Unfortunately I missed parts two and three of your posts!
I did get the original question which I believe "Are the Apostles and part of the body of Christ?"
I believe Ronald W began a good answer to that question when he posted Ephesians 1:22-23.
Also Peter being the little pebble of which come from the foundation/Cornerstone in which the Church is built.
Also the baptism of the Holyspirit putting all of the new covenant into one body is hinted in John 17:16-23.
Is there a Gospel of the kingdom? Yes, I believe Jesus clearly teaches that!
I believe he taught that to his disciples going after the lost sheep of Israel during Jesus earthly ministry under the old covenant.
I believe after the crucifixion and resurrection and giving of the Spirit the "now Apostles" were commissioned to take the Gospel to the world!
Paul to the Gentiles and the rest primarily to Israel!
Is there future promises to be fulfilled to "The house of Israel? Absolutely!
The bible clearly teaches that!
Is there two people of God in the Bible? Absolutely! The bible clearly teaches that!
You don't have to hammer away on these points! Most people here on this site know and believe that!
We may part in some of these points but most
come to the conclusion of these truths though we may not agree on certain details.
As for hermeneutics.
Hermeneutics is how scripture is interpreted! NOT how doctrine is explained!
Good hermeneutics is interpreting scripture and letting the outcome form the doctrine which hangs on a solid interpretation of the word of God.
Which I believe you have!
Good hermeneutics is NOT a convenient spiritualization of the text to form at viewpoint or doctrine.
The doctrine of the kingdom doctrine have its climax in the scriptures describing the Millennium and its found throughout scripture. Especially the OT scriptures!
Try collaborating them and watch some hermeneutics fall apart!
Just wanted to share these precious scriptures with you as a reminder of the "Mighty God We Serve!"
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
1 John 5:2
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."
Hello Cordellwbeesr, just to share with you my understanding of the relationship between God the Father and Jesus His Son. And to state, this is one of those impossible 'concepts' to understand, simply because we can only (and rightly) read and understand such things based on our ability with human limitatons. Many have tried to illustrate this 'strange' relationship using earthly imagery, such as using the three aspects of the sun or an egg, but even these fail to correctly show us the Truth of divine things.
What Jesus Himself declared to us should be strongly regarded; verses such as John 16:27,28 (Jesus came out from God - out from God's Being); John 17:5 (Jesus had all of God's Glory from the beginning); and John 1:1-14 (God took His Word and gave it flesh; and this was for the purpose of God's Love being shown in offering the perfect & only Sacrifice that could atone for our sins). And there are many other Scriptures that others have given you, which should show us that this Jesus was not just an ordinary human being born with human parents in sin, but was indeed the "second man, the Lord from Heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47) and also called the "last Adam, a quickening (life-giving) spirit" ( 1 Corinthians 15:45).
Yes, Jesus came forth from the Person of God and given flesh for the purpose of being the only Sacrifice that could redeem us back to God. So how does Jesus have "free will" or even "prays to God". Remember, God gave His Word to be made human, so as a Human, Jesus encountered everything we have to face in life, and as a Human, the Glory He had ( John 17:5) had to be laid aside so that He could be like us, suffer and die (for God cannot die); see Philippians 2:5-11 (He was God's equal, He emptied Himself (Gk. kenosis) & took on humanity. Jesus now became God's Son in His Humanity, so He had free will and as a Son prayed to His Father. How can God pray to God, is often asked? These verses quoted should help you in knowing this Truth. GBU.
Brother Jesse has provided Scriptures to consider on this matter. I could offer Scriptures that would debate these points, but that would not answer your questions. This doctrine originated in 325 A.D. and was expanded over the next 150 years or so. You need to pray and study for your own conscience.
The majority support this doctrine, and some believe it is essential to be a Christian. Jesus is our Lord, and He gave His life to pay the penalty for sin so that we, through Him, can be reconciled to God. The wages of sin are death, Romans 6:23. Jesus' death on the cross paid this price.
Jesus had His own will, but was obedient and did the will of the Father, John 14:31, Luke 22:42, John 5:30, John 17:16, John 12:49.
The Chalcedonian Creed A.D. 451 states, "Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, in confusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of nature's being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved." Does Scripture support this?
God alone possesses immortality, 1 Timothy 6:16. Our faith rests on the death and resurrection of Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 1 Corinthians 15:12-17. God cannot die. Jesus was tempted in the same ways we are, Hebrews 4:14-16. God cannot be tempted, James 1:13.
The Bible will answer all questions we have if we are ready to receive the answer, Matthew 7:7, James 1:5, with prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit-not man.
If your "battle" is with believing that Jesus is God, may I suggest the following scriptures for your consideration:
Genesis 1:1 along with John 1:1-3, Revelation 19:13, Colossians 1:15-17, Matthew 1:23, John 10:30, John 14:9, Mark 2:5-7, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, Philippians 2:5-7, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:8, John 5:18, 1 John 5:20, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, Acts 10:25-26, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:3, Revelation 22:13, Micah 5:2, John 17:5, John 1:14. There are more, but these should suffice.
You mention that "Christians say that there is no separation between Christ and God," and that the bible shows otherwise. Jesus said I and my Father are one, and He also said that if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. This may not mean anything to you, but in the book of Hebrews, Jesus is described as the APOUGASMA (the out beam) of God's glory, God projecting Himself through the time/space factor in the person of Christ. Jesus Christ, being God, was never separated from the source. This is why Jesus can say if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.
The best example I can give would be taking a flashlight in a dark room and shining it on a wall. The flashlight is the source, and the light is projected on the wall from the source. There is no separation unless the flashlight is turned off. Now, imagine the flashlight being God, and the light shining on the wall is Jesus, again, no separation. Jesus is said to be the true light which came down from heaven, the APOUGASMA of God.
If you are sincerely struggling with the deity of Jesus Christ (Him being God), I hope these scriptures I've provided might help. Also, if you would like, I can share my personal understanding on Matthew 26:39 and Luke 22:42 and why Christ would ask this.
If I may ask, are you a Christian? If so, who do you say Jesus is?
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. ( Luke 10:21).
We don't often see Jesus rejoicing like this as much of the time if He wasn't rebuking the Disciples He was teaching them. This was a rare moment when we see evangelism; in this case when the 70 were sent out. It is a sobering thought that we don't know how many of these would remain to the end once they got wind of the crucifixion coming near and the increasing opposition from the Pharisees.
I always say that there has to be a balance; and what we can learn from being a seasoned believer is not to let the salt become dull. It is always good to see new believers and their excitement in reaching the lost; but someone truly in the faith won't stop with those efforts after say 6 months or a year. Now situations in life can change; as it was for me taking care of my parents where I was restricted; and moved back to my hometown. I am speaking to myself here as well as I often pass out tracts due to duty rather than rejoicing as I should. We may have learned the hard lessons in life and sadly that involves many these days who have walked away from God; or worse apostatized and continue in the churches. Nonetheless; let us observe what made Jesus rejoice and realize that the focus here was not only on those evangelized but the Disciples themselves who discovered the power over the forces of the evil one. This was a brief moment before persecution and opposition would change course of open extensive evangelism and be centered on warnings about the end times and preparing the Disciples for His departure. We also need to realize that at least a third of the N.T. is focused on the last week of His life in the Gospels.
We are to be in the world but not of it ( John 17:26-etal)
Another aspect of the eternal purpose of God is that the Father, in love, gave to Jesus a people who Jesus' redeems and reconciles to the Godhead.
In truth God, by the will and decree of the Father, is pursuing with omnipotent delight a worldwide purpose of gathering a people for his name, which is Jesus, from every tribe and language and nation ( Revelation 5:9; 7:9). He has an inexhaustible enthusiasm for the fame of his Son among the nations.
1Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The ones who are given to the Son are the believers since they will come to Christ ( John 6:37), that Jesus will lose none of them ( John 6:39), will not be snatched out of Christ's hand ( John 10:29), will have eternal life ( John 17:2), and will be with Christ ( John 17:24). Therefore, we must conclude that the ones given to the Son are the Christians, the elect. They are the ones chosen for salvation ( 2 Thess. 2:13) and it is those whom Jesus came to redeem. Furthermore, since Jesus cannot fail to do the will of the Father, those who are given to the Son by the Father cannot be lost. Otherwise, Jesus will have failed to do the will of the Father.
The Father sent His Son, the Word, into the world in human flesh, to save, redeem (as a kinsman redeemer), and glorify a people chosen from humanity to the praise of the glory and grace of God in Christ. The Father calls Jesus His Beloved Son audibly in several places in the gospels. The Father, in love, decreed that all that would be done to accomplish His eternal purpose would be accomplished by the son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit within time and history, even into eternity.
Everything in and about creation is for the outpouring expression of His glory. God's sovereignty, power and will ensures that all things work to make known His glory. Because of these aspects of God's Being, His purpose cannot fail, it will be completed in just the way that He willed and decreed. His glory will permeate creation.
And, another aspect of the glory of God is that He purposed to receive praise for this Divine Glory from those He elected and redeemed in His Son, Jesus. We, His redeemed, along with the elect angels will forever offer up praise to God for the glory of all His works.
The other ultimate purpose of God in creating is for Christ to gather together in Christ all things, uniting heaven and earth as we see in Rev. 21:3, that all whom God elected-angels and saints will be one in Christ as He is one with the Father. John 17:10, 19-23.
God's overflowing grace and love is poured out upon the saints and angels whom He elected in eternity past because He willed and purposed for the elected beings to share in the glory and life of God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
What an outstanding privilege and inheritance!
Col. 1:12-20 speaks of the pre-eminence of Jesus, who made all things and all things created are FOR Him; that God's son is before all things, not only that He existed before creation, but also that in position of greatness and exultation and glory, Jesus is pre-eminent and all things consist in Him. (Vs, 15-18)
Verse 19-20 sums this up with by the cross and the shedding of His blood, Jesus has reconciled all things unto Himself, both in heaven and in earth-that is all the elect angels and saints, and all the physical universe which was corrupted by man's sin and heaven which remained and always is uncorrupted by sin. This reconciliation and making of the corrupted uncorrupted (at the consummation of Jesus' return in glory) establishes an eternal peace between God and that which was redeemed.
They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable. ( Psalm 82:5).
For the believer; the opposite is the case as 1 John 1:5 states in "Him there is no darkness at all." These two verses along with similar cross references summarizes the state of the world vs those who know the Lord and hence are in the world but not of it ( John 17:16). In a broader sense it also defines those who are trapped in this world system and can't see beyond it and those who are "rapture ready" and will be delivered soon; that are currently "seated in heavenly places" according to Ephesians 2:6.
Isaiah 8:22 shows the condition of those left behind in the Tribulation: And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness. At that time some will cry out to God and be heard; others not. We can look to God's chosen people in Exodus 2:23; many passages in Psalms; etc. but we are warned ( Micah 3:4).
Jeremiah 7:16 even shows a passage where the Prophet was not to pray for His own people as judgment was set forth; and the Tribulation will also be with judgments already predetermined according to the seal; trumpet and vial judgments decided in the Divine council. Nonetheless, it will bring forth a "countless multitude" according to Revelation 7:9 and the complete fulfillment of Joel 2 started at Pentecost with many "signs and wonders" on the earth as well as dreams and visions coming to men and women everywhere.
Again; Daniel reminds us in the 12th chapter that only the wise will understand; not the wicked ( Daniel 12:10). We can only work now to fulfill the Great Commission and "occupy until He comes" ( Luke 19:13) but once the Rapture occurs the "gig" is up as it were; and men will have to be given strong delusion by God because of their love for evil ( 2 Thess. 2:11). Let us preach the truth and love God with our whole heart; mind and soul dutifly.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Should we not consider other verses, John 17:11, John 17:20-23, John 14:28. These verses, Numbers 23:19, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, and 1 Peter 1:3. Then, in Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
God wanted to be with His people, He first instructed Moses to build a tabernacle, which was symbolic of Jesus. Jesus was born without sin, not by man but of the seed of a woman whose Father was God. God could dwell in Him. Like the tabernacle, Jesus was holy, not defiled. Jesus became the light of the world, the Shekinah Glory manifested in Him and God again dwelt with man in the flesh of Jesus, to me that is John 1:14.
I do thank you for your reply, and I hope and pray I do not offend anyone who reads what I post; our discussions should only inspire us to study, not to win or demean, if so, we all lose.
I will stop here; I do not want to get ahead of Jesse's work in Revelation. You are always welcome to reply to me GiGi.
Hello Dewayneelsied2024. You'll find that reference in Zechariah 11:12,13. However, this reference doesn't specifically name Jesus, but this account of the prophet Zechariah looks ahead, not only to Israel as they were then, but what they would (or, could) be under their Messiah.
Here we read that Zechariah stands as the 'good shepherd', even as a shepherd who carries his two staves (an old plural for 'staffs') one for guiding & counting the sheep and the other for pulling in straying sheep, the prophet calls these staves, "Beauty and Bands". Some (v11, "the poor of the flock") received his message, but most refused to believe and so Zechariah asked for his wages, which was "thirty pieces of silver", which was the price of a slave. And this money, the LORD commanded the prophet to cast to the potter "in the house of the LORD", even as Judas would finally do in his betrayal of Jesus. The staves which once represented God's favor & delight ("Beauty") and binding together in Union ("Bands") of Israel and Judah, were both broken by the prophet showing their future rejection of God & His Christ. But those in Jesus, of both Israel & Gentiles, would become one & restored into intimate fellowship with God once again ( Galatians 3:28; John 17:20,21). Just thought to add a little more to help understand that prophetical Word from God through Zechariah.
I would like to ask for prayer - to be one with Christ, to have a relationship with Him as it says in John 16:24-33 and John 17:17, and to have the mind of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 2:16).
Luke 22:31-32 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Ugh. Next to the sufferings of Christ on the cross this may be the hardest scripture to take in. Whew.
Other than Job; there are no other accounts where such an event of permission to attack a saint by Satan himself is mentioned; although there are other occasions when clearly deception was given to the false prophets and collateral damage likely ensued with some of the plagues when David sinned that God allowed but the enemy no doubt wouldn't object to to say the least.
This is savage; there are no minced words here. Peter had been warned previously; I believe in Matthew 16:23 how wishing to escape death for the Messiah was a Satanically inspired comment. Now; Peter himself though his own fear and weakness would buckle to the pressure and deny Christ to save his own skin. Now we do observe that all the other Disciples also ran off; but they didn't have the audacity to make such a statement that they were ready to die for Him ( John 13:37).
Jesus knew that eventually he would be "converted" and strengthen his brothers; that looking ahead to Pentecost no doubt. There were further admonitions at that point as to the veracity and strength of Peter's love at that point which prophecy about Peter's own death to come.
We have the hard truth here that apparently Jesus granted Satan's request. John 18:8-9 showed prophetically that for the time being the disciples were not to be arrested and killed based on John 17:12 which had just been said before this. This is the only time I know of that Jesus referred to any New Testament statement as a prophetic fulfillment; but Peter should have known His prayers would be answered; as well as the promises for him to be the rock ( Matt. 16:18) of the church.
It says this, speaking of the wisdom of God, not about Jesus being only an idea in God's mind before creation.
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"
You deny the preexistence of Jesus as God because you refuse to believe all the verses in Scripture that indicate that He is God and therefore is eternal.
John 17:5 clearly speaks of Jesus having shared glory with the Father eternally before creation, but this does not fit your theology of God being only one person. But these Scriptures refute this view.
