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Read my below comment. It's murder. You tell a story of someone starving themselves to death after rape as a subtle way of justify abortion (which is murder). There are people who've accidentally killed someone driving and starved themselves out of the depression and guilt. My wife is obviously a woman and she's got a stronger word against this than my own. But it's not about us. We react on emotion and sympathy and that's not how justice is determined in the Word of God.
I'll quote this again but Proverbs 6:16 & 17
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, "
Our finite 'complaints' to justify abortion are bigger than God? God HATEs abortion. Who do you think the innocent were in Proverbs 6? They are an ABOMINATION unto him.
So, like a stated below a woman is raped, this makes her a victim. Again a terrible thing and now she's a victim. The moment she commits abortion she's no longer a victim but a murderer. That's harsh but that's the reality of what we're trying to justify here. Let that sink in. God is bigger than our emotions, our situations and does not and will not ever support murder.
The question remains; what exactly could be greater works than Christ promised to the Apostles and by default; to His church today? Clearly; when we look at the FRUIT of so called "healing ministries" and other modern "Prophets" we see little resemblance to the early church. Surely; if and when a true miracle does occur God does not advocate media promotion as occurs much of the time today. Since this is focused on prophecy rather than healing; we only need to look at scriptures to debunk those who aren't 100 percent accurate today. It IS true that even with certain scriptures; there is a time factor for things to occur; and the choices of individuals could affect the outcome (such as preparing for famine with Agabus's proclamation; and Paul's decision to go on to what eventually was his death; but appears to have come at a much later date). It is also true that unless the Lord states specifically there can be appeal to the Lord and He can "repent" in some sence from a decreed action. This is most clear with all things that happen now before the 21 judgments of the Tribulation are released (starting with Christ Himself opening the first seal). The restrainer is holding back for now.
The biggest issue is those whose hearts are far from God and simply have vain imaginations; or want to "tickle ears" as many false teachers do. (2 Tim.4:3). When we don't have mega church evangelists risking their lives and being martyred oftentimes for their faith we are not seeing real believers; by and large. Christ said that ALL who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. ( 2 Tim. 3:12; jus a few verses earlier). It may not mean severe physical trials but certainly disqualifies many who depend on funding from their associations with questionable individuals or organizations. Like any TRUE gift; "blazing forth" the message often is unwise; as Christ told many not to do until He was meant to be revealed ( Matt. 9:30).
When we see the prophecy of Agabus in Acts 11; we see evidence of a Word given by an unknown saint to the church as to events soon to come. An individual word of knowledge came to Paul as to what would happen when he went to Jerusalem in Acts 21. These two examples show that most prophecy has unpleasant ramifications whether it if for a nation; individual or group of people. Comparison with today's prosperity gospel type of messages there is little or no scriptural precedence for "declared" blessings of financial success. The irony is that tends to eliminate the TRUE messages of God's promotion of certain individuals for unique ministries and great works for the Kingdom of God. When the successful saint is seen to have promotion; wealth and privileges in this world the verse about what is "highly exalted among men is an abomination to God" ( Luke 16:15).
Try telling Christ who had "no place to lay His head" ( Luke 9:58); or the disciples who said they had given up all things to follow Him ( Luke 18:28); or Christ telling others that it was harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than a camel to go through the eye of a needle ( Matthew 19:23).
Another part of the problem is that people don't trust that God works good through all things for those who love God ( Romans 8:28). This could signify personal trials; or those affecting the nations of the world (war; famine; pestilence); and even the great multitude of the Tribulation are the fruit of the crucible God has placed to test all those who dwell on the earth ( Rev. 3:10).
I believe that any TRULY Born Again individual can do great things; and has time perhaps to do even greater things than Jesus in some sense ( John 14:12-14). This could only refer to the same Holy Spirit working quantitatively in a lifetime more than Jesus had time to do in 3.5 years of ministry, and primarily sign and wonder miracles were meant for the Apostles.
A spirit being, has no body.
......All this is just Prophetic of Christ and his Deity....And ALL of the World Heaven and Earth worshipping him... Rev. 14 : 7 KJV....Let heaven and earth Praise him....Worship him that made the heavens and the earth and the fountains of waters.
When our body of flesh and blood DIES, do you believe we are instantly in the presence of God with the same glorified body that Christ has.
We don't have to wait for the second resurrection, we are the (first) resurrection INTO Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the LIFE also of JESUS might be made manifest in OUR BODY.
2 Corinthians 4:11 For WE WHICH LIVE (being raised INTO Christ) are always delivered unto DEATH for Jesus' sake, that the LIFE OF JESUS might be made manifest in OUR MORTAL FLESH.
Colossians 1:27 ....this mystery ....CHRIST IN YOU......
Philippians 2:13 For it is God (Christ in you) that worketh (his life, we have no life, we are just CHRIST BODY) in you both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure (Christ is the LIFE in us)
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth IT (the new creation: the LIFE OF CHRIST) a body, and to every SEED HIS (the FATHER'S) own body (Christ is the BODY of the FATHER).
