Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 424

Amen, Rfamily73, Lord God hear our prayers and answer quickly.

Very beautifully written brother Chris, Thank you!

Perhaps after regeneration in Christ Jesus there will be sanctification if we are willing. Sanctification keeps our individual needs close to Jesus and as far from damnation like a gulf. Perhaps sanctification is sometimes confused with persecution? If we feel entitled to some thing and it is taken away, it might be sanctification. Maybe sanctification is Mercy multiplied?

Some evening (over here) thoughts.

You're quite right, Shabbat Keeper, that would be the gist of my comments: "that the unsaved will be tormented eternally". I gave those Scriptures earlier on for you to look at & they all point to a time of final judgement, where those who die in their sins without Christ are consigned into an eternity of suffering. So when you get time, have a look at those verses/passages (found in my two page comment), & let us know how you read them - are they simply idle threatening words from Jesus, maybe words that we should overlook/avoid, or is there another meaning to them? I know the verses that you, Jema & others refer to, where death is seen as both a finality & a judgement. And if these verses only were there, I could agree with you. But they are not the only verses that speak of death & then eternity - there are other passages as well. So I would be interested in how you read those verses, so that I (and maybe others here) may know the way you understand & exegete the Scriptures. Thank you.

Just as an unrelated example: I've often given John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was", asking for comment. I have always hoped that someone who rejects the Deity of Christ (i.e. Christ came from God's Person & wasn't just a supernaturally created Being) would exegete that verse for me. But so far none have come back on it. I wonder why? Simply because it (& others such as I gave you to consider about eternal suffering), are incompatible to the beliefs that are strongly held. So, I look forward to you thoughts whenever you are able. Thank you.

(Part 2):

Jema, you asked me if I've read Ezekiel Chapter 18, and also what does it mean to me? I would be happy to answer your questions, but first I need to know that you are open for discussion, even if it is "back and forth." I am completely open for discussion, and I would never consider our discussion a waste of my time.

I promise you that I will never be rude to you in any conversation. One thing I will say up front is that I may ask a lot of questions, but I'm confident that since you have studied the bible every day for 30 years, my questions shouldn't be very difficult at all for you to answer.

Also, I do commend you on 30 years of bible study without missing a single day. I wish I could say the same. I do have a hunger for God's word and find that I can't stay away from it for very long, but I have missed some days of study over the years. I am 63 years old and have also been studying for many years. I have never told anyone here how many years I have been studying, and that's something I probably won't share, and I have my own reason for not disclosing that information.

Hello Jema,

First, let me say thank you for your response. Honestly, I didn't think you were going to respond. I wasn't even sure that you would read what I posted after seeing my name, knowing that we differ in some of our beliefs. You mentioned that you don't read all the comments as you don't have the time to do so. That is understandable. I don't think any of us have the time to read every single comment here. I wish I had the time to do so because I like to read the things people have to say, whether I agree or disagree.

Jema, I can't say that I've read all of your posts, but I can say that I have read most of your posts and I will continue to do so because I enjoy reading them. You have always given me the impression of being a very kind and caring person. Also, your love for the Lord is quite obvious and I would never question that.

You also mentioned in one of your posts that you "always look out for people asking questions." Well, I asked you some questions (maybe too many?), but you chose not to answer any of them. Is it because I was questioning something you believed? On an open forum, we should expect to be questioned from time to time on what we say, and if someone disagrees on something and asks where in the bible can they find the things we are saying, we should at least point them to the scriptures and at least be open to discussion of those scriptures.

Jema, you said that you have explained your beliefs on here before. I asked, "Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist?" If you have already explained this in a previous post and I missed it, then I do apologize. I will go back and look for your explanation on that. Can you at least estimate how long ago it was that you explained how the soul ceases to exist so it might be easier for me to find?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean this to be this long. I need a little more space if you don't mind? I will send a part 2.

Thank you brother Carleton for those thoughts: that indeed that consciousness past the grave can well include a recalling of the life once lived which continually spurned the Love of God & His Spirit's urging for that upward look. As I read your comment here, my thoughts went to Galatians 6:17, "From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus". Though this verse doesn't directly refer to what you wrote, I see in that chapter the apostle's heart's desire for the salvation of his people: not only for God's Peace & Mercy to be upon them to come to that Truth, but that his efforts, witness & prayer were tireless, knowing that persecution would be his lot for his remaining days.

