcoming, I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. It started back in Genesis 2:9, all the way through Genesis Chapter 3. The tree of life is removed from the scene until we get into Revelation Chapter 22, and we will see that as part of the promise, provision, and reward of God's people.
Revelation 2:6 Continued
Jesus Christ is still the head of the church. There are leaders that are to be in position to be of service to Christ, but if anybody in the church should be sensitive, and humbled to God speaking through the people in the church, and the congregation, it ought to be the leaders.
We're all equal. If God wanted me to be a leader, it would not be because I'm more special than anybody else. He might call me to that particular function, but that doesn't mean that once I start functioning in that area, that I know the Lord better than you do.
Many churches have fallen because the leaders took human control over the church, and they themselves were not governed by God's Spirit. The deeds of the Nicolaitans, the lording it over the flock, the human democracy over God's people, God says He hates.
That doesn't mean that there cannot be administration. But Christians today function like Jesus Christ ascended up into heaven and left us here to do His work for Him. No, He's still here. He's still the head of the church. He's our leader. And if you're in leadership, you still look to the leader who is Jesus Christ.
Revelation 2:6 - But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
He says, "Oh, by the way, you've got some other good points about you." You hate the deeds, the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
There are two views as to what the Nicolaitans are. One view is that the Nicolaitans were led by a man named Nicholas. He's mentioned back in Acts 6:5. He's one of the men that were chosen to distribute bread to the Greek speaking Jewish community. Some historical documents say that Nicholas left the church and became a Gnostic, and began spreading false teaching.
There is another view, which appears to be the correct view, since the Nicolaitans were not even that well established at this time as far as Nicholas goes. The word Nicolaitan is made up of two Greek words, and I've shared this a few years ago and this website rejected my post because I used a Greek word that is copyrighted by the name of a sports sneaker with a swoosh symbol. You probably know which shoe I am referring to.
But the first word is pronounced NEE-KAY and the second word is LAOS. NEE-KAY means overcome, and LAOS means the people. It represented the democratic control of the people in the church, where the leaders ruled. They lorded it over the flock. And the Lord says I hate that!
Revelation 2:4 Continued
If we have a person that we love the most, we'll make decisions to honor that person, and cater to that person above the Lord, because after all, the Lord loves us, and it's an age of grace and He understands, you know? People don't, so we don't want people angry at us or upset at us!
But even Jesus, when He was here in the flesh, He said if anybody loves mother or father, or brother or sister, or wife, or lands, or houses above me, you can't be my disciple. That's pretty tough! In one place, He actually used the word hate. That's not the word for hate in the sense of hateful actions. MISEO is a word of comparison. In other words, Jesus said you must love me so much that others think you hate them.
It doesn't mean you go home and kick everybody in the shins and say the Lord told me to hate you to show my love for Him. No, it doesn't mean that. It means you're so devoted and committed to Christ that everybody else thinks you hate them, which isn't true.
Ephesus is the example of the apostolic church, the apostolic church that held firm to the apostle's doctrine, that had such a fervent love for the Lord, but it began to wane, and it became dull. And it became "church as usual." People dedicated themselves to the church and church work, but privately, Christ was not a priority. This was the apostolic church which ran from A.D. 30 through A.D. 300.