Discuss John 21 Page 5

Brother Chris, the three verse you referenced:

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in my anger and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Heb. sheol) .....

Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and you have delivered my soul from the lowest hell (Heb. sheol).

Ezekiel 31:15 Then said the Lord God, In the day when he went down to the grave (Heb. sheol) I caused a mourning, I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.

Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nation shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell (Heb. sheol) with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell (Heb. sheol) with him unto to them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

These verse in Ezekiel is talking about Pharaoh and his army, Verse 15 says he went to the grave (sheol), but verses 16 and 17 says he went down to hell (sheol).

The same word can not we translated as two meaning, when it's describing the same event.

If you believe that is true you are listening to the Antichrist spirit not the spirit of God.

Brother Chris, the wages of sin is death and the grave. Our sin, most of which, is unbelief, causes death, and when we are dead we cannot bring glory to our creator. Christ died and was resurrected to restore this condition. Christ overcomes sin in our lives, therefore at some point in time, death will be destroyed. Those called out in this age are coming to this knowledge. Those not called out in this age will be resurrected back to their flesh and brought to truth.

Luke 16:26 The gulf that can't be passed over is death and the grave, locked in prison.

Matthew 5:25-26 In this scripture our (flesh) is the adversary to God (Spirit) if we don't agree with Him, he delivers us to the judge (Christ, the words and chastisement), if we still don't agree, he delivers us to the officer (death) and cast us into prison (grave).

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan (flesh) shall be loosed out of prison (death and the grave), the gulf that couldn't be crossed.

Christ has the keys to death and the grave. His resurrection unlocked and destroyed death and the grave, we are restored to Sons of God. ( Job 38:7)( Revelation 22:16)

Job 17:13-16

Chris, for fifty plus years, I was taught and BELIEVED in a Literal place called heaven and a Literal place called hell.

God stopped me dead in my tracks and isolated me for five plus years with his word and his Spirit, and taught me what the Kingdom of God actually is. It not a place, it's a person, Sons of God, like Christ himself.

All of creation are brothers and sisters, of an in CHRIST, and at God's appointed time, each and everyone with be delivered, By CHRIST, into the Kingdom of God.

I'm sure you mean well but what you're proclaiming is based on a false assumption and is untrue. God bless.

Brother Earl. As you've noticed, I don't often respond to your comments & to some others here, as our interpretation of Scriptures are noticeably divergent & I see no proper foundation on which to build a succinct discussion. And from this present thread, I note your reference to Sheol as pertaining to the grave, to which there is finality of human life. And true, if Sheol even carries the meaning of a Hell, there is little reference in the OT to any major suffering therein, though seems to indicate a place further than six feet below ground ( Deuteronomy 32:22; Psalm 86:13; Ezekiel 31:14-16).

But I would ask, as you clearly believe in the Gospel of our Lord, what do you believe that the death of Christ accomplished? And this question pertains to what God requires & also to the benefit of mankind.

Why I ask this supposedly simplistic question is because this matter came up some years ago when a couple of folk calling themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, spoke to me about the wonderful Paradise & freedom of suffering that awaits all men - & wouldn't I want to be a part of it? This matter soon progressed to a person's death & subsequent resurrection to enjoy this bounty from God. And this further progressed to the reality of Hell, to which they clearly don't subscribe to. And ultimately they stated that all the righteous ones (presumably those who followed Jehovah's Laws) would live in this paradise, whilst those who refused Him, would remain in the grave. I took them to task on this belief & they finally left without answer.

Without sharing the full matter here, I wonder if you see anything credible in that discussion, but especially, what did Christ's death accomplish, towards God & to man? And btw, Luke 16:26 was the Lord's Words, not man's.

Brother Adam, you are right there are no CONTRADICTIONS in God's Word.

You believe God's word teaches HELL, yet:

Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Have any of God's prophecies not COME TO PASS.

The doctrine of HELL contradicts this prophecy. If the word Hell was misapplied in translation and the word GRAVE applied correctly, then you no longer have a contradiction.

Brother Adam, here is two more scriptures that have the Hebrew word, sheol.

Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the GRAVE (Heb. sheol): for he shall receive me. Selah.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the GRAVE (Heb. sheol)...

I wonder why the translators didn't translated the Hebrew word, sheol, into the word HELL, in the above scriptures. Probably it would have destroyed their HELL doctrine.

Hello, there is no contradiction in the Bible. The Bible is already translated accurately. Maybe if you learned more about the translation process that could answer some of your concerns. A word having more than one use or application is normal, and doesn't automatically mean its mistranslated. There is one love in English and 4 in Greek- does that mean it's automatically wrong? I think some false assumptions are being made based about this misunderstanding and I don't believe it is true. Genuine open questions about God's Word is good, but is it profitable to publically try to discredit the Bible?

