Discuss John 1 Page 24

(Part 1)

Is Jesus Christ God?

After reading through a post discussing who Jesus is and seeing that some believe He is a created being by God, some believe He is God, and some just say He is God's Son so He cannot be God Himself, I would just like to share my understanding on who Jesus is. First of all, a lot of the discussion has been centered on John Chapter 1 which I agree shows not only the deity of Jesus, but also shows that He is God manifested in the flesh. But what I would like to use instead is Matthew Chapter 1.

Matthew Chapter 1 can be broken into two sections, Verses 1 through 17 prove that Jesus Christ literally and legally fulfills the Abrahamic and Davidic covenant for the Jews. And then the second section, Matthew 1:18-25 gives us the ancestry of the Christ. The entire ancestry table is found in Matthew 1:1-17. The second section gives us the ancestry of the Christ explained. In simpler terms, these two sections would be called "The birth of Christ," and "The birth of Christ explained."

Matthew 1:1 would be the caption or title. It is entitled the ancestry, not the genealogy. The word for genealogy is not used in Verse 1. And there is a reason for that. The word for genealogy in the Greek text is GENEALOGIA. But the word used in Verse 1 is GENESIS, pronounced Gen-ay-sees, with the "G" sound as in Girl. The word "generation" in Verse 1 is the Greek word GENESIS. It is not the word for birth.

Matthew is purposely avoiding the word for birth. What Matthew is saying here is that this is the scroll of the origin of the Christ. Why is this important? Well, what Matthew is presenting here fits perfectly to what John said in John 1:14 that "The word became flesh and dwelt among us." You see, Jesus was not born. He became flesh. He has always been in existence. This is why Matthew avoids using the word for birth. He is presenting to us the origin of the Christ.

There is an option to receive an audio presentation of the Bible from this website. When you select a Book of the Bible and the chapter you want to read (at the Box called 'Select a Book'), you will see your chapter open up when you click on it. Then to its right hand, there are various options. Select the bottom one with picture of headphones - turn on your speakers and listen to God's Word spoken.

Dear Christina, In James 4:7 the Bible says, Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Do not argue with him. Whatever you are being tempted to do, rebuke him with a Scripture that teaches you not to fall to that temptation.

An example can be found in Luke 4:2-4

2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Plus, a lot of our difficulties arise from unconfessed sin and not doing God's will. We all have pet sins.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Search your heart, confess your sins to God, and repent--turn away from them.

Psalms 139:23, 24 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psalm 25:4 Show me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

Galatians 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I appreciate your response, Doug. I see that you do believe that the "Word was with God and the Word was God". But is our difference in understanding lie only in "what happened after the Word was (then) made flesh (i.e. His life in humanity)?" I think there is another important matter to look at before that, i.e. before Jesus was given God's Glory on Earth, where was He before His Coming?

So, this Word that was with God and was God ( John 1:1), was not only the Word uttered by God to create all things (v3), but in God's Wisdom & Plan, He gave His Word flesh (v14) - drawn from the Essence of God into humanity, & the disciples saw that this Glory which reflected from Him was that of the Father's only begotten Son (not first created, 'protokitises', but first born, 'prototokos': in relation to the first 'of its type in creation, of divinity & humanity as one'). At a previous time, someone else translated that verse to be, 'that Jesus then became God's Word' (i.e. Jesus came & then the Word placed into Him; rather than 'the Word came & was made human'). Herein is the problem.

Then when we look at John 17:5, we can see in Jesus' Prayer that He recalls to His Father about the Glory that He had with Him. This glory Jesus had to lay aside for the sake of becoming human ( Philippians 2:5-8). And in John 17:1-5, Jesus speaks to His Father about this Glory: that Jesus was in the throes of completing the Work of the Father, of bringing Glory to Him through it (v4), and now longs for God's Glory (which Jesus once had), to be granted back to Him (v5). Now exactly what this Glory entails, we're not told. But it would certainly reflect His Position within God's Person (seen in the verses cited), the task accomplished on Earth, & the Glory, Power & Victory emanating from the coming resurrection.