1 Corinthians 15:28 ...And GOD (the Father, the ONLY LIFE THERE IS) will be ALL (LIFE) in ALL (BODIES).
Ephesians 4:4 ONE Spirit (one life) ...ONE Body (man) ....
Ephesians 4:5 ONE God and Father of ALL .....
God BLESS YOU
the enemy anything that is devisive, manipulative, or manifest sin in any way shape or form i.e,. all sicknesses, anything
destructive. You cannot see taste touch hear or smell spirit only the effects. Many times when Jesus Chrsit heale3d when the
spirit causing it was removed the physical problem was gone. Also spirit beings or messengers are either good or evil and have
the ability to manifest themselves when needed I.E. Gabriel with Mary, the men who went to lot sodom and gommorah.
Romans 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
"In the form of God (Gk. 'morphe', shape, appearance), thought it not robbery to be equal to God (Gk. 'harpagmos', to 'tenaciously grasp' onto His equality with God), but made Himself of no reputation, becoming a servant, humbling Himself even to His death on a Cross". If Jesus was a newly created Being for the purposes of mankind's redemption, the apostle would have never described Him in such a manner - in fact Paul would have been a downright deceiver forcing his readers to believe that Jesus came in God's Likeness, in equality with God, & laying all that aside to fulfil God's Plan for Him & the World, when He was simply a newly created Being. If we don't see this, that Jesus humbled Himself to become man & then lived His Life as a man, ate, slept, wept, rejoiced, suffered, etc. as we do, then all the Scriptures as you've shared, just show Him as an ordinary man. But He was more than a man - not just sent from God, but came from the Godhead - from within God's Person - if not, then we might as well overlook the Philippians reference treating it as false (and of course, the others Adam & I have shared).
So you stated, "Jesus never had the things until God gave them to him." Then the question, 'why didn't Jesus have 'the things'? I think that Philippians chapter 2 answers that. Because He laid it all aside (kenosis - emptying Himself), for the purpose of being human & for the suffering & death which He would bear - because God cannot experience that - but God becoming Man could. And this is the wonder of our salvation & everlasting praise to our God.
Hi Robert & thanks for your response. There's a lot to unpack here, but if I could just for now focus on Philippians 2:5-10, which you have referenced.
All the other references about Jesus doing nothing without the Father; the Father is greater; the sender is greater than the sent; etc., are all good, but has its base in what we learn from the Philippians reference you gave. What was Paul saying? "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus". What mind? The mind, or mind-set, he writes about in verses 2 to 4 (to be like-minded, same love, one accord, one mind, nothing bringing strife or vainglory, esteeming one another, & considering one another). This was the mind that Jesus as a Man had, which ought to be in the believers.
And then Paul elaborates to show how Jesus conducted Himself. He could have come as a pompous king, demanding obeisance & obedience from all. Yet, He "made Himself of no reputation" (the Greek word is 'ekenosen', which means 'emptying' oneself). If Jesus was a newly created being, what would he empty himself of? He had nothing to put aside.
A contemporary example of this would be from a TV show series of old, where an owner/director of a thriving company desires to lower himself from his prestige & wealth, put on ragged clothes, live & sleep under a bridge, so that he can better understand what the struggles of the homeless & destitute are. He didn't have to do it this way, but he wanted to experience it in real-time & at the end of it render some real help or work to these unfortunate ones. That's a small & weak picture of Jesus emptying Himself for our sakes.
And on this thread I just posted 26 other verses supporting that Jesus is God, the Son, and that God is truine. How many verses have you found supporting the opposite?
To give this even consideration, please share at least 26 or more verses supporting your view and then we can pray over this and read them together. Surely if we pray to God to know the truth and open our hearts to receive His wisdom and truth we can come to arrive at the truth, do you agree?
Link
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Who is the Word?
John 1:14-15 says the Word is Jesus. Does anyone deny that the Word is Jesus?
If someone believes John 1:14, then do they believe John 1:1
"...the Word was God."
"...[Jesus] was God."
JESUS.
WAS.
GOD.
John 1:1
This is God's Word.
Some here are saying "Jesus was NOT God" despite John 1:1 clearly saying Jesus WAS God. I'd like to know exactly how someone can believe in all other verses of the Bible except this one? If something WAS something, that seems to offer little room for interpretation. It means it's the same, does it not? So, if something WAS something, how does someone twist this into believing it says something WAS NOT something?
It then must be asked: since it takes so much effort to take a sentence something WAS something to turn it into: something WAS NOT something, what is the true underlying motive here? Does God's Word carry the most weight and influence or does something else?
This is eerily similar to Gen 3:4 where satan denied what God said and claimed that they shall NOT surely die. Satan loves opposites and this seems to have his signature, does it not?
I welcome any perspective I'm missing, but do not consider anything other Bible verses as valid evidence. God's Word is all that matters and because there's already numerous verses supporting that Jesus is God like John 1:1 then that is what is true. Lastly, why not just pray and ask God directly to know the truth? Genuinely ask!