There were those who insisted on circumcision coupled with salvation to avoid certain persecution - Paul stood for Truth which is what mattered to him & he continued to proclaim 'salvation without any works'. And he did so even under great persecution. I ask, 'wouldn't it have been easier & less painful to him to present a watered-down Gospel, one where everything will work out in the end, that those who resist it will just die & no longer be remembered?' Yet, the marks of persecution were on his body; why would any man take the buffeting of men even to the point of death unless the rescue of souls from an eternity of suffering & torment was his only motivation & reason for persevering? Such concern & love is not just to get everyone into God's Kingdom, but to prevent them from entering that awful place reserved for the Devil & his angels; and the Scriptures speak volumes on this. Blessings to you.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" 1 Timothy 4:1 Somone said to me "The devil has power" to which I replied "The devil has no power". But allow me to rephrase that. The devil only has as much power as we allow him to have over us. Isn't that the truth, because ultimately we're fighting this fight individually. Yes as a body combined we all feel the pains of growth, and the burdens of others, and so we strive together. Yet, as individuals we are all faced with our own individual battle. In other words your test will probably be different from mine, but we're all facing the same enemy. The devil. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly" or Clearly, that in the latter times, or a later period, some shall depart from the faith. I'm going to try to explain this the best I can without going off subject, and bringing this all together to hopefully allow for understanding of what God is wanting to say. We have an enemy, and that enemy is Satan. That's something we can all agree upon. The intent of this enemy is to wreck havoc on your life, and he wants to do that so badly, that he's just waiting for an opportunity. "Giving heed to seducing spirits" That word heed means to pay attention to, or give your attention to. Now this is where I brought up the fact that Satan only has as much power as we allow him. We shouldn't be looking for a horned, beastly looking creature when it comes to Satan, but on the contrary. We should be ever so careful, and watchful for the subtleties of this enemy of our minds. Our eyes are the window to our soul. The song "Be Careful Little Eyes" is a children's song, yet it applies to everyone. It only takes seconds for the devil to move in, and only seconds for someone to fall pray, but the fall is for an eternity. We must be ever so watchful. Not allowing the devil any space. Staying in the word, and praying always. Be faithful!

Many blessings to you on your journey!

Hi Chris, in answer to you're question why don't I address the scriptures you quoted. First of all, I don't entirely follow what you are saying. Would you summarize the gist of your thoughts in one sentence? it would be easier for me. Second, I don't have hours of time to look everything up and thoughtfully respond.

Is this the gist of what your saying: the unsaved will be tormented eternally?

I love this site, it has taught me so much about how to live my life and how to treat others. I love living the righteous way even though I still have not committed myself completely. But I'm still learning.

I read a lot of stuff in here hoping that it would help me cuz I'm really struggling everything sounds good here open one door three more closes illustrated that's all I'm at the end of my ropes now I guess you can say my faith is weak I do pray I talk to Jesus alone the devil knows from all my weak spots he knows I'm a wimp worked on the love that Jesus wants us to have and worked hard added it just got crushed if I'm doing this incorrect I apologize hope somebody reads this and they don't end up like me thank you

The LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE

Something amazing about that BOOK. Do you know why it's called the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE?

It is filled with the names of those of us who have LIFE, the LIFE of the BLESSED SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

FULL of LIFE! Abundant LIFE! John 10:10 "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly." What does it mean to have LIFE more abundant?

To be FULL of the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD, and to have HIS name written on our foreheads though the circumcision not made with hands Colossians 2:11 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" May we endeavor to keep to HIS fullness for we are complete in HIM. Colossians 2:10

Being renewed day by day. 2 Corinthians 4:16

Our hope is in JESUS, and not in the things of this world. So, yes, we prepare, and we equip ourselves as soldiers in the army of God, prepared for battle. Yet, we lean NOT on our own strength, but on His everlasting arms, because He is our strength, our shield.

We study to show ourselves approved of GOD. For we are not those who seek honor from men, but the honor that comes from God alone, and he gives us favor. "So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man." Proverbs 3:4

He is the MASTER potter, and we are the clay. May our lives be honorable unto Him, and him alone. For He alone is worthy to be praised. I magnify His name. His glorious name JESUS. All powerful is our LORD, and Savior Jesus Christ.

The grace of our Lord and Savior be with you. Amen

Good morning brother Chris and all. Eternal suffering may be a forever consciousness of the Love of God, yet for ever separated from that Love. This time that we are in remains a gift to know Jesus Christ and him crucified as he is God's life. I agree that we cannot really consider the Gift by Jesus Christ without considering eternal damnation. This is part of the reason that the Kingdom of Peace is important, it keeps us present in the Lord as we are prone to wander towards another day. He must know us for us to know Him. My thoughts. Love to all.

Dear Jesse , have you read Ezekiel Ch 18 ? I'm guessing that you have :) . What does it mean to you ? In particular the last two verses . I reeeeally don't want to go back and forth on this because I feel that it would be a waste of both of our time and energy . I respect you and your beliefs . I just don't agree with all of them . I'm ok with that and hope that you are too .

Well, thank you Shabbat Keeper, but I was hoping you would have addressed some of those verses I shared that speak of an eternal condemnation & suffering. Many of us, over time, have put out those passages to those who believe as you, but unfortunately, none have given an adequate response as to their 'actual meaning'. If it were true that the Love of God is so great that it would be impossible for Him to confine any unsaved soul into a suffering eternity, my question then is, what are we to do with those Scriptures that show us to the contrary? If those Scriptures weren't there, then of course, I could certainly be persuaded to think of death & eternity as you (& others) do. But they are there & can't be avoided, no matter how much we try to diminish them or persuade our consciences that there must be some other unknown reason for them being there; seeing that Jesus Himself said what He did about eternity. I study the Bible as you do, so I hope that when you re-look at those passages, you will understand & grasp what the Scriptures actually reveal & not rely on personal perceptions & feelings, which can only cloud the Truth.

Hi Chris, I feel your love for God in all that you write. I want to say that, from my perspective, the difference with us Christian's dying ( compared to nonbelievers) is that we will be resurrected and our body will be rejoined to our soul. That fact makes dying, now, not as scary. Because we will sleep, and not be really dead.

it always seems that people don't understand that the punishment is "eternal", the Fire of the Living God "consumes", and will be forever, just not eternal "torment"... Iv'e come to the understanding that our Father has much more "mercy" than people.

the passovers were shadows of things to come. The Levitical priesthood is done, now it is the order of Melchizedek, applying "old covenant terms to a new "order" is erroneous. just saying

Jema or Shabbat Keeper,

(Part 3):

Matthew 25:30 says to cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where is this place and who goes there? How can someone who cease to exist weep or gnash their teeth?

Daniel 12:2 says that many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. This is obviously speaking of two classes of people, believers and non-believers. If one (or both) cease to exist when they die, how can this be?

In Ephesians Chapter 4, when Jesus descended into the lower regions of the earth, what was that for? Why would He go there? Who were these captives that He loosened?

Luke 12:5 says, "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." If a person just ceases to exist when they die, why would they have to fear being cast into Hell?

I realize that these are a lot of questions, but what you are presenting here, I think would cause many believers to have questions. Again, if you choose to answer these questions, I do appreciate your time.

Jema or Shabbat Keeper,

(Part 2):

In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?

In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?

In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?

John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?

Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?

I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.

Jema or Shabbat Keeper,

(Part 1):

Where in the bible does it say that the soul will cease to exist? If anyone ceases to exist when they die, can you please answer these questions. I will be the student here, so you have my attention. If you choose to answer these things, I do thank you ahead of time.

In Matthew 25:46, Is this not describing two classes of people, those who received Christ and belong to Him, and those who have rejected Him? If those who reject Him die and cease to exist, how can they go away into eternal punishment if they do not exist?

Revelation 14:11 says that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night. How can this be for someone that does not exist?

Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. How can anyone who dies and ceases to exist be judged since this judgment comes (after) death?

Revelation 21:8 identifies a class of individuals who will end up in the lake of fire, and it also mentions that this is the second death. If they went through the first death and ceased to exist, how can they experience a second death if they do not exist?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they will suffer the punishment of (eternal destruction), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. How is ceasing to exist considered suffering?

Jema, since Romans 6:23 has been quoted which says that the wages of sin is death, how do you get cease to exist out of this word death when the Greek word used (Thanatos) means separation, not cessation of life? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that at death, there is a separation from our physical body since this is what the word death means?

Revelation 14:10 talks about being tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Who is this for and how long will this torment last?

I have more questions to follow. Thank you for your time.

Hello, Amasuca,

Oh my, I was not criticizing what you wrote. I am sorry if it seemed that way. I wrote what was prompted in my spirit to write in response to you, just as you wrote what you were prompted to say. So, we both can learn from each other's posts. The Holy Spirit works in and through us.

And yes, having our names in the Lamb's Book of Life is what we should be thankful for every day we walk with Jesus. Knowing that God has written our name in this book reminds us of how great our salvation in and through Jesus is in contrast to what our unredeemed life before conversion would bring us in at the judgment seat of God. We can be so glad that God did all the work of saving us and if He had not done so, every human person that ever lived would be judged guilty and condemned to the lake of fire forever!

None of us are any more special than the next person; the difference is that we are in Jesus and unbelievers are not; we are justified before God having the righteousness of Jesus given to us and our sins removed whereas unbelievers have their sins remain on them to condemn them; we have eternal life in the best way because we believe Jesus and unbelievers have eternity in punishment unless they repent and believe the Gospel.

Knowing that we are in the Lamb's Book of Life is God's witness that He has declared us redeemed and saved from sin, death, the evil one, and condemnation for our sins. How wonderful is that!

S.Spencer,

You came to my mind while I was on my way home from errands an hour or so ago. And then the thought "Encourage" came into my mind.

I do pray daily for those on this site, but this prompting is not a common experience for me. So, I will encourage you and others on here with these words from Scripture.

The Aaronic Blessing in Numbers 6:24-26

"The Lord bless thee and keep thee; The Lord make His face shine upon thee, and be gracious to thee; The Lord lift up His countenance upon thee, and give thee peace."

AND

Paul's Blessing in Ephesians 6:23-24

"Peace be to the brethren, and the love of faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity."

AND to close,

Paul's Blessing in 2 Corinthians 13:14

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen"

Page 2.

Yes, there is an eternal joyous life for those who submit to God, so also there is eternal suffering for those who reject Him. How do you look at these verses? Are they to be avoided, re-interpreted, just given in error, or whatever one may choose to apply to them?

These are the matters we face here in addressing core biblical issues of eternity, the trinity, second coming, etc. And they are important; how we believe them & then share the Gospel with others can prove the genuineness of their faith when turning to Christ. I believe this is one major reason that we see an over-abundance of 'spurious faith' (i.e. a faith not based on the full Gospel message of the Bible, but with a leaning towards 'turn to Jesus & all will be well with your soul & live happily ever after in His Kingdom'). This is not the reason that Jesus came from His Glory ( John 17:5) to Earth to die a sinner's death - He came to give a Divinely prepared path & a living hope for the lost sinner to not face eternal condemnation: that's why it took the Son of God to come & lay down His Life, or else why not a spotless Heaven-provided Lamb? God laid down His Life through His Son which speaks to us of Love that is truly Agape & of the seriousness of our sins before Him & the certainty of His eternal Judgement to those who spurn that Love & offer of forgiveness. I'm sorry to have written at length on this subject, as it's one that is very close to my heart, when considering the great worth & cost of our salvation, in light of the Scriptures & of my own testimony.

Page 1.

Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.

If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?

Psalm 4:5

King James Version

5Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in theLord.

I believe that Christ offered himself for a sacrifice for burnt offerings, and peace offerings .

Revelation 19:6

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

1st Peter 3:1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

[2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

[3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

[4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Isaiah 3:17] Therefore the LORD will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts.

[18] In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

[19] The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

[20] The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

[21] The rings, and nose jewels,

[22] The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

[23] The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

[24] And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

GOD IS IN CONTROL

We can write everything off, and say "GOD IS IN CONTROL", but the main thing, is keeping the main thing, the main thing, and that's you want GOD in control of YOU. I want God in control of me.

How do we do that? What can I invest into the kingdom, that will assure GOD's hand will be indefinite, and complete control over my life? Because, I don't want to steer the ship of my life. I'm GLAD when GOD is behind the wheel, because He takes me, and leads me beside still waters. There's peace, everlasting peace, and I need HIS peace. I don't want conflict, or evil to visit me, but I know if I'm the one behind the helm, I'm destined to go off course, and end up shipwrecked.

So what's the answer? It's easy to quote the verse "trust in the LORD with ALL THINE HEART"

We say "yes", and "AMEN", because we know that that's the way to go. We understand that is the only way to go.

Yet, how come so many of us are failing to do that very thing. To "LEAN NOT" to our own foolish, and limited understanding.

We're limited in our thinking. Some may be very skilled in being able to think fast, but I guarantee you, it's NOT GOING TO BE FAST ENOUGH! You will be challenged, and there will come a time when you'll sit at a fork in the road, frozen and you'll wonder "What am I going to do?" It's bound to happen. Why? The reason is simple. Because "GOD IS IN CONTROL", it's HIS world, and only HIS ways can determine a successful outcome.

We can gamble with life, and even tempt GOD to the point where we become so lost, and it'll be like that child in the woods, that because you chose to do it your way, because I chose to do it my way, I can't find the way back.

Yes, our God is merciful, and there's no doubt that when we get into those types of situations we can cry out to God, and God will rescue us. But we ought not test the limits of our God's mercy, and grace.

So how do we do it? What's the key element. We want to be GEARED to GOD's will.

Gear me LORD! Gear me!

Hi Jema, True. The unbeliever won't know. That's the mercy of God.

Hi Chris, I was thinking, overall, what an icky thought it is, to stop existing.

I know people that don't believe in Christ. They are so secular that they are disinterested and bored with the topic of their eternal destination, Sad.

But, you brought up a whole new subject that bears discussion. And, that would be the rapture. I believed in the rapture for a good thirty plus years. It was a shock to my system (it even made me angry) to discover that there is no rapture of the Left Behind type.

I did to a great deal of reading, both for and against the rapture. It is too big a topic for this forum. Suffice it to say, if we look at the Biblical history, we will be here for tribulation. But, God will protect and provide as he did for the Israelites at the Exodus. And, as he provided a way out of Jerusalem in AD 70 for the Christian's.

"Say to them of a fearful heart, Behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense, He will come and save you." This verse brings tears of relief to me and makes me want to hug God.