And the glory we've received: being in Christ as Christ is in God ( Col 3:3) - not gods, but sharing in all the goodness & vitality of the One Who is now our Father & Jesus our Brother.

Yes I will pray for you too hope you feel better I will ask God to heal you as soon as posible because no one likes being in rehab. Your Parents are probably so worried about you because sometimes you might think if your parents don't pray for you you don't think they care about you, but God always cares about you and he is always going to have a plan for you. I will pray really hard. feel better soon.

I want my online Bible to read to me. Can you make it read to me?

Amen. John 1:2-3 debunks the false doctrine of Jesus being "created" and some try to retrofit the word "begotten" word to make it seem like it means that instead of its actual meaning "only". I wonder where this recent movement trying to deny Jesus's divinity originates from, because it seems like a recent attack, perhaps even coordinated.

Thanks Chris for your reply! I agree with the thought that the "Word was with God and the Word was God". I think the difference in beliefs is what happened when the in Word was made flesh. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I believe he was full of "grace and truth". He carried nature of God, but needed the grace of God and had to access it like we do. That is why he prayed, fasted, etc to resist temptation. Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. v 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: I believe he reflected his father at all times. Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; The following verse to me is interesting indicating that we have been given the glory that God gave him. John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: A mystery I have: is when was he considered the begotten Son and when did that happen. Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. These thoughts are not all inclusive, but enough hopefully to clear any misunderstandings.

Lord we need another great awakening. I pray for revival in our nation. Again. In my personal walk with You. I'm in a time of discouragement probably due to health issues. Forgive me Father God.

John 1:1-2

John 1:14

John 3:16

Hello Ronald. If I might add my understanding to some of the Scriptural references you gave.

Revelation 3:14: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." The Greek for 'beginning' is 'arche', as we add that prefix to the words such as 'arch-enemy, arch-bishop, arch-rival. It certainly has the primary meaning of a 'beginning or first in line', but it clearly denotes 'one who holds the primary highest position/control over others'. That being the case, if Jesus first appeared as the creation by God in the womb of Mary, it could never be said that He was the beginning/first in line to all of God's Creation, which happened several millennia prior. But Jesus was there because He was involved in the creative Work ( John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2).

Colossians 1:15: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." I understand that 'firstborn' indicated here, refers to the 'rights & privileges' of the firstborn child (e.g. 2 Chronicles 21:3). All God's creation have received His Love & Care, but at the birth of His Son into humanity, Jesus, as the Son, was the first(born) to gain/inherit His Father's full estate, as well as enjoying "the fullness of God in Himself" ( Colossians 1:19). But the full riches of God to humanity could only be realized by those placing their trust in the Forerunner & Shepherd of their faith, Jesus Christ.

John 17:5: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." What was His Glory? We can assume all of God's Glory, for He is the Word of/from God, but even if that wasn't the case, Jesus, as the Word of God, had that Glory even before creation of the worlds.

You stated, "I honor the Son for what He gave up." If Jesus (the Word) didn't exist from eternity within the Person of God, & was only created from the womb of Mary, I wonder what He had to give up? Your responses have been very interesting.

Hi Donald,

I think your doctrine of not believing in Jesus's divinity requires a few hoops to jump through:

1. Not take John 1:1 literally that says Jesus (Word) is God

2. Ignore that God is plural 'we' and 'us' in Genesis

3. Assume that Jesus's behavior as a temporary man with limited power automatically means that that is how He normally is

4. Misinterpret the word "begotten"

5. Ignore the words Godhead and claim its a bad translation

6. Ignore that Jesus's name Immanuel means 'God with us'

7. Ignore 1 John 5:7-8 that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are one, and try to dilute the word 'one' to make it seem insignificant.

8. Ignore John 1:3 that Jesus has always been and made everything and claim that Jesus was created later

9. Ignore that Jesus is the same I AM in the NT as the I AM in the OT

10. Ignore that Jesus is the same First/Last, Beginning/End in the NT as the same from God in the OT.

There's much more, but I'll stop at 10. I'm also not 100% sure you even read my last 2 replies so I don't want to spent energy on something you may not even read. There's an enormous about of verses supporting that Jesus is God and nothing clearly saying the opposite. For example if you found a verse that says 'Jesus is NOT God', then you would then only begin to your cause to counter the Bible already saying Jesus IS God in John 1:1, but we don't even have that.

