Discuss Luke 16 Page 6

What happens to unbelievers when they die? They immediately go to a place called Hades. Luke 16:23-24. "for I am in agony in this flame.'" Hades is the temporary waiting place of the unsaved dead. It is a place of torment that begins the moment an unbeliever dies. Their final destination is the Lake of Fire. In Revelation 20:12-15, John said, "I saw the dead standing before the throne, and BOOKS were opened; and another book was opened, book of LIFE; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their DEEDS. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and judged according to their deeds.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND death. And if anyone's name was NOT found written in the book of LIFE , he was thrown into the lake of fire; a place of forever suffering.

The common experience in both the temporary location, Hades, and the Final Destination for the unsaved, the Lake of Fire, is physical pain. Right now, those who die without Christ are in Hades awaiting their FINAL JUDGMENT: the Great White Throne Judgment. And at that judgment Hades will be emptied and all the UNSAVED who have ever lived will stand before God. And because their names ARE NOT written in the Lamb's Book of Life, they will be judged by their DEEDS. That is a choice they made in this life. On that day, every unbeliever will see that his works do not meet the standard of perfect righteousness that God requires and understand why he has been sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

Here is the basic truth everyone needs to understand: when we die we immediately begin experiencing God's blessing or God's judgment. While it is true that at some future day believers will change location from the third Heaven to the New Heaven, and unbelievers will also change location from Hades into the Lake of Fire, a change of LOCATION is not the same as a change of eternal DESTINY.

Choose now, before it's TOO LATE. Mishael

Hey Rick,

Death is something we all will face; many believe our body dies and our soul lives on. Is our soul immortal? Can we take 2 Corinthians 5:8 when we die our soul leaves our body and we are present with the Lord? Some define death as a separation of the soul from the body. Does that come from scripture? I have not found that in scripture.

It comes from Greek philosophy of Plato. He wrote the body is a prison for the soul and viewed death as the means of freedom for the soul. The philosophy of death started blending in the church in the second century and those good souls go to heaven and the bad goes to hell and more. Many see the parable in Luke 16:19-31 as fitting this. If you read the chapter Jesus is talking about the unrighteous love mammon and neglect the true riches.

My understanding from scripture every part of us is mortal and when we die, we sleep in the dust, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 until resurrection. When this mortal puts on immortality 1 Corinthians 15:52-58, and we will be absent from this flesh body. Then those that are Christs will be judged and receive our rewards. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12 that is our hope, 1 Thessalonians 2:19

We will sleep in the dust, Daniel 12:2, 1Theselonians 4:14 and this is not from heaven, it is from around the world to meet Jesus in the air coming down to Israel the start the 1000 years at His coming. Matthew 24:31 Zechariah 14:4.

This is my understanding of scripture.

God bless,

RLW

Please read Genesis 5:1-2, Genesis 1:26-30, here it states plural. It also reasonably suggests multiple to subdue the entire earth. Genesis 1:26, Genesis 1:28,

Genesis 2:15, was this a separated man? If GOD had already told mankind to subdue the entire earth? Would HE really take him then to dress & tend a special garden HE had made? Or is this symbolic of the Church._. Ezekiel 28:12-15, Ezekiel 31:8-9, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 61:11, Joel 2:3? Many times Jesus refers to the "vine dresser", the "stewards", seeds, etc. Luke 13:17, Luke 13:18-21, * John 15:1,5, & many times it's about unfaithfulness of that stewardship many times relating to the "Church" & those in charge. Luke 16:2, Ironic Jesus also being crucified by Garden, John 19:41, & where Jesus was betrayed, bound, taken captive, John 18:26,27, John 18:1-12,

Genesis 4:1-16, note Genesis 4:14,

Then you have an unreasonable fear of being killed by vengeance which was completely irrational if there was only Adam & Eve. There in that family -2 mourning the murdered child & 1 on the run. Then you have the outrageous idea that those same two parents would give a daughter to the murderer who already disregarded his brother's life to kill him. Gross, perverted imagination!! Genesis 4:16-17 then he built a city. Genesis 19:4-25, why isn't man killed mentioned? Then Seth's birth.