Thanks for posting this series on the Last Supper Discourse.
In Part 2 you said several ideas that I don't find supported by the text or the teachings of Scripture concerning Jesus Christ.
In the passage that speaks of "giving eternal life" it states that Jesus was given power and authority by the Father AND that "he" (Jesus) gives eternal life. It is true that it is God who gives eternal life, but Scripture states clearly that both the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ give eternal life --- John 10:28; 1 John 5:11-13; 20; John 6:27, 54; 1 John 1:2.
John 17:2
"even as You (the Father) gave Him (Jesus, the Son)authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (the Father) have given Him (Jesus), He (Jesus)may give eternal life."
When we look at the truth of this verse it clearly states that Jesus give eternal life to all the Father gives Him.
To say of this verse that it is the Father who gives life is not exegeting this verse properly and it diminishes the deity of Jesus.
Also, you state that it was through the Holy Spirit that Jesus knew the Father's will and what to say. But this is not what Scriptures say. In John 14:31 it says that Jesus does all that the Father commands Him (Jesus) to do. No mention of the Holy Spirit here. John 5:19 says that Jesus does all that He sees the Father do. So He knows what the Father's will is and what God is says and does through His own divinity and not through the Holy Spirit.
In His human nature, Jesus relied on the Holy Spirit to be obedient to the Father, but His divinity, being unified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, knew all the will of God, all that the Father does, all that the Father says.
John 10:15 says that "even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
To speak as though Jesus needed the Holy Spirit to know what He was to do or say denies His divinity and oneness with the Father. See part 2
All pre-existed in the mind, thoughts, reason, and doctrine of our God the Father, the definition of logos. Revelation 3:14, the beginning of the creation of God, the starting point, the predetermined position of authority that God would give to His Son at the point in time that God planned before creation.
Jesus understood all the Scriptures that foretold the glory destined for Him in the mind of God the Father before creation. God's thoughts and plans began with Jesus, who became the tabernacle of God in flesh on earth. Through Him, eternal life can be bestowed upon all who believe in Him. Every word Jesus spoke was God's word: John 7:15-16, John 12:49, John 14:24.
How should we understand verse 3? Jesus, in prayer to the Father, states that eternal life is dependent on knowing the Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Messiah whom God sent.
Jesus knew who He was. He said in John 20:17, He had a Father and a God. Jesus is praying to His Father, He had no power of himself; all he did and said was the Father working in him. Jesus perfectly submitted to God's will by choice and obedience; the glory Jesus was praying for was yet to be realized, only in the knowledge He had from Scripture and the Holy Spirit He was anointed with, without measure of what it would be.
We must confess Jesus is the Son of God.
I am sorry for this long post; read it, study it, or ignore it. I love you guys.
Hebrews 4:3 references Psalm 95, which describes the Israelites' journey with Moses through the wilderness, enduring dunes, rocky paths, and scarce food and water. Those who did not remain faithful, trusting in God's promise, did not enter God's rest. This passage stresses faith and the rest God has promised to those who, in faith, overcome the trials of this life filled with challenges, temptations, and struggles.
Revelation 3:5 shows us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot earn our salvation through our actions; rather, this rest is dependent on accepting the grace and redemption offered in Christ, works that were finished from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-8 states that all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This time is still to come; only true believers will be able to resist this hour of temptation that is foretold in Revelation 3:10. We see this same language in the concept that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.
The challenge and reward are found in Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 13:9-10, "He who has ears, let him hear." We can read and study the Bible without grasping the truth of its message for different reasons, truth comes from prayer. Our ears are connected to our eyes; if we cannot hear, we are also blind.
We have these verses to consider.
Before being ordained, Jeremiah 1:5, Acts 13:48, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 1:15
The foreknowledge of God, Acts 2:23, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:26-27, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20
Trust and dependence on the Son of God, believing in His sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection, Romans 5:8-10. Titus 1:2 states that God has promised eternal life to us from before creation, but it is our future hope in Jesus through faith, as seen in Romans 1:16. This hope has been established for us in Jesus before time; this hope is eternal life. It is not seen or enjoyed now; that is not hope, Romans 8:24-25.
Is Jesus praying for just the disciples or also future believers? This was determined before the foundation of the world, as we see in John 14:3, and Paul confirms it in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. We will see the glory of Christ that the Father has given Him when He returns to establish the kingdom.
Ephesians 1:4 tells us that God chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, and salvation was part of God's plan. The word " chose, " from the Greek word eklego, means to pick out for oneself, to choose, elect, or select. God's plan and purpose for humanity was for us to have eternal life in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:19-20 explains that Jesus, through His obedience to the Father and His sinless life as a lamb without blemish and spot, shed His blood for us. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The word " foreordained " is derived from the Greek word proginosko, meaning to know beforehand, representing the foreknowledge of God, a plan manifested in the last times for us. Various verses refer to the foundation of the world, meaning from the creation of the earth and humanity.
Matthew 25:34 speaks of the glory in God's plan, in the mind of God, encompassing all things from beginning to end, something we as humans cannot fully comprehend. We see the culmination of this verse in Revelation 20:11-15.
5, And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
On the surface, it can be seen that Jesus is asking to be glorified by the Father with the glory He shared before creation, indicating the eternal nature of Christ, who existed before time began. Does Philippians 2:6-8 justify this request? Jesus, for His obedient earthly ministry, He rightfully deserves?
Does all of Scripture agree with this? We have these verses with similar wording. Were the things in these verses physically present before the world was? Were they all in the mind, thoughts, and the plan of God? Can we say some were and some were not? Are they confirmation of God's eternal plan and foreknowledge?
Verses that say before the world was, before the world, and before the foundation of the world. God's foreknowledge, purpose, and plan were before creation.
1 Corinthians 2:7 This wisdom is the gospel of Jesus Christ, hidden in the thoughts of God from before the world was. It was ordained from before the world that would be revealed in the fullness of time, as stated in Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:26-27. There are hints of it throughout the Old Testament, but hidden from the Gentile world, it is now revealed through the preaching of the apostles who were with Jesus from the beginning of His three-and-a-half-year ministry, and Paul, after the leaders of Jerusalem said no to Jesus being the Messiah and killed Stephen, Acts 7:54-60.
2 Timothy 1:9 Our calling and salvation are given not by anything we have done or can do to earn. It is according to God's grace and for His purpose. This grace, which was given to us in Jesus, is part of God's plan before the world began, as we see in Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 8:28-29.
Salvation through Jesus Christ is available to everyone who accepts it, it is received by faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God alone.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jesus tells His Father He has finished the work that the Father gave Him to do. Jesus was obedient to the Father in everything; He lived a life doing the Father's will, not His own, John 4:34, John 5:30. Jesus glorified His Father by living a sinless life, fulfilling the law, and completed the works of the Father by the Spirit of God, John 14:10.
He manifested His Father's love, goodness, justice, mercy, and truth, as Jesus in John 14:7-11 told the disciples, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, I am in the Father, and the Father in me, the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Later in this chapter, Jesus says more than once, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us', "that they may be one, even as we are one".
Jesus knows He must face His crucifixion, and stating that He has glorified the Father and fulfilled His work is not a boast but a reflection of His love and dedication to God's purpose. Jesus prays this prayer in front of His disciples to demonstrate the importance of obedience, emphasizing that all we do is to glorify God.
2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jesus confirms that the Father has given Him power over all humanity and that, through His redemptive work, God grants eternal life to all those whom He has given to Jesus. Jesus understood the Scriptures, including what had been said about Him and what He would do and suffer, as illustrated in Isaiah 53:1-12. This indicates that all of humanity has been entrusted to
Christ, beginning with the lost sheep of Israel, and that anyone who believes in Jesus will not perish but will have eternal life.
