Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 337

indeed Jaz, the enemy has done a masterful job in causing the twisting of scriptures, as he always has. Much of it has come to pass already, from the rise of the "Holy Roman Empire", the crusades, Ottoman empire and rise of Islam.. etc. Let us "watch and be ready", as our Lord and savior Jesus taught us.

Day of Regeneration (1 of 3)

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt.19:28)

This is a promise of the Son which must accepted as yea . "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us." (2 Co.1: 20). Everyone who suffered loss shall receive hundredfold.. The verse following the key text includes everyone so service of saints hold both civil and ecclesiastical authority."And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." The testimony of Jesus Christ revealed to John through his angel therefore includes this, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."(Re.1:6)

So the Messianic prophesy addresses "thy people" and what does He promises his Son? "The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek".(Ps.110:1-4). The phrase 'forever' is a tag the Spirit has placed to indicate the Son as intended. The Lord's prayer ends with this phrase and Amen refers to the faithful and true witness, the Amen of divine promises. There is no temple in the new heaven and the earth. Instead it is on the holy mountain of God, Zion "for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."(Is.56:7). Israel shall be cast out into the outer darkness, "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" ( Luke 13:28-29) By literalism of imposter churches the advocates of Israel would make the outer darkness seem lit. (2 Co.11:14-15)

Prayers of David: Introduction to types of prayers

Psalms in general written to SONGS. We seem to have lost the meaning of singing Psalms as was done up until the time of Christ.

I just learned recently of the Psalms sang around Passover that no doubt were linked to the King of Glory and His sacrificial atonement at Calvary. In these writings; of course we have praise; what are called "royal" psalms as well as Messianic ones where Christ was exalted to fulfill certain promises such as seen describing his death in Psalm 22. We also have what are called "impreccatory" Psalms which ask for God to take vengeance on enemies. As a general prayer against our enemies it is certainly fitting today. For specific individuals; we can cry out for the Lord to deal with people any way He deems fit. With the focus today on seeing people saved; this could make prayers for destruction of an individual something we should avoid at least directly. We should seek to see someone saved as long as they live; even if we ask for them to be imprisoned or punishment by the law exacted on them. The exception will be in the Tribulation with the lawless one; the man of sin who is destined for perdition as we get some inkling of the prayer of the martyred saints in; I believe chapter 7.

The idea of praising God whenever we initiate communication with Him certainly is made evident through Psalms in particular and we shouldn't miss that concept. Showing true adoration for the Lord certainly could incline Him to act; and of course if we aren't wholehearted perhaps the Lord holds back as well; that is particularly true when we withhold forgiveness from people. We see this especially from Matthew 6:14-16. Psalm 51 also discusses the humble and contrite spirit which I mention often. Since David was a man after God's own heart (first seen in 1 Samuel 13:14).

I may discover some more concepts. Since I'm doing a Psalms nursing home study I may begin there or in 1 Samuel.

Agape; RP

Prayers of David: Introduction

I haven't yet assimilated the massive scope of material related to David's prayers from Psalms; Chronicles and the book of Kings yet. I thought I would explore some major themes before delving into specific prayers. I previously got into descriptions of some of the types of Psalms. It is hard to dissect sometimes from what is prayer and what is other material. Here are some concepts

"Declarations". This is a topic I briefly may have mentioned some time ago in regard to truth and error. David would declare promises from God's covenants and then invoke Him to bring it to fruition. This theme was repeated by Daniel in the book bearing his name in regard to the return from exile after 70 years of captivity; by Moses in the desert and no doubt in other examples. Of course what it doesn't mean is making our own proclamations are trying to strongarm God to achieve our will even if we use scripture and twist it or violate the original meaning to do so. It doesn't "invoke" blessings either; perhaps if something is prayed with a pure heart that will result in God's favor leading to a blessing. God will not violate His own ordinances on sin; instead will bring a curse to those who claim covenant with Him and insist on retaining sins or praying in order to fulfill desires through sinful activity.