With all the scriptural evidence here, is it possible you have any vested interest to prove that Jesus isn't God for another reason? If you read enough verses supporting that Jesus IS God, is that something you might reconsider someday or do you feel content with your current belief?

Do you believe Jesus is truly Lord like it says in Romans 10:9?

God bless.

Hi Ronald,

Your first point about "In the beginning" is the 2nd time you brought that up and I already responded to it- did you see it? Just scroll up. Not only that, GiGi also responded to you on that exact point too, but you still brought that false assumption up as 'evidence' against Jesus being God even after it was explained?

The next couple paragraphs seems hard to follow on how this relates to my previous comment.

The end of your comment I see you did respond not to the "I AM" question but to the "First/Last, Beginning/End" part. I see you are somehow viewing this as confirmation that Jesus has limits. This is strange to me, because this exact phrase means he does NOT have limits, that He spans all existence. What was significant about this is God in the Old Testament says this AND Jesus says it in the New Testament. And "I AM" was spoken by God in the Old Testament AND by Jesus in the New Testament. Do you understand the significance of this?

Finally, I can tell that your use of the word "begotten" is not the real meaning of that word. That word means "only". Jesus is God the Father's *only* son. See the Greek word here: Link

Some have misinterpreted this word, hopefully not intentionally, to make it seem as though Jesus was "created." But not only does that word not mean that, but the Bible already debunked this in advance, as if they even predicted people might one say start saying stuff like this.

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

This means all things were made by Jesus and without Jesus, nothing else was made. In verses 1-2 before it, it clearly says Jesus was always there, and so was God the Father. Both of them together. This debunks the idea that God the Father created Jesus.

There is a mountain of Bible verses saying Jesus is God and not one that says the opposite. Even Jesus's name Immanuel is "God with us."

Anthon,

I do hope your rehab goes successfully in learning to walk again. I will pray for you over this time you are there, so please check back in with us with updates to remind me to pray for you.

Anthon Don't you think God knows your condition and by his SON Jesus Christ your still his child born again

key word born can't be reversed, also collossians 2:13-23 then all same epistle chapter 3 deals with where

we keep our mind. Look brother we have been redeemed i.e. bought back and justified i.e. and we have the

righteousness of God inChrist which means we stand infront of God with no sense of sin guilt or condemnation

walking by the spirit so do not beat yourself up GOD ISNT. If God is no longer against us when we do our best

then why do we when our sin is bought and payed for not saying if we blow we don't ask forgivemess, we

acknowledge our broken fellowship which is what sin and do it honestly then keep moving on. That's what our

great example King davuid did when he blew it with bathsheba and had her husband murdered, he acknowledge

his sin ask forgiveness was in sackclothe and ashes three days prayer that the child would live then when he got

word that he died immediately got himself together and back to doing what God told him to be doing. Remember

this is a man that God says scripturally uis a man after His own heart. So love yourself and think of yourself as

God thinks of you, and remember the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath IT IS WRITTEN.

Hey Adam,

Part 1

I can say and I believe you as well, we believe God has no beginning or no end. In John 1:1 it starts with in the beginning, why? Does it mean Jesus the Son of God has been God from eternity or is that an assumption? Scripture tells us Jesus the Amen is the beginning of creation, Rev. 3:14.

Scripture tells us Jesus in whom we have redemption through His blood and forgiveness of our sins and is the image of the invisible God (the manifestation of God). Jesus is the firstborn of every creature and through Him, everything that is was created through and for Him Col. 1:12-17.

It also says the Father made us meet/qualify of the inheritance and says He, Jesus was before "all in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things". Does that say He was eternal with the Father or does scripture tell us He was the firstborn of every creature/all creation in the beginning?

By this Jesus can say "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the first and the last, He, Jesus was first of all and He will be the last and the ending of this creation when the mystery of God should be finished and the new heaven and the new earth (the new creation perfect without spot).