This was God's plan to make salvation possible, man had to pay the penalty, the only way humanity can be reconciled to Him, as indicated in John 14:6. The word " power " is derived from the Greek word " exousia, " meaning authority. Through the Spirit of God, He granted His power and authority to Jesus Christ over humanity, John 3:34-35, John 5:26-27, Acts 10:38.
The Holy Spirit enabled Jesus to speak the words the Father had given him to speak, John 14:24. After God raised Jesus from the dead, the Father placed all heaven and earth under Jesus, Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23, and Philippians 2:9-11.
Jesus's mission was to do the will of the Father. In John 5:19-23, Jesus says He can do nothing by Himself, same in John 5:30. God has committed all judgment unto the Son. The word committed is the Greek word didmi, to give, to grant, to bestow; it was deliberately transferred to Jesus to do the will of the Father who sent Him.
This highlights God's plan being fulfilled, emphasizing Jesus' role as the Messiah appointed and given authority by the Father.
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jesus has come to the end of His earthly mission, the time of His crucifixion has come near, John 13:1. Jesus said, "glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:" Jesus has been obedient to His Father and has finished what He was sent to do, except for the last hours of left in Passover day when He will suffer and die.
The words that Jesus spoke are written in John 13 through John 16; all five chapters were written about while they were in the room where they had the Last Supper. He lifted His eyes to heaven. Jesus was praying to the Father, and the disciples were there. Judas left just before Jesus started this prayer. Jesus is in the upper room just before going to the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus prays for Himself, his disciples, and all future believers.
His hour had come, as He said in Luke 22:15-16, He desired to eat this Passover before He suffered, but He would not be there to eat it. And in John 12:23, He said the hour had come that He should be glorified. In John 7:33-39, Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that those who believe in Him will receive, but it has not been given yet because Jesus was not yet glorified/resurrected. God glorified Jesus when He raised Jesus from the dead in His glorified body. We will also be raised in a body fashioned like His, Philippians 3:21.
Jesus knew what He would have to endure later that day: death on the cross. In this prayer, we can see Jesus' love for his disciples and his desire for them to remain in faith and purpose. His emotions in this prayer intensified in the garden, as reflected in Matthew 26:38-43 and Luke 22:40-44. All that Jesus did throughout His mission on earth was to glorify God, showing us the importance of glorifying God in all our actions.
Hi Jingledue. Since this Site has temporarily altered how responses to questions are viewed, I'll quote a part of your question so you know that this is directed to it. "As a Christian, is it wrong to still consider myself a sinner saved by grace?"
No, it is not wrong to believe that your are "a sinner saved by grace", even though this phrase is not used in the Bible. As you know, in the Church today we use phrases or words to describe a Truth that is evident in the Bible but not the actual words used. Ephesians 2:8,9 is the Scripture that reflects the phrase "a sinner saved by grace". We could say the same about the Triune Nature of God (otherwise, referred to as the Trinity): where there are many verses that describe this profound Nature yet not using that word, Trinity (e.g. Matthew 28:19; John 17:3-5; 1 John 1:1-3; etc.). We use the word 'Rapture', which is derived from the Latin form from the Greek, which means 'to seize or to snatch' (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). So, there's nothing wrong with using words or phrases not found in the Bible, as long as it correctly & clearly expresses a biblical Truth. But if someone is against using such words or phrases, then I would be equally comfortable in using the direct biblical quotations in lieu.
But the main point of Ephesians 2:8,9 is that our salvation is all of God's Grace & Mercy afforded us - nothing we have done or ever can do could replace or even complement God's Work for us and in us. It is truly God's Gift to us - and a gift cannot be received in exchange for something else, or else it's no longer a gift.
I thought about starting a new series of postings describing Christ as He is in the Old Testament and New (as many like to say concealed and then revealed). There is a certain broad base of topics especially in regard to the law (OT) and grace (NT). As with many theological doctrines there may be a general progress historically and according to God's plans with the Old and New Covenants; etal.; nonetheless mutual exclusivity can't be a viable option despite how tempting it may be to draw what seems like an easy conclusion. This is because Christ is the fullness of the law and thus Matthew 5:18 stands firm. The person of Christ is the essence of the summation of all the attributes of God ( Colossians 2:9). As to His earthly ministry and humbling Himself to live out a brief existence in time and space to accomplish God's purpose as the atonement for our sins certainly encompasses many prophetic promises and basically sums all of the Bible as the end of all things is preached by the Messiah and the New Testament ends shortly after the Resurrection discussing all things into eternity we need to know. Nonethless of course His eternal presence and glory as stated in Revelation 1 is a foreshadowing of how we all shall behold Him in all His splendor soon.
In regard to that thought it becomes clear to me that much of what has gone wrong with the Internet in particular is that Christ Himself as He truly is often seems to be sidetracked with all the predictions; dreams; visions and novel interpretations of often subjective experiences people have. If we aren't as John in Revelation 1; or the other prophets in falling flat on our faces with any story given about such matters then it is pretty clear they are spurious. Our obsession has to be on Him not any other agenda. John 17:3 comes close to the Navigators motto to "know Him and make Him known".
I pray this helps some people see more clearly into who He is and His manifold ways.
The Scriptures clearly say that God will not share His glory with another (Is. 42:8) but in John 17:5 the Father did and does share His divine glory with Jesus, who is also God.
Many places in Scripture state that God created all that there is, AND that Jesus created all that there is ( John 1:1-3; John 1:10; Col. 1:16; 1 Cor. 8:6) Only a Being can create, not an idea or a plan.
And lastly, Jesus is worshipped as God in Rev. along with the Father. ( Rev. 5:1-14; 19:1-8).
Jesus is our Maker, Creator, Lord, and God. He always has been God, not an idea or plan in the mind of God. He is forever the Son of God because John 1:18 in the Greek call Him the only begotten God who has seen God (the Father) and whom declares who God is as the eternal Word.
What one believes about the eternal existence and deity of Jesus will frame how one views the gospel, His sacrifice, our atonement, and that salvation truly comes only from God in Christ alone. Not from one who is only human who lived a sinless life, as Unitarians profess. Jesus, from everlasting to everlasting is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
God is the only Savior (Is. 43:11; Hos. 13:4; Jude 1:25).
Fuji,
May God bless you with true understanding of how Scriptures answer your two questions.
Heb. 1:6 God instructed the angels to worship the Son.
The apostles worshipped Jesus ( Mt. 28:9; Mt. 14:33;. Jn. 20:28)
And the man born blind worshipped Jesus ( Jn. 9:38
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
Hi Fuji. Thank you for your questions & for seriously considering this very important doctrine. Bro Giannis has certainly answered your questions very well, and if I might add more for you to consider.
Once we can understand such doctrines (i.e. as far as we humanly can understand, since the deep matters of God will always be mysterious to us in this life), then we can piece together the information the Bible gives us, to help us form an understanding & belief. True, we must confess that we cannot know everything about such a subject, such as the one addressed, but from what we're given, without forcefully altering its intended meaning, we can safely believe, before God Who judges righteously, that He would not hold us accountable for any misunderstanding.
To that end, we have already shared that Jesus was already in Heaven, whether in His references to being in 'existence' before Abraham ( John 8:58), or Paul's reference to His creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17), or even Jesus' Own prayer to His Father ( John 17:5); and how true this prayer must have been, for would Jesus even try to hoodwink His Father on such a matter? So when we come to the Word & believe in every word given to us, as I know you do, then what are we to do with it & how are we to believe & accept the Scriptures. Unfortunately, we very often let human reasoning & logic come to the fore (which of course, is very natural), & so reading the Scriptures can be colored by that intrusion. Onto Page 2.
Unfortunately I missed parts two and three of your posts!
I did get the original question which I believe "Are the Apostles and part of the body of Christ?"
I believe Ronald W began a good answer to that question when he posted Ephesians 1:22-23.
Also Peter being the little pebble of which come from the foundation/Cornerstone in which the Church is built.
