Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 329

Bible Interpretation:

Chris,

Thank you for responding.

What you are saying makes perfect sense if we were to approach the Bible as merely a collection of writings by different authors communicating to different audiences in there own words about what they understood God was teaching them and wanted them to communicate.

But that is NOT what the Bible is because that is NOT what the Bible declares itself to be. The Bible declares itself to be the very Word of God Himself. And that God Himself is the Word. We cannot separate the two. The mechanics of how God assured that the human scribes spoke and penned exactly the events and information, using exactly the phrases and words, in the original languages, that God desired is ultimately God's business. But we can know for a certainty that it is so because the Bible, the Word of God Himself, declares it to be so.

So therefore, when determining how we are to approach and interpret scripture, we MUST look to the Bible itself and ONLY to the Bible and to the ENTIRE Bible to instruct us. That is to define our Hermeneutic. And God has graciously accommodated us in this matter.

No one would dispute that we must use proper grammatical rules of the original languages as a start. But we must understand that the Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter because it ultimately has only ONE AUTHOR. God Himself. And God may and does use a word or a phrase in one part of the Bible to indicate how we He may be using it in other parts of the Bible. "Jerusalem" is a good example.

In my previous posts I have tried to point out some of the scriptures where God defines what our Hermeneutic should be.

We must keep in mind that God has given us the Bible, not as a history book, but to present HIS PLAN FOR MANKIND AND HIS CREATION. And to DEMONSTRATE HIS GLORY. To show us our relationship to God. To demonstrate His perfect Justice and unfathomable Mercy in Salvation. In other words. the GOSPEL

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I share the above example from Paul to show what the correct understanding of the Bible is & what is the correct hermeneutics & exegesis to be employed. But if you believe that understanding the historical, grammatical, contextual aspect of Scripture is unimportant because that it undermines what God is trying to say, then I cannot accept that. I guess it comes down to how the biblical writers penned their works. I can't accept that they sat there with quill in hand, ink pot at their side, & waited for God to move their fingers according to His Words to them. These men loved their God & trusted Him to assist them bring out God's Message on paper/papyrus, etc, accurately as God directed. Were they devoid of mental acuity or lacking consciousness of the world around them, when they wrote? Did they need to question God, 'why am I writing this when I don't understand why I'm writing this?' What I'm saying, is that they were in full possession of their faculties & as they felt led to write (even the epistles that Paul wrote from prison), the Spirit of God filled their minds to pen those words. Nothing mysterious, nothing extraordinary - just men of God bringing God's Message, just as we might have today, with a pastor preparing his Lord's Day message, soaked in prayer & concern.

Now in the 21st Century, how should we understand those messages? Is it incorrect that we should desire to learn of the background of those accounts in the Bible? Or should we treat, for example, Nebuchadnezzar or Babylon as unimportant, & just seek to gain some deep spiritual insight & particularly find it in the NT to inspire us? I'm sorry, this type of reading & interpretation can only lead to greater error & further away from the Truth when the reason for the writing & its actual message is not taken literally & applied correctly. The NT writers knew this & if they found some deeper meaning, they never let on to their readers, nor to us.

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Thanks David 0920 for your detailed explanation of your understanding. I wasn't quite sure of it from your initial & subsequent posts, therefore my continuing to pursue it so as to be sure.

Okay, now that I understand you, I can appreciate why you would find disagreement with my belief on correct biblical hermeneutics. First to your questions. Since you enquired of me those questions, I thought to myself, well how could you find answers to them yourself? Just as I cannot find any biblical instruction 'not to do any of those things you suggested', so to, I don't believe there's any instruction to do so. The reason we can find Scriptural support & understanding in the NT, is because those who know the Word can see the connections.

There are many things that we read in the OT that we can see fulfilled in the NT. You've suggested the sacrificial system & ceremonial laws; the account of Ruth, Esther & Job; and others. We can even see the Apostle Paul finding connection with Hagar of the OT to the NT (i.e. concerning the Law, Hagar was the bondwoman, representing the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai & bringing the Israelites into bondage to the Law). But the freewoman (Sarah) - the heavenly Jerusalem, was given by promise, that which gives us freedom from the bondage to the Law & liberty now in Christ ( Galatians 4:21-31)). Here, Paul gives us the correct way of reading, interpreting & applying these OT events to the NT Church. He saw that Ishmael's birth was according to the flesh ( Galatians 4:23), i.e. Abraham not holding onto God's Promise that one "that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" ( Genesis 15:4); but Isaac's birth was according to God's Promise.

