Objection: Eph 2:20 says the church is built on "apostles and prophets," so the Twelve must be in the BoC.
Reply: Eph 3:5 clarifies these are the "now-revealed" NT apostles/prophets of the mystery economy (including Paul; see Acts 13:1; Eph 4:11). Rev 21:14 assigns the Twelve to New Jerusalem's foundations-a kingdom symbol distinct from the BoC.
Objection: 1 Cor 12:13 says all are baptized into one body-doesn't that include the Twelve?
Reply: It explains the BoC's present-age placement by the Spirit, not a retroactive relocation of Israel's kingdom apostles from their promised thrones ( Matt 19:28).
Objection: 2 Pet 3:15-16 shows Peter aligning with Paul.
Reply: Peter endorses Paul's wisdom but keeps his circumcision apostleship ( Gal 2:7-9).
Bottom line: The Twelve remain Israel's kingdom apostles with earthly governmental roles ( Matt 19:28; Acts 3:19-21). The BoC is the mystery entity revealed through Paul, comprising Jew and Gentile in one new man with heavenly citizenship ( Rom 16:25; Eph 2:15-16; 3:1-9; 1 Cor 12:13; Phil 3:20). Therefore the Twelve are not members of the BoC.
GiGi and Chris have answered well. There was a transition, but the same gospel and one body of Christ-that is, the Church. Galatians 4:4 says, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law." Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel and to fulfill the law and the prophets.
Jesus had to live a perfect, sinless life under the law to bring in the new everlasting covenant. As prophesied, the new covenant had to be offered to the Jews first before it was offered to the Gentiles, as seen in Romans 1:16. We see that when the time came to go to the Gentiles, as in Acts 7:54-60, they plugged their ears and killed Stephen. Philip was the first to carry the gospel to the Samaritans, as in Acts 8. Paul's conversion is detailed in Acts 9, and Peter's dream and the sending to Cornelius are in Acts 10. Salvation has always been a gift of God through faith by the grace of God. John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9,
Thank you Lbooth1955 for that lengthy discourse on who constitutes the Body of Christ. Rather than deal with each of your points or even to duplicate GiGi's good reply, I will just highlight one of your 'Objections and Reply to it'. And that is:
"Objection: 1 Cor 12:13 says all are baptized into one body-doesn't that include the Twelve?
Reply: It explains the BoC's present-age placement by the Spirit, not a retroactive relocation of Israel's kingdom apostles from their
promised thrones ( Matt 19:28)."
The path my understanding takes on this begins at Luke 24:49, "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." The resurrected Jesus speaks to His disciples/apostles (not to any future apostles, only the twelve) to await the promise of His Father.
Then to Acts 1:4,5, Luke reiterates the Lord's message, "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Again, the twelve are spoken about here and that when the promise of the Father would come, they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2 follows.
To 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Paul writes about the same Holy Spirit Who baptizes all (Jew and Gentile) into the one body (the Body of Christ). So we can believe that there are no two Holy Spirits (one for the apostles and one for everyone else); we can also believe that the baptism by the Spirit baptises all into one Body (i.e. the Body of Christ).
If the same Spirit baptized the apostles, the believing Jews & Gentiles in those early days, and us today, aren't we all in ONE Body of Christ?
Great Scriptures bro. S. Spencer. Giving us a little glimpse of Jesus' great desire for a unified Body, both positionally and with Christ-like love, holding onto the Truth. A very strong testimony to the world, and of the Work of Christ in every heart that turns to Him alone. That testimony alone should speak volumes, but alas, the Church is so fragmented, entertaining all manner of doctrines, with sin rampant. The world watches all this and will pick up on every divergence & hypocrisy. The Church is in a very sad state, but there are lights shining brightly for the Lord amongst them - may our little light so shine among men, that through our good works and godly living, may glorify our Father in Heaven. Every blessing.
1 Corinthians 12:13-"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"-describes the Spirit's operation in this present dispensation of grace, placing believers into the Body of Christ. This is a new creation ( 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:15), revealed through Paul as "the revelation of the mystery" ( Eph 3:1-9). It identifies the forming of a joint body of believing Jew and Gentile, apart from Israel's covenant program and apart from water baptism.
The Twelve were called under Israel's prophetic kingdom program ( Matt 19:28; Luke 22:29-30). They were promised positions of authority "judging the twelve tribes of Israel," not membership in the Body of Christ destined for heavenly places ( Eph 1:3; Phil 3:20). Their baptism ( Acts 2:38; Matt 28:19) related to repentance and the kingdom gospel, not Spirit placement into the one Body later revealed through Paul.
