Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 296

I believe you're correct Tammy, that the Book of the Revelation does not always appear in chronological order & even if we try & read it as such (with our logical, ordered minds), we can't be absolutely certain of the correct sequence of events, seeing that John received this heavenly vision & Word in a manner appointed by the Lord.

But you've directed my reading to Revelation chapter 14, in which you see "that the saints will be here for the event of the mark of the beast, and after that event, Jesus returns for the harvest". From Revelation 14:6, we read of an angel arriving in the heavens with "the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth". And then further down in verses 12 & 13, we read of "the patience of the saintsthat keep the commandments of God". I assume that these are the verses that convinces you that all believers (saints) will still be here, i.e. the Church pre- & during the Great Tribulation. Yet, if we take the angelic presentation of the Gospel (obviously not needed for the Church, but for the unbelievers at that time of anti-Christ's reign), then maybe the saints of verse 12 are those who were converted through the delivered Gospel, the Lord giving these others opportunity to repent & believe, who may already have taken the beast's mark, and to be saved. Just a thought.

And finally, verses 14 to 20 show the harvesting of the Earth. But who are harvested? In my reading, the harvest is directed to the haters & rejecters of God & are forthwith cast into "the great winepress of the wrath of God" (verse 20). Now, even if the order of events may seem unclear, at least those whom the Lord is referring to, is clear. And yes, both Revelation 15:1 and Revelation 6:17 declare that these sufferings do come from God (from His Wrath) & not resulting from natural occurrences that we see at present; that this time IS God's Wrath being poured out & not something felt at the end. So will the present Church be saved from this Wrath?

Hey Jcolli9.

What you may see on the calendar is Passover as 8 days. Some call it the Feast of Passover and some call it the Feast of Unleavened Bread, some called it that in Jesus' time. That is probably why many times it seems Easter is in the middle. Passover is only one day it is the 14th of Nisan it is a preparation day for the 7-day Feast of the Unleavened Bread.

What is celebrated as Easter the day Jesus was resurrected is the Hebrew Feast of First Fruits. The day we call Palm Sunday the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem was the 10th of Nisan the day the lambs were taken up and held until the 14th Passover day and sacrificed at even, the same time that Jesus died.

I hope this helps if you want more let me know.

God bless,

RLW

The obvious answer to your question is to make sure the Spirit of God has sole residence in the soul of your child. I will make an assumption here that she is a professing believer as well as possessing the Holy Spirit as evidenced by fruit in her life; as her mom you can probably see changes if indeed they exist from who she used to be. Then; of course there has to be no sin that the enemy can use as a legal stronghold.

Most people mention Satan himself; who is only in scripture mentioned to possess Judas Iscariot (although he spoke through Peter in manipulating his thoughts in response to Christ and an attempt to prevent Him going to the cross). He directly gives Antichrist his throne; but it appears the demon Apollyon from the abyss will possess him at that time when he has what appears to be a resurrection.

There is debate on whether a Christian can be possessed or not; or just oppressed. I personally have had demonic attack in my sleep so I would say that can occur; but oppression certainly is quite detrimental as well. Again; besetting sins allow strongholds; the only thing he can do when we are fully submitted to the Lord is affect us from the outside with instigating thoughts (which we will rebuke immediately with spiritual authority when in proper state with God); he also will bring persecution into our lives as well as those who would say pleasant things to draw us away from the Lord.

I would emphasize a repeated theme on my postings; that of being sure that those who you pray with are indeed Spirit filled; and to AVOID all those who are compromised so that you will not for instance; have them lay hands on you and bring demons into your life. (See Acts 13:3). Those who hear His voice will recognize those who God will use to strengthen us and to rebuke the enemy. Also as with Satan the demons can be cast out but not yet sent to the Abyss before the time.

God may use trials also to strengthen your daughter; even the enemy.

Tammy C.

I reviewed my posts and I did not say that anyone on here was reviling me. I don't know where you got that from, since I did not say that. Even so, I think you have spoken to me sensibly and with good intentions, as I have with you. So, thank you. This is the end of my input on this topic today. Have a good day.