Hello Ellen. There is no verse to assist you about 'ushering' (and this I take to mean, to guide folk concerning the Church or to assist them to their seats). This position did not exist in the early Church (as in the New Testament), so there would be no reference to such a service in a Fellowship.

The only references I can think of that the Church can appoint as assistants, are found in Acts 6:1-6, where the apostles felt that their ministry was being diverted from the Word of God to looking after the physical needs of others (such as to the widows needing help). And the other mention of this type of ministry, which comes under the umbrella of 'deacon', or a part of the office of the 'diaconate', is found in 1 Timothy 3:8-13, concerning the character & Christian witness of those men so employed.

Many people read from the Bible and scan over many words without ever knowing what some words mean, such as: iniquities, transgressions, tresspasses and sins. I have heard people say they are all synonymous. If that were true then why wouldn't the scripture just use one word ?

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c. Matthew 24:29:31 does indeed show Jesus coming in the clouds as does 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17, but the difference is that in the Matthew verses, His descent is ultimately to come onto the Earth (His 2nd Coming) to gather His Elect to reign on Earth, but the 1 Thessalonian verses show the Church rising into the clouds to be with Christ, & not on the Earth. I guess that is why it is referred to as a 'harpazo', a snatching away of His Church, who is to be shielded from God's Wrath (Tribulation) falling on them. In His 2nd Coming, there is no 'harpazo', just a gathering together of the Elect. Revelation 19:11-21 speaks of what appears to be, Armageddon. This is Christ's 2nd Coming, for war, for collection of the Elect & the Marriage Supper on Earth. So yes, the Matthew 24 & Revelation 19 passages appear to be the same event, though the former speaks of His Coming & the latter giving more detail to His Person & that great final War.

Thanks again Jimbob, this discussion has been very fruitful & to also learn that a 'post-tribulation rapture' can actually apply to a 'post-trib/pre-Wrath' understanding (which is yours). I've always, maybe mistakenly, understood that the post-trib position required believers to not only experience the anti-Christ's reign of terror on them but also the full extent of God's tribulations/Wrath before they are gathered together for the Millennium rule of Christ. Hence my thought that yours was more a mid-trib one, or at least somewhere within the last three & half years of Daniel's last week of seven years. Blessings.

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b. Verses to show that God's Wrath is included in the (Great) Tribulation: I gave some in my last comment; but from Revelation chapters 6 to chapter 18 we read of the various Judgements of God (Seal, Trumpet, Bowl) & events during that time. I realize that some have attempted to place some of the earlier judgements into our present timeframe, but I won't go into that here. As well, 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9 speaks about the 'restrainer' who keeps the anti-Christ from appearing. If the Restrainer is God's Spirit as I hold to (or, as you believe, the two witnesses, & we can discuss this further), then this act of the restrainer's revelation assumes that God has commenced Earth's countdown, by now giving Satan, the anti-Christ & his side-kick, free reign on the Earth, when once the Spirit withheld Satan from having his full control over men. The Church, believers, their prayers, the Gospel's Power, & more, are Truths of the Presence & Working of the Holy Spirit. Then comes a sudden removal to allow anti-Christ (Satan incarnate) to gain full control. Therefore, I see that God's Wrath is already manifested by this act alone, which of course culminates in the final outpouring of His Wrath ( Matthew 24:29 cf Revelation 15 & 16). So, I do agree with you concerning the outpouring of God's Wrath in those last days of the Great Tribulation, but I see that it will have already begun when God determined to remove His Restrainer.

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I agree Jimbob, our early Church teaching would normally have great influence on what we believe today (I first went to a Fellowship that preached almost weekly on Christ's coming/rapture, & the Pastor often said of himself, 'I won't see death because the Lord's coming is so near'). And we believed him & waited patiently for the Lord Jesus. He left this Earth over thirty years ago & still no rapture, so clearly his hope was certain but his assessment of the world's events & God's Timing were incorrect. So there's error to be noted. I believe that when I was saved much later in October 1979 (in my mid-20s), & then had a yearning to apply myself wholly to the reading & study of God's Word (even leaving paid employment to do this for six months), I had to also 'attempt' to cancel out what I was taught, but learn Truths from the Bible itself & then re-introduce those earlier teachings if I could now see them clearly in the Word. So, what I've written earlier to you in support of my belief is largely from the Scriptures I've considered & not from earlier exposure to this doctrine (in fact, some of these Scriptures weren't even addressed, if I remember correctly).