Brother Adam, two more examples of opposite translations for the same Hebrew word, sheol.

Psalms 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon Thee; let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the GRAVE (Heb. sheol).

Psalms 55:15 Let DEATH seize upon them, and let them go down quick into HELL (Heb. sheol), for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Two scriptures about the destination of the wicked; yet one goes to the GRAVE and the other goes to HELL. Both translated from the same word, sheol.

The WAGES of sin is DEATH, when you die you go to the grave (sheol).

Brother Adam, here is two examples of the Hebrew word sheol being translated two different ways.

Job 17:13 If I wait, the GRAVE (Heb. sheol) is mine house, I have made MY BED in the darkness.

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, You are there: if I make MY BED in HELL (Heb. sheol) behold, You are there.

Same Hebrew word (sheol); YET Job makes his bed in the GRAVE, but King David makes his bed in HELL.

Do you not see a contradiction in the single word, sheol, being TRANSLATED having two different meanings, when they should mean the same thing.

Would you say both should have been translated GRAVE, or do you think both should have been translated HELL.

You will find the same thing in the New Testament, the Greek word, Hades, translated one half of the time GRAVE and one half the time HELL.

No wonder man is deceived.

God bless you.

Hi Adam This is I read biblically concerning heaven carefully starting Genesis 1:6-8 verse 6 and God said let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters and let the dry land appear.

Verse 7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the

waters which were above the firmament and it was so.

Verse 8 And God called the firmament heaven and the evening and morning were the second day.

Verse 9 And God said Let the waters under the firmament be gathered into one place and let the dry land appear. So biblically when we jump in the air we are in heaven[ this is translated shamayim which means things heaved up or lifted up things] when an air plane flies biblically its in heaven. Then you have the heavenlies Ephesians 1:3 where it

states we have been blessed with spiritual blessings in Heavenly places in Christ. Also Ephesians 1:20 Christ is seating in the heavenlies on Gods right hand.

An interesting point is the most high powered telescopes looking into the heavens have found massive balls of water larger than earth floating as far out as they can see which is whet Genesis says. Gods word doesn't miss a beat . Hell , gehenna and sheol is another discussion.

Hello, thank you for your explanation. I'm not sure where you get the source of your information, but it sounds like something you heard or read added doubt in your mind about the validity of the Bible translation. I personally do not believe your interpretation. The Bible is the most scrutinized document in world history and just the KJV took a team of experts years to complete- word for word deep research. It wasn't rushed and it wasn't man's own opinion as you suggested. I trust in God's word and the experts He allowed to translate it, over 1 man's counter opinion. The Bible is already translated accurately and it says 'hell'. There are also many other translations people can use as a basis of comparison and they also say 'hell'. Maybe you're just uncomfortable with that English word, but whatever it's called, the Bible already described it enough to where we still know what it means, such as through these verses: Link

Some find something they don't like in the Bible then try to re-translate a word to get its synonyms, then cherry pick one of those abd claim that it 'really' means this other definition. This could be done with the English language too. For instance, I just used the word 'claim'. If someone didn't like that sentence they could suggest it was talking about mining claims. Most English words have alternate meanings that can be used in different contexts. So, I believe that's what you have done with sheol and hell. See, the Bible already described it: lake of fire, fire and brimstone, everlasting punishment, fire that shall never be quenched.

So, you don't even need the word 'hell' to still know what it means through the other description. Some are uncomfortable with hell and don't want it to be true and try very hard to try to reinterpret the Bible. I hope that's not the case here. God bless.

Brother Adam, in the Old Testament the Hebrew word sheol is translated 31 times as hell, and 31 times as grave.

The two translations, hell and grave, don't come close to the same meaning. Why didn't the translators, translate the word sheol as grave every time or hell every time.

It's easy to see sheol means grave from other teachings in the Old Testament and New, death was punishment, and sheol, the grave (the place the body goes after death).

Do yo believe Jesus went to hell when he died, or did he lay in the grave waiting for the Father to resurrect him.

Man teaches if you go to hell ( Luke 16:26) there a gulf that keeps you from coming out, either way you try to make this fit into mans teaching, it contradicts itself. If Jesus went to hell, according to man he would still be there. If he lay in the grave, then sheol translated as hell is mistranslated, and should have been translated grave. This would also mean the rich man lay in the grave instead of going to hell.

Psalms 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in hell (Heb. sheol), neither will you suffer you Holy One to see corruption.