Promises. This is similar to a covenant declaration but usually based on an individual revelation from the Lord. It is too bad that Abraham didn't spend more time praying before trying to circumvent God's plan for offspring through Sarah. We can see this with God's assurances to Gideon as we discussed before which he needed further proof of before going to battle. Many times of course we can relate to David's prayers when it seemed he was about to be cornered for good and killed by Saul's army or Saul himself. God preserved David's life and answered these prayers; if for no other reason than to establish him as rightful king

Concluding remarks on priority levels of scripture

As we look through the less important facts and figures of the Bible on the surface or face value; we begin to see how it ties into the primary themes; applications; doctrines and ultimately the whole grand scheme God is "staging" throughout human history to the inevitable "finale" when He returns to set things straight. In a way it is like a screen play the way God's plans end up. The difference; of course is that it is very real; not a feigned comedy or tragedy such as the Greeks liked to perform with masks either smiling or frowning to elicit a response. We all are involved in a life and death struggle; with ourselves; and related to our physical lives and spiritual "essense" as it were. This; of course is just an analogy; and a poor one in that we shouldn't see God as the "puppet master" behind the scenes or a Wizard of Oz type madman behind the stage controlling the set. (We'll leave that performance to Satan himself who likes to control the set while he himself is chained into a controlled area).

Also; I will admit for myself that I often think of familiar surroundings and situations when reading the Bible; having only seen pictures and a few videos of the Holy land and obviously not living 2000 or more years ago. This may be what we would call a secondary theme; that of people living an agrarian life where one's ox or donkey was of great importance; where women were in general no better off than slaves; where horrible tortures were not really considered abnormal and where people travelled a LOT more slowly than today. There can be misinterpretations such as Nahum 2:4 in regards to some deeper meaning to chariots jostling as representing cars in urban settings today. Nonetheless; Solomon stated that there was "nothing new under the sun" ( Ecclesiastes 1:9). Sin and rebellion haven't gone away; they may have found new ways to more quickly satisfy these carnal desires but are always present.

Concluding thoughts for now on the discussion of determining priority of importance of particular scriptures.

God; in His infinite wisdom created us all in different ways whether in our original fallen nature or after we are "born again".

We are all interdependent; so there needs to be interaction along with our life spent in solitude with the Lord devoting time to prayer; study of the Word and just listening to God. Without purposely trying to make things even more confusing; I would propose that the Word is structured with a lot of seemingly unimportant details; genealogies and stories that in time help us to piece together the whole picture of God's Providence and hence bring out in the Word and ultimately in our own lives things which become part of us as we meditate on the Lord day and night ( Joshua 1:8). A wise guide will likely lead a new convert to the Gospels; then commonly to Paul's Epistles before getting into the Old Testament in detail (one exception being the Creation and fall of man in the start of Genesis). This is good advice for a nonbeliever but we should not be constrained to this plan for someone; for instance truly seeking out God's truths in places like Revelation or perhaps some of the Old Testament prophets. In fact for a person of Jewish heritage it is probably best as several evangelists do in Israel today (Zev Porat as one example) to go directly to the Old Testament first (especially the taboo passage in Isaiah 53.)

These days; of course we can't assume any of the doctrines which a couple generations ago were never or hardly ever questioned are still held. These include but not necessarily limited to the inerrancy of God; the physical reality of an eternal heaven and hell; God's promises to national Israel still being valid today; the Millennial reign; or PreMillennial Pretribulation rapture. Admittedly these last three subjects were throughout much of the Reformed era and in Catholic traditions before that not believed.

Yes Brother , historical context is massively important . Isaiah chapter 14 is a prime example of this importance . A fairy tale has sprung up from this chapter and that can potentially be very dangerous . I have recently come to be convinced in my own heart and mind , quite suddenly and from no where , after reading the Bible for many years and desperately studying in particular the book of Revelation , that the vast majority of it has already happened . We are just waiting for the fulfillment of the last three or four chapters . I have been driving myself crazy trying to understand every last verse and put the pieces together but every time I would take one step forward and two back ! A couple of months ago while reading it (again) and torturing myself , peace suddenly descended upon me out of no where and my heart told me : it's all in the past , there's just the end to come . I've not had any doubts about it for one second , I no longer stress myself out about it , reading as many different explanations as I can find , dissecting each one and finding bits of truth in this one but other bits in that one etc . I cannot explain the relief and peace that came over me and is still with me , after almost thirty years of Bible reading I'm 100 per cent confident at assured without any doubt that the vast majority of the book of Revelation is past . We are in the very last days and just waiting for our Redeemer to return to earth to judge the nations and reward accordingly . I'm sure there are many who will disagree with me and that is their perogative , but they shall be wasting their time and energy trying to convince me otherwise . This peace regarding the book of Revelation is palpable . I feel it deep within me and because of it , I am at peace with that particular book . For the first time in thirty years ! Thanks be to God .

