Discuss John 21 Page 4

Chris,

Thank you. We are not to judge God's perfect ways. He judges our ways.

I agree with your prospective. Thank you.

MY view of this biblically God is all love but also a God of Justice and that requires a payment for actions against the laws he set up to work and protect creation and man. When man bucks against Gods laws or justice system God lifts his hand of love grace mercy peace and power and the individual sets himself up to the adversaries destructive influence.

God cannot being just cannot override freedom of will because that would be against his own rules which would make him a hypocrite, let him be true. Now His and our arch enemy the adversary knows all this and uses this to his

advantage to get people to blame God for things he does, remember true God life giving the devil author of destruction and death. The reason why so much stuff is occurring is because the farther man walks away from Gods word of life the more the god of this world gets to work his influence. For those of us who believe and stand on Gods Word In Christ we literally

slow down or at times stop this destructive influence, except to those that absolutely appose God. In the end there will be the resurrection of the body of Christ then in revelation the resurrection of the just and unjust those judged by there works outside of the age of grace. I view it this way if someone wants to worship the adversary again what you sew is what you reap the end in eternity won't be good. This is my perspective, let God be true and the other guy the Father of lies.

English Sacha. Is that what you have gleaned from what I addressed to Earl? You've made some assumptions that clearly are emotive rather than what I had written or is revealed in the Bible. We're discussing the fact of God's Judgement to all who are not saved through Jesus Christ.

How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.

Well stated Ronald.

Hello, Sacha

Those of us who are in heaven will not be enjoy viewing the wicked receiving the penalty for their unbelief in hell. We will not be allowed to view it. God separates hell from heaven in order to have heaven be perfect for us. God is perfectly just and is not unloving when he judges unbelievers to eternal punishment in hell. He is exercising His perfect judgment and wrath rightly. It is this very judgment and wrath that Christ's death and resurrection saves us from, not just death. If death is all that awaits the unbeliever, then Christ's death does not change was only a one way act, sparing believers from eternal death. Which is not what Jesus taught (i.e. Lazarus and the rich man).

I believe that God will judge children, mentally impaired, and those who never heard the gospel in is perfect wisdom. I don't think we need to think for God.

I once heard a story about someone who was brought the gospel to a remote area of the world. Upon hearing of Jesus, one person remarked, "So that is the name of who we worship." This reflects what is said in Romans 1. Man can know that God exists and seek Him. But in places where they have not heard of Jesus or have the Bible to learn more of God, most people create idols and devise wicked practices and false worship. But even among such people, there may be some who worship God from a true heart. God does not despise these. Nor does he despise children or those who cannot understand Him through their minds. He speaks to their souls. The Holy Spirit can regenerate anyone He chooses. But since Jesus' incarnation, the Spirit most often regenerates through the hearing of the gospel.

I choose to let God be God, and myself be a lowly human. I do not question His judgments as either right or wrong.

If he created hell and determined that it will be inhabited by the unbelieving humans, angels, and the devil, I trust that that is the right and just thing.

Brother Earl We preach the Goodness of God and the Forgiveness of sin, we lovingly teach and implore not to sin or break fellowship, how can you teach heaven when your too occupied with thinking about hell. Just making a point,

pointing finger at fault shows no one how to change. I have met very few leaders that teach how to walk by the spirit

but have no problem telling someone how fast they can be sent to hell. So where's the leading in love that's what Jesus

Christ did and the Apostle Paul 1 Corinthians 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod,or in Love and the spirit

of meekness. Eph.4:15 speaking the truth in Love not fire and brimstone. Just sharing some heart.

Earl P.S. We need to take a hint from our Brother in heaven he always taught and displayed the Love, Heart and healing power of His Father and He was very aware of His enemy but did not magnify or dwell on him or the world. So for us

Phil.4:8+9 at the end the guarantee and the God of peace shall be with you.

Earl,

Sorry, it took me a while to study your posts. Scripture is clear; the lake of fire is real and it was prepared for Satan and his angels, Matthew 25:41. Those whose name is not in the book of life will be cast into this lake of fire, the second death, this is the death the saints will be spared. According to scripture we all will be judged and our reward will be given, good or bad according to our works Revelation 22:12. Each of us will have different rewards, some lights will be brighter than others, Daniel 12:2-3 and whether in the lake of fire, the punishments may be also judged accordingly.