Maybe the translators were pushing their own beliefs. Grievous wolves shall come in and destroy the flock.

Maybe this was revealed to John when he wrote Revelation and said what would happen if you added or took away from God's word.

Hello Earl,

I just noticed your comment:

"Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL. One would assume that if there were such a place of torture for sin, the prophets would have never cease warning people. Yet not one word concerning a place called Hell. Likewise not one mention of a place of eternal bliss, called heaven."

I'm trying to wrap my mind around your comment, because clearly the Bible does talk about hell. It uses the word 'hell' in both the Old and New Testament as well as other synonyms, such as in Mark 9:48.

This fact can also be verified through a quick search:

Link

The meaning hasn't changed through time either. For instance, man didn't suddenly invent the word 'hell' after a certain point of time.

Since a quick search confirms the Bible has always used the word 'hell', so is it possible you meant something else? Since it does not sound like a true statement, can you please explain what you mean by, "Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL."?

God bless...

I agree with you there Earl , we start out as empty vessels . We are not naturally inclined to goodness , we can see this when people are left without any rules , legal or moral . Many people have lived their lives without ever having had the chance to know the Truth through no fault of their own . I cannot believe that they will spend eternity being tortured for their ignorance .God is love and I do not believe that He sanctions the eternal torture of the ignorant and I don't understand why anyone would believe this . You and others on here have helped me very much and I still have a lot to learn , this site is fab but God is in the Bible and it should be our first and main source of information . Ecclesiastes Ch 3 , V 10-22 . Much love to you in Christ .

Oh yes Earl , I think I spend too much time on this site , I need real food , every day . Some of the things I read on here drive me half crazy , so many smooth words and I am guilty because I don't challenge them . You're a cool dude Earl and you know your subject , you have much more patience than I do ! I'm off to get fed , much love to you in Christ .

God bless you!

Sister Sacha, I believe the DAY, of neither light or dark, began at Pentecost and will continue until Christ has put all things under his feet, then the EVENING will BE LIGHT, and he will turn the Kingdom back to the Father who gave it to him, and GOD (LIGHT) will be ALL IN ALL.

Brother Earl,

I believe the same observation could be of many church-going folks, the building with whatever name that's put on it has become the church, not the people, lost in routines, many are called but few are chosen. It is sad when attendance is put above all. When Jesus first came was for the lost sheep of Israel, and to fulfill the law and the prophets. To confirm and fulfill the first and confirm the New in, the likeness of sinful flesh, what we see in Daniel 9:27 that many put at the end time.

I agree hell is not a place for the condemned and paradise is not a place for the righteous as holding places of the dead. I have not found one verse that say we go to heaven. In Revelation 20:14 we see the last enemy; death and its holding place hell (the grave) are cast into the lake of fire. In scripture when we die the grave is our home of corruption and if the same Spirit dwell in us, we will be raised by the Spirit that raised Christ, in incorruption in our immortal glorified body, death is swallowed up in victory.

When Jesus first came the land was highly influenced by Greco-Roman philosophy. Whether we believe it or not it still has influence on today, the meaning of death, immortal souls, monasticism that Jesus called Nicolaitans, and more.

As we see in Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom and what is bound or loosed in earth will be done so in heaven. The reason of all the parables was the mysteries of the kingdom was not for them to know but for those who were chosen.

I agree in most of your post but if I understand correctly those after resurrection being brought into the fold. I struggle lining that up with the white throne judgment of the rest of the dead. Revelation 20:11-15. These are not all lost people, there will be some not cast into the lake of fire because the book of life is opened and only those not written in it will be cast in to the lake of fire.

Have a great day and God bless,

RLW

Sister Sacha, I believe we start in TOTAL DARKNESS (no knowledge of God) and we end in TOTAL LIGHT (full knowledge of God).

Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, or night: but it shall come to pass, that at EVENING TIME IT SHALL BE LIGHT.

Sister Sacha, I have heard you say, through you written comments, God reveals new truths to you every day.

If this not happening to ALL OF US, then we are not getting enough food and water (that's a parable).

We ought to have this happening, up until the day we depart this world.

Sister Sacha, thank you and God blessings on you.

We as, the called out, don't at this point see everything alike, because we are at different stages of maturity. There is a day COMING when we will all be in PERFECT UNITY.