Therefore, 1 Cor 12:13 is not retroactively moving the kingdom apostles into a new organism but defining how God now works in this dispensation. The "we all" refers to those who have believed Paul's gospel ( 1 Cor 15:1-4)-whether Jew or Gentile-since the revelation of the mystery. The Twelve remain part of Israel's prophetic calling; the Body of Christ is a distinct, heavenly people formed afterward by the Spirit through Paul's ministry ( 1 Tim 1:16).
Thanks again Lbooth1955. It seems from your comment that the development of the Body of Christ, the Church, took place only after this mystery was revealed to Paul. But before that revelation, it was unheard of and un-formed. And as this only happened since Paul's arrival, all those during his time & ministry who believed came into this newly formed Body. So, even those who believed in Christ before this revelation given to Paul, still came under 'Israel's prophetic kingdom program' (including the apostles). I think that is the gist of what you believe and shared on this particular subject. Please correct my understanding if I've erred.
So the twelve preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, and though not destined for Heaven at their demise, still had the promise of eternal life and earthly recognition in "judging the tribes of Israel". That raises a couple of questions:
a. should we actually believe that until the ministry of Paul, no one believing during the ministry of Jesus in Israel, His resurrection/ascension and until Paul's conversion, being taught by the Lord in the desert, & his revelation to the Churches, could ever be included into the Body of Christ? It seems then that the Plan for God's acceptance and adoption of believers in that interim period was not evident and that God had waited for Paul's conversion & teaching to believers to instigate this new relationship into His Son's Body. Or..maybe God didn't have to wait for Paul - that the Body of Christ had immediately formed at Pentecost comprising all who turned to Christ, with or without Paul; but to Paul was given the Word to identify & proclaim this already formed Body to believers. Onto Page 2.
b. and this is concerning the apostles not destined for Heaven but to remain on Earth to judge the twelve tribes. John 14:1-3 was Jesus' assurance & comfort to His disciples (in their questioning and confusion: John 13:33-38), that He had to leave them to return to His Father. But He would return for them. During His departure, Jesus would prepare 'dwelling places' for them and that at His Return, He would take them to be with Him (at His Father's house - Heaven). Do these verses suggest to you that Jesus' Promise to them is that their destiny would actually be Heaven (at least in the interim, with the saints in their deaths or the rapture)? It would be very difficult to believe that these places being prepared in Heaven for the apostles are not actually located in Heaven but on Earth (or maybe what the new Earth has in store for them), given what Jesus spoke about. Blessings.
Unfortunately I missed parts two and three of your posts!
I did get the original question which I believe "Are the Apostles and part of the body of Christ?"
I believe Ronald W began a good answer to that question when he posted Ephesians 1:22-23.
Also Peter being the little pebble of which come from the foundation/Cornerstone in which the Church is built.
Also the baptism of the Holyspirit putting all of the new covenant into one body is hinted in John 17:16-23.
Is there a Gospel of the kingdom? Yes, I believe Jesus clearly teaches that!
I believe he taught that to his disciples going after the lost sheep of Israel during Jesus earthly ministry under the old covenant.
I believe after the crucifixion and resurrection and giving of the Spirit the "now Apostles" were commissioned to take the Gospel to the world!
Paul to the Gentiles and the rest primarily to Israel!
Is there future promises to be fulfilled to "The house of Israel? Absolutely!
The bible clearly teaches that!
Is there two people of God in the Bible? Absolutely! The bible clearly teaches that!
You don't have to hammer away on these points! Most people here on this site know and believe that!
We may part in some of these points but most
come to the conclusion of these truths though we may not agree on certain details.
As for hermeneutics.
Hermeneutics is how scripture is interpreted! NOT how doctrine is explained!
Good hermeneutics is interpreting scripture and letting the outcome form the doctrine which hangs on a solid interpretation of the word of God.
Which I believe you have!
Good hermeneutics is NOT a convenient spiritualization of the text to form at viewpoint or doctrine.
The doctrine of the kingdom doctrine have its climax in the scriptures describing the Millennium and its found throughout scripture. Especially the OT scriptures!
Try collaborating them and watch some hermeneutics fall apart!
You contradict yourself in this post when you intimate all who believe in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile are in the body of Christ and then you go on to say that the apostles ARE NOT in the body of Christ, rather in some sort of entity made up of ethnic Jews under a different covenant program than the New Covenant of Christ.
Your contradiction reveals your errors. Please be open to having a change in your thinking here. We all should be open to the Holy Spirit to work into us correct doctrine, approach to Scripture, and hermeneutics in interpreting Scripture. I find fault in all of these areas with Mid-Acts dispensationalism as you have presented it on this forum.
In Eph. 4 Paul states unequivocally that there is only one Body, and one Spirt who brings both Jews and Gentiles into one Hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, and one Father of all.
It was Christ through the Spirit who gives gifts: some apostles (only those who were eyewitnesses of Jesus in the flesh both before and after His resurrection and (in Paul's case) ascension), and some prophets, such as those listed in Acts 13:1-5 (as you cited to erroneously prove your point), some evangelists, some pastors, and some teachers (see Acts 13:1-5). All of these are were given t the church to equip the saints-both Jew and Gentile for the work of the ministry of the gospel of Jesus and to build up the Body of Christs. Paul emphasizes the purpose of these gifted persons to produce unity of the faith and full knowledge of Jesus and Christ-likeness in order that we are not tossed to and fro by teaching that of trickery people and deceitful schemes (and I will name mid-acts dispensationalism as such a scheme of interpreting the Scriptures).
The Mid-Acts dispensationalist scheme separates the saints into two classes of believers which is contrary to what Paul revealed in Ch. 1-3 and relegates Jewish believers such as the apostles, Mary, Jesus' mother, other women and male disciples of Jesus gathered in Jerusalem from the time of Jesus' ascension to Pentecost in obedience to Him waiting to receive the promised Spirit as not being in the Body of Christ or the Church. This is plain false teaching. The only people of God, as Romans 11 clearly teaches are those who believe the gospel and put their faith in Jesus whether they are Gentiles or ethnic Israelites. Ethnic Israelites and Gentiles who do not belong to Christ by faith are NOT God's people. Those who claim that non-believing Jews are God's people regardless error. And those who teach that there are two separate destinies for Jews and Gentiles go against what Paul says as all believers are one new man.
Point 1-Clearly the Jesus' 12 apostles were under the New Covenant as Jesus spoke to them at the Last Supper ( Mt. 16:28) just as all in Christ partake of this same New Covenant made with His blood for all who believe-both Jew and Gentile.
Point 2-Romans chapter 11 refutes what you claim about the body of Christ-the "one new man" not being Israel enlarged. Lbooth, the opposite is true-the mystery that Paul preached was that the believing Gentiles are included in believing Israel. Eph. 1:7-14 speaks of the saints (all who believe in Jesus) having redemption through His blood and forgiveness of our sins, having revealed to believers the secret of His will that He set forth IN CHRIST now in the fullness of times, for Christ to head up all things-both heaven and earth. Us, (faithful Gentile saints),TOO, have been claimed as God's own possession.
And in Eph. 2 Paul addresses the Gentiles, termed the "uncircumcision" by those of the "circumcision (Jews) were alienated from the citizenship of Israel, being far away from God, but because of the blood of Christ, are brought near (as the Jews are near) in order to make the two groups one in Christ, creating "one new man". reconciling both (Jew and Gentile) in Christ's body on the cross, preaching peace to those who were far off (Gentiles) and to those who were near (Jews) that through Jesus' blood and by the Spirit both groups have equal access to the Father. Gentiles are no longer foreigners and noncitizens of God's household (His one possession, one people) but have become fellow citizens (with the Jewish saints), members of God's household (body)
Eph.3 is where Paul explains the "divine secret" revealed to that generation to and through His apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This divine secret is NAMELY that through the gospel, Gentiles are brought into the same New Covenant that the apostles and Jewish believers were brought into by Jesus Christ.
In Ephesians chapter 2 Paul is speaking to Gentile believers. In 2:13-15 Paul speaks of Gentiles drawing near by the blood of Christ, making of both Jew and Gentile one in Christ Jesus-called the one new man-to reconcile them both in one body in Christ on the cross, giving to both Jew and Gentile access to the Father by the Holy Spirit (2:18). Vs. 2:19 says that Gentiles (who were foreigners and non-citizens, are now fellow citizens with the Jewish saints , members of the household of God. Vs. 2:20 then speaks that this household is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone.
Lbooth, this whole section is speaking of the body of Christ and the apostles Paul speaks of are the twelve apostles Jesus called and commissioned to head up the church after Jesus was ascended. I do not read any verses that designate these apostles as any other than the 12 Jewish apostles.
In Chapter 3, Paul speaks of the mystery revealed to him AND THE APOSTLES. He does not say that these are DIFFERENT APOSTLES than the original ones Jesus called and commissioned (and OT prophets) He is not speaking of any new apostles that were selected instead of the original. (vs.1-6) Your claim that this is so is not true. You just state it is so because of the way you re-interpret Scripture to fit into your mid-Acts dispensationalist tenets. This is proper hermeneutics and misleads believers in serious ways. So, I cannot abide by your refutations and instead determine that your ideas on this question of yours is false teaching. I tend to think that you posed the question specifically so you could promulgate your false interpretations of Scripture.
I am not meaning to be harsh with you. I have patiently read and considered your many postings from a mid-acts dispensational mindset and have refrained from identifying your ideas as false teaching. But at this point I feel I must do so. You may think my ideas are false. I get that.
Read Ephesians 2-3 in light of Paul's stewardship. In 2:13-18, the "one new man" is not Israel enlarged but a new creation where Jew/Gentile distinctions are abolished "in his flesh." Thus, "through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father" (2:18). Verse 19 calls Gentiles "fellow-citizens with the saints," yet v.15 has ended the law that fenced Gentiles out (cf. Col 2:14). The change is not Gentiles becoming Israel, but both being created anew in Christ's body ( 2 Cor 5:17; Gal 3:28).
Ephesians 2:20's "foundation of the apostles and prophets" names the foundation's doctrine, not ethnicity or a fixed number of men. Christ is the cornerstone; the foundation is the now-revealed truth preached by Christ's commissioned apostles and prophets for this administration ( 1 Cor 3:10-11; Eph 4:11). In Paul, "prophets" are New-Testament church prophets ( Acts 13:1; 1 Cor 12:28), not Isaiah or Jeremiah. That is confirmed in 3:5: the mystery "in other ages was not made known as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Note the "now." The content was first entrusted to Paul ( Eph 3:2-9; Col 1:25-27), then made known to other apostles and prophets-shared, yet peculiarly "given" to Paul to dispense.
This does not demote the Twelve; it honors their kingdom apostleship to Israel ( Matt 19:28; Acts 1:6; Gal 2:7-9) while acknowledging Paul's distinct apostleship to the Gentiles and the Body's heavenly calling ( Rom 11:13; Eph 1:3; Phil 3:20). Peter recognizes new wisdom given to Paul ( 2 Pet 3:15-16). Calling this "false teaching" collapses texts Scripture keeps distinct. Right division preserves both programs-Israel's earthly covenants and the Body's unprophesied unity-so Christ, not our labels, sets the boundaries ( 2 Tim 2:7, 15). Let's keep the tone charitable and let the plain wording of these verses lead us. Always!!!
The way you chop up Scripture to fit into the dispensational scheme you have chosen to adhere to takes separates what God has joined together-ALL believers are one in Christ, which includes ALL the apostles of Jesus and ALL Jews who believe the One Gospel of grace.
I disavow any teaching that insists there are two gospels, one for Gentiles and one for Jews as if each are believing different doctrines that reveal how they are saved in different ways. This is serious error. Any Israelite who believes what God revealed to them in Christ is included in the Church of Jesus. To believe otherwise is simply anti-semitic especially when one says that Gentiles and ethnic Israelites have different eternal states. The eternal life we receive from Jesus' death and resurrection is the same for both.
Rev. 21-22 clearly shows that God resides with saints on the New Earth. The New Heaven is united t the New Earth in the same way that Israelite believers in Jesus are united with Gentile believers in one body, which is Christ's, the Church. The New Jerusalem is the heavenly city (symbolizing God's throne, power, authority, dominion, and perfect will) that is brought down to the new earth where His saints abide in Him and He in them as a holy temple or tabernacle/dwelling of God with His ONE people forever. Believers (both Israeli and Gentile) will dwell together in the place God prepares for His people.
No spiritual or human being is able to make this "place of rest" "eternal life" "tabernacle". It is only the work of God-all of grace with(Christ being all in all-the head of all that He secured for us in His victory over sin, death, hell, and the devil, all of which will be forever in the Lake of Fire with unbelievers and wicked angels).
Lbooth, I am thankful for this dialog because it is truly important that each of us come to the knowledge of truth of Scripture. I pray for this to come to fruition in all who participate with us, either in responding or reading.
I meant to say that what you put forth from a mid-acts dispensational view on this question is not proper hermeneutics.
I forgot to put in the "not".
I don't have much time this morning as I have an appointment to go to soon.
I just wanted to mention that the Scripture verses you gave ( Eph. 3:5, 4:11, Acts 13:1) are not speaking to this point concerning apostles as to there being apostles appointed other than the 12 plus Paul. The apostles spoken of in these verses ARE the one Jesus chose and commissioned. An apostle is one who was an eye-witness to Jesus' ministry, crucifixion, death, and resurrection. Gentiles would not have been such witnesses and therefore, by definition, would not be apostles.
I hope you have a lovely day. Again, I mean no ill will towards you, but I think the way you interpret Scripture using the mid-acts dispensational model is erroneous and misleading both to you and others. This concerns me and therefore I speak up about the falseness of your viewpoint on this question concerning the apostles as NOT being members of the body of Christ and also members of the church that Jesus promised the 12 apostles He would build obviously using them to spread the truth of the gospel of Himself out from Jerusalem into the whole world making disciples of those the Father draws to Jesus so that these new believers will likewise continue to spread the Good News.
There is only one people of God, not two as dispensationalism promotes. There is no directive in Scripture to keep Israel and the Church separated, nor that ethnic Israel will forever be a separate earthly people of God and the Church being forever a heavenly people of God distinct and apart from ethnic Israel. All believers have one single destiny in Jesus and one singular hope and above all oneness in Christ Jesus.
Objection: Eph 2:20 says the church is built on "apostles and prophets," so the Twelve must be in the BoC.
Reply: Eph 3:5 clarifies these are the "now-revealed" NT apostles/prophets of the mystery economy (including Paul; see Acts 13:1; Eph 4:11). Rev 21:14 assigns the Twelve to New Jerusalem's foundations-a kingdom symbol distinct from the BoC.
Objection: 1 Cor 12:13 says all are baptized into one body-doesn't that include the Twelve?
Reply: It explains the BoC's present-age placement by the Spirit, not a retroactive relocation of Israel's kingdom apostles from their promised thrones ( Matt 19:28).
Objection: 2 Pet 3:15-16 shows Peter aligning with Paul.
Reply: Peter endorses Paul's wisdom but keeps his circumcision apostleship ( Gal 2:7-9).
Bottom line: The Twelve remain Israel's kingdom apostles with earthly governmental roles ( Matt 19:28; Acts 3:19-21). The BoC is the mystery entity revealed through Paul, comprising Jew and Gentile in one new man with heavenly citizenship ( Rom 16:25; Eph 2:15-16; 3:1-9; 1 Cor 12:13; Phil 3:20). Therefore the Twelve are not members of the BoC.
Grace and Peace.
GiGi and Chris have answered well. There was a transition, but the same gospel and one body of Christ-that is, the Church. Galatians 4:4 says, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law." Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel and to fulfill the law and the prophets.
Jesus had to live a perfect, sinless life under the law to bring in the new everlasting covenant. As prophesied, the new covenant had to be offered to the Jews first before it was offered to the Gentiles, as seen in Romans 1:16. We see that when the time came to go to the Gentiles, as in Acts 7:54-60, they plugged their ears and killed Stephen. Philip was the first to carry the gospel to the Samaritans, as in Acts 8. Paul's conversion is detailed in Acts 9, and Peter's dream and the sending to Cornelius are in Acts 10. Salvation has always been a gift of God through faith by the grace of God. John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9,
God bless.
RLW
"Objection: 1 Cor 12:13 says all are baptized into one body-doesn't that include the Twelve?
Reply: It explains the BoC's present-age placement by the Spirit, not a retroactive relocation of Israel's kingdom apostles from their
promised thrones ( Matt 19:28)."
The path my understanding takes on this begins at Luke 24:49, "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." The resurrected Jesus speaks to His disciples/apostles (not to any future apostles, only the twelve) to await the promise of His Father.
Then to Acts 1:4,5, Luke reiterates the Lord's message, "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Again, the twelve are spoken about here and that when the promise of the Father would come, they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2 follows.
To 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Paul writes about the same Holy Spirit Who baptizes all (Jew and Gentile) into the one body (the Body of Christ). So we can believe that there are no two Holy Spirits (one for the apostles and one for everyone else); we can also believe that the baptism by the Spirit baptises all into one Body (i.e. the Body of Christ).
If the same Spirit baptized the apostles, the believing Jews & Gentiles in those early days, and us today, aren't we all in ONE Body of Christ?
"The same Spirit that baptized all the saints also baptized the Apostles in that same body of believers!
Your post reminds me of John 17:17-23.
I unfortunately missed most of this thread!
God bless you.
1 Corinthians 12:13-"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body"-describes the Spirit's operation in this present dispensation of grace, placing believers into the Body of Christ. This is a new creation ( 2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:15), revealed through Paul as "the revelation of the mystery" ( Eph 3:1-9). It identifies the forming of a joint body of believing Jew and Gentile, apart from Israel's covenant program and apart from water baptism.
The Twelve were called under Israel's prophetic kingdom program ( Matt 19:28; Luke 22:29-30). They were promised positions of authority "judging the twelve tribes of Israel," not membership in the Body of Christ destined for heavenly places ( Eph 1:3; Phil 3:20). Their baptism ( Acts 2:38; Matt 28:19) related to repentance and the kingdom gospel, not Spirit placement into the one Body later revealed through Paul.
Therefore, 1 Cor 12:13 is not retroactively moving the kingdom apostles into a new organism but defining how God now works in this dispensation. The "we all" refers to those who have believed Paul's gospel ( 1 Cor 15:1-4)-whether Jew or Gentile-since the revelation of the mystery. The Twelve remain part of Israel's prophetic calling; the Body of Christ is a distinct, heavenly people formed afterward by the Spirit through Paul's ministry ( 1 Tim 1:16).
G&P
So the twelve preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, and though not destined for Heaven at their demise, still had the promise of eternal life and earthly recognition in "judging the tribes of Israel". That raises a couple of questions:
a. should we actually believe that until the ministry of Paul, no one believing during the ministry of Jesus in Israel, His resurrection/ascension and until Paul's conversion, being taught by the Lord in the desert, & his revelation to the Churches, could ever be included into the Body of Christ? It seems then that the Plan for God's acceptance and adoption of believers in that interim period was not evident and that God had waited for Paul's conversion & teaching to believers to instigate this new relationship into His Son's Body. Or..maybe God didn't have to wait for Paul - that the Body of Christ had immediately formed at Pentecost comprising all who turned to Christ, with or without Paul; but to Paul was given the Word to identify & proclaim this already formed Body to believers. Onto Page 2.
b. and this is concerning the apostles not destined for Heaven but to remain on Earth to judge the twelve tribes. John 14:1-3 was Jesus' assurance & comfort to His disciples (in their questioning and confusion: John 13:33-38), that He had to leave them to return to His Father. But He would return for them. During His departure, Jesus would prepare 'dwelling places' for them and that at His Return, He would take them to be with Him (at His Father's house - Heaven). Do these verses suggest to you that Jesus' Promise to them is that their destiny would actually be Heaven (at least in the interim, with the saints in their deaths or the rapture)? It would be very difficult to believe that these places being prepared in Heaven for the apostles are not actually located in Heaven but on Earth (or maybe what the new Earth has in store for them), given what Jesus spoke about. Blessings.
Unfortunately I missed parts two and three of your posts!
I did get the original question which I believe "Are the Apostles and part of the body of Christ?"
I believe Ronald W began a good answer to that question when he posted Ephesians 1:22-23.
Also Peter being the little pebble of which come from the foundation/Cornerstone in which the Church is built.
Also the baptism of the Holyspirit putting all of the new covenant into one body is hinted in John 17:16-23.
Is there a Gospel of the kingdom? Yes, I believe Jesus clearly teaches that!
I believe he taught that to his disciples going after the lost sheep of Israel during Jesus earthly ministry under the old covenant.
I believe after the crucifixion and resurrection and giving of the Spirit the "now Apostles" were commissioned to take the Gospel to the world!
Paul to the Gentiles and the rest primarily to Israel!
Is there future promises to be fulfilled to "The house of Israel? Absolutely!
The bible clearly teaches that!
Is there two people of God in the Bible? Absolutely! The bible clearly teaches that!
You don't have to hammer away on these points! Most people here on this site know and believe that!
We may part in some of these points but most
come to the conclusion of these truths though we may not agree on certain details.
As for hermeneutics.
Hermeneutics is how scripture is interpreted! NOT how doctrine is explained!
Good hermeneutics is interpreting scripture and letting the outcome form the doctrine which hangs on a solid interpretation of the word of God.
Which I believe you have!
Good hermeneutics is NOT a convenient spiritualization of the text to form at viewpoint or doctrine.
The doctrine of the kingdom doctrine have its climax in the scriptures describing the Millennium and its found throughout scripture. Especially the OT scriptures!
Try collaborating them and watch some hermeneutics fall apart!
Thanks Brother and God bless!!
You contradict yourself in this post when you intimate all who believe in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile are in the body of Christ and then you go on to say that the apostles ARE NOT in the body of Christ, rather in some sort of entity made up of ethnic Jews under a different covenant program than the New Covenant of Christ.
Your contradiction reveals your errors. Please be open to having a change in your thinking here. We all should be open to the Holy Spirit to work into us correct doctrine, approach to Scripture, and hermeneutics in interpreting Scripture. I find fault in all of these areas with Mid-Acts dispensationalism as you have presented it on this forum.
In Eph. 4 Paul states unequivocally that there is only one Body, and one Spirt who brings both Jews and Gentiles into one Hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, and one Father of all.