Also the baptism of the Holyspirit putting all of the new covenant into one body is hinted in John 17:16-23.
Is there a Gospel of the kingdom? Yes, I believe Jesus clearly teaches that!
I believe he taught that to his disciples going after the lost sheep of Israel during Jesus earthly ministry under the old covenant.
I believe after the crucifixion and resurrection and giving of the Spirit the "now Apostles" were commissioned to take the Gospel to the world!
Paul to the Gentiles and the rest primarily to Israel!
Is there future promises to be fulfilled to "The house of Israel? Absolutely!
The bible clearly teaches that!
Is there two people of God in the Bible? Absolutely! The bible clearly teaches that!
You don't have to hammer away on these points! Most people here on this site know and believe that!
We may part in some of these points but most
come to the conclusion of these truths though we may not agree on certain details.
As for hermeneutics.
Hermeneutics is how scripture is interpreted! NOT how doctrine is explained!
Good hermeneutics is interpreting scripture and letting the outcome form the doctrine which hangs on a solid interpretation of the word of God.
Which I believe you have!
Good hermeneutics is NOT a convenient spiritualization of the text to form at viewpoint or doctrine.
The doctrine of the kingdom doctrine have its climax in the scriptures describing the Millennium and its found throughout scripture. Especially the OT scriptures!
Try collaborating them and watch some hermeneutics fall apart!
Thanks Brother and God bless!!
"The same Spirit that baptized all the saints also baptized the Apostles in that same body of believers!
Your post reminds me of John 17:17-23.
I unfortunately missed most of this thread!
God bless you.
Just wanted to share these precious scriptures with you as a reminder of the "Mighty God We Serve!"
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
1 John 5:2
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."
Amen! To God be the Glory!
What Jesus Himself declared to us should be strongly regarded; verses such as John 16:27,28 (Jesus came out from God - out from God's Being); John 17:5 (Jesus had all of God's Glory from the beginning); and John 1:1-14 (God took His Word and gave it flesh; and this was for the purpose of God's Love being shown in offering the perfect & only Sacrifice that could atone for our sins). And there are many other Scriptures that others have given you, which should show us that this Jesus was not just an ordinary human being born with human parents in sin, but was indeed the "second man, the Lord from Heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47) and also called the "last Adam, a quickening (life-giving) spirit" ( 1 Corinthians 15:45).
Yes, Jesus came forth from the Person of God and given flesh for the purpose of being the only Sacrifice that could redeem us back to God. So how does Jesus have "free will" or even "prays to God". Remember, God gave His Word to be made human, so as a Human, Jesus encountered everything we have to face in life, and as a Human, the Glory He had ( John 17:5) had to be laid aside so that He could be like us, suffer and die (for God cannot die); see Philippians 2:5-11 (He was God's equal, He emptied Himself (Gk. kenosis) & took on humanity. Jesus now became God's Son in His Humanity, so He had free will and as a Son prayed to His Father. How can God pray to God, is often asked? These verses quoted should help you in knowing this Truth. GBU.
a very clear picture can be drawn out of those scriptures!
God said he will not give his glory to another here in Isaiah 42:8
"I am the lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
However Immanuel! came out of the bosom of the Father and was manifested in the flesh!!
Matthew 1:23.
John 1:18.
1 Timothy 3:16.
He shared that Glory!
John 17:5 "and now, o father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Undeniably God!!
Blessings!
Brother Jesse has provided Scriptures to consider on this matter. I could offer Scriptures that would debate these points, but that would not answer your questions. This doctrine originated in 325 A.D. and was expanded over the next 150 years or so. You need to pray and study for your own conscience.
The majority support this doctrine, and some believe it is essential to be a Christian. Jesus is our Lord, and He gave His life to pay the penalty for sin so that we, through Him, can be reconciled to God. The wages of sin are death, Romans 6:23. Jesus' death on the cross paid this price.
Jesus had His own will, but was obedient and did the will of the Father, John 14:31, Luke 22:42, John 5:30, John 17:16, John 12:49.
The Chalcedonian Creed A.D. 451 states, "Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, in confusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of nature's being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved." Does Scripture support this?
God alone possesses immortality, 1 Timothy 6:16. Our faith rests on the death and resurrection of Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 1 Corinthians 15:12-17. God cannot die. Jesus was tempted in the same ways we are, Hebrews 4:14-16. God cannot be tempted, James 1:13.
The Bible will answer all questions we have if we are ready to receive the answer, Matthew 7:7, James 1:5, with prayer and the guidance of the Holy Spirit-not man.
God bless your study,
RLW
If your "battle" is with believing that Jesus is God, may I suggest the following scriptures for your consideration:
Genesis 1:1 along with John 1:1-3, Revelation 19:13, Colossians 1:15-17, Matthew 1:23, John 10:30, John 14:9, Mark 2:5-7, John 8:58, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, Philippians 2:5-7, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:8, John 5:18, 1 John 5:20, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, Acts 10:25-26, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:3, Revelation 22:13, Micah 5:2, John 17:5, John 1:14. There are more, but these should suffice.
You mention that "Christians say that there is no separation between Christ and God," and that the bible shows otherwise. Jesus said I and my Father are one, and He also said that if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. This may not mean anything to you, but in the book of Hebrews, Jesus is described as the APOUGASMA (the out beam) of God's glory, God projecting Himself through the time/space factor in the person of Christ. Jesus Christ, being God, was never separated from the source. This is why Jesus can say if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.
The best example I can give would be taking a flashlight in a dark room and shining it on a wall. The flashlight is the source, and the light is projected on the wall from the source. There is no separation unless the flashlight is turned off. Now, imagine the flashlight being God, and the light shining on the wall is Jesus, again, no separation. Jesus is said to be the true light which came down from heaven, the APOUGASMA of God.
If you are sincerely struggling with the deity of Jesus Christ (Him being God), I hope these scriptures I've provided might help. Also, if you would like, I can share my personal understanding on Matthew 26:39 and Luke 22:42 and why Christ would ask this.
If I may ask, are you a Christian? If so, who do you say Jesus is?
We don't often see Jesus rejoicing like this as much of the time if He wasn't rebuking the Disciples He was teaching them. This was a rare moment when we see evangelism; in this case when the 70 were sent out. It is a sobering thought that we don't know how many of these would remain to the end once they got wind of the crucifixion coming near and the increasing opposition from the Pharisees.
I always say that there has to be a balance; and what we can learn from being a seasoned believer is not to let the salt become dull. It is always good to see new believers and their excitement in reaching the lost; but someone truly in the faith won't stop with those efforts after say 6 months or a year. Now situations in life can change; as it was for me taking care of my parents where I was restricted; and moved back to my hometown. I am speaking to myself here as well as I often pass out tracts due to duty rather than rejoicing as I should. We may have learned the hard lessons in life and sadly that involves many these days who have walked away from God; or worse apostatized and continue in the churches. Nonetheless; let us observe what made Jesus rejoice and realize that the focus here was not only on those evangelized but the Disciples themselves who discovered the power over the forces of the evil one. This was a brief moment before persecution and opposition would change course of open extensive evangelism and be centered on warnings about the end times and preparing the Disciples for His departure. We also need to realize that at least a third of the N.T. is focused on the last week of His life in the Gospels.
We are to be in the world but not of it ( John 17:26-etal)
PT. 4
Another aspect of the eternal purpose of God is that the Father, in love, gave to Jesus a people who Jesus' redeems and reconciles to the Godhead.
In truth God, by the will and decree of the Father, is pursuing with omnipotent delight a worldwide purpose of gathering a people for his name, which is Jesus, from every tribe and language and nation ( Revelation 5:9; 7:9). He has an inexhaustible enthusiasm for the fame of his Son among the nations.
1Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The ones who are given to the Son are the believers since they will come to Christ ( John 6:37), that Jesus will lose none of them ( John 6:39), will not be snatched out of Christ's hand ( John 10:29), will have eternal life ( John 17:2), and will be with Christ ( John 17:24). Therefore, we must conclude that the ones given to the Son are the Christians, the elect. They are the ones chosen for salvation ( 2 Thess. 2:13) and it is those whom Jesus came to redeem. Furthermore, since Jesus cannot fail to do the will of the Father, those who are given to the Son by the Father cannot be lost. Otherwise, Jesus will have failed to do the will of the Father.
The Father sent His Son, the Word, into the world in human flesh, to save, redeem (as a kinsman redeemer), and glorify a people chosen from humanity to the praise of the glory and grace of God in Christ. The Father calls Jesus His Beloved Son audibly in several places in the gospels. The Father, in love, decreed that all that would be done to accomplish His eternal purpose would be accomplished by the son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit within time and history, even into eternity.
See Pt. 5
THE GLORY OF GOD
Everything in and about creation is for the outpouring expression of His glory. God's sovereignty, power and will ensures that all things work to make known His glory. Because of these aspects of God's Being, His purpose cannot fail, it will be completed in just the way that He willed and decreed. His glory will permeate creation.
And, another aspect of the glory of God is that He purposed to receive praise for this Divine Glory from those He elected and redeemed in His Son, Jesus. We, His redeemed, along with the elect angels will forever offer up praise to God for the glory of all His works.
The other ultimate purpose of God in creating is for Christ to gather together in Christ all things, uniting heaven and earth as we see in Rev. 21:3, that all whom God elected-angels and saints will be one in Christ as He is one with the Father. John 17:10, 19-23.
God's overflowing grace and love is poured out upon the saints and angels whom He elected in eternity past because He willed and purposed for the elected beings to share in the glory and life of God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
What an outstanding privilege and inheritance!
Col. 1:12-20 speaks of the pre-eminence of Jesus, who made all things and all things created are FOR Him; that God's son is before all things, not only that He existed before creation, but also that in position of greatness and exultation and glory, Jesus is pre-eminent and all things consist in Him. (Vs, 15-18)
Verse 19-20 sums this up with by the cross and the shedding of His blood, Jesus has reconciled all things unto Himself, both in heaven and in earth-that is all the elect angels and saints, and all the physical universe which was corrupted by man's sin and heaven which remained and always is uncorrupted by sin. This reconciliation and making of the corrupted uncorrupted (at the consummation of Jesus' return in glory) establishes an eternal peace between God and that which was redeemed.
See pt. 3
For the believer; the opposite is the case as 1 John 1:5 states in "Him there is no darkness at all." These two verses along with similar cross references summarizes the state of the world vs those who know the Lord and hence are in the world but not of it ( John 17:16). In a broader sense it also defines those who are trapped in this world system and can't see beyond it and those who are "rapture ready" and will be delivered soon; that are currently "seated in heavenly places" according to Ephesians 2:6.
Isaiah 8:22 shows the condition of those left behind in the Tribulation: And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness. At that time some will cry out to God and be heard; others not. We can look to God's chosen people in Exodus 2:23; many passages in Psalms; etc. but we are warned ( Micah 3:4).
Jeremiah 7:16 even shows a passage where the Prophet was not to pray for His own people as judgment was set forth; and the Tribulation will also be with judgments already predetermined according to the seal; trumpet and vial judgments decided in the Divine council. Nonetheless, it will bring forth a "countless multitude" according to Revelation 7:9 and the complete fulfillment of Joel 2 started at Pentecost with many "signs and wonders" on the earth as well as dreams and visions coming to men and women everywhere.
Again; Daniel reminds us in the 12th chapter that only the wise will understand; not the wicked ( Daniel 12:10). We can only work now to fulfill the Great Commission and "occupy until He comes" ( Luke 19:13) but once the Rapture occurs the "gig" is up as it were; and men will have to be given strong delusion by God because of their love for evil ( 2 Thess. 2:11). Let us preach the truth and love God with our whole heart; mind and soul dutifly.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Should we not consider other verses, John 17:11, John 17:20-23, John 14:28. These verses, Numbers 23:19, John 20:17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, and 1 Peter 1:3. Then, in Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
God wanted to be with His people, He first instructed Moses to build a tabernacle, which was symbolic of Jesus. Jesus was born without sin, not by man but of the seed of a woman whose Father was God. God could dwell in Him. Like the tabernacle, Jesus was holy, not defiled. Jesus became the light of the world, the Shekinah Glory manifested in Him and God again dwelt with man in the flesh of Jesus, to me that is John 1:14.
I do thank you for your reply, and I hope and pray I do not offend anyone who reads what I post; our discussions should only inspire us to study, not to win or demean, if so, we all lose.
I will stop here; I do not want to get ahead of Jesse's work in Revelation. You are always welcome to reply to me GiGi.
God bless,
RLW
Here we read that Zechariah stands as the 'good shepherd', even as a shepherd who carries his two staves (an old plural for 'staffs') one for guiding & counting the sheep and the other for pulling in straying sheep, the prophet calls these staves, "Beauty and Bands". Some (v11, "the poor of the flock") received his message, but most refused to believe and so Zechariah asked for his wages, which was "thirty pieces of silver", which was the price of a slave. And this money, the LORD commanded the prophet to cast to the potter "in the house of the LORD", even as Judas would finally do in his betrayal of Jesus. The staves which once represented God's favor & delight ("Beauty") and binding together in Union ("Bands") of Israel and Judah, were both broken by the prophet showing their future rejection of God & His Christ. But those in Jesus, of both Israel & Gentiles, would become one & restored into intimate fellowship with God once again ( Galatians 3:28; John 17:20,21). Just thought to add a little more to help understand that prophetical Word from God through Zechariah.
Thank you!
Luke 22:31-32 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Ugh. Next to the sufferings of Christ on the cross this may be the hardest scripture to take in. Whew.
Other than Job; there are no other accounts where such an event of permission to attack a saint by Satan himself is mentioned; although there are other occasions when clearly deception was given to the false prophets and collateral damage likely ensued with some of the plagues when David sinned that God allowed but the enemy no doubt wouldn't object to to say the least.
This is savage; there are no minced words here. Peter had been warned previously; I believe in Matthew 16:23 how wishing to escape death for the Messiah was a Satanically inspired comment. Now; Peter himself though his own fear and weakness would buckle to the pressure and deny Christ to save his own skin. Now we do observe that all the other Disciples also ran off; but they didn't have the audacity to make such a statement that they were ready to die for Him ( John 13:37).
Jesus knew that eventually he would be "converted" and strengthen his brothers; that looking ahead to Pentecost no doubt. There were further admonitions at that point as to the veracity and strength of Peter's love at that point which prophecy about Peter's own death to come.
We have the hard truth here that apparently Jesus granted Satan's request. John 18:8-9 showed prophetically that for the time being the disciples were not to be arrested and killed based on John 17:12 which had just been said before this. This is the only time I know of that Jesus referred to any New Testament statement as a prophetic fulfillment; but Peter should have known His prayers would be answered; as well as the promises for him to be the rock ( Matt. 16:18) of the church.
It says this, speaking of the wisdom of God, not about Jesus being only an idea in God's mind before creation.
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"
You deny the preexistence of Jesus as God because you refuse to believe all the verses in Scripture that indicate that He is God and therefore is eternal.
John 17:5 clearly speaks of Jesus having shared glory with the Father eternally before creation, but this does not fit your theology of God being only one person. But these Scriptures refute this view.
Thanks for posting this series on the Last Supper Discourse.
In Part 2 you said several ideas that I don't find supported by the text or the teachings of Scripture concerning Jesus Christ.