Thank you so much Earl . You and I don't agree on everything but we have more in common than not if you know what I mean . I despise it when I hear so called preachers in my local town centre , aaaaall they do is insult people and preach that God is going to send them all to hell , even people who have never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel are going to hell to be tortured for eternity by some pointy tailed cloven hoofed monstrosity of their own vicious imagination . It drives me crazy , no one ever stops to listen to them or talk to them except me . They've got my number now though , when I walk towards them to ask them to show me where they are getting their info from they try to run away from me , it's easy for them to do that as I need crutches to walk outside . The first few times I managed to engage them and one of them looked embarrassed because he couldn't back up anything he was saying from scripture , the second was gobsmaked by this middle aged woman who could run rings around him and the third actually put his hand on my face to push me away and called me a devil . Preachers of lies and hate and fear . We only need to fear One and that is God , the Holy One of Israel . Christ is coming , you had better know what you believe in and it had better be the Bible , Old as well as New .

Brother Ronald:

This is just an observation of the people around the town I live in, and not an indictment of them are anyone on this forum.

Most people don't read God's word, much less study it.

Most have no knowledge of the Kingdom of God, as taught by scripture. They have been taught, believe in Jesus and go to heaven, or if you don't believe, then you go to hell, it's all up yo you.

They are taught out of the New Testament, with most, seldom ever studying, in depth, the Law and Prophets.

When Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is at hand, there was no written New Testament, he taught out of the Law and Prophets.

Jesus speaking one of his parables said:

Luke 16:31 .....If they hear not Mosses (law) and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed Paul a day, there came many unto him into his lodging; to whom, Paul expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses and out of the prophets, from morning to evening.

Before the Old Testament was translated into other languages, there is no mention of HELL. One would assume that if there were such a place of torture for sin, the prophets would have never cease warning people. Yet not one word concerning a place called Hell. Likewise not one mention of a place of eternal bliss, called heaven.

The Kingdom of God is ON EARTH (CHRIST IN YOU), Christ has been calling man into his Kingdom for two thousand years. Those that are NOT CAUSED to hear his call in this AGE, will be resurrected back to their flesh, and Christ and those that WERE CAUSED to hear his call, will judge the earth, and bring the remaining sheep into the fold. This is very evident in the Law and Prophets.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, man uses this parable to teach the doctrine of heaven and hell, Yet JESUS SAID, if they want believe the Law and Prophets, which DOES NOT teach heaven and hell.

Hi, I just read today that John, the apostle, was put in a pot of boiling oil but did not get burned. He was then exiled to the Isle of Patmos, where He received the Revelations of Jesus from Jesus and then wrote the book. I did not read about is death. Maybe I need to look further for its account.

Hey brother Earl,

Thanks for your reply, I will meditate on what you shared, and I mean that. I agree, that compassion for those who do not have a clue where their going is bitter, and by sharing the word we can receive some bitter remarks. I cannot place us as John as prophesying to others after the resurrection. I feel we have different understandings of after resurrection but that is ok.

God bless,

RLW

Amen and Amen, Brother Ronald, I would like to tell you what has been revealed to me in studying God's word.

Revelation is signified, so most nouns represent something other than what a dictionary would define them.

I believe, the BOOK, is Christ, The WORD, the BOOK, of life, of truth, of wisdom, etc., etc., all things.

Christ told us that we had to eat his flesh and drink his blood, he is our food and water.

I believe the same applies to the open book (Christ), we eat the book, as we eat his flesh.

It's sweet in our mouth because it has brought TRUTH TO US, it is bitter in our belly because we see our brothers (the world) that has NOT YET been GIVEN this Knowledge.

But we will again prophecy to our brothers after they are resurrected back to their flesh here on earth, the SECOND time.

Isaiah 11:9 .....for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

God Bless You!

Hi Eric,

This one will be a hard nut and it may be empty when you crack it, as in John 21:20-23, Peter was showing he was jealous of John and what Jesus said, maybe Jesus was telling Peter it is not your concern, just follow me and feed His sheep. There was a rumor started that John would not die but Jesus did not say that. Other verses may spur interest relating to John's possible living longer, in Revelation 10:8-11.

The little book that was open that John was told to eat. If the book was open, does that mean it did not contain a mystery or a secret? Did it contain what the seven thunders had uttered, that John was told to seal up and not to write? John was told thou must prophesy again; will that be in the future? Is it written in the rest of Revelation that John had not written down yet?

The Bible does not record the death of John, but there are theories out there you may research those, there is one they boiled him in a pot of oil. I would like to give you more scripture for you to study but this may not have an answer and only come to speculation.

God bless and let the Spirit of truth guide you.

RLW

The end makes it seem that John is among us. He will live this whole time to present day until Jesus coming. I know further readings will show John in an island in the book of Revelations. Does he die then? I'll have to find out.

Powerful wisdom at the end from Jesus to Thomas, "They are those that do not see, yet believe!"