The importance of the lineage of Adam & Eve was it led to the Messiah Jesus CHRIST. Luke 3:22-38. Therefore when Eve is called the mother of all living CHRIST even addressed this as "let the dead bury the dead" pointing to spiritual death. Note it doesn't say Eve was of "life" it said mother of living._Genesis 3:20..Note also the day they would surely "die"! Genesis 2:17. Genesis 3:6-8, fear of (death?) eternal judgement? What happened? If it wasn't a spiritual death? Genesis 3:10, loss of fellowship, trust, intimacy even in marriage that's sometimes referred to "death, of the marriage"

Genesis 6:1-6, Gen 6:6, "earth" not "garden"

Here are several scriptures I found about death & after death : James 2:26, Ecclesiasticus 38:23, Ecclesiasticus 22:11, 2 Maccabees 7:36, 2 Maccabees 12:44, Ecclesiasticus 10:11, Ecclesiasticus 17:28, Baruch, 2:17, Psalms 88:10, Psalms 115:11, Ecclesiastes 9:5,

after death,: Matthew 17:1-3, Luke 7:12-16, Luke 8:49-56, John 11:21-45, Matthew 27:50-54, Luke 16:22-31, John 21:14, Acts 3:15, Acts 4:10, Mark 12:25,26,27, Luke 24:46, John 5:12, John 5:25, 1 Peter 1:3, 1 Peter 2:24, 1 Peter 4:5, Revelation 1:5, Revelation 1:18, Revelation 14:9-20, 1 Corinthians 15:20,21, 2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 14:9, Matthew 22:32, Isaiah 26:19,

Hebrews 11:35, Revelation 20, 2 Esdras 2:16, Hebrews 6:2, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 11:4, Hebrews 13:20, Revelation 11:18,

Hopefully these are helpful.

Hi Rod; When speaking about the law being destroyed, I am talking about the Old Testament, which is also called the Mosaic Law. It was this law that was destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary according to the wisdom of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15 Knowing as Christians if we obey one of those laws we are cursed to obey them all. Galatians 3:10 which is a quotation from Deut. 27:26 Now in your argument you thought I was speaking about the Ten Commandments in stone according to Matthew 5:17-18 This is referred unto in scripture as the old covenant, as in Deut. 5:2-3 and Hebrews 9:4 These are two different laws, the one O.T. is the law of Moses, while the other one, old covenant, is the Law of the Lord, or Law of God, or moral law. These are not the same, although they share the same name as the word law, but have two distinct different meanings. While the Old testament was created by angels, as in Acts 7:53 and Galatians 3:19 knowing the word disposition and ordained share a similar meaning, to set in order or create, yet the Ten Commandments in stone, was written by the finger of God. Now this law had an expiry date, Christ did not come to destroy this law, but to fulfil this law, but once it was fulfilled it was then dead, as In Matthew 5:18 - Luke 16:16 - Romans 7:6-7 If you read carefully those scriptures I have mentioned, and need be, pray over them, you should come to the understanding of the Apostle Paul on this matter as he fought against obeying these two things in many of his epistles, as he was against Christians obeying the Old Testament and the old covenant. Because you mentioned the least commandments in Matthew 5:19 I would like to say, these twelve hundred commandments found in the gospels and epistles, are all to be considered the least commandments, while only the two greatest commandments on how to love God, and how to love your neighbor need interpretation by these least commandments of how this is done

Hi Chris; Whenever I refer unto the Old Testament I also call it the law of Moses, because he was the mediator between God and Israel, however; the old covenant simple means the Ten Commandments in stone as in Deuteronomy 5:2-3 & Hebrews 9:4 - Jer. 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-7 Genesis holds three covenants created before the Old Testament, Adam, Noah and Abraham all received a covenant, which was not the Old Testament. Then the angels created the Old Testament, Acts 7:53 & Galatians 3:19 During that dispensation, about 1,600 years or so, God gave the old covenant (Ten Commandments in stone) and the Davidical covenant, howbeit, neither of these were the Old Testament. It is generally speculated that the Old Testament has 613 laws, actually all of which should be in the book of Leviticus, meaning the O.T. specifically is only Leviticus, all other books before the New Testament are not the Old Testament, they are written during that dispensation, although some of them, like Exodus, numbers and Deuteronomy have some of the O.T. written within it. Therefore; you cannot put the four gospels in the Old Testament, as they do not contain any Old Testament laws, neither do they contain obedience to the old covenant, meaning the Ten Commandments in stone. The old covenant was magnified by the Lord Jesus Christ Isaiah 42:21 making it spiritual, harder to obey, and was written in the heart of all Christians Jer. 31:31-34 - Hebrews 8:6-13 & James 1:21 This n.c. sets us free from the o.c. as in Romans 8 for the law of life in Christ Jesus, has made me free from the law of sin and death. It should be noted that the Old Testament was destroyed by the death of Christ on Calvary as in Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15 Knowing if we obey one commandment from that law we are cursed according to Gal. 3:10 and Deut. 27:26 Yet the old covenant was magnified, not destroyed, but fulfilled as in Matthew 5:17-18 although it had an expiry date, as in Luke 16:16 I hope this is clear.