It was Christ through the Spirit who gives gifts: some apostles (only those who were eyewitnesses of Jesus in the flesh both before and after His resurrection and (in Paul's case) ascension), and some prophets, such as those listed in Acts 13:1-5 (as you cited to erroneously prove your point), some evangelists, some pastors, and some teachers (see Acts 13:1-5). All of these are were given t the church to equip the saints-both Jew and Gentile for the work of the ministry of the gospel of Jesus and to build up the Body of Christs. Paul emphasizes the purpose of these gifted persons to produce unity of the faith and full knowledge of Jesus and Christ-likeness in order that we are not tossed to and fro by teaching that of trickery people and deceitful schemes (and I will name mid-acts dispensationalism as such a scheme of interpreting the Scriptures).
The Mid-Acts dispensationalist scheme separates the saints into two classes of believers which is contrary to what Paul revealed in Ch. 1-3 and relegates Jewish believers such as the apostles, Mary, Jesus' mother, other women and male disciples of Jesus gathered in Jerusalem from the time of Jesus' ascension to Pentecost in obedience to Him waiting to receive the promised Spirit as not being in the Body of Christ or the Church. This is plain false teaching. The only people of God, as Romans 11 clearly teaches are those who believe the gospel and put their faith in Jesus whether they are Gentiles or ethnic Israelites. Ethnic Israelites and Gentiles who do not belong to Christ by faith are NOT God's people. Those who claim that non-believing Jews are God's people regardless error. And those who teach that there are two separate destinies for Jews and Gentiles go against what Paul says as all believers are one new man.
Point 1-Clearly the Jesus' 12 apostles were under the New Covenant as Jesus spoke to them at the Last Supper ( Mt. 16:28) just as all in Christ partake of this same New Covenant made with His blood for all who believe-both Jew and Gentile.
Point 2-Romans chapter 11 refutes what you claim about the body of Christ-the "one new man" not being Israel enlarged. Lbooth, the opposite is true-the mystery that Paul preached was that the believing Gentiles are included in believing Israel. Eph. 1:7-14 speaks of the saints (all who believe in Jesus) having redemption through His blood and forgiveness of our sins, having revealed to believers the secret of His will that He set forth IN CHRIST now in the fullness of times, for Christ to head up all things-both heaven and earth. Us, (faithful Gentile saints),TOO, have been claimed as God's own possession.
And in Eph. 2 Paul addresses the Gentiles, termed the "uncircumcision" by those of the "circumcision (Jews) were alienated from the citizenship of Israel, being far away from God, but because of the blood of Christ, are brought near (as the Jews are near) in order to make the two groups one in Christ, creating "one new man". reconciling both (Jew and Gentile) in Christ's body on the cross, preaching peace to those who were far off (Gentiles) and to those who were near (Jews) that through Jesus' blood and by the Spirit both groups have equal access to the Father. Gentiles are no longer foreigners and noncitizens of God's household (His one possession, one people) but have become fellow citizens (with the Jewish saints), members of God's household (body)
Eph.3 is where Paul explains the "divine secret" revealed to that generation to and through His apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This divine secret is NAMELY that through the gospel, Gentiles are brought into the same New Covenant that the apostles and Jewish believers were brought into by Jesus Christ.
see Pt. 3
In Ephesians chapter 2 Paul is speaking to Gentile believers. In 2:13-15 Paul speaks of Gentiles drawing near by the blood of Christ, making of both Jew and Gentile one in Christ Jesus-called the one new man-to reconcile them both in one body in Christ on the cross, giving to both Jew and Gentile access to the Father by the Holy Spirit (2:18). Vs. 2:19 says that Gentiles (who were foreigners and non-citizens, are now fellow citizens with the Jewish saints , members of the household of God. Vs. 2:20 then speaks that this household is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets with Christ Jesus as the chief cornerstone.
Lbooth, this whole section is speaking of the body of Christ and the apostles Paul speaks of are the twelve apostles Jesus called and commissioned to head up the church after Jesus was ascended. I do not read any verses that designate these apostles as any other than the 12 Jewish apostles.
In Chapter 3, Paul speaks of the mystery revealed to him AND THE APOSTLES. He does not say that these are DIFFERENT APOSTLES than the original ones Jesus called and commissioned (and OT prophets) He is not speaking of any new apostles that were selected instead of the original. (vs.1-6) Your claim that this is so is not true. You just state it is so because of the way you re-interpret Scripture to fit into your mid-Acts dispensationalist tenets. This is proper hermeneutics and misleads believers in serious ways. So, I cannot abide by your refutations and instead determine that your ideas on this question of yours is false teaching. I tend to think that you posed the question specifically so you could promulgate your false interpretations of Scripture.
I am not meaning to be harsh with you. I have patiently read and considered your many postings from a mid-acts dispensational mindset and have refrained from identifying your ideas as false teaching. But at this point I feel I must do so. You may think my ideas are false. I get that.