So, to your three questions:

a. I don't see Revelation 14:14-16 ("harvesting") as that of the Church's rapture. 'Jesus thrust in His sickle & the earth was reaped'. Then two angels appear (one with a sickle, the other having "power over fire"). Clearly, these angels were engaged with gathering the "clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God" (this might allude to the battle at Megiddo). So what happened when Jesus cast in His sickle? When the earth was "reaped", what took place? The possible answer is in Revelation 14:13, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." (from henceforth). This is not the Church, but those who are martyred under & following (henceforth) from the beast's reign. I don't see a rapture in this passage.

Well said, Mel8,

If we assume that most people on here mean well and wish to speak about what they know to be true then we can be open to listening. If we do not agree with what someone says, we can respond back or just let it go. Being prayerful is key in discerning if and how to respond. This site is a learning place for us. We learn about the Scriptures and God who inspired them. We learn from and about others. We also learn for and about ourselves as we consider the views of others. I try not to read too much into what somewhat writes, but wish to take posts at face value and believe that the person is being upfront and honest about what they think. I try to speak to what someone has stated and not to what I think is someone's motives or evaluate someone's spiritual walk. I pray for those I interact with on here and especially for the prayer requests of others.

p.2 Ronald Whittemore Rev.19:7-9 (7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for ((the marriage of the Lamb is come)), and his wife hath made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be ((arrayed in fine linen, clean and white)): for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (while True Believers in the Son are at the marriage supper of the Lamb being feed by the Lamb, the wrath of God is being poured out on the non-believers of the Son which were left on the earth. When Jesus returns on a white horse He will end the wrath of God and begin His 1000 year Millennial reign on the earth. Rev.19:11-15 (11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written that no man knew but he himself. (13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (In verse 8 the wife is clothed in fine linen, clean and white, then in verse 14 the armies that come with Him are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. This is the church coming back with Jesus to start His 1000 year reign! Also at this return He (treadeth the winepress of the fiereness and wrath of Almighty God. The word (treadeth) is #3961; it means to trample, tread (down, under foot) This proves the wrath of God was being poured out on earth during the time of the marriage of the Lamb.

Wher would I find a verse on ushering

Where in the bible does it say that same sex relationships are against god

Hi Jimbob,

I have enjoyed your' and Chris' discussion and this is not to say I know anything and hope you don't mind. Just another understanding for study. I will only address one thing, being taken to heaven. I believe you and Chris agree on, just at different times.

I love this site and the people on it. The end times: we have been told to endure unto the end and for many of us living today that will be our death before Jesus returns, and how things unveil will not affect us, we will be asleep. What if we are still here when the end starts what are we looking for? Some things have not been revealed, so we must be ready to face anything by standing strong in our faith.

We must with an open mind study with prayer. Like the first thing Jesus said to His disciples on Mount Olive when they asked Him about the temple being destroyed. "Take heed that no man deceive you."

If we are still living when the end starts, what if it is different than what we are looking for? Are the last members of the Church more worthy to be spared than the first members of the Church? Millions of believers have been killed for their faith, by Jews, Romans, other nations, by the Roman Church, and if you read history, they continued the death penalty for what they considered heresy after the reformation, and today they are still being killed for their faith.

In 1 Thess. 4 where the understanding of the rapture of the Church and are taken to heaven. In 1 Thess. 4 the people were concerned the believers who had died will not be resurrected and be part of the kingdom because the ones living would prevent that. Paul's answer in 1 Thess. 4:15-18 was to comfort them that would not happen. It says and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Where in these verses, does it say after we meet Jesus in the air we go to heaven? No bible verse I have found, in the Old or New, says we go or are taken to heaven after the resurrection.

Where is the destination of the gathering?

God bless,

RLW

Am so sorry that was not the intention that you all should now all believe the way you describe it about me.

We who have received the Holy Ghost know and watch out. After all, we go as slaughter victims every day. Many are tormented and bound, and even killed for their faith.

That's what I'm saying, we have the law in our hearts now. Not on stone boards.

Some have not experienced this unfortunately.

Jesus says in Matthew 15:1-20 iv got this today. Dear friend sometime its difficult to wrigt some words. And believe that everyone understands what one means, my fault. Please forgive me Also for the long wait for answers. Have been a bit busy. God bless us all in Jesus holy name, love u in Christ.