I will comment on versus 17-19

The Lord Jesus said he did not come to destroy the Law of God, meaning the Ten Commandments in stone, rather he taught he came to fulfill that law, knowing it would expire as soon as he fulfilled it. :18 Apparently by the time that John the Baptist started his ministry, the Lord Jesus Christ had fulfilled the law, therefore it was now expired. Luke 16:16 According to the Apostle Paul, Christians have died unto that Law of God, Romans 7:4 knowing all Christians are delivered from the Ten Commandments in stone. Romans 7:6-7 that being dead to us. Then does the Lord Jesus speak of the least commandments in :19 When reading Mark 12:29-31 the Lord Jesus calls the Ten Commandments written the the heart, the greatest commandments, therefore, all other commandments found in the New Testament are the least commandments. I have studied the entire New Testament and discovered about twelve hundred commandments were given in seventeen different categories. All of these commandments are known as the least commandments. For Christians to become great in the kingdom of God today, they must practice the least commandments and teach others the least commandments also, as these two things are required in conditional promises, if someone desires to become great in God's kingdom.

Hi Rick Mentzer;

After reading your comment I see you are confusing the Old Testament with the old covenant, these are not the same thing, the old covenant is the Ten Commandments in stone, the Lord Jesus fulfilled it, then he took it away as it had an expiry date Matthew 5:18, it would only last until he fulfilled it. Christ did fulfill it by the time of John the Baptist, therefore he gave the expiry date again Luke 16:16 But when we speak about the Old Testament it was destroyed on the cross, being nailed to the cross and abolished Ephesians 2:14-16 and Colossians 2:14-15 not the old English word abolished means to destroy.

To keep the covenant and testimony in verse 12;is to remain faithful to the laws of the God of Israel and continue to reap the blessings of being His chosen people who were saved out of Egypt and to be given the Promised Land. Of course; no one can do this apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. Anyone, according to James 2:10 he who has broken one law has broken them all; and scripture also indicates that he who sets aside the least of these commandments will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. ( Matthew 5:19). There are results therefore; to omission of teaching unpopular things; as well as commission of things forbidden. In either case; we cannot ignore what Christ taught for if we love Him; we will obey Him. ( 1 John 2:3).

When we know the lawgiver; grace sets us free. We have an indication of the literal and spiritual descendants ruling and reigning in Zion; whether on earth during the Millennium; or when the heavenly city comes to earth afterwards and all are in eternal bodies. The Old Testament saints such as David will rule and reign; and certainly the Apostles as well; as this group likely constitutes the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10. The Lord will surely restore the earth in fullness when He returns as v. 15 states. He who is trusted in earthly things can be assured authority over heavenly ( Luke 16:11); this and many other similar admonitions encourage us to trust that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him ( Hebrews 11:6).

Some believe that while Jesus' body was in the tomb, His spirit was in hell.Scripture doesn't support that position when it is taken in context and we look at the meaning of the word "hell." In the Old Testament, the place of the dead or the place of departed souls was called "SHEOL." It was to this place that all souls of the dead went to await resurrection.

In the New Testament, we find the story of Lazarus and the rich man who both died and went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31). The KJV translates the Greek word "hades" as hell but most other translations use the Greek word. HADES had two separated parts: Those who died in faith believing in God's promise waited for the resurrection in Abraham's Bosom. Those who died spiritually separated from God wait in torment for the resurrection unto death, eternal separation from God. The rich man was on the torment side and Lazarus was in ABRAHAMS BOSOM which was called "PARADISE" by the Jesus Christ himself when He addressed the thief who found faith the day Jesus was crucified( Luke 23:42-43)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment( 2 Peter 2:4). The word translated "HELL" here is not the Greek word "HADES" but is the Greek word "TARTARUS" meaning ABYSS or the lowest regions. This could very well be the "gulf" that was fixed between the PLACE OF TORMENT and Abraham's Bosom ( Luke 16:26).

Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fulfill all things" ( Ephesians 4:8-10). Leading captivity captive seems to refer to Jesus taking all those that waited in Paradise, to heaven to be with Him. The descending into the "lower parts" then refers to Jesus mission of declaring Victory!

The sons of Korah had a dark history when the earth swallowed those directly involved in the rebellion in Numbers 16 where 250 were swallowed up by the earth and apparently went to hades immediately and while still alive. There could certainly be a recognition of the fate by the author who apparently at the very least was sympathetic to what happened. In regard to the text; where he says he is in the lower parts of the earth (v.6); and the hopelessness personally expressed here as in no other section of scripture it is certainly conceivable that he had a real revelation of hell. Such torments as listed in the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man

(starting in Luke 16:20) illustrate an account of an individual still in hell today from real life who is the nameless rich man. Such is the situation of the lost after death and this chapter should be enough to scare someone straight to repentance realizing there is no hope apart from Christ. Sadly; though when the rich man sought for someone to be raised from the dead he was told by Abraham that they would not listen; and the implication is that even those who see many not believe-as is evidenced by the rebellious Jews in the Book of Acts.

For the heart to respond it must be changed from the stony heart to one of flesh ( Ezekiel 11:19). It must be something which God grants to His elect; no man comes to Christ unless the Father draws Him first ( John 6:44). May He grant that to some today.

In previous Chapters we see Jesus is talking to many different people from different backgrounds, educations & walks in life:

Luke 14, Luke 15:1,2, Luke 16:1,14,

Luke 15:3 =3 parables prior have to do with GOD's goodness, amazing mercy & love for HIS lost children. Luke 15:4-32,

Luke 16, continues as Jesus is talking to the disciples, Luke 16:1, yet you see the others appear to still be there. Luke 16:14,

A steward is someone trusted with things, property, belongings (even teachings) that don't belong to them, they are trusted to maintain, keep, watch-over, protect, grow etc. In this parable Jesus seems to be pointing out the wrongs done.

Luke 16:8, notice Luke 16:9-13, if you go back to Luke 14, they appear to be at one of the Cheif Phariees house throughout these chapters. Luke 14:1, (Pharisee known for being very strict religious of GOD's written laws) therefore being a "steward" of GOD's written laws, including teaching, nextJesus speaks of the rich man, that showed no mercy. Luke 16:19-31, I believe Jesus is rebuking the "rich teachers, stewards" yet also teaching HIS disciples to be wiser to what is going on.

Hopefully this is helpful

Hi Rick; by your response you have led me to believe you think as Christians we should practice the Ten Commandments in stone, this of course would be bondage, as Christians are now commanded to obey the Ten Commandments in the heart according to Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:6-13 This old law of God had an expiry date according to the Lord Jesus who taught it would expire as soon as he fulfilled it. Matthew 5:18 The question should be asked, when did he fulfill it? The answer is then given in Luke 16:16 by the time of John the Baptist, as it would expire at that time. Today the Ten Commandments in stone is dead. Romans 7:4 and 7:6-7 We are now commanded to keep the new covenant which is the Ten Commandments written in the heart where there is no Sabbath or generational curses.

Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Luke 16:16-17 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Colossians 2:13-15 "Blotting out the of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

I love the bible

Dear David,

God knows the situation. He will bring fruit from your witness in this man. I am sure he as been thinking about your last conversation during these covid times. You planted, someone else may water, and God gives the increase.

Lord, I pray for this man that David has cared for as family. May your Word enliven him to eternal life in these his last years here in this life. Cause him to really consider how he wises to spend eternity so that he will come to realize that spending it with You is the best ever offer! We ask that David will once again be able to see this man and spend time with him as often as can be allowed. In your holy name, Jesus. Amen

I have a dear family friend, whom I consider family, who is 91 years of age and who has not called on the Lord for salvation. I witnessed to him a few years back; the Holy Spirit filled his soul to prepare him to accept the salvation of Christ. He was so very close to accepting Christ but said he just could not because he knew his parents and brother are not in heaven.

I'm kicking myself for not thinking of Luke 16:19.

I have not been able to sit and talk with him because of the covid restrictions at his retirement center. Pray that the Holy Spirit will give me another chance to present the plan of salvation again.