Jesus the Son of God was the beginning, He is the only begotten Son of God. Does scripture honestly tell how He was begotten? Can we only say God ordained it before the world? Jesus said in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. With our human minds can we have any clue to what that glory is?

See part 2,

My circumstances at the moment do not allow me to go to church on Saturday the sabbath because I am temporarily in a rehabilitation center learning to walk again after about a month stay in the hospital for medical reasons. I wanted to know while I am not keeping the sabbath holy. I do read and listen to my Bible on my smartphone. I hope to be discharged from said rehab place in another 3 months or so. I wanted to know if I am still sinning against God

Dear John, be not afraid, if you have taken Jesus as your Lord and Savior, He will not send you to the bad place (Hell) for doing or saying something wrong for it says in Romans 3:23 "We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God." When we sin, 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

We can never lose our salvation by failing our Lord. 2 Corinthians 1:22 "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

God bless you and keep you, John.

Page 2.

Therefore, to your words, "the Spirit doesn't become flesh (man)" - the Spirit remains as God's Spirit. God took His Word & clothed the Word (Jesus) with human flesh ( John 1:1-14). And this act cannot be an impossible task for God. Is anything too hard for the LORD? Jesus lived out His Days in holiness & worked by the Power of God's Spirit within Him. And this Holy Spirit is the same as Jesus' Spirit, even as Paul declared ( Romans 8:9), & Peter as well ( 1 Peter 1:11).

Question: how can the Spirit of Christ be the same as God's Spirit ( Romans 8:9), if Jesus is not eternally a part of the Godhead? As Christians, we have the Holy Spirit within, but none of us can say that He has replaced our spirit with His Spirit ( Romans 8:16). Our spirits will always exist, but now we have another Spirit Who will "abide with us forever" ( John 14:16). But Jesus Spirit was only the Holy Spirit, & not a human spirit, because He came from the Father Who is Spirit ( John 17:5).

Hello Ronald,

Thank you for participating in this interesting and important conversation with Adam.

I just want to enter the conversation here and address what you said about "in the beginning". This was not speaking of God having a beginning (He didn't. He is eternal and everlasting and ever-existing). Nor does it speak of the beginning for the Word, the Son of God, (Jesus). (He always exists as one of the persons of the Godhead.)

It is speaking of the very beginning of creation. When only the Triune Godhead existed eternally, nothing else existed until the Godhead chose to create everything else that is and has existed. This "everything" does not include God (Elohim) which is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three Persons of the One Godhead existed forever outside of time and space. When the Godhead created everything, this included all spiritual beings and realms and all material creatures and the physical realm (all that is made of matter, all of the energy and powers that affect the physical realm (time, gravity, + and - charges in atoms, sound waves, radio waves, magnetism-for example.) These things were created (made from no pre-existing materials), made (made of the materials God created), and formed (as with man, from materials that God had created). Jesus is not one of these creations nor was He made in the beginning. That has long been considered heretical teaching. When the Word, became flesh, the second Person of the Godhead God took upon Himself humanity with all of its aspects, body, soul, spirit. The Father (the first person of the Godhead) created the DNA to join with Mary's ova to conceive this humanity that from that moment of conception on united the second person of the Godhead (the Word) with humanity. That is why the church has taught through the centuries that (the Word who is God ( John 1:1) always existed and is always God, but this union of the Word who is God and humanity in Jesus did have a beginning at conception.

continued

Hi Ronald,

I'm not able to follow your thought process on all your points, but some. I think most of your points fall within the same logic/belief that Jesus prayed and referred to the Father as "God" and even prayed to "God" therefore how can Jesus be God and pray to Himself? Am I understanding your position accurately? If so, I think most of your "If Jesus is God..." arguments seem to fall within this one overall assumption.

The thing missing from this assumption is that Jesus is not in His normal state. He became a man to go to earth to live as us and to die for our sins. John 1. Yes, Jesus prayed to God the Father. I believe He limited His power to a degree to live on Earth like us. I think He could have exercised His power, but chose not to. Example: Matthew 26:53.

Philippians 2:6 - this says Jesus is equal to God. Verse 7-8 says he humbled Himself as a servant as a man. v9-11 then Jesus was exalted, that every knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord, name above all other names.