In the passage that speaks of "giving eternal life" it states that Jesus was given power and authority by the Father AND that "he" (Jesus) gives eternal life. It is true that it is God who gives eternal life, but Scripture states clearly that both the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ give eternal life --- John 10:28; 1 John 5:11-13; 20; John 6:27, 54; 1 John 1:2.
John 17:2
"even as You (the Father) gave Him (Jesus, the Son)authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (the Father) have given Him (Jesus), He (Jesus)may give eternal life."
When we look at the truth of this verse it clearly states that Jesus give eternal life to all the Father gives Him.
To say of this verse that it is the Father who gives life is not exegeting this verse properly and it diminishes the deity of Jesus.
Also, you state that it was through the Holy Spirit that Jesus knew the Father's will and what to say. But this is not what Scriptures say. In John 14:31 it says that Jesus does all that the Father commands Him (Jesus) to do. No mention of the Holy Spirit here. John 5:19 says that Jesus does all that He sees the Father do. So He knows what the Father's will is and what God is says and does through His own divinity and not through the Holy Spirit.
In His human nature, Jesus relied on the Holy Spirit to be obedient to the Father, but His divinity, being unified with the Father and the Holy Spirit, knew all the will of God, all that the Father does, all that the Father says.
John 10:15 says that "even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
To speak as though Jesus needed the Holy Spirit to know what He was to do or say denies His divinity and oneness with the Father. See part 2
John 17:1-5,
All pre-existed in the mind, thoughts, reason, and doctrine of our God the Father, the definition of logos. Revelation 3:14, the beginning of the creation of God, the starting point, the predetermined position of authority that God would give to His Son at the point in time that God planned before creation.
Jesus understood all the Scriptures that foretold the glory destined for Him in the mind of God the Father before creation. God's thoughts and plans began with Jesus, who became the tabernacle of God in flesh on earth. Through Him, eternal life can be bestowed upon all who believe in Him. Every word Jesus spoke was God's word: John 7:15-16, John 12:49, John 14:24.
How should we understand verse 3? Jesus, in prayer to the Father, states that eternal life is dependent on knowing the Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the Messiah whom God sent.
Jesus knew who He was. He said in John 20:17, He had a Father and a God. Jesus is praying to His Father, He had no power of himself; all he did and said was the Father working in him. Jesus perfectly submitted to God's will by choice and obedience; the glory Jesus was praying for was yet to be realized, only in the knowledge He had from Scripture and the Holy Spirit He was anointed with, without measure of what it would be.
We must confess Jesus is the Son of God.
I am sorry for this long post; read it, study it, or ignore it. I love you guys.
God bless,
RLW
Part 7.
Hebrews 4:3 references Psalm 95, which describes the Israelites' journey with Moses through the wilderness, enduring dunes, rocky paths, and scarce food and water. Those who did not remain faithful, trusting in God's promise, did not enter God's rest. This passage stresses faith and the rest God has promised to those who, in faith, overcome the trials of this life filled with challenges, temptations, and struggles.
Revelation 3:5 shows us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot earn our salvation through our actions; rather, this rest is dependent on accepting the grace and redemption offered in Christ, works that were finished from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:7-8 states that all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This time is still to come; only true believers will be able to resist this hour of temptation that is foretold in Revelation 3:10. We see this same language in the concept that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.
The challenge and reward are found in Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 13:9-10, "He who has ears, let him hear." We can read and study the Bible without grasping the truth of its message for different reasons, truth comes from prayer. Our ears are connected to our eyes; if we cannot hear, we are also blind.
We have these verses to consider.
Before being ordained, Jeremiah 1:5, Acts 13:48, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 1:15
The foreknowledge of God, Acts 2:23, Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:26-27, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20
Predestination, Acts 4:27-28, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:10-12
God's plan.
2 Kings 19:25, Psalm 33:11, Isaiah 14:27, Isaiah 22:11, Isaiah 25:1, Isaiah 37:26, Isaiah 46:10, Jeremiah 29:11.
See last part 8
Part 6
Trust and dependence on the Son of God, believing in His sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection, Romans 5:8-10. Titus 1:2 states that God has promised eternal life to us from before creation, but it is our future hope in Jesus through faith, as seen in Romans 1:16. This hope has been established for us in Jesus before time; this hope is eternal life. It is not seen or enjoyed now; that is not hope, Romans 8:24-25.
Is Jesus praying for just the disciples or also future believers? This was determined before the foundation of the world, as we see in John 14:3, and Paul confirms it in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. We will see the glory of Christ that the Father has given Him when He returns to establish the kingdom.
Ephesians 1:4 tells us that God chose us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, and salvation was part of God's plan. The word " chose, " from the Greek word eklego, means to pick out for oneself, to choose, elect, or select. God's plan and purpose for humanity was for us to have eternal life in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:19-20 explains that Jesus, through His obedience to the Father and His sinless life as a lamb without blemish and spot, shed His blood for us. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The word " foreordained " is derived from the Greek word proginosko, meaning to know beforehand, representing the foreknowledge of God, a plan manifested in the last times for us. Various verses refer to the foundation of the world, meaning from the creation of the earth and humanity.
Matthew 25:34 speaks of the glory in God's plan, in the mind of God, encompassing all things from beginning to end, something we as humans cannot fully comprehend. We see the culmination of this verse in Revelation 20:11-15.
See part 7.
Part 5.
5, And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
On the surface, it can be seen that Jesus is asking to be glorified by the Father with the glory He shared before creation, indicating the eternal nature of Christ, who existed before time began. Does Philippians 2:6-8 justify this request? Jesus, for His obedient earthly ministry, He rightfully deserves?
Does all of Scripture agree with this? We have these verses with similar wording. Were the things in these verses physically present before the world was? Were they all in the mind, thoughts, and the plan of God? Can we say some were and some were not? Are they confirmation of God's eternal plan and foreknowledge?
Verses that say before the world was, before the world, and before the foundation of the world. God's foreknowledge, purpose, and plan were before creation.
1 Corinthians 2:7 This wisdom is the gospel of Jesus Christ, hidden in the thoughts of God from before the world was. It was ordained from before the world that would be revealed in the fullness of time, as stated in Ephesians 1:10 and Colossians 1:26-27. There are hints of it throughout the Old Testament, but hidden from the Gentile world, it is now revealed through the preaching of the apostles who were with Jesus from the beginning of His three-and-a-half-year ministry, and Paul, after the leaders of Jerusalem said no to Jesus being the Messiah and killed Stephen, Acts 7:54-60.
2 Timothy 1:9 Our calling and salvation are given not by anything we have done or can do to earn. It is according to God's grace and for His purpose. This grace, which was given to us in Jesus, is part of God's plan before the world began, as we see in Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 8:28-29.
Salvation through Jesus Christ is available to everyone who accepts it, it is received by faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God alone.
See part 6.
Part 4.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jesus tells His Father He has finished the work that the Father gave Him to do. Jesus was obedient to the Father in everything; He lived a life doing the Father's will, not His own, John 4:34, John 5:30. Jesus glorified His Father by living a sinless life, fulfilling the law, and completed the works of the Father by the Spirit of God, John 14:10.
He manifested His Father's love, goodness, justice, mercy, and truth, as Jesus in John 14:7-11 told the disciples, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father, I am in the Father, and the Father in me, the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Later in this chapter, Jesus says more than once, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us', "that they may be one, even as we are one".
Jesus knows He must face His crucifixion, and stating that He has glorified the Father and fulfilled His work is not a boast but a reflection of His love and dedication to God's purpose. Jesus prays this prayer in front of His disciples to demonstrate the importance of obedience, emphasizing that all we do is to glorify God.
See part 5.
Part 2.
2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jesus confirms that the Father has given Him power over all humanity and that, through His redemptive work, God grants eternal life to all those whom He has given to Jesus. Jesus understood the Scriptures, including what had been said about Him and what He would do and suffer, as illustrated in Isaiah 53:1-12. This indicates that all of humanity has been entrusted to
Christ, beginning with the lost sheep of Israel, and that anyone who believes in Jesus will not perish but will have eternal life.