Brother Earl. You stated the following: "they don't BELIEVE that ALL MEN are God's CHURCH". I don't believe it either. God's Church, or Christ's Church, comprise only those saved by the Blood of the Lamb. If they include the wicked & unrepentant as well as those entering into salvation & its blessings with unbelief in their hearts, then that brings shame on Christ's Work towards salvation & makes the Cross meaningless. If Christ "draws all men unto Him", then the only ones who are accepted of the Father are those of whom He spoke, "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." ( John 12:47,48). And God's Judgement is certain, final, & eternal - no second chances to those who die without Christ ( Hebrews 9:27; Hebrews 10:27-29).

"Judah was the only one that had five brothers, so this (reference in Luke 16:27,28) was addressed to the house of JUDAH, creation is the PROMISED SEED of the house of JUDAH." If the reference is to Judah's five brothers, then what is Judah doing sitting in hell in torments? Hopefully, the Jews didn't realize that Jesus was talking about Judah in hell & his five brothers about to enter there as well.

"since Christ is the church, and Christ is creation's brother". Not sure how you work out that Christ is creation's brother. Christ is indeed the Church ( Colossians 1:18,24), but He is also the Creator without familial relationship to His Creation ( Colossians 1:15-17). He does love His creation, but the only brothers He has, are those whom He has purchased with His Own Blood ( Acts 20:28).

Hi Earl. Just thought to drop in since you are having a discussion on the matter of twisting Scripture with Rick. Saw your Luke 16:31 reference. This is probably a good example of what Rick was referring to. You quoted, "And he said unto them, If they (his church) hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Christ's CHURCH today does not believe the words of Moses and the prophets."

You will have a hard time convincing anyone that Jesus was speaking about "His Church" in that account. You know the story well & that His hearers were the Pharisees primarily (v14). So the proper transliteration of verse 31 would be, 'If the five brothers of the rich man (v28) paid no regard to the Law & the Prophets, neither will (those brothers) be persuaded about the eternal torment of hell, even if one rose from the dead to warn them'. Pardon the extended paraphasing, but wanted to show you how a reader would understand that passage, in which the "Church" cannot be forced into its meaning. I realize that you probably once looked at Scriptures in this way, but for the many 'contradictions' in the accepted exposition, you have turned away & found 'truth' by looking at the Word in this new way. I have tried very hard to learn where you are coming from with your expositions & though I might be wrong, I have found from some other's religious interpretations, that they first come with particular beliefs & doctrines, then everything must match up to it, even if the normal sense of the verse is cast off.

Since you don't believe that the Word of God is correctly preached today, rather teaching the doctrines of men, then you could be justified in changing the reference to the 'brothers' to refer to the 'Church' to support your belief. This might work for you but how do you convince others to break accepted conventions of reading Scripture? One should rather understand what is given & then develop a belief, not the other way around.

Sister GiGI, classic Christians teachings and Scripture based teachings are two different things.

The prophets were sent to declare the WORD given them by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, man rejected those words and killed God's Prophets.

Jesus spoke these words:

Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, If they (his church) hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Christ's CHURCH today does not believe the words of Moses and the prophets.

They do whole heartily believe and teach the doctrines of man.

Brother S Spencer:

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they (the ELECT). They have become Son's of God, to judge the earth.

For WITHOUT are those raised back in the flesh to be judged.

This judgement is happening on earth after the second resurrection (Could take a thousand years or more, this is hinted at in the prophets).

Revelation 5:10 And hath made us unto our God kings and priest to REIGN ON EARTH.

Revelation 2:26 An he that overcometh, and keepeth MY WORKS unto the end, will I GIVE POWER over the nations: (that are raised back to earthy flesh to be judged)

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule (JUDGE) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter they shall be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father ( Psalms 2:8-10).

Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be (lake of) A FIRE, and the the house of Joseph A FLAME ( Luke 16:24), and the house of Esau as STUBBLE, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (Christ and his brothers the SON'S OF GOD) shall come upon mount Zion to JUDGE the house of Esau, and the Kingdom (ON EARTH) shall be the LORD'S.

Jeremiah 51:19-23

Only the elect will have a glorified body at this time, all other will still have earthly bodies.

Brother Chris, the wages of sin is death and the grave. Our sin, most of which, is unbelief, causes death, and when we are dead we cannot bring glory to our creator. Christ died and was resurrected to restore this condition. Christ overcomes sin in our lives, therefore at some point in time, death will be destroyed. Those called out in this age are coming to this knowledge. Those not called out in this age will be resurrected back to their flesh and brought to truth.

Luke 16:26 The gulf that can't be passed over is death and the grave, locked in prison.

Matthew 5:25-26 In this scripture our (flesh) is the adversary to God (Spirit) if we don't agree with Him, he delivers us to the judge (Christ, the words and chastisement), if we still don't agree, he delivers us to the officer (death) and cast us into prison (grave).

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan (flesh) shall be loosed out of prison (death and the grave), the gulf that couldn't be crossed.

Christ has the keys to death and the grave. His resurrection unlocked and destroyed death and the grave, we are restored to Sons of God. ( Job 38:7)( Revelation 22:16)

Job 17:13-16

Chris, for fifty plus years, I was taught and BELIEVED in a Literal place called heaven and a Literal place called hell.

God stopped me dead in my tracks and isolated me for five plus years with his word and his Spirit, and taught me what the Kingdom of God actually is. It not a place, it's a person, Sons of God, like Christ himself.

All of creation are brothers and sisters, of an in CHRIST, and at God's appointed time, each and everyone with be delivered, By CHRIST, into the Kingdom of God.

Brother Earl. As you've noticed, I don't often respond to your comments & to some others here, as our interpretation of Scriptures are noticeably divergent & I see no proper foundation on which to build a succinct discussion. And from this present thread, I note your reference to Sheol as pertaining to the grave, to which there is finality of human life. And true, if Sheol even carries the meaning of a Hell, there is little reference in the OT to any major suffering therein, though seems to indicate a place further than six feet below ground ( Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalm 86:13; Ezekiel 31:14-16).

But I would ask, as you clearly believe in the Gospel of our Lord, what do you believe that the death of Christ accomplished? And this question pertains to what God requires & also to the benefit of mankind.

Why I ask this supposedly simplistic question is because this matter came up some years ago when a couple of folk calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, spoke to me about the wonderful Paradise & freedom of suffering that awaits all men - & wouldn't I want to be a part of it? This matter soon progressed to a person's death & subsequent resurrection to enjoy this bounty from God. And this further progressed to the reality of Hell, to which they clearly don't subscribe to. And ultimately they stated that all the righteous ones (presumably those who followed Jehovah's Laws) would live in this paradise, whilst those who refused Him, would remain in the grave. I took them to task on this belief & they finally left without answer.

Without sharing the full matter here, I wonder if you see anything credible in that discussion, but especially, what did Christ's death accomplish, towards God & to man? And btw, Luke 16:26 was the Lord's Words, not man's.

Brother Adam, in the Old Testament the Hebrew word sheol is translated 31 times as hell, and 31 times as grave.

The two translations, hell and grave, don't come close to the same meaning. Why didn't the translators, translate the word sheol as grave every time or hell every time.

It's easy to see sheol means grave from other teachings in the Old Testament and New, death was punishment, and sheol, the grave (the place the body goes after death).

Do yo believe Jesus went to hell when he died, or did he lay in the grave waiting for the Father to resurrect him.

Man teaches if you go to hell ( Luke 16:26) there a gulf that keeps you from coming out, either way you try to make this fit into mans teaching, it contradicts itself. If Jesus went to hell, according to man he would still be there. If he lay in the grave, then sheol translated as hell is mistranslated, and should have been translated grave. This would also mean the rich man lay in the grave instead of going to hell.

Psalms 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in hell (Heb. sheol), neither will you suffer you Holy One to see corruption.

Maybe the translators were pushing their own beliefs. Grievous wolves shall come in and destroy the flock.

Maybe this was revealed to John when he wrote Revelation and said what would happen if you added or took away from God's word.

Brother Ronald:

This is just an observation of the people around the town I live in, and not an indictment of them are anyone on this forum.

Most people don't read God's word, much less study it.

Most have no knowledge of the Kingdom of God, as taught by scripture. They have been taught, believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't believe, then you go to hell, it's all up yo you.

They are taught out of the New Testament, with most, seldom ever studying, in depth, the Law and Prophets.

When Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is at hand, there was no written New Testament, he taught out of the Law and Prophets.

Jesus speaking one of his parables said:

Luke 16:31 .....If they hear not Mosses (law) and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed Paul a day, there came many unto him into his lodging; to whom, Paul expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses and out of the prophets, from morning to evening.

Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL. One would assume that if there were such a place of torture for sin, the prophets would have never cease warning people. Yet not one word concerning a place called Hell. Likewise not one mention of a place of eternal bliss, called heaven.