My understanding is we do not get a second chance for salvation after this life in this flesh, Hebrews 9:27. We have this, there are evil and good people that live and have lived and those who did not have a chance to hear of the word of God, this may show how they will be judged at the white throne judgment, Romans 2:12-15 (this is my understanding of this), but those who have heard and rejected it, Katy bar the door.

I must humbly disagree, I am not in the lake of fire, we will be judged with fire, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. The Bible has symbolic wording but represents real things, people, kingdoms, etc. I am sorry I can't follow interpreting the scriptures by allegorizing all, I feel we turn all scripture into parables.

RLW

Brother Rick:

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:11 These things COMMAND and TEACH.

Does the doctrines of man believe Jesus is SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, NO.

Does the doctrines of man TEACH Jesus is SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, NO.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together (BE ONE) except they be agreed?

Matthew 5:25 AGREE with your adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him: lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all DECEIVABLENESS of unrighteousness in then that perish; because they RECEIVE NOT the TRUTH, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie.

The lie, man's doctrine, that God is not a saviour of the world.

Matthew 5:44 And I say unto you, Love you enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:45 That you may be children of your Father which is in heaven; for he maketh the sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just an unjust.

Do you believe God COMMANDS you to love your enemies, YET he is going to send his enemies to HELL.

Man LOVES the doctrine of HELL because that gives them freedom to HATE their enemies.

Earl What other people do is on them our Job spiritual occupation is Go,Stand,Speak to the people the words of this Life, also 2 Corinthians 5: 17-21 we reconcile men to God witnesses, we are ambassadors, we are the righteousness of

God in Him. Our job is to love em up not ridicule condemn and criticise, the world does that. Remember there the lost bugs in the dark we are the light that attracts, so let your light so shine. We say that we are His and He is Ours deeds are

proof of this and not words and these are the proving hours!

Earl You didn't imply that was your statement that God showed you the Kingdom or whats really going on.

Earl Man knew God Romans 1:18-22 they knew God and they changed not God, also The bible is the Knowledge of

God it is just not believed. So don't understand your statement.

Brother Rick, I was not implying that God has only revealed the truth to me, but that it has to be God, through his word and his S pirit, that reveals the TRUTH, not following the tradition of man's teaching.

Few find the way.

Two thirds of the world don't read the bible, mostly those professing to be Christians are the ones that read the bible.

Why then does only a few, that read the bible, find the way, this should concern us, what is it that we think we see, but don't.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, for JUDGEMENT I am come unto this world, that they which SEE NOT might SEE, and they WHICH SEE might be MADE BLIND.

Satan who deceives the WHOLE WORLD, that includes the two thirds that profess to be Christians.

What is it that man teaches. that deceives the whole world.

You have to let the Spirit, through his word teach you, and it will be different than what man teaches.

Amen Sister Sacha, Hosea 4, man has no knowledge of God's way. One day they will be like Paul, in an instant of burning light, they will fall to their knees and say, what will you have me do LORD.

Good Morning English Sacha My bible says God is all love when or if some decides to go totally against the God of

Life and love and peace then the only thing left for God to do is I'll wait, but unless you come back to me my hands are

tied. Romans 1:21-23 man walks away God is, Jesus Christ in the gospels walked and worked the works of God

for all those with one condition they had to believe and even then he helped there unbelief. The only time he didn't do

many mighty works was in his own home town because they didn't believe. John 3:16 speaks loudly.

Hosea Ch 4 .