This was God's plan to make salvation possible, man had to pay the penalty, the only way humanity can be reconciled to Him, as indicated in John 14:6. The word " power " is derived from the Greek word " exousia, " meaning authority. Through the Spirit of God, He granted His power and authority to Jesus Christ over humanity, John 3:34-35, John 5:26-27, Acts 10:38.
The Holy Spirit enabled Jesus to speak the words the Father had given him to speak, John 14:24. After God raised Jesus from the dead, the Father placed all heaven and earth under Jesus, Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23, and Philippians 2:9-11.
Jesus's mission was to do the will of the Father. In John 5:19-23, Jesus says He can do nothing by Himself, same in John 5:30. God has committed all judgment unto the Son. The word committed is the Greek word didmi, to give, to grant, to bestow; it was deliberately transferred to Jesus to do the will of the Father who sent Him.
This highlights God's plan being fulfilled, emphasizing Jesus' role as the Messiah appointed and given authority by the Father.
See part 3.
Part 1
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jesus has come to the end of His earthly mission, the time of His crucifixion has come near, John 13:1. Jesus said, "glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:" Jesus has been obedient to His Father and has finished what He was sent to do, except for the last hours of left in Passover day when He will suffer and die.
The words that Jesus spoke are written in John 13 through John 16; all five chapters were written about while they were in the room where they had the Last Supper. He lifted His eyes to heaven. Jesus was praying to the Father, and the disciples were there. Judas left just before Jesus started this prayer. Jesus is in the upper room just before going to the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus prays for Himself, his disciples, and all future believers.
His hour had come, as He said in Luke 22:15-16, He desired to eat this Passover before He suffered, but He would not be there to eat it. And in John 12:23, He said the hour had come that He should be glorified. In John 7:33-39, Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that those who believe in Him will receive, but it has not been given yet because Jesus was not yet glorified/resurrected. God glorified Jesus when He raised Jesus from the dead in His glorified body. We will also be raised in a body fashioned like His, Philippians 3:21.
Jesus knew what He would have to endure later that day: death on the cross. In this prayer, we can see Jesus' love for his disciples and his desire for them to remain in faith and purpose. His emotions in this prayer intensified in the garden, as reflected in Matthew 26:38-43 and Luke 22:40-44. All that Jesus did throughout His mission on earth was to glorify God, showing us the importance of glorifying God in all our actions.
See part 2
No, it is not wrong to believe that your are "a sinner saved by grace", even though this phrase is not used in the Bible. As you know, in the Church today we use phrases or words to describe a Truth that is evident in the Bible but not the actual words used. Ephesians 2:8,9 is the Scripture that reflects the phrase "a sinner saved by grace". We could say the same about the Triune Nature of God (otherwise, referred to as the Trinity): where there are many verses that describe this profound Nature yet not using that word, Trinity (e.g. Matthew 28:19; John 17:3-5; 1 John 1:1-3; etc.). We use the word 'Rapture', which is derived from the Latin form from the Greek, which means 'to seize or to snatch' (e.g. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17). So, there's nothing wrong with using words or phrases not found in the Bible, as long as it correctly & clearly expresses a biblical Truth. But if someone is against using such words or phrases, then I would be equally comfortable in using the direct biblical quotations in lieu.
But the main point of Ephesians 2:8,9 is that our salvation is all of God's Grace & Mercy afforded us - nothing we have done or ever can do could replace or even complement God's Work for us and in us. It is truly God's Gift to us - and a gift cannot be received in exchange for something else, or else it's no longer a gift.
I thought about starting a new series of postings describing Christ as He is in the Old Testament and New (as many like to say concealed and then revealed). There is a certain broad base of topics especially in regard to the law (OT) and grace (NT). As with many theological doctrines there may be a general progress historically and according to God's plans with the Old and New Covenants; etal.; nonetheless mutual exclusivity can't be a viable option despite how tempting it may be to draw what seems like an easy conclusion. This is because Christ is the fullness of the law and thus Matthew 5:18 stands firm. The person of Christ is the essence of the summation of all the attributes of God ( Colossians 2:9). As to His earthly ministry and humbling Himself to live out a brief existence in time and space to accomplish God's purpose as the atonement for our sins certainly encompasses many prophetic promises and basically sums all of the Bible as the end of all things is preached by the Messiah and the New Testament ends shortly after the Resurrection discussing all things into eternity we need to know. Nonethless of course His eternal presence and glory as stated in Revelation 1 is a foreshadowing of how we all shall behold Him in all His splendor soon.
In regard to that thought it becomes clear to me that much of what has gone wrong with the Internet in particular is that Christ Himself as He truly is often seems to be sidetracked with all the predictions; dreams; visions and novel interpretations of often subjective experiences people have. If we aren't as John in Revelation 1; or the other prophets in falling flat on our faces with any story given about such matters then it is pretty clear they are spurious. Our obsession has to be on Him not any other agenda. John 17:3 comes close to the Navigators motto to "know Him and make Him known".
I pray this helps some people see more clearly into who He is and His manifold ways.
Pt. 3
The Scriptures clearly say that God will not share His glory with another (Is. 42:8) but in John 17:5 the Father did and does share His divine glory with Jesus, who is also God.
Many places in Scripture state that God created all that there is, AND that Jesus created all that there is ( John 1:1-3; John 1:10; Col. 1:16; 1 Cor. 8:6) Only a Being can create, not an idea or a plan.
And lastly, Jesus is worshipped as God in Rev. along with the Father. ( Rev. 5:1-14; 19:1-8).
Jesus is our Maker, Creator, Lord, and God. He always has been God, not an idea or plan in the mind of God. He is forever the Son of God because John 1:18 in the Greek call Him the only begotten God who has seen God (the Father) and whom declares who God is as the eternal Word.
What one believes about the eternal existence and deity of Jesus will frame how one views the gospel, His sacrifice, our atonement, and that salvation truly comes only from God in Christ alone. Not from one who is only human who lived a sinless life, as Unitarians profess. Jesus, from everlasting to everlasting is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
God is the only Savior (Is. 43:11; Hos. 13:4; Jude 1:25).
Fuji,
May God bless you with true understanding of how Scriptures answer your two questions.
Heb. 1:6 God instructed the angels to worship the Son.
The apostles worshipped Jesus ( Mt. 28:9; Mt. 14:33;. Jn. 20:28)
And the man born blind worshipped Jesus ( Jn. 9:38
This is my part 2
Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:
What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.
Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).
John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.
Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".
Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.
In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!
John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.
See Pt. 3
I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.
As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:
1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?
The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".
In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.
John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.
John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".
John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.
The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.
Hi Fuji. Thank you for your questions & for seriously considering this very important doctrine. Bro Giannis has certainly answered your questions very well, and if I might add more for you to consider.
Once we can understand such doctrines (i.e. as far as we humanly can understand, since the deep matters of God will always be mysterious to us in this life), then we can piece together the information the Bible gives us, to help us form an understanding & belief. True, we must confess that we cannot know everything about such a subject, such as the one addressed, but from what we're given, without forcefully altering its intended meaning, we can safely believe, before God Who judges righteously, that He would not hold us accountable for any misunderstanding.
To that end, we have already shared that Jesus was already in Heaven, whether in His references to being in 'existence' before Abraham ( John 8:58), or Paul's reference to His creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17), or even Jesus' Own prayer to His Father ( John 17:5); and how true this prayer must have been, for would Jesus even try to hoodwink His Father on such a matter? So when we come to the Word & believe in every word given to us, as I know you do, then what are we to do with it & how are we to believe & accept the Scriptures. Unfortunately, we very often let human reasoning & logic come to the fore (which of course, is very natural), & so reading the Scriptures can be colored by that intrusion. Onto Page 2.