The Kingdom of God is ON EARTH (CHRIST IN YOU), Christ has been calling man into his Kingdom for two thousand years. Those that are NOT CAUSED to hear his call in this AGE, will be resurrected back to their flesh, and Christ and those that WERE CAUSED to hear his call, will judge the earth, and bring the remaining sheep into the fold. This is very evident in the Law and Prophets.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, man uses this parable to teach the doctrine of heaven and hell, Yet JESUS SAID, if they want believe the Law and Prophets, which DOES NOT teach heaven and hell.

There seems to be several times that occurs throughout the Bible, Is it to show us to view each person individually? Several were opposites, yet similar; is that to inspire us to be our best? Luke 7:19-28,

Interestingly Saul, Saul/Paul, 1 Samuel 15, Acts 13:9, Saul continued to do wickedly, Saul/Paul repentantly changed Acts 8,

Tamar, Tamar, 2 Samuel 13, 2 Samuel 13:19-20, Genesis 38, 1 Chronicles 2:4, Ruth 4:12,

Manasseh, Manasseh: Joshua 17:1-18, Genesis 48:14,20, 2 Chronicle 30:11, Psalms 108:8, Jeremiah 15:4, 2 Chronicles 33:1, Isaiah 9:28, 2 Chronicles 33:10,22,

Lazarus, Lazarus, John 11, John 12:10, John 12:1-3, Luke 16:20, was one rich one poor?

Etc.

I've had it explained to me that it was finished when Noah finished it, "that GOD couldn't move until Noah finished it" that "GOD's timing isn't man's timing. He waits sometimes for completion of events not like world thinks". That significance is amazing to consider. Genesis 6:22,

Daniel 7:22, Galatians 4:22, Ecclesiastes 3:1-17, Daniel 7:25, Exodus 9:16-19, Hebrews 9:8-10, Psalms 105:17-19, Micah 5:2-4, seems to be significant even in future Luke 16:16,

Hope that's helpful

Some believe that while Jesus' body was in the tomb, His spirit was in hell.Scripture doesn't support that position when it is taken in context and we look at the meaning of the word "hell." In the Old Testament, the place of the dead or the place of departed souls was called "SHEOL." It was to this place that all souls of the dead went to await resurrection.

In the New Testament, we find the story of Lazarus and the rich man who both died and went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31). The KJV translates the Greek word "hades" as hell but most other translations use the Greek word. HADES had two separated parts: Those who died in faith believing in God's promise waited for the resurrection in Abraham's Bosom. Those who died spiritually separated from God wait in torment for the resurrection unto death, eternal separation from God. The rich man was on the torment side and Lazarus was in ABRAHAMS BOSOM which was called "PARADISE" by the LORD Jesus Christ himself when He addressed the thief who found faith the day Jesus was crucified ( Luke 23:42-43)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" ( 2 Peter 2:4). The word translated "HELL" is not the Greek word "HADES" but is the Greek word "TARTARUS" meaning ABYSS or the lowest regions. This could very well be the "gulf" that was fixed between the PLACE OF TORMENT and Abraham's Bosom ( Luke 16:26).

Wherefore He saith, When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fulfill all things" ( Ephesians 4:8-10). Leading captivity captive seems to refer to Jesus taking all those that waited in Paradise to heaven to be with Him. The descending into the "lower parts" then refers to Jesus mission of declaring Victory

Abraham's bosom? Jesus refers to himself in the bosom of the Father? Lazarus is resurrected into the bosom of Abraham. why not Moses or Noah? Is it that these two are their with Abraham already? Perhaps it was because Abraham seed would become the promise of the Son, Jesus ? That even though Lazarus died before the life of Christ, it would be the same seed needed to enter into the life? The seed being the same, hope of Eternal life in and through the promise of the seed, the same seed we now call faith in the risen Christ! This is as the transfiguration into heaven, Lazarus carried into heaven by the Angels! Brought into the tree of life? This picture of the rich man in essence now begging, there is no indication that Lazarus is their experiencing the rich man's place in torment, this is Hell, the separation from life!

I am rich. I have a home, my health, not begging. Even so ,this parable should stop you, make you think what is important in this life! Is your stuff more important? Are you thinking that because you are not rich that this could not happen to you or me? Eternal separation, how awful this should ever be! That we too ,should cling even more unto Christ, asking for forgiveness in every moment of every day! God forgive me . For Jesus sake!

Matthew 25:31-46