Further discussion on definitions for secondary themes; applications and doctrines.

Besides UNIVERSAL rules with examples such as I posted in my last message about marriage regulations; murder would also be something which demands justice as a universal law.

What I will call CASE SPECIFIC tenants are not going to determine whether we are truly saved or not but are primarily appropriate for confessing believers. Sin is sin; but we shouldn't expect people to stop cussing; drinking; gambling or doing other vices that aren't at least strictly forbidden in scripture. Also things which are impossible become possible such as not loving the world or anything in it ( 1 John 2:15). These issues also could determine the lifespan of an individual and be considered more in the category of general wisdom. Someone who is habitually overeating is doing more harm to their bodies (in general) because of what is in reality a soul issue; whereas someone sleeping around is primarily hurting their soul. In either case physical health concerns can develop simply living in a perishable vessel.

Perhaps the classification here could be something that is associated with but not directly linked to a primary doctrine. Showing hospitality such as described in Hebrews 13:2 ties into the concept of loving God (1st commandment0 and loving your neighbor as yourself. Since it would be more difficult for a homeless man to be able to offer much in the way of hospitality it is somewhat case specific.

The third category may be something that is POSSIBLY related to a primary tenant but can't be strongly proven. Such could be a person who holds to a certain diet mentioned as ceremonially clean in the Old Testament. One could argue this is to honor the "Temple" where the Spirit now resides ( 1 Cor. 6:19-20). A more controversial issue is the day of worship. We could make an argument for the original day of rest or the first day of the week but we must remember Collossians 2:16!

In considering what I am calling "secondary" themes and applications in scripture; some definitions would probably be helpful.

We probably need to have a whole subdivision of the term "secondary" as nothing in the inspired Word of God is for naught.

The simple approach would be to have "tertiary" issues included for things such as eschatology; ceremonial laws and scientific validity of various health regulations; lists of names which aren't directly in the genealogy of Christ; etc. But of course; when we do this we add to the problem of correctly classifying something as one or another without considering the "gray areas" in between.

Perhaps secondary themes are easier to define. We could point out any facts in the Bible as to family situations; names and numbers of offspring; locations where certain events with associated details are mentioned and all the varieties of personalities with the characters mentioned throughout the entire 1500 year or so timespan of the writings; which involve about 4000 years of human history. Again; we have the issue of a theme being a lesson to further draw out the truths in the laws of God; hence we indirectly use these examples to apply to our lives; primarily to avoid sins and similar consequences in our own lives and hopefully find an example or two we can emulate and relate to.

In terms of application let's start to divide this way.

SECONDARY but attached to a primary application or doctrine. This would be repentance and saving faith LEADING to baptism as one example. These would also be directly meant and clearly understood as a moral law. I would further divide this into a universal law (such as the covenant involved in marriage which I consider of primary importance for that reason); and how we respond depending on our individual situation (married or unmarried). Personally I would argue for illegitimate divorce and remarriage as a primary issue but am aware many would disagree.

Richard,

oops accidentally pushed sent instead.

To continue

Your posts challenge me to seriously consider the topic you present, to have my thinking be guided by the Holy Spirit, and to respond in ways that may help others. Like you, I don't "preplan" my responses to posts. I ust ask the Spirit to give me the best words and to guide my writing to make sense, be accurate, and to cause others to think more deeply on the revelation of God in Scriptures. Like you, I just let my thoughts flow into the posts as prompted by the Spirit.

I urge you to keep posting. You are doing well. If the Spirit prompts you to post and to post often, then do so! We do not need to be super eloquent, nor try to be anyone other than who we are in humility and appreciation for how God has made us and formed our thinking. We are iron sharpening iron, and that is so good for us. You be you, and I will be me , and together we build each other up in the faith once and for all passed down by the saints. We are all blessed by these saints who obediently allowed the Holy Spirit to inspire their writing of Scripture and their teaching and preaching as the Church was planted all over the Mediterranean world of their time and wherever the Lord sent them, as Thomas was sent to India and others were sent to northern Africa.