If you believe the Bible when it says that says Jesus created all things ( John 1:3 ), is equal to God ( phil 2:6), is one with God ( John 10:30), is God ( John 1:1), has a name above all other names ( Phil 2:9-11), should be baptized in His name ( Matthew 28:19) then is it such a stretch to believe that's true?

Simply believing what the Bible says is not a 'doctrine' as some claim, but those believing things the Bible doesn't say is definitely a human doctrine.

I get that people have a hard time comprehending that God is plural and how exactly that words out. We will find out in the end. But just because people don't understand 1 John 5:7 doesn't mean it's not true. Truth is true regardless of whether people choose to believe it or not.

John 8:58 - What do you think Jesus meant when he said "I am"?

Exodus 3:14 - What do you think of God saying "I am"?

John 5:23 - strong warning to anyone who dishonors Jesus.

God bless.

Hi Ronald,

I appreciate your respectul remarks and am ok with continuing to dialog as long as that remains.

I can offer a challenge to few of your points in your last comment.

1. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning", God does not have a beginning.

It sounds like you are using this as evidence to support your view. I don't view it that way at all. First, this says "in the beginning" not "in God's beginning" or "in the Word's beginning". So, this phrase doesn't suggest any limitation on God whatsoever, but is just marking for us in our own human terms that Jesus was always there.

Do you remember Jesus saying this: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." That doesn't mean He's limited, but the opposite, it means He spans everything! Revelation 22:13 - notice the words in red that Jesus said that.

It also says this in Revelation 1:8, notice it says "says the Lord". Lord is Greek word kurios which is supreme authority or God. Some translations say "says the Lord God" and is the same meaning. This is Jesus speaking about Himself, it too is in red.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." - notice this is the same claim Jesus made in Revelation. If there's only one and only one who makes that claim then it seems logical that the claim in both the New and Old Testament are from the same being.

Revelation 11:17 - This uses the same word Lord (kurios) of which Jesus is Lord ( Romans 10:9) and uses the word theos (God) with it, so it calls Jesus "Lord God." Do you agree? How do you feel about this verse?

Isaiah 43:11 - "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." So, it says Jesus is Lord and our savior in the New Testament and there's no other Lord. Here in the OT it also says the Lord is the savior and no one else. That is all in alignment with John 10:30. Yes?

John 5:23 - we must honor Jesus.

Hi David, I don't know where your heart is in regards to your public comment- that is between you and God.

I know from past experience that people have used similar arguments in a dishonest way, however, in attempt to discredit God. I noticed you claimed those who believe in the trinity as it says in 1 John 5:7 didn't start until constantinople. That is untrue. People would have believed in the Godhead the first time they heard or read the scriptures, because its direct from scripture. 1 John 5:7, John 1:1, Philippians 2:6, and numerous verses that talk about the Godhead and plural "we" and "us" for God all align for even a child to understand that God consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. God is aware of our hearts and any attempts to discredit Him or spread false info will be taken seriously. Those who disrespect, dishonor, slander Jesus may not even be saved according to John 5:23.

Hi Ronald,

Thanks for explaining your position.

Your comment stood out to me: "Jesus is the word, every word Jesus said was of God and from God the Father, the word of God became flesh not God. "

What's interesting is that John 1:1 does not say what you wrote. You acknowledge that Jesus is the Word as it says in John 1:14, ok so we agree on that aside from your use of a lowercase word instead of Word. The name Word is a proper title, similar to many other names of Jesus has been given.

1. After you used lowercase to describe Jesus instead of Word you then slipped in "word" but as a different meaning but to also create distance between God and Jesus.

That is surprising, because John 1:1 literally says "the Word was God."

Bible: "Word was God."

You: "every word Jesus said was of God."

That seems sneaky to me. That's not what that verse says. I have been in prayer about this and I encourage you to do the same. Surely God will honor those who seek Him with wisdom and understanding about who He is, do you agree?