Are you saying that sinners should be punished to satisfy your need for vengeance ? Or why should you be good if the only punishment bad people suffer is death ? Is being ressurected to spend eternity with your God and your saviour not enough of a reward for you ? Do you want to be able to look down into hell and watch people suffer eternal torture , many of whom will have never had the chance to know the Truth through no fault of their own ? Children ? Mentally handicapped or mentally ill people ? Will that make the sacrifices that you have made in your life in order to spend eternity with The God of All Creation and His Son your Redeemer worth it to you ? GOD IS LOVE , HE HATES NO ONE ,HE LOVES EVERY ONE , HE IS KIND AND MERCY FULL TO EVERY ONE . Do you think He wants to see the ignorant tortured for ever ? He would be able to see that , do you think that would give Him pleasure ,HE SAYS : THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH , He says that . There are millions of people who have lived and we're loved by their God and didn't know any thing about Him ,He didn't love them any less because of their ignorance . They should defo go to a place of torture and misery for ever ,is that what you think ? I'm very glad that God is not like us . Sorry if I sound aggressive , I don't mean to , amongst the things I know about God : He is not cruel He loves all of His creation He is never unfair or cold hearted or vicious and He takes no pleasure in our suffering .I'm not a J . W. in case you are wondering .

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The JWs brought in their elders to talk to me two days later. We discussed the same matter with our Bibles opened. They also spoke of death as sin's penalty (as you have) & that no other eternal fiery judgement awaited the unrepentant. So I asked, 'if you're preaching a salvation that ultimately finds one in the everlasting Presence of God, are you then saying that death is the only punishment for the ungodly?' They affirmed that.

I then asked, 'But if we all die & some are raised incorruptible to reign with Christ & God, what then is the judgement for sin & Christ rejection?' 'Only death', they said. 'So does it makes any sense that an innocent Jesus, God's Son, should suffer an horrible death for us, the apostles should willingly lay down their lives for the love of Christ & the Gospel, & countless others have not denied their Saviour, many walking joyfully to the stake of fiery death, just so that the sinner's present & final judgement rests only in the grave?' Those men arose & left.

If it wasn't for the fact that Jesus was my sin-Bearer, bringing me into a new & right relationship with the Godhead, and that eternal suffering was my certain destiny, then I would not be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ today - I would be quite satisfied to 'eat, drink & be merry', die a natural death without a Saviour, maybe raised up later for judgement & put to death again with no further consciousness in the grave. But when conviction came, I ran into the arms of a merciful Saviour in Heaven because I fled from the arms of a ruthless Satan awaiting his fiery destiny ( Revelation 20:10, 21:8). The Offence of the Cross is ceased if any other Gospel is preached that provides an easy road to indifferent sinners.

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Thank you for those two sets of comments brother Earl. Briefly, in reference to those three verses from the OT, the thought that comes through from them (in our present subject), is that both David & Ezekiel spoke about "the lowest hell & the nether parts of the Earth". The grave or entombment of a body cannot support the meaning that these writers intended. 'Sheol' does have other meanings, but you have chosen the 'grave' as the consistent one (which I agree, is generally seen), whereas the 'nether parts of the Earth & lowest hell' clearly mean something deeper & more sinister than just the grave.

Leaving that aside, I'm back to my original story of the JW's visit to me, so I'll proceed without receiving an answer to my question. Firstly, the Gospel, which proclaims to all the results & benefits of Christ's Sacrifice, speaks to both the Father & to mankind.

God required it: for a Lamb must be slain to satisfy God, as 'payment by a life for a life'. Not only was His Anger appeased (= propitiation), but He could forgive us because His Son took upon Himself our sin & penalty securing our redemption & acceptance with the Father.

Man needed the Gospel: for there could be no other who could bear his sin, forgive us completely & present us faultless before the Father. So the repentant sinner was not only forgiven through Christ's Sacrifice but was also freed from the penalty that his sin rightfully deserved.

Earl

people are not lost because they lack knowledge. (That is what gnostics teach). People are lost because sin makes them enemies of God, like we once were. When we hear the gospel of Jesus, the Word is effective in giving us fait to believe. Some will accept this faith and others will reject it. Christ did die for all mankind, and His atonement was for all mankind, however, He did say that those who do not believe are condemned. He stated many times that hell is a place of punishment for those who are condemned for unbelief. I don't have the Scriptures handy, but perhaps that is something you can research on your own. I am heading off to bed. Have 10 yards of gravel arriving early in the morning and I have my work cut out for me raking it all out.

God's blessing to you. I understand that we will most likely not come to agreement on this. That is ok. We have both spoken our thoughts on this. I leave it in the hands of the Lord to sow us the truth in this matter. Good night.

Sister GiGI, According to scripture, all mankind IS DEAD (in trespasses), they have no life in them. Christ came and died to COVER the trespasses of ALL MANKIND. He was resurrected so ALL MANKIND could have his life.

All mankind HAS BEEN REDEEMED, and their life is HID with CHRIST.

Colossians 3:3 For ye (all mankind) are dead and your life is HID with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if the gospel be HID, it is HID to them that are lost.

Mankind is SAVED, they can not lose their salvation, they can not go to hell, their SAVED.

Their lost because of lack of knowledge.

The gospel is bringing this knowledge to mankind.

God will cause them to repent, cause them to believe, cause them to have faith, cause them to love, ect., etc., because it his LIFE IN YOU. Of yourself you can do nothing.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Man has no knowledge of this.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God (his life) that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO his good pleasure (Because it's HIS LIFE).

Hello again, Earl, I affirm what Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 as another example of what was considered the gospel taken to the world for salvation.

When speaking with someone about the gospel, I ask the person to tell me what they know about Jesus and salvation. And then I know what to tell them to urge them to be saved through Jesus.

I think it is good to ask others what they think is the gospel message. It drives us to Thank the Word to review what Paul and Peter said it was. Thank you for asking. You are welcome to relay to me what you say the gospel is, if you wish.

Dear Earl

I will simply refer you to what Peter preached in Acts 2:22-39 as a great account of the gospel that was preached after Pentecost. This I believe.

Sister GIGi, how do you define the gospel of the Kingdom of God.

God Bless You!

Brother Ronald. Those (CHOSEN) have their part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection). The chosen want be in the second resurrection.

Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection of the dead (we are dead in our trespasses, sinful flesh) ....

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die anymore (they died the first death, their life for the life of Christ), for they are equal unto the angel; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it (the SEED) a body as it has pleased him, and to every SEED his (CHRIST'S) own body.

The chosen are called to be priest, under their High Priest, Christ, in the kingdom on earth, when all other flesh has been resurrected, to judgement.

Jeremiah 51:19-23

Isaiah 65:12-17

Isaiah 66:18-24

The above scriptures, and others not listed, is the white throne judgement.

Brother Ronald, Revelation is signified. The lake of fire REPRESENTS SOMETHING.

The first and death death REPRESENTS SOMETHING.

Since there is a second death, there has to also be a first death.

The chosen take part in the first death ( John 12:25) while they still have breath in their nostrils.

In Revelation 9:18 The third are killed (they die for Christ's life as Christ died to give you his life) by fire and brimstone. IN CHRIST (also Revelation 8)

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Ezekiel 5:2-4 This is the same third described in Revelation 9:18 and Zechariah 13:9

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity, He that killeth (teaches truth) with the sword (the word) must also be killed with the sword (the word).

You are in the lake of fire, being purified and destroyed at the same time.

God Bless You!

Earl Actually according to the young s analytical concordance there are four different meanings biblically for hell,

sheol unseen state, hades unseen world, gehenna valley of hinnom the fire that never goes out and to send to tartarus.

There are many words translated to english that have different understanding in the original texts. That being satd the translators still did a phenomenal piece of work!

Earl Apparently what you are saying is that God told you what the kingdom really is and nobody else is correct in there thinking or belief or what they've been taught concerning the scripture. So O.K. God Bless!

Thank you, Chris, for responding. I just looked up what the early church taught about hell, and it is aligned with your thinking and mine. Those martyrs that followed right after the apostles, having been appointed as overseers (bishops) by the apostles or by one that the apostles had appointed, taught the doctrine of hell as a place of eternal separation from God and punishment. This is what Jesus saves us from (sin, death, hell, and the evil one) along with what He saves us to (justification before God, forgiveness of sin, resurrection of our bodies to immortality, and communion with God for eternity. This stance has been affirmed by the church through the centuries in both Catholic and Protestant sects. There have always been those who teach as Earl does, but these teachings have been routinely denounced through the church age as error.

It is good to hear from you. You have such a solid take on issues and we all need to such perspectives.