And let's all put Lord Jesus first of all, Amen

Hallelujah Amen!

Thx Alex 1900. Goodly word of the Holy Spirit. Love you in Christ.

Matthew 15

Adam and Eve's children would have married each other. Eve is given a prophetical title in Gen 3:20 as, "the mother of all living." There is no law against this at this time and also something different genetically sense people had such long lifespans. Hope that helps.

A call to Revival. for each of us to stir each his/her own heart up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

God loves us more than any other ever could.

When God's favor over one's life to is absent or is diminished, then we must "strengthen those [points of character] which are as though dying away' [see Letters to

The Churches Rev. 3]

till Jesus can testify that He finds our works to be perfect

from a divine perspective.

Selfish pride is very destructive; through humility we practice mutual Edification as a church.

To become free from sin, self and the world, let us turn our minds and hearts to Him Who gave Himself for us and rose again.

The Lord "opens their ears in affliction" (quote from Job) as depicted in first chapter of Joel

and then we're prepared to be longsuffering, courteous.

Selfishness is not beneficial to the testimony of Christianity.

So as God does a thorough cleansing work in order to purify us as His people, may we remain fervent in love to God and to the brotherhood of Christ

revelations 5:9

GiGi Thank you for those kind words. Everyone should be respectful of others no matter what differences we have in how we interpret scripture. But there is only one Truth, the Word of God Is that Truth and the Holy Spirit has to leading us to find that Truth. Thats why its so important today to not be lead by our teachings from other men, to the point we think everything we think we know, or have been taught is the Truth. I would say I've learned more from studying the Bible in the last year than I did in the many years of my past studies. The Word of God Is Alive today!! The prophecies are being revealed and fulfilled like never before, which is proof we are living the Lastdays NOW. Stay strong in you Faith, God Bless you GiGi.

I have been having thoughts of suicide what kind of versus are there

what is the name of the forbidden

fruit of knowledge of the fruit ADAM AND EVE DID EAT

Chris Again I really appreciate you replying. You have no need to be sorry, we do see scriptures in a different way, but Thank you Chris. A lot of how we see them is from what we have been taught in the past. I think you have agreed with that in one of your previous comments if I'm not mistaken. We all need to be completely openminded to Truth IF we expect to be lead by the Holy Spirit because the Word of God is Alive today. The proof of that is we can read the same scriptures many times and the Spirit will show us what He wants us to know from that scripture when He wants us to know it. We will never know it all, or have full understanding while in our flesh bodies. The Word Is Alive today! (Heb.4:12) Now I should say I'm sorry, but I have a few questions again if you don't mind answering them Chris. (1st question). What, or when could Rev.14:14-16 be, if its not the harvest of the church, which is what many call the rapture? (2nd question) Can you provide any verses that show the wrath of God is (included in) the great tribulation? I see them as being (totally different time periods) and have provided many scriptures to show they are not the same. (3rd question) Can you explain why Mt.24:29-31 and 1.Thes.4:16-17 have so many things in common, it looks like they are describing the same event (as the Lord descending from heaven (not coming to the earth), the coming in the clouds, the sound of a trumpet, and a gathering together) yet Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-17 which is the return of Christ riding a white horse do not have (any) of these things in common? Again if I'm not mistaken you believe Mt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-17 to be the same event? I do thank you for being so respectful Chris, it truly is a good thing to hear how others interpret these scriptures when we can have a discussion without disrespecting one another. I am thankful for that! May God Bless you Chris, and all those who seek His Truth in this group, and patiently await the return of our Lord!

The ENTIRE Bible is the Word of God , it is full of the Gospel message in EVERY book . God has preserved His Word for our benefit . It is all about Jesus and the new covenant . If some people have not yet reached the stage of understanding that then that's ok , they will get there in God's good time . Meanwhile they should not be disparaging towards others and dismiss what they cannot yet appreciate . May God grant us all eyes and ears to see and hear Him everywhere in our lives and in the lives of others .

If Adam and Eve were the first people on the earth, who was the woman who married Cain? Where did she come from? What is her lineage?

Thank you.

Chris,

Part 3

So allow me to ask some specific questions, if I may.

Where in the Bible do you find the instruction that we are not to go beyond the a LITERAL account to find the underlying Gospel message?

Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL ceremonial Laws that the the Nation of Israel was commanded to obey?

Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL account of the Book of Ruth or Ester or Job

Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL accounts of the raising of Lazarus from the dead and the other miracles that Jesus performed?

Where do you find the scriptural instruction not to look for the Gospel message in the very LITERAL account of 1 Kings 18?

If this is to be our Hermeneutic, we need to have a scriptural basis, don't you think?

Jesus was not about death but about life as he said my words are Spirit and life...1 st Cor, 2:14 kjv....But the natural man receiveth not the things of God for they are foolishness to him....He only delights in the letter a killer....The literal meaning of the bible...The lesser light...is the letter a killer....Your fathers ate manna from heaven but they are all dead...The law ...This is that manna that if man eats he will neva die...which is the greater light the LIVING WORD ...The New Covenant ...That bread from heaven...A LIVING BEING THE H.G. Our new hearts and new spirits etc That has to be born in us via hearing his living words...The New Birth is all spirit nothin literal about him....The definition of literal means without mataphor or parable....But without a parable speak he not unto them...Impling the real meaning is hid from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes....Our new born the H.G. that Child of PROMISE....The spirit of very God....The O.C. was somewhat literal...But there was no eternal life under the O.C..Without the blood of Gods lamb...that New Covenant there is no eternal life.

..When Jesus said my words are spirit and life implies the carnal man cannot receive it...He can only receive the letter a killer a literal meaning which is death as Most All of Churchanity is dead.....They delight in dollars and materialistic things....Simply b/c they are carnally minded....And the spiritual things are foolishness to the carnally minded....1 st Cor.2:14....For the carnal man receives not the things of the spirit for they are foolishness....But how many Churches are teaching we must take the bible literal....They don't realize that Jesus says my words are spirit and life....Satan is now standing in the holy places when you think the bible is all literal....And Jesus says to run to the mountains when you see this great abomination of desolation standing in the holy places..But God is gonna pour out of his spirit on all flesh...amen GB.

I do not believe for 1 second that we should take the bible literally under this New Covenant....Its the living word that is spirit and life...The literal word is the letter which is a killer....The literal word is the letter without the spirit....Its the spirit that opens our hearts and minds....The ground has to be opened and only the spirit can do that.... 2 Cor. 3:6....He has made us able ministers of the New Covenant, Not of the letter, the literal meaning....But of the spirit the H.G. A LIVING BEING...Our new innerman Christ in us the hope of glory.

Chris,

Part 2

To continue a bit.

The historical-grammatical view is why some believe that the Old Testament is primarily for the Jews and the

New Testament is primarily for us today. So we should pay more attention to the New Testament than the Old. That is not taught in the Bible.

Also the Red Letter additions of the Bible are implying that the words the Jesus spoke are somehow more important, more the word of God, than the rest of the Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth.

And that God has a special salvation plan for the nation of Israel, for those of Jewish descent, than for other nationalities. That is not taught in the Bible.

The Bible alone and in its entirety is the word of God and is for us today.

Chris,

What you expressed is pretty much what I expected. And I disagree with much of what you said as I'm sure you have gathered from my posts on the subject.

I do not find any declaration in scripture that supports the historical-grammatical hermeneutic. Although this is the approach that the New Testament churches have used for most of the Church Age as I understand.

This approach tries to determine what was in the mind of Paul or Luke or Isaiah or Jonah and what they were trying to express to their specific audience and culture. It unfortunately pushes to the side the fact that the Bible has ONE AUTHOR and that is God Himself. That Christ IS the WORD OF GOD. Every word and phrase in the Bible, in the original autographs, was chosen specifically by God Himself; not by the human scribe. And our goal is to discover what God Himself is teaching us; not Paul or Jeremiah or Luke. And we can and should be looking for how God used a word or a phrase in, for example, Jeremiah to understand a passage in Romans.

It also does not recognize that Christ spoke in parables and that WITHOUT A PARABLE SPOKE HE NOT. And this is not limited to those passages where He specifically declares that a passage is a parable. And that God speaks in parables to both REVEAL and HIDE truth. See the passages I have quoted previously.

So ultimately this is why God commands us to "compare scripture with scripture" to understand what God is teaching in a particular passage. And this includes both the IMMEDIATE context and the context of the ENTIRE Bible.

The Bible ALONE and it's ENTIRETY is the WORD OF GOD.

Thank you Jimbob for taking the time to pore through my submission, though I'm sorry that you weren't able to see what I see in the Scriptures. From the many other views we get on this subject, we see that we all can have our different Scriptures that show us how we should perceive these last days.

Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).

So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.

The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.