Be blessed today. It is the day that the Lord has made. Rejoice and be glad in it!

Going to garden today with my family. Have to repot perennials. So that means mixing up more potting soil and hopefully these ones will begin to thrive once again. I get a lot of joy from growing plants and flowers, digging in the dirt, and being outside. Simple joys, I guess, but rewarding.

Oh, Richard you are doing well in your postings. They make me think about the topic and let the Spirit bring to mind Scriptures that are relevant to what you are posting. They challenge me to

Rainwalker

As you and ALL know, the prophecy - Daniel 7:7-8- is revealing about the fourth Empire- the dreadful and terrible, and strong Roman Empire- diverse from the Greek, Persian and Babylonian kingdoms that were before it. As you and all know, the Roman Empire was specifically and genuinely a GENTILIC Empire, but there was also a completely alien being, or nation, in the Gentile Roman Empire: It was ISRAEL, descendants of Abraham. For this reason the prophecy reveals Israel as an APPENDIX linked to the Roman Empire as 10 other independent powers, DESCENDANTES OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC and JACOB, prophetically represented by 10 horns, which in turn represents the 10 toes of the statue, part of iron, and part of clay- Daniel 2:42. In Daniel 2 , Israel, the clay- Isaiah 64:8-, is represented by 10 toes of the feet of the Nebuchadnezzar's estatue.

The roots of the Gentile Beast of sea, the Papacy, a religious MONSTER having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns 10 crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, the main partner of the red Dragon- Revelation 12:3-4 & 9, yeah, the roots of the Gentile Beast of sea-the Papacy, are described in Revelation 13:2. In this current decade must be elected the last Pope, the next, and to this last Pope the dragon- Revelation 13:11-, will give him his Power, and his Throne(in JERUSALEM), and great Authority. Both as a RELIGIOUS AND SATANIC MONSTER-Catholicism and Judaism-iron and clay-, both will establish an Universal and religious kingdom- Daniel 2:41-44 combined with Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2. Take a look.

There will be a terrible spiritual War in the Earth from now on- Revelation 16:13-15.

GET READY

Revelation 21:8 - The fearful(COWARDS), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Amen Brother Chris!

John 3:18 belongs to Jews Gentiles and the Church.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God bless you!

Happy Mothers day to all you Mothers on this site.

May the Lord bless you this day and many more!

Hey Oseas, historical context is of upmost importance in this section. The fourth beast was the Roman Empire, while the "little horn" that came from among it was the rise of the office of the papacy. Daniel was shown this "succession of empires" using these symbols, whereas king Neb was shown the succession in the form of the statue back in ch 2.

Jo.1:1-In the beginning was the Word,the Word was with GOD,the Word was GOD.

The Word of GOD is from everlasting to everlasting,the Word is GOD, GOD Himself,self-executing.

Job 22:

15Hast thou marked the old way(century/es before)which wicked men have trodden?

16Which were cut down out of time,whose foundation was overflown with a FLOOD:

17Which said unto GOD,Depart from us:and what can the Almighty do for them?

18Yet He filled their houses with good things:but the counsel of the wicked is far from me.

19The righteous see it, and are glad: and the innocent laugh them to scorn.

20Whereas our substance is not cut down,but the remnant of them the fire consumeth.

21Acquaint now thyself with Him,and be at peace:thereby good shall come unto thee.

22Receive,I pray thee,the law from his mouth(GOD's Word),and lay up his words in thine heart.

23If thou return to the Almighty,thou shalt be built up,thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles.

24Then shalt thou lay up gold as dust( Genesis 2:10-11 ),and the gold of Ophir as the stones of the brooks.

25Yea,the Almighty shall be thy defence,and thou shalt have plenty of silver.

26For then shalt thou have thy delight in the Almighty,and shalt lift up thy face unto God.

27Thou shalt make thy prayer unto him,and he shall hear thee,and thou shalt pay thy vows.

28Thou shalt also decree a thing,and it shall be established unto thee:and the light shall shine upon thy ways

29When men are cast down,then thou shalt say,There is lifting up; and he shall save the humble person

30He shall deliver the island of the innocent:and it is delivered by the pureness of thine hands.