Ephesians 2:20's "foundation of the apostles and prophets" names the foundation's doctrine, not ethnicity or a fixed number of men. Christ is the cornerstone; the foundation is the now-revealed truth preached by Christ's commissioned apostles and prophets for this administration ( 1 Cor 3:10-11; Eph 4:11). In Paul, "prophets" are New-Testament church prophets ( Acts 13:1; 1 Cor 12:28), not Isaiah or Jeremiah. That is confirmed in 3:5: the mystery "in other ages was not made known as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." Note the "now." The content was first entrusted to Paul ( Eph 3:2-9; Col 1:25-27), then made known to other apostles and prophets-shared, yet peculiarly "given" to Paul to dispense.
This does not demote the Twelve; it honors their kingdom apostleship to Israel ( Matt 19:28; Acts 1:6; Gal 2:7-9) while acknowledging Paul's distinct apostleship to the Gentiles and the Body's heavenly calling ( Rom 11:13; Eph 1:3; Phil 3:20). Peter recognizes new wisdom given to Paul ( 2 Pet 3:15-16). Calling this "false teaching" collapses texts Scripture keeps distinct. Right division preserves both programs-Israel's earthly covenants and the Body's unprophesied unity-so Christ, not our labels, sets the boundaries ( 2 Tim 2:7, 15). Let's keep the tone charitable and let the plain wording of these verses lead us. Always!!!
How is it going? Just checking on you brother.
GBU.
The way you chop up Scripture to fit into the dispensational scheme you have chosen to adhere to takes separates what God has joined together-ALL believers are one in Christ, which includes ALL the apostles of Jesus and ALL Jews who believe the One Gospel of grace.
I disavow any teaching that insists there are two gospels, one for Gentiles and one for Jews as if each are believing different doctrines that reveal how they are saved in different ways. This is serious error. Any Israelite who believes what God revealed to them in Christ is included in the Church of Jesus. To believe otherwise is simply anti-semitic especially when one says that Gentiles and ethnic Israelites have different eternal states. The eternal life we receive from Jesus' death and resurrection is the same for both.
Rev. 21-22 clearly shows that God resides with saints on the New Earth. The New Heaven is united t the New Earth in the same way that Israelite believers in Jesus are united with Gentile believers in one body, which is Christ's, the Church. The New Jerusalem is the heavenly city (symbolizing God's throne, power, authority, dominion, and perfect will) that is brought down to the new earth where His saints abide in Him and He in them as a holy temple or tabernacle/dwelling of God with His ONE people forever. Believers (both Israeli and Gentile) will dwell together in the place God prepares for His people.
No spiritual or human being is able to make this "place of rest" "eternal life" "tabernacle". It is only the work of God-all of grace with(Christ being all in all-the head of all that He secured for us in His victory over sin, death, hell, and the devil, all of which will be forever in the Lake of Fire with unbelievers and wicked angels).
Lbooth, I am thankful for this dialog because it is truly important that each of us come to the knowledge of truth of Scripture. I pray for this to come to fruition in all who participate with us, either in responding or reading.
I meant to say that what you put forth from a mid-acts dispensational view on this question is not proper hermeneutics.
I forgot to put in the "not".
I don't have much time this morning as I have an appointment to go to soon.
I just wanted to mention that the Scripture verses you gave ( Eph. 3:5, 4:11, Acts 13:1) are not speaking to this point concerning apostles as to there being apostles appointed other than the 12 plus Paul. The apostles spoken of in these verses ARE the one Jesus chose and commissioned. An apostle is one who was an eye-witness to Jesus' ministry, crucifixion, death, and resurrection. Gentiles would not have been such witnesses and therefore, by definition, would not be apostles.
I hope you have a lovely day. Again, I mean no ill will towards you, but I think the way you interpret Scripture using the mid-acts dispensational model is erroneous and misleading both to you and others. This concerns me and therefore I speak up about the falseness of your viewpoint on this question concerning the apostles as NOT being members of the body of Christ and also members of the church that Jesus promised the 12 apostles He would build obviously using them to spread the truth of the gospel of Himself out from Jerusalem into the whole world making disciples of those the Father draws to Jesus so that these new believers will likewise continue to spread the Good News.
There is only one people of God, not two as dispensationalism promotes. There is no directive in Scripture to keep Israel and the Church separated, nor that ethnic Israel will forever be a separate earthly people of God and the Church being forever a heavenly people of God distinct and apart from ethnic Israel. All believers have one single destiny in Jesus and one singular hope and above all oneness in Christ Jesus.
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