How is Easter in the Middle of Passover?

Tammy C.

I appreciate your responses. I have read many things written by King James Only proponents who do speak of other translations as being vile, corrupt, and Satanically inspired. I have read things written by King James Only proponents who have said that those who read such translations can not be saved or that they are deceived by such translations. So, I know that you have not said this. And I appreciate this. Yet, the history of this movement bears out what I have said. I think that this is a good juncture to exit this discussion.

How do I help my daughter to rebuke Satan?

Richard, wow...that is so true. It's funny, because we agree on so much and we're from different camps on the Tribulation. It seems to me, based on your comments that you're prepared either way, no need for any worries of mine. That does set my mind at ease knowing that there are people of the pre trib camp that are prepared no matter what. Thank you. I actually needed that. God Bless!!

Zechariah 13:8 shows how two thirds perish and the other one third of national Israel go through the fire and are thus saved. Again; I will refer to those countless multitudes who go through this time of testing; as either new believers or those left behind (or both).

I referred before to many who are not producing fruit at present. Many I believe are hiding their light or have been rendered out of service by Satan because of legal access due to sin. This would include even Laodicians I would say. Fear of death ( Hebrews 2:15) has been a snare for many; it is something that the blood of Christ through the Spirit can make us overcome. It is surely true that some will when push comes to shove proclaim Christ; it is the cares of this world that for now have ensnared them. Many; of course will fall away and we are not to use such rationale as an excuse to continue in sin trusting that God will show mercy in such a way. The verses I've quoted show how God will reach all His sheep. This is why I am such a proponent of the Pre Trib rapture. True; some who aren't bold now and producing fruit may have it forced on them through the Tribulation (apparently meaing Tribulum or a way to rapidly bring wheat threshed to harvest). It has been proposed that the barley represents the early harvest or firstfruits; and the wheat or main harvest is later. I will get into that if there is an interest at another time and try to give references to others who have worked on that theory. There certainly is no room to be some sort of macho man thinking we will "brave it out" in the "not so bad" first half of the Trib. These are events including a plague that cannot be stopped to wipe out 1/4 of man. Whoever God chooses to purge this way I don't wish it on anyone nor want to endure it myself. Again; it is the demonic attacks on man directly and unrestrained evil where death and hell do prevail ( Rev. 6:8) which contradict ( Matt. 16:18; compare with Daniel 7:9.

Agape.

Tribulation: Declaration vs Preaching the Gospel today.

In today's dispensation (if you don't mind me using this time frame as a proponent of that terminology in the church age at present) we preach on the death; burial and resurrection of Christ. We therefore are "blessed" as Christ referred to Thomas of those who have believed and not seen ( John 20:29). There is a general call to the crowd and to those chosen (such as the more intimate discussions between Christ and His Disciples into the meanings of parables; for instance and other matters).

In the Tribulation as noted in my last post by Revelation 6 there is no need to explain these things; only a declaration to the world of judgments already transpiring and to come; a sort of "signs and wonders" prophetic battle between the side of God's angels and the demons before Christ's final battle settles the score once and for all. I proposed that the Rapture is to wake up the Jewish nation; and specifically activation of the 144,000 for just such a purpose to fulfill the original commission to reach all the cities of Israel which cannot happen until that time ( Matthew 10:23). It is odd that until the time of Christ's initial stages to take back Jerusalem ( Zech. 12:12 but also apparently alluded to on a larger scale in Matthew 24:30) that the Jews will not come to full realization of who Christ is. They at least are deluded until the midpoint of the Tribulation as to the fact Antichrist is not their Messiah and since the world at large knows His identity at the sixth seal it may be that they don't realize they have a need for Him to be their personal Savior but they may start understanding His Lordship over the earth. Thus; I would look at the Tribulation temple to be one that isn't wrong as to the ceremonial aspects; since Antichrist himself desecrates it. Psalm 50:8 seems to show this; albeit many other verses show God's disdain at such things. Those who don't know God will worship the Beast and die.