Eze.14

13Son of man,when the land sinneth against me by committing a trespass,then will I stretch out mine hand upon it,and will break the staff of the bread thereof,and will send famine upon it,and I will destroy man and beast forth of it

14Though these three men Noah,Daniel,and Job were among them, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousnes

Memorial in heaven- The Angel of His presence. (3 of 3)

In the inaugural vision the four living creatures appeared to Ezekiel, Looking up it showed the prophet over them "was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it." God was on the throne but still He rode upon the wings of the wind in a manner of speaking. Ps.104:3-4

How he executes justice and judgment is illustrated by the living creatures. The important point is to note the man and angel nexus. Without heaven and heaven being in agreement no scale can be applied to determine the righteousness of God. The Angel of his presence is represented by cherubim in the second vision. The number four denotes the Word as the Law. It is thus the holy city of God is measured in Re.21:17

"As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle."(Ez.1:10) We are shown the same with slight alternations, in Ch.10. "And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle./ And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar."(10:14-15).

We see the angel appearing to the parents of Samson and to Gideon. "And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?" (Jud.13:18) Yet the children of Belial would want to put names over what the Holy Spirit has chose not to reveal. Holy Spirit as tongues of fire point out to the rapture. "For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar." (13:20)

Memorial in heaven-Wings (2 of 3)

" For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." ( John 1:170 Recalling the Ps.89 quote gives us mercy and truth going 'before thy face." Taken together we are witnessing here the spirit of Christ which are symbolised by eyes."And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."(Re.5:6) Ezekiel also gives us the vision of God, "And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above."(1:22). 'The terrible crystal' evokes the sea glass on which the throne was set in Re.4.

Coming back to the memorial we know the six wings of the four beasts shall never change. The four living creatures testify that th Law of Moses shall be replaced by grace and truth with the Advent of Jesus Christ. This is reinforced by the night vision of Daniel, "The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked"(Dan.7:4). The two wings records not only the cessation of monarchial rule in Israel but the installation of Christ as the Lord. This are what two eagle wings in Re.12 signify. "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child./ And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (12:13-14). The two wings signify grace and truth. The remnant in Israel and the left out church shall face tribulation but God has prepared for them a way.

Trinity is not only body but also Spirit and soul. The four living creatures help us to understand the Spirit of Christ and Soul are forever in tact.

Memorial in Heaven- wings (1 of 3)

God has set His throne. God "who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:/Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire".(Ps.104:3-5)

In the last series on Trinity St John gives as a memorial where seven lamps of fire indicate fire shall test everyman's work on the work. We are His workmanship so the body as a memorial in heaven testifies the tabernacle of God among men leads the salvation plan of God to its finality. New heaven and new earth is how it shall look when the Son has fulfilled his Father's Will.

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."(v.5)

His throne in heaven radiates qualities: Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face."(Ps.89:14) In the inaugural vision of Ezekiel we see God riding 'upon the wings of the wind."(Ez.1:4)

And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire." What does the infolding fire signify? It is sent for specific purpose. Whirlwind coming out of north indicates Judgment. The living creatures are four in number having four wings. "Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man./And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings." They were sent to execute justice and judgment. But the memorial of the four beasts had six wings each. Where did the two wings go? They are revised and in lieu of wings they have two rings full of eyes. "The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel."Vv.16-18)

These represent mercy and truth which goes before his face.

Well; as usual you have a better grasp on the subject with examples from the Bible to back it up. Perhaps it would be accurate to say that the primary APPLICATION of discipleship is with one to one interaction (or small group); and the secondary application is to read about how we are to act in the scriptures. Your example shows this with the parents being the tool to effectively render these truths to be alive in their kids who eventually mature enough to allow them to continue fueling their walk with the Bible and practice it eventually with their own children.

Conceptionally; as well you are more mature than I am. Postulating such an idea perhaps is foolish; as I tend to put down my thoughts in these posts without thinking about it. In one sense I deliberately posted this to get a better idea (learning myself as well as getting people to think about the subject).

I could have examined something like Baptism as a secondary application with initial salvation from God's granting of repentance as the primary one; and also based the thief on the cross as an example. Again it is somewhat nebulous since salvation is always the most important thing (baptism without true faith doesn't save anyone; but yes it is necessary as a declaration of faith and disobeying such an ordinance serious implication our public confession is not right and of course shows poorly as to us being a mature disciple).