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7
(plural "us")
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
Not in any scriptures I have read .
John 1:1 clearly says Jesus is God and the mountain of other verses I posted all support that. For example, God being called 'we' and 'us' plural. How else do you explain that?
Jesus was worshipped and called God directly by His disciples and He allowed it and never denied it.
Not sure if you've truly read all the verses I posted above, but how do you account for that mountain of overwhelming evidence supporting Jesus's divinity and believe He isn't?
And finally, have you prayed to God the Father directly and asked Him for what the truth is? Have you deeply and prayerfully read the scriptures and prayed for wisdom and understanding so that the truth will be revealed?
Notice verse 2 ( for the life was manifested, and we have seen it , and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life , which was WITH the FATHER.... notice it does not say IS the FATHER. That would mean Jesus is the Father . No the Father was with him , just as Jesus has been saying all along .
This is an interesting logical argument. I find that in 1 Peter 3:22. Let's assume for argument's sake that your conclusion is correct and you get 1 point for this.
But for every verse you cite, there are even more that say that Jesus IS God, like John 1:1 saying the "Word was God" and verse 14 that Jesus is the Word.
This could continue to play out and you can cite any number of verses to support your position, but again we don't run out of very compelling verses saying that Jesus is God.
Let's say that it's a dead even race. 30 verses suggesting Jesus isn't vs 30 verses suggesting He is.
Then what? Which do you choose to believe?
I don't know if you've gone through this exercise or not, but I now have a spoiler: someone will run out of verses supporting that Jesus "isn't" God long before the verses supporting He IS God. Not only that, but each of the verses commonly cited to claim that Jesus "isn't" God require some extra creative interpretation and human logic whereas the verses supporting the other side can be read and interpreted more literally. Not only that, but there's logical explanations for why Jesus called His Father God. The main reason is that He temporarily became a human being and limited His power. Phil 2:6-7. So, yes, as a man, He prayed to His Father and called Him God. So, all verses must be considered as a whole, not cherry picked in order to have understanding about the Godhead and I admit it is hard to comprehend as we don't have anything like it in on earth. But perhaps like an orange with seeds, pulp, skin. Someone calls pulp an orange, and it is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
, Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us")
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
The Bible also says Jesus created everything and was there in the beginning. He is not a created being which some assume "begotton" means. I've never heard all these creative twists on scripture until just a couple years ago and still amazes me how crafty satan is to deceive so many Christians in such a clever way as to get them to deny the divinity of Jesus. It's like a pastor fell away and wrote books or went campaining against Jesus or something. There is a mountain of verses affirming Jesus's divinity, and only few verses requiring twisting in order to arrive at the other conclusion. People trusting flawed human logic over God's Word. Itching ears want to hear certain things sometimes. God bless.
Other Scriptures have been given on this thread, but I would emphasize only a few:
John 17:5 - Jesus had God's Glory even before the worlds were created.
Matthew 1:23 - Jesus' Name, Emmanuel, is "God with us".
Colossians 1:15-17 - Jesus is God's Image; Jesus created all things; Jesus was before all things & He holds all things together.
John 10:30 - Jesus' claimed equality with God, for this very reason the Jews wanted to stone Him.
Just a few very compelling verses to show beyond doubt that this Jesus was not a mere created being for the world's salvation. He was the Essence of God (the Word of God made flesh) Who was declared as God coming in the flesh ( John 1:1-14).
We would have to discount Jesus' former Glory in Heaven, His Name as, "God now with mankind", His creative & sustaining Work, and His Own claim of equality with the Father, to believe that Jesus was anything less than wholly Divine in Heaven & on Earth.
It may be difficult for our fickle human minds to comprehend such concepts & Truths, but our weaknesses should not prohibit us from believing God's Word & the necessity for God Himself to pay to secure our salvation (this is His love demonstrated) - no other sacrifice would do - not even a special created human being or a specially prepared animal. If the people of His day understood it & the apostles & early Church believed it, then where & how did we go wrong by rejecting His Deity?
Please pray for me. I got stung by a nasty black wasp today and my leg is so sore. It still hurts like I just got stung. It is swelling and getting pretty red and irritated. Please pray that my body fights off the effects of the venom from this wasp and my leg heals quickly.
Thank you
Dear Heavenly Father, Take Mishael's sister and help her in this illness that is causing her organs to fail. Cause her to ask Mishael about salvation. Give Mishael the best words to share with her. Guide him through this situation with his sister. Also, please intervene and help both this sister and sister in law be delivered from abusing opioids. Take away the addiction and begin to heal their bodies and redeem them. They are in desperate need and only You can fulfill their greatest needs and every other need in between what they need the most in You and their smallest needs. Father, there is no one like You, no one. And thankfully, You are so good and great in power to deliver and save anyone! We entrust these two women into Your loving will int he name of Your Son, Jesus, Amen.