Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 200

CAN ANY HUMAN LIVE A SINFREE LIFE?

To conclude:

From what I know of Scripture, God ordained it so that NO human can ever live a sin-free life. He decreed that He would send His Son as the Word made Flesh to live the life of sinless perfection that no human can ever live as the second Adam. This incarnation of the Son was God's plan to save humans. This salvation is by God alone (in Jesus Christ) so that no human can ever boast of meriting eternal life. 1 Cor.. 1:29-30; Eph 2:9.

God seeks His ultimate glory in all that He does. So, His eternal plan and decree was that He will be the only Savior for mankind and this salvation is totally unmerited and one that no man could ever merit. He decreed all humans under sin so that all would need His mercy and grace to be saved.

Also, the offense of sin against God was so grievous and great that even a sinless human could not merit salvation for all of mankind. Only God could pay the price for sins because His life is of infinite merit. In eternity past, The Godhead covenanted that the Father would send His Son to take on a human nature so as to be the perfect sacrifice for sins. He was fully human to be a perfect substitute for all mankind and fully God because the sacrifice of the Person of Jesus was of infinite worth, merit, and efficacy to cover all the offense against God and to be able to voluntarily take upon Himself the fullness of God's wrath for sin (which no mere human could endure).

God has His hidden reasons for His plan and decree concerning creation, the fall of man and angels, and the redemption of the elected humans from before the creation occurred. It is an eternal decree because God does not acquire any new plan in His will. He always had this plan and decree and covenant within the Godhead in eternity past. He does not change or acquire anything new in His nature. Everything He ever has done and will has always been ordained. He doesn't acquire knew knowledge of what anyone will do or choose.

Torchbearer, thank you for the education of wine. I love drinking fruit juice, but that hurts my stomach because of acids. Water today will work.

May we eat of the bread and wine of Jesus Christ for the rememberous of His resurrection.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the resurrection of Christ Jesus

Jesse, truly like you because you are a person that never gives up . Wine was strong in Noah's time, he got drunk and was found naked.

Remember, if you are the waiter serving wine to a Deacon, it's not a sin until he gets drunk and drive his car. We must use good judgment in everything in life in Faith that is of Jesus Christ. Our Righteousness is as filthy as rags, my too, but God's give us Righteousness through Jesus Christ and only through Jesus Christ, that means His word.

When I read the Bible, our of the 66 books are Jesus Christ himself, but I must decide what's for learning and what's for us today. Today we are living the church age in the Body of Christ Jesus and Jesus Christ picked one man for us to take notice and that's Apostle Paul for the Gentiles, Jews are always welcome.

Jesse, I am here to spread the good news and that is the gospel of grace only. I love everyone on this channel and I hope you all know that God loves you too.

May we all have peace and Love in Christ Jesus and Remember His Resurrection.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Peace and Love

CAN ANY HUMAN LIVE A SINLESS LIFE

pT. 2

Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father in glory and honor equal with the Father, as both are worshipped as such in Rev. 5:1-14;

9:1-8). Only God is rightfully worshipped.

And I believe that in Jesus, though He is fully human and fully God, having two natures that are united in the one Person of Jesus, these natures are not mixed together to form a new nature. Therefore, everything that Jesus did or said was as the divine Person of the Son of God. There are not two persons in Jesus: one divine and one human, nor is Jesus a human Person only, nor a human Person with deity.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:14; Jesus is "God with us" "Emmanuel" Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23; Titus 2:13.

I welcome others to discuss this if they feel led to by the Holy Spirit, both respectfully and seriously, not reactively.

Good Morning.

As an add on to the discussion with Fuji, Ronald, Chris, Giannis, S. Spencer and any who are following, I was contemplating the assertion of Unitarians of Jesus being only human and if anyone who is only human can ever live a completely sinless life and even if one was born without a sinful nature as Jesus was.

This is what I am thinning on this.

First of all, Adam and Eve were created without a sinful nature and they sinned. Satan and the other angels were created without a sinful nature and they sinned. This is how God ordained things to happen in His eternal decrees concerning creation, redemption, glorification. Romans 1:26-32, 11:37

The Scriptures affirm that every single human have sinned. Rom. 3:10-12, 23; Ps. 14:1-3. 53:1-3. Ecc. 7:20

The Scriptures say that only God is altogether good and sinless. Lk 18:19; Mk 10:18; Ps. 25:8; 1 chr. 16:34

With this evidence of Scripture, I will say that I believe that there never has been nor will there ever will be any person who is only human who will remain sinless in their earthly life. God has decreed this to be so.

In the case of Jesus, He was truly human and truly sinless, but He was not only human as Scriptures attest ( John 1:1-3, 14 and many other Scriptures-see discussion about Fuji's questions on this matter). Scriptures state unequivocally that Jesus is God made flesh. John 1:14.

I believe that Jesus, pre-existed His earthly life eternally as God the Son without beginning at any time (Because God is always eternal in existence) Rom. 1:20, Ps. 90:2, Is. 40:8, 28

I also believe that Jesus is one single Person, the eternal divine Son of God, who took on a human nature at His conception to live a perfect life, sacrifice His life for the sins of the world, and through His death, He took upon Himself God's wrath for sin in our place, and supplied salvation from sin, death, and hell from His life and death and triumphant resurrection from the dead to ascend back to heaven. see Pt. 2

Hello Bronco wildtrak 1

May I say my opinion on christians drinking alchohol?

Paul suggests that the elders (or bishops) should not be "given to wine". This doesn't mean not to drink wine but not to drink in excess and getting drunk. That is why he says "not to be GIVEN". The grk also implies not to drink in excess.

Was Jesus drinking wine? Matthew 11:18-19, "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.THE SON OF GOD CAME EATING AND DRINKING, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

In the above Matthew doesn't imply that Jesus was not drinking water, that would be very wierd, but he means drinking wine.

In the last supper with His disciples just before His crucifixtion, Jesus gave His apostles bread and wine for His Body and Blood. So He took wine from the wine they were drinking and gave them.

Paul in 1 Cor 11:20-21 writes, "When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken."

So that means that christians were having wine during their meals and Paul condemns their attitude of drinking in excess and getting drunk.

Titus 2:3 "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;"

It says not be given to MUCH wine, it doesn't say not to drink wine at all.

Brother Jesse is right when he mentions that the ancient greeks used to mix wine with water when drinking. But not in that ratio of 9:1. The latter was done only when they wanted to clean the water they were drinking (which was not as clean as it is today by the use of so many chemicals) so they just poured a little bit of wine in the water to purify it. But I do not know if that was a custom in Hebrews too. Maybe it was common to all people at that time.

GBU

Hi again Fuji.

I just checked and I didn't realize that I was linked to this thread!

I can certainly see how one would be offended.

I attempted to start a new one. I apologize but yet confused,

I'm not getting the email notifications and to the best of my knowledge I have not replied to anyone's post in a week or so.

I am back at work and can't engage further but will furtger elaborate on my post. Hopefully on a separate thread

Blessings.

Hello again Ray,

I didn't know about wine makers adding water, so thanks for sharing that. I used to drink wine on occasion but no longer do. I speak for myself when I say that the Lord put it upon my heart to stay away from alcohol. You said "we have to make our decision in Christ Jesus how to handle in Faith" which is so true. What a powerful statement! I know from studying the Greek language that the word faith literally means persuasion, and that persuasion (faith) comes from God. So, if I decide I want to have a glass of wine, I must ask myself, is God persuading me to have that glass of wine. If not, I might see it as being harmless, but the bible says that which is not of faith is sin, meaning whatever I'm doing that His Spirit is not persuading me to do, that is sin. It could be anything, even things we see as being harmless. But is God's Spirit persuading me to do whatever it is I'm about to do?

I mentioned earlier about the 9 parts water and 1 part wine because back then that is what they did. The alcohol content back then was not even close to the alcohol content in wine today. They did this because the water was not very good to drink, causing many to have stomach issues. My thoughts on this, and you may or may not agree, but if a Christian believer wants to use scripture to justify drinking alcohol, (Wine in this case), then they should be okay drinking it the way they drank it back then, 9 parts water/1 part wine. I wonder how many people would want to drink it that way? As a previous wine drinker, I would not want to drink it.

Finally, I assure you that I do not think that you're making this all up. I did get a chuckle out of you saying that! You gave me several verses. Are you wanting to discuss any of those with me? I continue to enjoy reading your posts. Thank you for the things you share and thank you also for the blessing. May the Lord bless every single person that comes here to read, to share, and to learn from each other.

God Bless!!!

Ronald, 3/3

10. 1 Cor 3:16-17, "16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

The grk for "temple" is "naos", that is a place where one lives in eg a house. And the Spirit lives in our bodies, His houses.

John 16:7-11, "7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:..."

11. 1 Cor 12:4-6, "4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."

As seen gifts are given by the Spirit, administrations by Jesus our Lord, and diversities of operations by God.

12. 1 Cor 12:11, "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as HE WILL."

13. Acts 15:28, "FOR IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

14 Rom 18:26-27, "26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

2 Cor 13:13, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."

Those are a few I found in the Bible but I think thery are enough to see that the Spirit is a person since it has characteristics of a person and not of an impersonal power.

Rev 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come."

Blessings.

Ronald, 2/3

4. John 14:16, "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that HE may abide with you for ever".

The word another (in grk allon) and the word Comforter (Parakleitos) are of masculine gender in grk.".

5. John 16:7, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter (masculine) will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you."

Jesus had to go so the Spirit took His place in guiding the church.

6. John 14:13-16, "13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14He shall glorify me: for HE shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you." Pay attention please, among others, to that " for he shall not speak of himself"

7. Acts 5:3-4, "3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou GAST NOT LIED UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD " Lie to a thing?

8. Acts 10:19-20, "19While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

20Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I HAVE SENT THEM" Also 11:12, "And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:"

9. Acts 13:2-4, "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, SEPATATE ME Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.4So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus"

See pt 3

Here we are back again dear Ronald, 1/3

I believe that you are aware of the verses I am going to list below and probably you interprete them in your own way but nevertheless.

Verses that show that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an impersonal thing, like a mere power:

Firstly it is true that God does everything through His Spirit, but not really everything, we will see it later on. That is why the Spirit is called, especially in the OT, as the hand or arm of God, because as a man uses his hand or arm to do things similarly God uses His Spirit.

1. Matthew 3:16-17, "16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".

Here we see the Father separate from the Son and the Spirit. The voice from heaven was not the Spirit's voice but Father's

2. Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:".

Why is the Holly Spirit included in the name of God if it is a mere thing? And why one name instead of three names?

3. Matthew 12:25-32, "And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; ...26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; ...? 28if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.....31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Why is the Spirit insulted if it is not a person?

See pt2

Fuji

oops, I meant to say:

I have yet to find any Scripture that states that Jesus existed before His conception in Mary as only an idea or plan of God.

S. Spencer,

I will certainly be praying for you in this matter. May God give you direction and discernment through the Holy Spirit as to whether you return to this fellowship or not.

I did this about 20 years ago. I had left a fellowship over deep concerns about the pastor and leadership and was planted in another church of a different denomination. But after a short time the Holy Spirit drew me to attend services at both fellowships for a time. I did not know why I was to do this at first, but in time I knew that the Spirit was teaching me to worship with and love more deeply those who I had parted with and was grieved by. After a year of this, the lead of the Holy Spirit lifted this "assignment" from me and I just attended the new fellowship. I have not had contact with people from the previous fellowship for over 20 but I continue to pray for those the Spirit reminds me to lift up.

I don't know your reasons form leaving the fellowship, but I am sure that the Holy Spirit will guide you, teach you, and help you to exemplify Jesus in the midst of this fellowship or any fellowship He call you to be a part of.

Hi Fuji.

I honestly have no Idea how this got addressed to your email!

I am also not getting email notifications from replies to me.

I clicked on the tab "Enter new comment" I never replied to you or anyone when I posted what I posted.

In fact I didn't recieve an email notification on this post or the post from Gigi.

Most do not realize that the word "wine" had multiple meanings in dictionaries around the time when the first English Bibles were translated including the time period when the translators translated the King James Bible.

"Wine: The juice, fermented or unfermented, of various fruits or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, syrup, etc."

Nathan Bailey's New Universal English Dictionary 1760 | A New English Dictionary by Benjamin Marin 1748 | A General English Dictionary by John Kersey 1708 | The Royal Dictionary in Two Parts by Abel Boyer 1702

Many also do not realize that God's wine contained a blessing, Isaiah 65:8, and another wine contained a poison, Deuteronomy 32:33.

For in-depth information on the topic of wine in the Bible you can do a search for a website called isdrinkingasin. All Bible verses on the website also utilize the KJV Bible.

I hope this is helpful.

Hi everyone and good evening everyone , this begining of your post is a bit confusing , if it's addressed to everyone why is it in my e mail ? You can't blame me for taking this personally .

I'm not sure what an 'ungenerated 'person is but it doesn't sound much like a compliment to me .

With reference to your reference : John chapter 20 verse 31 , you put it this way : But these are written , that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ , the Son of God ; then you put brackets containing the words ' meaning God ' .

Isn't what you did in direct contradiction of Revelation chapter 22 verses 18+19 ?

I'm very sorry to be so confrontational , if your message wasn't just intended for me personally then I apologise for reacting so strongly to it .

I think the crux of the matter to me is that the Bible does not come out and say , plain and simple , unequivocally that Jesus is God . If it does I cannot find it and those two verses from Revelation chapter 22 burn in my heart and , to me , they are extremely important and I can't just discard them .

May God bless us all to be polite and respectful when speaking to our family in our Lord Jesus Christ .

Jesse, I like your illustration of wine and water. Apostle Paul talks about meat offer to idols, we have to make our decision in Christ Jesus how to handle in Faith.

Let me tell you, wine makers will not admit to adding water, but some do, it's all about adding profit to the bottom line.

Apostle Paul's gospel was constantly being added by other false apostles and followers . They wanted to add circumcision and works.

Galatians 1:7

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and wouldpervertthe gospel of Christ.

It's all about Jesus Christ faith in his grace that we believe for Salvation.

Romans 1:17

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed fromfaithtofaith: as it is written, The just shall live byfaith.

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified byfaithwithout the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:16

Therefore it is offaith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of thefaithof Abraham; who is the father of us all,

I know that you think I'm making all this up, but the truth is, Apostle Paul is a special person to Jesus Christ and we should take notice. I know you might have knowledge , but God hide secrets that only Him will He reveal.

Deuteronomy 29:29

ThesecretthingsbelonguntotheLordour God: but thosethingswhich are revealedbelonguntous and to our children for ever, that we may do allthewords of this law.

May God Almighty bless these people in the word of truth, Chris , Richard H Priday , Giannis , Fuji ,

GiGi , Ronald Whittemore , Jesse , Bennymkje.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 this is the only way to Salvation for today and its believing only if we Follow the epistles of Apostle Paul.

Why did Peter have a hard time understanding Paul's wisdom given unto him by the ascended Jesus Christ in Heaven. Was Paul given a different Salvation plan, was Paul given a Rapture plan, was Paul told Jesus Christ is God, was Paul told God is in three parts , did Paul explains the Lord's table, did Paul explains the rules of speaking in tongues, did Paul explains the rule for being a Bishop and Deacon in the church, did Paul teach us the body of Christ , did Paul teach us we are a new creature in Christ, did God make Apostle Paul's epistle for us today for Salvation and doctrine ? ? ? The answer according to Apostle Peter is yes .

2 Peter 3:15-16

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Apostle Paul always calls his writing the word of truth given to him by Jesus Christ the ascended Lord in Heaven.

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing thewordoftruth.

To believe Apostle Paul's gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is saying I believe the word of truth in Christ for Salvation.

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the wordoftruth, thegospelofyoursalvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spiritofpromise,

May the God in the Third Heaven open your understanding to the word of truth inwhich is the gospel of grace that Jesus Christ gave to Apostle Paul. God will judge us for that gospel one day.

Romans 2:16

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christaccordingtomygospel.

Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 if we believe the gospel ?

I'm wondering why the spirits wanted to go into the swine? Maybe they didn't know that the swine would go over the cliff and into the sea.What happened to them after they went into the sea?

Amen Gigi!

God bless you and all that you do.

By the way keep me in prayer.

I'm considering going back to fellowship in a local Church that I recently left.

Blessings.

Hello Ray,

As I was reading through your posts about the wine, some thoughts came to my mind. I pictured myself as a waiter serving tables and I come to a table where a deacon is sitting. I know he's a deacon because someone in the restaurant knew him and told me so. As I'm taking his order, he orders a glass of wine with his meal. Now, I know that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake. And I know that Paul said that deacons are not to be given to much wine, so he's not saying they can't have any, so I know it's okay for me to bring him some wine. But should I be asking this deacon if he's having stomach issues? Or, if I come back to the table with a bottle of wine, a pitcher of water, and a glass, and right in front of him, I fill the glass up with 9 parts water and 1 part wine, what do you suppose this deacon might say, or will he even drink it? Your thoughts please.

God Bless!!!

Hello Fuji. I would like to further address your statement, "for every verse that a person who believes in the trinity quotes, I can find five verses to contradict it. And yes, it also seems to me that some people sometimes start with an idea and then try to find proof to back it up."

I would be very interested to learn what those verses are that contradict it (the Trinitarian belief). Would these be verses that state that Jesus was simply a man without a beginning in Heaven with the Father? I don't believe that I have read any, but willing to be corrected. But if your verses to prove this belief in error are simply the verses that show Jesus is God's Son and nothing more, then I would hasten to say, that all Trinitarians would believe in the Sonship of Jesus, for so the Scripture states very clearly.

Then it appears to me, that anyone who wants to disprove the Deity of Christ would need to refer to the many Scriptures we've already and frequently quoted that show Christ's Deity without doubt. Until we can examine these other Scriptures, then only can we learn who actually "starts with an idea (or belief) and then try to find proof to back it up". Not one non-Trinitarian has volunteered to expound those verses, except bro Ronald who gave us his understanding of John 1:1, which I believe can be successfully argued if the whole passage is read, i.e. John 1:1-14. So would I be in order to request you to supply us those verses that contradict the Trinitarian belief? I too wish to learn, especially to see what I have missed in my studies. Thank you.

Hello S. Spencer,

I don't thin that an unregenerated person would come to the understanding of what Scriptures attest to as the Triunity of the Godhead because such and understanding is spiritually discerned by one who is made alive in Christ. Those who are not yet regenerated cannot come to the knowledge of the truth in Christ or Scripture unto salvation until they have been made alive and have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light.

1 cor. 2:14

Col. 1:13

Unregenerated people have eyes that are blinded to the truth, ears that are shut to hear the truth, and minds that are degenerated and perverse in their thinking about God and His truth. Their hearts are hardened towards God.

Ma k:18

Rom. 1:26-32 describes this state of unbelief in those dead in sin.

I know that you do know all of these things, but I just wished to try to give a sound biblical understanding for your question.

As to the discussion on the oneness and threeness of God, most who have responded to Fuji's questions have discussed these things back and forth many times here. Yet, Fuji is asking questions that truly need true Scriptural answers. He may have not heard or read on these questions before and we should do our best to help him seek what Scriptures do say.

And for the record, the overwhelming majority of Christians believe God is trinitarian, that Jesus existed before He was incarnated, and that He is both God and Man. I read recently that about 90% of serious believers avow to the trinitarian belief.

This forum is certainly open to anyone to express their beliefs.

I just wanted to point out this statistic because in a discussion like this one on this forum you can have people responding that are 50/50 as to embracing trinitarianism/unitariansim which can give the impression to some that both view are widely held when that is not the truth among believers now, nor of Christians historically over 2000 years. This statistic does not prove the truth though

Dear Fuji,

In understanding that there is only one God who exists as three distinct person, Father, Son and Spirit is clearly taught in Scriptures. When you say that you find verses that support the Trinitarian belief and then say there are verses that contradict this belief you are really saying that the Scriptures contradict each other. But we know that this is not true of Scriptures, because God does not contradict Himself in His revelation.

Perhaps a better way to view this is as a paradox or parallel truths. Both are true, one truth (there is only One God) follows one line of revealed truth in Scripture and another truth (the Father, Son, and Spirit, are all God, distinct persons, but unified in one Being) follows another line of revealed truth in Scripture. As humans, we most likely will not be able to fully comprehend that both of these are true of God but this does not permit us to believe one and not the other. We are to believe both ways God has revealed Himself regardless of how well we understand. This is one aspect of believing God (as Abraham did) by faith.

Again, I wish you well and keep searching Scripture, focusing on what it reveals about God, not cancelling one truth out for another. Embrace all that God is as revealed in Scripture. Believers have done this for 2000 years.

Fuji,

Pt. 3

The Scriptures clearly say that God will not share His glory with another (Is. 42:8) but in John 17:5 the Father did and does share His divine glory with Jesus, who is also God.

Many places in Scripture state that God created all that there is, AND that Jesus created all that there is ( John 1:1-3; John 1:10; Col. 1:16; 1 Cor. 8:6) Only a Being can create, not an idea or a plan.

And lastly, Jesus is worshipped as God in Rev. along with the Father. ( Rev. 5:1-14; 19:1-8).

Jesus is our Maker, Creator, Lord, and God. He always has been God, not an idea or plan in the mind of God. He is forever the Son of God because John 1:18 in the Greek call Him the only begotten God who has seen God (the Father) and whom declares who God is as the eternal Word.

What one believes about the eternal existence and deity of Jesus will frame how one views the gospel, His sacrifice, our atonement, and that salvation truly comes only from God in Christ alone. Not from one who is only human who lived a sinless life, as Unitarians profess. Jesus, from everlasting to everlasting is God with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

God is the only Savior (Is. 43:11; Hos. 13:4; Jude 1:25).

Fuji,

May God bless you with true understanding of how Scriptures answer your two questions.

Heb. 1:6 God instructed the angels to worship the Son.

The apostles worshipped Jesus ( Mt. 28:9; Mt. 14:33;. Jn. 20:28)

And the man born blind worshipped Jesus ( Jn. 9:38

Dear Fuji,

This is my part 2

Since Scripture is clear that Jesus, the Messiah, did exist prior to His conception, then the next question would be:

What was His existence from all eternity past (as Micah 5:2) states comprised of? Luke 1:26, 38 identify Jesus as the Messiah spoken of in this Micah passage.

Unitarians believe like Ronald Whittmore: that Jesus existed as an idea or plan in the mind of God. I have yet to find this teaching anywhere in Scripture that He existed as God with the Father ( John 1:1-3; John 12:41(Is. 6:5).

John 6:46 that Jesus came from the Father and has seen the Father. An idea or plan does not see. And an idea or plan is not God as John so plainly teaches.

Jesus said that before Abraham was, I Am. in John 8:56-58, using the term "I Am" as YHWH did to Moses in Exodus 3, which means, "I exist because I exist", or "I ever exist" or "I am self-existent".

Scripture clearly teaches ( Jn. 1:1-3, Phil 1:5-8) state that Jesus (The Word who became flesh- John 1:14) existed as God prior to becoming human. This indicates that He was clearly not an idea or a plan but a real divine person in relationship with the Father, another divine person. But we also know that there is only one being that is God. Being a distinct person of the Godhead is a different category that the Being of God, not a different God, but a distinction within the one Divine Being.

In Hebrews 1 Jesus is spoken of as the begotten Son of the Father that the Father brought into the world (in the flesh) but He existed as the Son of the Father eternally before He was conceived. In John 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7 is quoted and attributed to the Father speaking to the Son, "Thy throne, O GOD; is forever and ever." The Father is calling the Son God!

John 17:5 has Jesus asking the Father to restore to Himself (Jesus) the glory that He shared with the Father prior to His (Jesus) humbling Himself to become human as well as retaining His Deity.

See Pt. 3

Hello Fuji

I have been considering your questions and praying how I can respond to help you. First of all, I will say that you can receive thoughtful responses on this forum. You can also find good answers to these two questions by searching the internet with these questions. The responses there may be as good if not better than what I or others have done so here on this forum. Not all internet sources are equally sound from a biblical perspective just as not all responses to your questions here are such. I would recommend the Got Question site as a start. They give a fairly concise explanation to your questions.

As I was thinking on your questions, I came to these responses:

1) Does Scripture speak of Jesus existing prior to His conception in Mary?

The first Scripture I will cite is John chapter 1. It does tell us that Jesus is the Word of God, who also is God, who was with God from the beginning. Jesus is said by John to have created all that has been created. And that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

John 8:56: Jesus says that He existed before Abraham existed. He used the term "I AM" in this verse which is a specific reference to the name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3, which means "I self-exist" or "I exist because I exist".

In many verses Jesus states that He came from heaven to earth, from the Father, being sent from the Father, that He is from above. The Gospel of John is replete with verses that state this.

John 8:23; John 1:18; John 3:1,17; John 6:38; John 17:21; John 3:34; John 18:36; John 1:15; John 3:12-13, 31-36; John 16: 27-28.

John 12:41refers back to Isaiah 6:5 where Isaiah saw the LORD seated on the throne and all the angels said "Holy, Holy, Holy".

John here says that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus on the throne because he was speaking of Jesus is verses 37-40.

The New Testament states explicitly in many places that Jesus is the Christ (Jewish Messiah). In Micah 5:2 states that the Messiah existed for all eternity past.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OF OLD, FROM EVERLASTING. Micah 5:2.

Without italics.

"whose goings forth from of old, from everlasting"

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:

(AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED)

Wonderful, Counsellor,

THE MIGHTY GOD,

THE EVERLASTING FATHER,

The Prince of Peace.

PROPHECY.

Hosea 5:15 I WILL GO AND RETURN TO MY PLACE, TILL THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR OFFENCE, AND SEEK MY FACE: IN THEIR AFFLICTION THEY WILL SEEK ME EARLY.

Matthew 23:39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

By the time you go through the old testament and gather together all these gems and what's said in the New Testament and you are confused that's ok in my opinion.

But if it causes you to divide and dedicate your study on to seek and destroy there is something wrong!

God's "being" is Incomprehensible to replicate in our minds but his triune existence is well laid out for us in scripture.

There's no denying it.

Blessings

Hi everyone.

Good Evening everyone.

I just thought of a serious question that I haven't seen posted on the site! Unless I missed it. I admit I don't read all the postings.

I haven't read or followed much of this ongoing discussion of the Trinity, mainly because my wife and I just got back from a 4 day cruise today.

Also this has been debated by the same participants several times over the years.

Which is fine.

I believe most agree that belief in the Trinity doctrine is not a "REQUIREMENT" for salvation.

However I've mentioned before and will say it again I believe one would come to that truth as he mature in the word. ORGANICALLY!

MY QUESTION.

Can a ungenerated person come to this truth?

That is a serious question that I never considered!!

You may not have to hold to it to be saved but can it be revealed apart from the Spirit of truth?

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying! He was claiming to be God. However they couldn't recieve it!

It made them angry as it do some today even though it's clear in scripture.

John 20:30-31 reads "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; (Meaning GOD) and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This is written right after Thomas confession in verse 28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord AND "MY GOD".

This as well as much of John's Gospel is on the deity of Christ

John 1:1-3 "In beginning" I believe this is how it is written in the Greek. IN BEGINNING! There was no beginning!!

In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There's no other scripture needed!

More on the topic.

Thanks Ronald. I'll be back tomorrow, it's too late here. GBU