There's no verse in the Bible that says Jesus isn't God. All the scripture supports that He is part of a triune God and is the Son. Yes, the Father is also called God and I see how people latch onto that. And I see how people don't want to understand that God can sometimes mean God the Father and can sometimes mean a triune God. But if someone believes there's no trinity and that Jesus isn't part of the Godhead as scriptures say, then how else do people explain the verses where God refers to itself as "we" and "us" and how Jesus created everything John 1:3. It says the 3 are 1 in 1 John 5:7. It doesn't say the part of the Godhead is everyone, or Paul, or Peter, or Samson or you. No, there's only 3 and it includes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost just like it says.

One last comment for now:

"The doctrine says all three are equal, does scripture agree?"

The Bible doesn't say their roles are equal. What doctrine are you talking about?

Hi Robert, you just replied to my comment with John 1:1 that clearly says Jesus is God. Do you believe Jesus is the Word as it says in John 1:14?

And on this thread I just posted 26 other verses supporting that Jesus is God, the Son, and that God is truine. How many verses have you found supporting the opposite?

To give this even consideration, please share at least 26 or more verses supporting your view and then we can pray over this and read them together. Surely if we pray to God to know the truth and open our hearts to receive His wisdom and truth we can come to arrive at the truth, do you agree?

Link

John 1:1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Who is the Word?

John 1:14-15 says the Word is Jesus. Does anyone deny that the Word is Jesus?

If someone believes John 1:14, then do they believe John 1:1

"...the Word was God."

"...[Jesus] was God."

JESUS.

WAS.

GOD.

John 1:1

This is God's Word.

Some here are saying "Jesus was NOT God" despite John 1:1 clearly saying Jesus WAS God. I'd like to know exactly how someone can believe in all other verses of the Bible except this one? If something WAS something, that seems to offer little room for interpretation. It means it's the same, does it not? So, if something WAS something, how does someone twist this into believing it says something WAS NOT something?

It then must be asked: since it takes so much effort to take a sentence something WAS something to turn it into: something WAS NOT something, what is the true underlying motive here? Does God's Word carry the most weight and influence or does something else?

This is eerily similar to Gen 3:4 where satan denied what God said and claimed that they shall NOT surely die. Satan loves opposites and this seems to have his signature, does it not?

I welcome any perspective I'm missing, but do not consider anything other Bible verses as valid evidence. God's Word is all that matters and because there's already numerous verses supporting that Jesus is God like John 1:1 then that is what is true. Lastly, why not just pray and ask God directly to know the truth? Genuinely ask!

1 John 5:7-8

John 10:30

John 8:19

Genesis 1:26

Genesis 11:6-7

(plural "us")

Philippians 2:5-8

2 Corinthians 5:19

John 1:3

Matthew 28:19

1 Peter 1:2

2 Corinthians 13:14

Deuteronomy 6:4

John 14:10

John 20:28

1 John 2:22-24

Matthew 1:23-25

Colossians 2:9

Acts 17:29

Romans 1:20

Isaiah 7:14

Hebrews 1:8

Isaiah 44:6

Isaiah 43:11

Jesus is the Son, not the Father. Did you somehow think from my comment that I thought otherwise, if so, how?

John 1:1 clearly says Jesus is God and the mountain of other verses I posted all support that. For example, God being called 'we' and 'us' plural. How else do you explain that?

Jesus was worshipped and called God directly by His disciples and He allowed it and never denied it.

Not sure if you've truly read all the verses I posted above, but how do you account for that mountain of overwhelming evidence supporting Jesus's divinity and believe He isn't?

And finally, have you prayed to God the Father directly and asked Him for what the truth is? Have you deeply and prayerfully read the scriptures and prayed for wisdom and understanding so that the truth will be revealed?

Hi Doug,

This is an interesting logical argument. I find that in 1 Peter 3:22. Let's assume for argument's sake that your conclusion is correct and you get 1 point for this.

But for every verse you cite, there are even more that say that Jesus IS God, like John 1:1 saying the "Word was God" and verse 14 that Jesus is the Word.

This could continue to play out and you can cite any number of verses to support your position, but again we don't run out of very compelling verses saying that Jesus is God.

Let's say that it's a dead even race. 30 verses suggesting Jesus isn't vs 30 verses suggesting He is.