Concluding thoughts for now on Rapture and reasons for it; as well as Tribulation saints commentary

My proposition is that the final revival or as Joel 2:23 is basically attained in the "signs and wonders" environment which the rest of Joel and much of the O.T. discuss for the end times. As I have stated numerous times of late by the sixth seal ALL will know about God AND Christ on the throne. ( Rev. 6:12-17). This proves judgments of God clearly are poured out with comprehension by all those on earth at the time. Therefore; the Gospel as preached now will be unnecessary; Christ and God will be on one side; and Satan; the False Prophet and Antichrist on the other side. It would appear that with the woman riding the Beast the first part of the Tribulation the false Babylon one world religion will be the primary killers ( John 16:2; which appears to have particular emphasis on those in Israel at that time). Later on; of course the Antichrist destroys the religion and probably one of the headquarters by fire ( Rev. 17:16). I will state that those who are destroyed are naked; and that seems to parallel Revelation 16:15 as well as the fate of the Laodiceans. It appears a remnant will survive most of the Tribulation who don't step out in faith but also hide out from being forced to take the Mark.

The aforementioned verses and others such as similar sounding events in the seal; trumpet and bowl judgments which make us question not just the timing of the Rapture but other events I am not planning to go into a detailed analysis at present. I will state that just because things are hard to understand we shouldn't just place symbolic interpreteations on them; most believers don't with the already fulfilled prophecies when Christ came the first time so we shouldn't do so now with future events. There is as many are aware a time for "Jacob's trouble" or Daniel's 70th Week ( Jeremiah 30:17; Daniel 9:24-27) which seem to indicate the seven years to purge Israel.

Thoughts on the Rapture and timing as well as reasoning/

Note: I can't find the prequel as it were to this thread; so the audience may be limited. I may get into further discussion on the main discussion area but will try to sum things up here.

A major issue here that I have opened the "can of worms" on is; in regard to just who is identified as those dressed in white garments which were made that way through blood ( Rev. 7:14 referring to robes). It certainly can be expected that the witness of the 144,000 will bring many to faith and willing martyrdom. Other verses referring those whose garments were made white make verses such as Revelation 3:4; and Zechariah 3:3 be contrasted with Ephesians 5:27. For if some in Laodicea are naked among other things; surely anyone with a garment in God's presence is saved; although it is much like Jude 1:23 being saved as though through the fire; or 1 Corinthians 3:15 where one suffers loss and not much remains after their works are burned up by and large. In other words I would argue that to have a garment in the first place we are saved; if we allow sin to spot it then there are certain ramifications; including what I propose as missing the reward of a rapture if indeed it is more than just a salvation prerequisite. I would strongly suggest in these last days; there is little fruit being produced; and the Lord of the harvest is looking for it. He will either purge us to produce more fruit ( John 15:2) or as the same verse indicates we are not His child (producing no fruit) and are eventually cut off. Again; we need to broaden our scope and see those who are unbelievers; those judged more harshly for hearing and rejecting the truth; lukewarm believers and those who are producing much fruit. We must as Hebrews suggest; believe God is a rewarder of those things done for Him ( Heb. 11:6). We also should pay attention to those seeking a better country ( Heb. 11:16) of those who willingly gave up their lives for this.

Gigi, Thank you for your explanation, I knew what you meant, but was trying to be tactful while stating it. You've described me. And, I can promise you, I'm far from being cult like or in a cult. I only read the KJV, I believe it's the only Bible inspired by God and it's without error. However, I don't bash my brothers and sisters in Christ that read other versions. I believe you can still be saved while reading another version of the Bible. I think reading any Bible vs not reading one at all is a great thing. We'll just agree to disagree on your opinions here and leave it at that. God Bless

Jema, most concordance have an alphabetical listing of words used in the Scripture. Each word has Scripture references listed after each word with a short phrase after the Scripture reference. So, if I am thinking of a Bible verse, but do not know exactly where it is, then I can look a word of this verse up in the concordance and find the verse I wanted. This is very helpful to me. I have read the Scriptures all my life and I do recall many verses by memory, but I do not always know the exact place in Scripture as to book and verse by memory.

Oops Tammy, I am sorry I meant to say that I did not say that those who read only the KJV are cult-like. Rather I was speaking of those who adhere to King James Onlyism who adhere to the view that the KJV is error-free, re-inspired, and the only true Word of God in this day.

Tammy C. I did not say that the Bible is riddled with errors. I stated that the translations I mentioned, including the KJV are 99.9% accurate in translation from the text they were translated from. The errors that occur are quite minor and do not affect the overall meaning or doctrine put forth in the Bible.

I also did say that those who read only the KJV are cult-like, rather I was speaking of those who adhere to the King James

Onlyism sect that claims that only the KJV is error-free and re-inspired by God when it was translated, therefore bring perfect.

I do understand your admonition to me and I do take it seriously. I do trust that God will help those who are new believers in their approach to the Word. But thanks for the reminder.

Agreed, Tammy

Thank you for your comment Donna, those are really good points. God Bless

Right, many are called and few are chosen. The road is narrow, etc. I do believe we all need to be in a right relationship with God, through His Son Jesus. We need to be born again. I'm excited to see how you sort this all out. God Bless

Hello Jema,

I have heard of them, but do not know much about them. I do know that they contained the book of Isaiah. I will research more on them when I can.

Thanks Richard, I like that you're tackling this topic. Since the topic is futuristic/prophecy, we won't get it 100%, I don't believe anyone has it all figured out. So, I think it's great that we brothers and sisters in Christ can discuss and get as close as we can. God Bless

Part One: The Rapture: Timing and reason for it.

I do my best not to be overly redundant in these posts; I do have some earlier Revelation commentary as to cross references that make a Pre-Trib (or my own variation on it) conclusion. I try to quote references when available; on this post I am assuming most people already have a fundamental understanding of the Bible verses either supporting or against such a viewpoint. I will seek to look to the integrity of the whole Word of God; New Testament and Old. There are a few verses in Isaiah and Psalms which seem to talk of God hiding His people until the indignation be past such as Isaiah 26:20. I used Psalm 40 also to show how many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay as a sort of tie in to verses such as Romans 11:25 on the time of the Gentiles coming "to the full" or other verses in that book on Israel being provoked to jealousy to indicate how a Rapture as well as Resurrection of the saints would finally wake some people up.

The first fundamental concept is interpreting the bride of Christ from the wedding party; and or wedding feast of the Lamb. This makes the discussion of the 10 virgins a warning for all of us; whether it is to make the Rapture; or be ready for Christ's return. My introduction quotes a verse in Revelation 16 which still seems to show that late in the Tribulation some need to be alert to Christ's coming. I think at this point I also want to emphasize something else I stated earlier; that oftentimes there is a tendancy just to separate believers from nonbelievers. This has several issues; first of all it makes us ignore verses such as Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward to another; and many other verses indicating various levels of spiritual fruit production and consequent rewards or lack thereof. ( Matt. 13:8; Matthew 25:14-30; etc). As Paul stated we are to seek the prize of His high calling (Phillipians 3:14). That means many miss out.

Hello Gigi , I'm guessing you already know about the dead sea scrolls ? If not , look them up , very interesting .

Thank you for your comment Tammy. It is nice when there don't have to be fisticuffs on this topic. I hope to present a detailed and balanced perspective. Your point is quite important as to the 10 kings being prepared before Antichrist takes them over; nonetheless they don't reign (or have a Kingdom) until he subdues 3 of them and they co-rule with him in his new world order style dictatorship.

The focus is; indeed on edification of the saints. I will state also; I have been given discernment to have insight and visions as to certain things in the time of the end. Saying God has shown me something; I realize makes me join the crowd of all the true and false "revelations" that have been espoused by others that say they have had a dream and such. Whatever camp you are on as to whether the church goes through part of the Tribulation; most or none understanding just how horrible it will be ( Matt. 24:21) is sobering and leaves us much as Daniel did after having his visions of God.

It is important as I sort of pointed out already to understand how the great harvest of souls in the innumerable multitude ( Rev. 7:9) still eclipses such horrors through victory. The real terror is for the lost who will be attacked directly and tormented by demons as the 5th trumpet clearly states. As you pointed out also deception will be at a peak; and as I plan to reiterate in my upcoming posts; ALL those whose names are not written in the Book of Life WILL worship the Beast. ( Rev. 13:8). Also even the elect would be decieved IF IT WERE POSSIBLE ( Matt. 24:24). My point in shouting is to emphasize the fact that if we are elect we cannot ultimately fall away or be "unsaved". That is another hot topic; which we are discussing in my church small group at present. I am pointing out that again; no matter how you view it the result is the same; some are saved others lost. There are some who live through and others who die victorious in the Trib (most die of course).

TammyC:

The last day has been going on for 2000 years, Paul understood he was living in the last day.

The word of God is written to each person; as you study and read, it's YOU, his church, the SPIRIT of Christ is speaking to, not a collective BODY, your the body of Christ.

Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ TO YOU; his church, his bride.

That (Christ) WHICH IS, and WAS, and WILL BE.

The words of Revelation mean the same TO YOU as it did to the person reading them 1900 years ago.

The words in Revelation are; ALSO, prophecies found in Mosses and the Prophets, Revelation is just a second witness.

In Matthew Jesus said, to be AWARE of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel

The prophecy says the messiah will be CUT OFF in the middle of the week, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, his happened at his death and resurrection.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY (Christ become the once for all sacrifice) and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days,

This 1290 days is the same 3 1/2 years spoken of in Revelation, the second witness.

The BEAST with seven heads and ten horns is also spoken of in Daniel.

Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH BEAST shall be the forth (and last) kingdom on earth ....

The kingdom of Babylon (1st), the Medes and Persians (2nd), the kingdom of Grecia (3rd) and the KINGDOM OF GOD the 4th BEAST.

Luke 16:16 the law and prophets were until John, since that time the kingdom of God is preached ....

The forth BEAST: the kingdom of God has been on earth since John and will never cease to be, WHICH IS, and WAS and WILL BE: the last day, the sixth day in Genesis when man was CREATED by his resurrection with CHRIST.

God bless you.

I agree we are at the end of this age. I have heard some people think we still could have 200 to 2000 years left on earth before the Lord's return. But, I think the urgency is due to what we are seeing in the world today. These are not conspiracies, the highest level of governments are ready to rid the world of the physical dollar and impliment the digital dollar. The World Economic Forum is already discussing chips implanted in hands and brains. The world is unifying into a one world government. I won't get into the population control and the control over the food supplies, but these things are happening, just like the Word of God said it would. The beast with 10 heads are 10 kings that will run the world during the end times before the anti christ takes over, the world has already been broken up into 10 regions. To me, that is why the topic of the Great Tribulation is so important right now.

The Word of God is the oil to our lamps. God Bless

Richard, my understanding is that the majority of the Christian world believed in a post trib view prior to the 1800's. I would love to hear what you find on the topic. I know people have found a priest or a monk here or there that may have taught a pre trib view point prior to the 1800's, but even so, the majority of Christiandom held to the view of a post trib rapture.

Normally, a non-salvation issue, I wouldn't be as concerned if someone had a different view point. But, because a pre trib view is heavy on the point of not being here during the Great Tribulation, the revelation of the anti christ, and the mark of the beast, my fear is that they would fall into the deception Jesus warned about and could possibly believe the anti christ is the Lord Jesus Christ at his return. Because we know the anti christ will be claiming to be God, and he will be performing many signs and wonders. And, because the Word says the saints will be delivered up to death, by their own family members, with the family members thinking they are doing a good thing. To me, this is saying, the saints are refusing to believe the anti christ is God, and refusing the mark, and the world is thinking the saints are "the bad guys" if you will.

I look forward to the info you find on the subject.

God Bless

The reason King David was saying Beautiful for SITUATION the joy of this WHOLE EARTH...Is mount Zion the city of the great king ( the kingdom of God is gonna be SITUATED with in us) in Psalms 48:3...Thats y it is so beautiful simply b/c its gonna be with in us SINNERS to lead us into all truth...Which answers to our new heart and new spirit that is our new innerman Christ in us

.....That great King is Jesus that is gona be born in us...An external Kingdom wd be no threat to satan but an internal Kingdom wd destroy satans Kingdom which is our carnal minds...Satans seat...Thats y Jesus mentions kingdom against Kingdom....The wheat against the Tares which is satans seed...The great war...That Great tribulation....The most Beautiful place for humanity is in Christ and Christ in us sinners...And thats y he died that he might reconcile all men back to God and not only that but give us this ministry of reconcilation...Regeneration the multiplication of his seed etc...Remember Paul writes to some saying you are come into mount Zion the city of the living God to that Heavenly Jerusalem...Hebrews

12 :22....But they were still on this earth simply b/c Paul writting to them in Hebrews 12...Or whosever wrote Hebrews...

......Remember Jesus had said the Kingdom wd be with in you...And thats y David said beautiful for SITUATION the joy of this whole earth...The Kingdom the H.G. is gonna be with in us...Thus the Kingdom is gona be right here on this earth....k Gbu

Introduction to eschatology discussion regarding timing of events from Rapture to 2nd Coming (continued).

As stated previously; I wish to look to the Word to explain itself. I also wish to maintain the hope of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 in light of our appearing before the King of Kings. I take the minority opinion that perhaps not all will be Raptured who believe as it appears to be a reward issue and because of certain language related to those in white garments washed in the blood; which appears to indicate those who previously had spotted or wrinkled garments and were not part of those in Ephesians 1:4.

I don't think it prudent to delve too deeply here into that concept; what I will say is that verses like Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 at the very least should cause us to examine ourselves to see if we are saved and the Spirit is communing with us.

We should understand that not all who call themselves Christians truly are saved; and that parables like that of the 10 virgins whether it is an analogy of the church or of unbelieving Israel; whether it speaks of readiness for the Rapture or the Second Coming it certainly is a warning for us all to be ready. We can look to Revelation the same way; it is certainly applicable to those already under persecution and distress even with some unique characteristics to Tribulation events in history.

I am also as I probably made clear in earlier posts pretty dogmatic on taking a literal approach to scripture; and in Revelation taking things as indicated at least in chronological order or at least sequentially. I also emphasize the concept of Predestination in Revelation; as well as showing how great revival and restoration of the nation of Israel are some reasons for this final conflagration and time of terrible judgments. We should not be glib but sober minded when we consider the magnitude of these events. I contend that the church age is still in effect in it's final stages; the end of the age is near.

Dividing the Word: Eschatology in regard to the Rapture of the Church; other resurrections and the Second Coming of Christ

1 Corinthians 15:23 explains about Christ; the firstfruits and those that are there at His coming (loosely translated). The Day of the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:10) also has a time factor; I would argue that it encompasses the entire period from the Second Coming of Christ to the final consummation at the end of the Millennium; in other words the concept of the last day of rest being that time frame ( 2 Peter 3:8 just two verses previous). When we look at verses right before Armageddon ( Rev. 16:15) we see a reference to the thief in the night also. This complicates things further if we analyze the parable of the two virgins as it seems on the surface to indicate those not ready at the Rapture but it could also refer to those all the way up to the Second Coming (such as Jews in Israel who apparently don't realize who their true Messiah is until He returns or immediately before-see in Zechariah 12:12.

I am attempting to get some clarity on the subject of the Rapture (or harpazo the word used in the original language). There seems to be question on it even being an actual event (although that is in the minority). I anticipate a number of posts; ultimately I want to present as much scripture as possible so that we can all be Bereans. I will be the first to admit that some things are difficult to understand. Also; I wish to differentiate between what may more than one valid opinion as there are multiple events the occur. There are also certain distinct events that occur during the Tribulation; but with the brevity of the time frame there is certainly much overlap between the church age; and the coming Millenial period with distinctions between those living in heaven; those who survive the judgments to repopulate the earth and those martyred during the Tribulation who rise again.