Maybe I need to step back from the frenetic pace of these postings. I fear it is too often to garner attention although I don't deliberately set out to put myself on a pedestal or in a spotlight. Is it wrong to wrestle with issues and deliver these messages before taking time to seriously pray about them and seek His face? I do want to press on and continue to minister as well as love His Word by considering many matters on this site. I am doing this realizing in the future I probably won't soon have the time to do this once my parents are deceased. Advice?

Addendum to discipleship.

In my last post after I got wiped out AGAIN the first time I forgot to elaborate on the verse of the servant who said he wouldn't do something and later does; and vice versa. ( Matthew 21:30). We need to test the validity of a true disciple over time not instant following; that concept is also true for identifying who is truly saved; and corresponds with the parable of the "good fruit".

Another thought before I attempt to get into what seems clearly "secondary issues" I will also add to this discussion by stating that someone who is a true disciple has to make the hard decisions to go against church leadership or bring a disciplinary issue up with the church if one on one with a rebellious brother proves futile. This would include and I fear increasingly so these days challenging those who are teaching errant doctrine; no matter how esteemed the minister. If we aren't willing to be jealous for His Name's sake; we may end up with a church being much the same as the Temple was when Jesus had to clear it out overturning the moneychangers tables; that is a house of merchandise that is literally selling out the souls of men under it's roof. This is following in Christ's footsteps; and walking in the Spirit means we love the things He loves; and hate things He hates.

Furthermore; being a disciple means standing up for brothers and sisters who are being persecuted; even to risking our own lives when necessary. I won't give a manual on the subject as it varies depending on the situation we are in; protecting our family and whatever the Lord brings into our lives as a challenge in this area. Nonetheless; it is how we take seriously verses such as Matthew 25:36 which I believe is ultimately fulfilled in the Tribulation which will determine those who are saved by their behaviors when all of God's people are imprisoned or killed for their faith and support anywhere in the world will guarantee our lives are in jeopardy.

Good evening Richard,

To enter into this conversation on the topic of discipleship/evangelism.

Deuteronomy 6:4-8 came to mind as the Israelites were commanded to teach their children according to the ways God proscribed to this chosen nation.

I think that this verse applies to the church in that we are to teach sound doctrine to those who come into the church by faith in Jesus. Since there was not Scriptures printed for all to read and that not all were able to read, it was important for the leaders to read the Scriptures they had access to and to teach what they learned from the apostles in order to encourage growth and maturity among the believers. Just as parents are responsible for bringing their children up in the faith, those who bring are brought into fellowship are to be brought up in the faith taught by the apostles. So, I don't think that either evangelism nor discipleship are primary or secondary, but both are vital to the health of the individual (to hear the gospel and grow in doctrinal knowledge of God and His ways) and the church (to preach the gospel and disciple those who are babes to become mature and able to teach others Scriptural truths). Some are gifted and called more specifically for evangelism and others for discipleship. While it is only by faith that one is saved in Christ, the church is tasked with discipling converts and babes in Christ. Paul did plenty of discipling in his letters to the churches he had planted.

It seems to me that God wills for every believer to grow in their faith and knowledge of the truths taught in Scripture, and, even though we do not need to be perfect in every way to be saved, it is valuable to each believer to be discipled and to learn to feed themselves on the Word, its truths and to grow into a life of willing service to God.

Jesus defined eternal life this way: to know the one true God and Jesus. This involves a right relationship with God, but then we are to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God.

"Camping out" on the theme of Discipleship

29'I will not,' he replied. But later he changed his mind and went. 30Then the man went to the second son and told him the same thing. 'I will, sir,' he said. But he did not go. 31Which of the two did the will of his father?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.

( Matthew 21:29-31).

We see through Romans 8:30 the idea of being called; justified and glorified without any mention of sanctification implied through discipleship. We can look at immature believers in Corinth who likely died in some cases without really being effective disciples. Nonetheless; we want to ensure that as Paul says in Phillipians 3:14 that we run for the prize. Crowns given for ministry; patient endurance or martyrdom don't come easy or to all but nonetheless since it affects our stance and spiritual authority under the King at least for the Millennium if not all eternity these are vital goals for us to pursue!

When we consider the Great Commission and God's calling for us to go and make Disciples of all men in Matthew 28:19-20 we certainly see that emphasized; and that seemingly over the concept of just leading men to Christ which of course is part of what it means to teach all the things Jesus meant and taught to His own on His earthly ministry.

The concept of personal sanctification and becoming separate from the world; therefore is also part of our growth as well as teaching others to be FOLLOWERS of Christ and the sacrificial lives that should accompany their declaration of salvific faith.

It has been stated and I wholeheartedly agree that today the message of coming to Christ is often watered down. This often is to keep attendance up and money coming in from unscrupulous church leaders. It also comes from the misguided notion that we may say something to scare someone off unnecessarily. We must share hard truth with love.

Primary or secondary applications: An open ended question.

In the last few hours I have wrestled with the question of discipleship and whether it is primary or "secondary" in importance.

First of all I need to categorically state that it is still VERY important and indeed necessary if we are ever going to be "sold out" for Jesus to ensure that we truly are disciples; and that of lasting ones that aren't going to walk away like many Jesus challenged on His way to eventually being crucified on the cross. Taking a brief internet survey of this subject there are varying opinions. It seems that one can be saved without being a disciple at least the level of commitment Jesus described. The thief on the cross would be one example; there was no time to work through issues like Jesus did with the 12 Apostles He chose as His primary disciples. The Corinthian church also stands out as a place where immature believers sometimes died before their time and had many other issues; clearly not acting as a mature disciple at least in terms of submitting their lives to the Lord.

The church changed over time; and although other churches also had issues it would seem certainly that the many admonitions written in Paul's Epistles and Peter and John's writings of the same were primarily to build believers up in the local churches to live as worthy of the calling; and hence good disciples.

If we are saved; we are ultimately justified and glorified ( Romans 8:30). We don't see sanctification there as would be expected as a true disciple; but again we certainly need to grow in this way to recieve spiritual rewards in heaven (Phillipians 3:14; also see other verses about crowns for service; ministry; patiently waiting for His appearing; etc.) Just because it doesn't necessarily determine our ultimate fate to lose out on what will be at least for the Millennium if not all of eternity our spiritual position in heaven would hardly be unimportant. I'll leave this open to debate

Conclusion of primary applications and themes of scripture

1 Corinthians 10:11 says: Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

This verse helps to tie in the examples; both good and bad from various characters and narratives in the Bible so that we can understand the temporal and eternal consequences of our actions; and hopefully learn the fear of the Lord as a result. The moral principles of the Lord never change; even if we study the lives of those under the authority of the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant. The souls of all men are mine ( Ezekiel 18:4) states God. Therefore; it is just as true that not one "jot or tittle" of His word will fail ( Matthew 5:18); the spiritual laws in scripture of conduct are as certain as the natural laws that every man lives subject to.

One more point I want to cover before wading into the waters of the subject of secondary themes and applications is that although it usually involves large swaths of scripture and repeated concepts throughout with many cross references most of the time; there are a few key concepts that are rather limited. One which jumps to mind is Christ actually stating that He is the "I am". John 8:58 from what I know is the only place it is explicit; there are other places clearly where it is either implied or meant with the original language; certainly the Pharisees knew this or they wouldn't have tried to kill Jesus 10 times or so before they finally succeeded. More often seen is the unique claims of Christ as being the only way to the Father (I am the way the truth and the life may perhaps means the same thing as my last reference). He also showed this with offering forgiveness of sins which is only something God can do. We see in this what is implied if CORRECTLY interpreted shows much of the primary themes; we could cite the Parables as a good example of this.

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Actually,the SACRIFICE of JESUS SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY when the Beast like a lamb,the MAN of sin,son of perdition(the little horn)sits in the temple of God-JERUSALEM-,shewing himself that he is God-2 Thes.2:4-,then the abomination of desolation will stand in the holy place,THE DAILY SACRIFICE OF JESUS WILL BE TAKE AWAY BY THE JEWISH FALSE MESSIAH in the second half of the last week by 1260 plus 30 days,I would say the current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END with this terrible and SATANIC event through the Jewish false messiah(2Thess.2:9),and the establishment of the abomination of desolation in the holy place or sanctuary.

Revelation 11:1-2 reveals how will be the FIRST half of the last week (1260 days),ended the FIRST half,the false messiah,an esoteric, kabbalistic and spiritist messiah,will be enthroned in JERUSALEM-spiritually called Sodom and Egypt,for 1290 days,the sanctuary will be cast down.

Blessed is he that waiteth,and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.Dan.12:12.Yeah,day 1335,the Ineffable, Wonderful,Indescribable,Unspeakable day,the day 1.335. Hallelujah!

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The sacrifice of JESUS until the current time lasted around 727000 days-THE DAILY SACRIFICE WILL BE TAKE AWAY WHEN THE JEWISH FALSE MESSIAH-THE BEAST LIKE A LAMB( Revelation 13:11-18 and John 5:43-47SIT IN HIS THRONE IN JERUSALEM- THEN THE PLACE OF THE SANCTUARY WILL BE CAST DOWN, as was prophesied by Daniel. Daniel 7:7-8 & 11.

Dan.7:7-and behold a fourth Beast,dreadful and terrible,and strong exceedingly;and it had great iron teeth:it devoured and brake in pieces,and stamped the residue with the feet of it:and it was diverse from all the Beasts that were before it;and it had ten horns.

8-I considered the(10)horns,and,behold,there came up among them another little horn,...and,behold,in this(little)horn were eyes like the eyes of MAN,and a mouth speaking great things. Yea,he(the little horn,by his mouth)shall magnify himself(magnified as God)even to the prince of the host(it is Michael- Revelation 12:7),and by him (by the Jewish false messiah-the little horn)the daily sacrifice will be taken away,and the place of the sanctuary will be cast down.

The false lamb/messiah( John 5:43),he is also a Jew,and he is from one of the 10 tribes of Israel, maybe from the tribe of Dan as Jacob prophesied- Genesis 49:16-17. He shall rise up from the earth-from Israel-from one of the ten tribes of Israel-HE IS THE LITTLE HORN.

The false lamb- John 5:43-has two horns like a lamb.Two horns represent the two kingdoms of Israel,but he will rise up from one of the 10 tribes,as prophesied Jacob. Genesis 49:16-17.

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7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:only he who now letteth will let,until he be taken out of the way.

9Even him,whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The prophecy on the RESTRAINING be taken away,it didn't fulfill yet, of course,but will LITERALLY fulfill in days to come,would say in this current decade,and it only after the end of the FIRST half of the last week,when the next and last Pope be elected,i.e. week 70th Daniel 9:27,actually it will occur only when the Abomination of Desolation be established in the 2nd half of the last week for 1260+30 days.

The current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END with this terrible and SATANIC event,I say through the manifestation of the Jewish false messiah( John 5:43-47, Revelation 13:11, 2Thess.2:9), and the establishment of the Abomination of Desolation in the holy place.

Who is he who now does not let the MAN of sin,SON of perdition,a former Cherub,be manifested among his own people(Israel),and also before the whole Gentilic world?The Complete Jewish Bible-CJB says the MAN of sin is at work secretly,in other words-KJV-,"the mystery of iniquity doth already work",but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining him is taken out of the way.

Well, there are three that bear witness in Earth,the Spirit,the water, and the blood:and these three agree in One- 1John 5:8.The blood is the blood of JESUS that was shed on the cross;the blood of JESUS is the millennial sacrifice of JESUS that REMAINS until the current time for salvation of souls,AND WILL REMAIN until it BE TAKEN AWAY, WHAT WILL HAPPEN ONLY AND ONLY IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE LAST WEEK,WEEK 70th DANIEL 9:27,WHOSE EVENT IS NOT SO FAR FROM THESE DAYS,IT MAY OCCUR IN THIS DECADE .

GET READY.

As an addendum; I used Matthew 24:48 to show how someone preaching about the Lord's soon coming is ridiculed now by fellowservants but also am looking at the theory of someone who misses the Rapture and has to suffer the consequences. Anyone who now is fervant about their love for the Lord (again an inexact analogy to the woman in this chapter longing for the man she would marry) may get a bad rap also. We need to realize that although the parable of the 10 virgins shows they all fell asleep those who were ready were able to rise up and go in the Rapture. Anyway I hope whatever I say in the rest of this study will help; and also wanted to say that I still plan to continue with the series on prayer with David but since it is an extensive project I want to gather some more thoughts in the interim.

Thanks for the inquiry.

Have a nice evening. R.P.

I meant life, not lie. oopsie