Then what? Which do you choose to believe?

I don't know if you've gone through this exercise or not, but I now have a spoiler: someone will run out of verses supporting that Jesus "isn't" God long before the verses supporting He IS God. Not only that, but each of the verses commonly cited to claim that Jesus "isn't" God require some extra creative interpretation and human logic whereas the verses supporting the other side can be read and interpreted more literally. Not only that, but there's logical explanations for why Jesus called His Father God. The main reason is that He temporarily became a human being and limited His power. Phil 2:6-7. So, yes, as a man, He prayed to His Father and called Him God. So, all verses must be considered as a whole, not cherry picked in order to have understanding about the Godhead and I admit it is hard to comprehend as we don't have anything like it in on earth. But perhaps like an orange with seeds, pulp, skin. Someone calls pulp an orange, and it is.

1 John 5:7-8

John 10:30

John 8:19

Genesis 1:26

, Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us")

Philippians 2:5-8

2 Corinthians 5:19

John 1:3

Matthew 28:19

1 Peter 1:2

2 Corinthians 13:14

Deuteronomy 6:4

John 14:10

John 20:28

1 John 2:22-24

Matthew 1:23-25

Colossians 2:9

Acts 17:29

Romans 1:20

Isaiah 7:14

Hebrews 1:8

Isaiah 44:6

Isaiah 43:11

John 1:1 flat out says Jesus is God. Verse 14 says the Word is Jesus and verse 1 says the "Word was God". There's no slipping out of this one. Some are very motivated to make this mean anything else but this. Some use incredible mental gymastics, but when a verse directly says Jesus is God, I think its now coming down to ones own faith in the Bible if they believe the Bible and have faith in God's Word as a Christian or not.

The Bible also says Jesus created everything and was there in the beginning. He is not a created being which some assume "begotton" means. I've never heard all these creative twists on scripture until just a couple years ago and still amazes me how crafty satan is to deceive so many Christians in such a clever way as to get them to deny the divinity of Jesus. It's like a pastor fell away and wrote books or went campaining against Jesus or something. There is a mountain of verses affirming Jesus's divinity, and only few verses requiring twisting in order to arrive at the other conclusion. People trusting flawed human logic over God's Word. Itching ears want to hear certain things sometimes. God bless.

You're correct Robert, Jesus was always referred to as the Son OF God, or the Son OF Man - and so He was & is. Yet, when we consider other Scriptures of how Jesus regarded His relationship to the Father, we are compelled to re-think our beliefs.

Other Scriptures have been given on this thread, but I would emphasize only a few:

John 17:5 - Jesus had God's Glory even before the worlds were created.

Matthew 1:23 - Jesus' Name, Emmanuel, is "God with us".

Colossians 1:15-17 - Jesus is God's Image; Jesus created all things; Jesus was before all things & He holds all things together.

John 10:30 - Jesus' claimed equality with God, for this very reason the Jews wanted to stone Him.

Just a few very compelling verses to show beyond doubt that this Jesus was not a mere created being for the world's salvation. He was the Essence of God (the Word of God made flesh) Who was declared as God coming in the flesh ( John 1:1-14).

We would have to discount Jesus' former Glory in Heaven, His Name as, "God now with mankind", His creative & sustaining Work, and His Own claim of equality with the Father, to believe that Jesus was anything less than wholly Divine in Heaven & on Earth.

It may be difficult for our fickle human minds to comprehend such concepts & Truths, but our weaknesses should not prohibit us from believing God's Word & the necessity for God Himself to pay to secure our salvation (this is His love demonstrated) - no other sacrifice would do - not even a special created human being or a specially prepared animal. If the people of His day understood it & the apostles & early Church believed it, then where & how did we go wrong by rejecting His Deity?

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD = JESUS

OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECY OF PROPET ISAIAH

SHEDDING OF BLOOD FOR REMISSION OF SINS

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10 - Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:11 - I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

NEW TESTAMENT - OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECY FULFILLED

JESUS SHED BLOOD, DIED ON THE CROSS, RISEN FROM THE DEAD, ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 - The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Colossians 1:15 - 22 - Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist