All Discussion PAGE 948

Right, many are called and few are chosen. The road is narrow, etc. I do believe we all need to be in a right relationship with God, through His Son Jesus. We need to be born again. I'm excited to see how you sort this all out. God Bless

Hello Jema,

I have heard of them, but do not know much about them. I do know that they contained the book of Isaiah. I will research more on them when I can.

Thanks Richard, I like that you're tackling this topic. Since the topic is futuristic/prophecy, we won't get it 100%, I don't believe anyone has it all figured out. So, I think it's great that we brothers and sisters in Christ can discuss and get as close as we can. God Bless

Part One: The Rapture: Timing and reason for it.

I do my best not to be overly redundant in these posts; I do have some earlier Revelation commentary as to cross references that make a Pre-Trib (or my own variation on it) conclusion. I try to quote references when available; on this post I am assuming most people already have a fundamental understanding of the Bible verses either supporting or against such a viewpoint. I will seek to look to the integrity of the whole Word of God; New Testament and Old. There are a few verses in Isaiah and Psalms which seem to talk of God hiding His people until the indignation be past such as Isaiah 26:20. I used Psalm 40 also to show how many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay as a sort of tie in to verses such as Romans 11:25 on the time of the Gentiles coming "to the full" or other verses in that book on Israel being provoked to jealousy to indicate how a Rapture as well as Resurrection of the saints would finally wake some people up.

The first fundamental concept is interpreting the bride of Christ from the wedding party; and or wedding feast of the Lamb. This makes the discussion of the 10 virgins a warning for all of us; whether it is to make the Rapture; or be ready for Christ's return. My introduction quotes a verse in Revelation 16 which still seems to show that late in the Tribulation some need to be alert to Christ's coming. I think at this point I also want to emphasize something else I stated earlier; that oftentimes there is a tendancy just to separate believers from nonbelievers. This has several issues; first of all it makes us ignore verses such as Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward to another; and many other verses indicating various levels of spiritual fruit production and consequent rewards or lack thereof. ( Matt. 13:8; Matthew 25:14-30; etc). As Paul stated we are to seek the prize of His high calling (Phillipians 3:14). That means many miss out.

Hello Gigi , I'm guessing you already know about the dead sea scrolls ? If not , look them up , very interesting .

TammyC:

The last day has been going on for 2000 years, Paul understood he was living in the last day.

The word of God is written to each person; as you study and read, it's YOU, his church, the SPIRIT of Christ is speaking to, not a collective BODY, your the body of Christ.

Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ TO YOU; his church, his bride.

That (Christ) WHICH IS, and WAS, and WILL BE.

The words of Revelation mean the same TO YOU as it did to the person reading them 1900 years ago.

The words in Revelation are; ALSO, prophecies found in Mosses and the Prophets, Revelation is just a second witness.

In Matthew Jesus said, to be AWARE of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel

The prophecy says the messiah will be CUT OFF in the middle of the week, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, his happened at his death and resurrection.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY (Christ become the once for all sacrifice) and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days,

This 1290 days is the same 3 1/2 years spoken of in Revelation, the second witness.

The BEAST with seven heads and ten horns is also spoken of in Daniel.

Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH BEAST shall be the forth (and last) kingdom on earth ....

The kingdom of Babylon (1st), the Medes and Persians (2nd), the kingdom of Grecia (3rd) and the KINGDOM OF GOD the 4th BEAST.

Luke 16:16 the law and prophets were until John, since that time the kingdom of God is preached ....

The forth BEAST: the kingdom of God has been on earth since John and will never cease to be, WHICH IS, and WAS and WILL BE: the last day, the sixth day in Genesis when man was CREATED by his resurrection with CHRIST.

God bless you.

God is still in control he raises up Kings and he brings down Kings. Prayer is definitely the key in these last days. God has the final say.

I was born again at 8 years old. My mother taught me the Word of God. My understanding was opened up by the Lord. I prayed through to Salvation and was baptized in the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues. (Act2:4) I did not have disciples ship after this encounter. My parents were in and out of church. I made a lot of mistakes and I was in and out of church. In 2017 I began to studying the four Gospels. I fell in love with the Bible and most of all Jesus. I read the whole Bible and used a commentary for harder things to understand. He consumed my life and I have not been the same. A Orphan spirit was broken off my life and I realized I a child of God. I have no longer been in and out of church. I have been called into the ministry. My parents are back serving the Lord and he is moving in their lives. I give Jesus Christ Yeshua all the glory!!

The reason King David was saying Beautiful for SITUATION the joy of this WHOLE EARTH...Is mount Zion the city of the great king ( the kingdom of God is gonna be SITUATED with in us) in Psalms 48:3...Thats y it is so beautiful simply b/c its gonna be with in us SINNERS to lead us into all truth...Which answers to our new heart and new spirit that is our new innerman Christ in us

.....That great King is Jesus that is gona be born in us...An external Kingdom wd be no threat to satan but an internal Kingdom wd destroy satans Kingdom which is our carnal minds...Satans seat...Thats y Jesus mentions kingdom against Kingdom....The wheat against the Tares which is satans seed...The great war...That Great tribulation....The most Beautiful place for humanity is in Christ and Christ in us sinners...And thats y he died that he might reconcile all men back to God and not only that but give us this ministry of reconcilation...Regeneration the multiplication of his seed etc...Remember Paul writes to some saying you are come into mount Zion the city of the living God to that Heavenly Jerusalem...Hebrews

12 :22....But they were still on this earth simply b/c Paul writting to them in Hebrews 12...Or whosever wrote Hebrews...

......Remember Jesus had said the Kingdom wd be with in you...And thats y David said beautiful for SITUATION the joy of this whole earth...The Kingdom the H.G. is gonna be with in us...Thus the Kingdom is gona be right here on this earth....k Gbu

Plz do not be upset with me....But the man you are grooming with concordences and commentries and the Greek language and siminaries is not gonna make it...Our old adamic nature is the man that returns to his vomit and the sow that returns to her mud...Jesus tells us of man who is forgiven but walks thru dry places seeking rest but finds none then takes with him 7 other demons more wicked then himself and they enter in and the last state of that mans worse then the 1 st... MATT 12:45...Stay away from all carnal man made devices,bible schools, concordences. Siminaries...Rich preachers commentaries...Stick to the word of God the Anointing that is supposed to live with in you, is Christ living with in you....Examine your selves is Christ is living with you. 2 COR.13:5...If Christ is living in you need no man teach you...1 st John 2:27...The anointing you have living within you will teach you all things....you need no man teach you....A lil Child is gonna lead us in all truth...Which is the Anointing the H.G....Whosoever receiveth one such Child in my NAME RECEIVETH ME...Remember Jesus said that the H.G. will come in his NAME

.....You cannot groom satan ( our old adamic nature ) the flesh into the Kingdom of God...Its gotta be a completly new Creature via the seed of the sower the living word the new covenant in his blood....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision...but only a new Creature...Which is the H.G...Nothin availeth any thing in Christ Jesus but a new Creature the manchild...mankinds fruit unto God...Its gotta be That Christ in you doing the Teaching...Anything that man ( the flesh ) touches brakes out into a viper....Our flesh our carnal minds is the very enemy of God ROMANS 8...k

G.M. H.G. Kingdom seekers...let me ramble a bit plz... 2 Cor. 13:5 Examine your selves whether ye be in the Faith.. is Christ living with in you...Did you birth a baby Christ in your heart...Are you with Child of the H.G. That Child of PROMISE...Unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in..The manchild is gona rule all nations...Thats y the new birth is so important we have to birth a baby Christ...Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME..The Kingdom cannot come unless he sows his good seed in our hearts...Thats y he has to know us..And also thats y he died when a seed dies it multiplies...smite the Shepard Zech. 13:7 kjv ( his death ) and the sheep will be scattered then i will turn my hand to the lil ones...a baby Christ that is gonna be born in us... Rev. 12:5 Thats y the woman ( humanity ) has to birth the manchild...Which is her new heart and new spirit..The Kingdom...And she keeps the commandments simply b/c he that is born of God cannot sin..Thats her Child the H.G. that cannot sin b/c he is born of God in us via the seed of our lord Jesus.

.....Thats y Elijah has to come and turn the hearts of the fathers to the Children...His Children, Whosoever receiveth one such Child n MY NAME.

.....But if Christ lives in us we donot need other teachers....The Anointing you have received of him liveth with in you and he will teach you all things...1 st John 2:27...The Anointing is the H.G. the Child of PROMISE...The kingdom... Isaiah 11 Thats y Isaiah 11 is saying a lil Child is gona lead them which is the H.G. that Spirit of truth, that y Jesus said he cd not speak of himself simply b/c he has to be born in us...He is just an infant spirit...Infants cannot speak for season...Thats y Isaiah mentions the woman with Child and she that travails with Child a great company....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven.. Jesus said that which is born of the spirit is spirit....Thats the Children of Promise. k

Yes STU , all Christians believe this . This does not mean however that Mary was sinless . Do you know how easy it is to sin ? Do you not realise that we all do it , every day ? Only Christ is sinless . The rest of us mere mortals are filthy creatures , including Mary . Some of us are less sinful than others but we all sin everyday . Read the book of James . He always makes me thoroughly ashamed of myself every time I read it .

Yes , even when the Word is true people still misunderstand it . I was talking to a neighbour just yesterday and for the first time he mentioned the Bible . I was so excited and my ears pricked up , he said : I was browsing my Bible last night and it's so full of contradictions ! I asked what they were and he said : what happened to Isaac ? One minute he's there the next God whisks him away ? I said I don't think you mean Isaac , maybe Enoch or Elijah , no no he said it was definately Isaac . I tried once more , very gently as I didn't want to discourage or push him away but he was adamant and then changed the subject . What could I do ? Even when it's all there in black and white ! I did say that his problem was that he was browsing through it , told him he needs to read it all etc , guess what he said ? He said ( he's 76 years old) oh I don't need to bother with all that really , I'm a catholic . I'm not joking :( . I shan't give up on him though , he's a sweet man , very kind and gentle , at least he showed some interest so maybe I can build on that at some point .

Godhead Father = the soul. Jesus= the Body Holy Spirit = he Spirit. 3 in 0ne.

I'm confused , sorry , if it doesn't have the Greek or Hebrew meanings or words etc , what is it exactly ?

I do agree with you because I feel it , the Spirit of God makes me do the right thing . I'm tempted every day in so many ways but I mostly resist but only because I know in my heart what God expects of me and that He is with me guiding and watching me and getting me to do things that are right in His sight . I do also believe that Christ is physically coming back to set up God's Kingdom on earth . The Comforter is for us now , as we have to live in these kingdoms of men , to help us get through our trials and tribulations , Christ is physically coming back to earth , I am 1000 million per cent certain of that . In the mean time , I have the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of Truth , the Comforter with me , to cheer me up to keep me sane to show me how to be a better Christian . I feel this deep within me . I have not led an easy life ( who has?) , God has got me through it all with a smile on my face and joy in my heart , this smile and joy doesn't come from this world or the things of it , this world to me is dark and cold and vicious and dead , me ? I'm so happy every day , I see the blue sky and the clouds and feel the warm sun and hear the birds . I'm poor , disabled , living in pain , looking after relatives that are atheist and dying , I live in a drug riddled town and I just see God's goodness everywhere . His joy fills me as I'm waiting for His Son to return , as i know he will . Be thankful and joyful and patient , Christ is coming ! :) :) :) .

Thank you for your comment Tammy. It is nice when there don't have to be fisticuffs on this topic. I hope to present a detailed and balanced perspective. Your point is quite important as to the 10 kings being prepared before Antichrist takes them over; nonetheless they don't reign (or have a Kingdom) until he subdues 3 of them and they co-rule with him in his new world order style dictatorship.

The focus is; indeed on edification of the saints. I will state also; I have been given discernment to have insight and visions as to certain things in the time of the end. Saying God has shown me something; I realize makes me join the crowd of all the true and false "revelations" that have been espoused by others that say they have had a dream and such. Whatever camp you are on as to whether the church goes through part of the Tribulation; most or none understanding just how horrible it will be ( Matt. 24:21) is sobering and leaves us much as Daniel did after having his visions of God.

It is important as I sort of pointed out already to understand how the great harvest of souls in the innumerable multitude ( Rev. 7:9) still eclipses such horrors through victory. The real terror is for the lost who will be attacked directly and tormented by demons as the 5th trumpet clearly states. As you pointed out also deception will be at a peak; and as I plan to reiterate in my upcoming posts; ALL those whose names are not written in the Book of Life WILL worship the Beast. ( Rev. 13:8). Also even the elect would be decieved IF IT WERE POSSIBLE ( Matt. 24:24). My point in shouting is to emphasize the fact that if we are elect we cannot ultimately fall away or be "unsaved". That is another hot topic; which we are discussing in my church small group at present. I am pointing out that again; no matter how you view it the result is the same; some are saved others lost. There are some who live through and others who die victorious in the Trib (most die of course).

I agree we are at the end of this age. I have heard some people think we still could have 200 to 2000 years left on earth before the Lord's return. But, I think the urgency is due to what we are seeing in the world today. These are not conspiracies, the highest level of governments are ready to rid the world of the physical dollar and impliment the digital dollar. The World Economic Forum is already discussing chips implanted in hands and brains. The world is unifying into a one world government. I won't get into the population control and the control over the food supplies, but these things are happening, just like the Word of God said it would. The beast with 10 heads are 10 kings that will run the world during the end times before the anti christ takes over, the world has already been broken up into 10 regions. To me, that is why the topic of the Great Tribulation is so important right now.

The Word of God is the oil to our lamps. God Bless

Richard, my understanding is that the majority of the Christian world believed in a post trib view prior to the 1800's. I would love to hear what you find on the topic. I know people have found a priest or a monk here or there that may have taught a pre trib view point prior to the 1800's, but even so, the majority of Christiandom held to the view of a post trib rapture.

Normally, a non-salvation issue, I wouldn't be as concerned if someone had a different view point. But, because a pre trib view is heavy on the point of not being here during the Great Tribulation, the revelation of the anti christ, and the mark of the beast, my fear is that they would fall into the deception Jesus warned about and could possibly believe the anti christ is the Lord Jesus Christ at his return. Because we know the anti christ will be claiming to be God, and he will be performing many signs and wonders. And, because the Word says the saints will be delivered up to death, by their own family members, with the family members thinking they are doing a good thing. To me, this is saying, the saints are refusing to believe the anti christ is God, and refusing the mark, and the world is thinking the saints are "the bad guys" if you will.

I look forward to the info you find on the subject.

God Bless

Introduction to eschatology discussion regarding timing of events from Rapture to 2nd Coming (continued).

As stated previously; I wish to look to the Word to explain itself. I also wish to maintain the hope of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 in light of our appearing before the King of Kings. I take the minority opinion that perhaps not all will be Raptured who believe as it appears to be a reward issue and because of certain language related to those in white garments washed in the blood; which appears to indicate those who previously had spotted or wrinkled garments and were not part of those in Ephesians 1:4.

I don't think it prudent to delve too deeply here into that concept; what I will say is that verses like Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 at the very least should cause us to examine ourselves to see if we are saved and the Spirit is communing with us.

We should understand that not all who call themselves Christians truly are saved; and that parables like that of the 10 virgins whether it is an analogy of the church or of unbelieving Israel; whether it speaks of readiness for the Rapture or the Second Coming it certainly is a warning for us all to be ready. We can look to Revelation the same way; it is certainly applicable to those already under persecution and distress even with some unique characteristics to Tribulation events in history.

I am also as I probably made clear in earlier posts pretty dogmatic on taking a literal approach to scripture; and in Revelation taking things as indicated at least in chronological order or at least sequentially. I also emphasize the concept of Predestination in Revelation; as well as showing how great revival and restoration of the nation of Israel are some reasons for this final conflagration and time of terrible judgments. We should not be glib but sober minded when we consider the magnitude of these events. I contend that the church age is still in effect in it's final stages; the end of the age is near.

Dividing the Word: Eschatology in regard to the Rapture of the Church; other resurrections and the Second Coming of Christ

1 Corinthians 15:23 explains about Christ; the firstfruits and those that are there at His coming (loosely translated). The Day of the Lord ( 2 Peter 3:10) also has a time factor; I would argue that it encompasses the entire period from the Second Coming of Christ to the final consummation at the end of the Millennium; in other words the concept of the last day of rest being that time frame ( 2 Peter 3:8 just two verses previous). When we look at verses right before Armageddon ( Rev. 16:15) we see a reference to the thief in the night also. This complicates things further if we analyze the parable of the two virgins as it seems on the surface to indicate those not ready at the Rapture but it could also refer to those all the way up to the Second Coming (such as Jews in Israel who apparently don't realize who their true Messiah is until He returns or immediately before-see in Zechariah 12:12.

I am attempting to get some clarity on the subject of the Rapture (or harpazo the word used in the original language). There seems to be question on it even being an actual event (although that is in the minority). I anticipate a number of posts; ultimately I want to present as much scripture as possible so that we can all be Bereans. I will be the first to admit that some things are difficult to understand. Also; I wish to differentiate between what may more than one valid opinion as there are multiple events the occur. There are also certain distinct events that occur during the Tribulation; but with the brevity of the time frame there is certainly much overlap between the church age; and the coming Millenial period with distinctions between those living in heaven; those who survive the judgments to repopulate the earth and those martyred during the Tribulation who rise again.

Thank you Chris for your comment. I think you have a lot of great points. I'm no scholar concerning eschatology, so some of this is my belief in what I read. I think the book of Revelation is not written in the normal chronological way the other books of the Bible are written. I see segments that are retold in a different way with additional details of an event. I do believe that Revelation 14 shows that the saints will be here for the event of the mark of the beast, and after that event, Jesus returns for the harvest. So, to me, everything up to and including the mark of the beast, the killing of the saints is part of the great tribulation. Then, in chapter 15, after Jesus has gathered His saints (in chapter 14) it says the 7 last plagues/God's wrath will take place. So to me, it's clear that the great tribulation and God's wrath are two different events. If you read all of Revelation 14 and 15 I think you'll see the same thing. I hope that explained where I am coming from? God bless.

Gigi, I'm not sure who is reviling you, I know that I did not. I simply asked you to be mindful of your words because of our new brothers and sisters in Christ or even non believers on this site that could see your statement that God's Word has errors through out. This could cause a new believer to stumble and fall, or a non believer to remain a non believer. As Christians we have a responsibility, especially mature Christians to not put a stumbling block in front of those that are weak in faith. I don't feel like you addressed my concern, you continued to argue your opinion that the KJV is littered with errors, then proceeded to make comments about people who only read the KJV, calling this "cult-like". I felt I was kind in my plea to you, but it seems I'm met with a refusal to curb your sharp words. I've seen some of the arguments you've been party to on this site, I don't plan to be a part of one. So, I'll accept your refusal. God Bless

please remember me and my family today in your prayers

Hi again Jimbob, I just noticed your comment addressing Jesse & myself, & in particular to your references, Mark 13:13 & Matthew 24:13.

Both Jesse & I agreed with you that Strongs #5278 for 'endure' is correct. And that word is 'hupomeno'. However, the word 'endure' is not just a word on its own, but is qualified by the words, "that shall endure". Here, Jesse would give a better explanation of Greek grammar, but the word 'hupomeno' is no longer just an 'endurance' (which it certainly is), but in those verses, it changes to 'hypomeinas', to give the intended meaning by the writer. So, what you should be reading in the verses, is not just 'endurance to the end', but 'having endured to the end'; and this now gives our reading a different perspective. Where a cursory reading would imply 'one can only be saved if he endures to the end', a proper reading would assert the 'one who is saved will endure to the end'.

Leaving those verses aside & just thinking of an English example to give you (which is unrelated to the verses); if I said to you, as passenger in my car, 'a car is coming right behind me', or expressed it this way, 'a car is right behind me', I'm sure you would pick up on the nuance, exactly where the other car is positioned, apart from the look on my face. Even though 'coming' is understood as to where the car is approximately located, how I express its correct position helps you understand if we are in imminent danger of being hit.

Re: 1 Peter 1:7. Peter is writing to the strangers (Christian sojourners (of the diaspora) in Asia Minor), who were going through 'manifold temptations' for their faith - faithfully living in a pagan & hostile society; as also in 1 Peter 3:14-17. Also, the coming trials ( 1 Peter 4:12-19) upon them & Christians throughout the world generally. Their faith was already on test, not just prior to Christ's coming, but having come through their present & future trials, their victory would be to their credit & Christ's recognition. GBU.

Dear God the Father in Heaven. We who worship you in the sacred name of Jesus Christ need strength and understanding. Give us prayers in our mouths so that we may pray prayers that men may turn to You, Lord! Prayers that they see their sin! Let me not God be one to provide for the well-being of mine. Let us pray like this so that those around us are in real need for their condition and life. That they see their sin and that they repent. This must be done according to Your will Lord, in Jesus name, Amen.

Personally, I think we should never stop and pray for our family members or genus. And not just them, but all people. So we persevere in all kinds of weather. The time just hasn't come yet because everyone has to mature, they have to see their condition. Only God can give them that vision.

I have as many years as you. Two have seen the Lord on their deathbed. I thank God for that. And everyone confesses that they believe in Jesus Christ. Then the prayers were not idle after all. What we do is what we do. They belong to God, all those who are prayed for daily. Hint: Be sure to visit them in hospitals, retirement homes, prisons, etc. Everywhere we go we have Jesus with us. Greet them with peace.

A forgiveness has great power.

Good luck and never lose hope. Have a happy Easter and fill your heart with peace in Jesus Name, love u in Christ. Galatians 4 chapter

Hello David. Yes I'll pray for you. God wants us to specifically say what we are asking of Him. Could you tell us you & your family needs? Is it financial, physical, spiritual, mental, or what exactly am I praying for to help you? I want to help you. E.

How many people know what John chapter 14 is saying?

He was talking to his generation, Jesus was talking about after the resurrection, like the day of Pentecost. 2000 years ago Jesus has been coming to everyone that invites Him into their lives.

Jesus is coming to you as the Comforter, as the Holy Spirit. He was God in the flesh, an individual to be the perfect sacrifice for sin on the cross, and then come back in spirit form to dwell in you! You are God's (Dwelling Place in Greek for mansion) You are the temple that he's building. Read these scriptures again

John 14:16-21

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Luke 17:20,21 I dare you to read these scriptures

Jesus is saying I'm going to dwell in you and I'm going to reach the world through you.

Don't separate Jesus from God or the Holy Spirit, they are one spirit and he is risen in you! So stop waiting for Jesus, stop waiting for heaven, Heaven is spirit! what is spirit? It's the fruit of the spirit, Love Joy Peace and a sound mind! Who's mind? The mind of Christ! Jesus Said I have no place to lay my head! Put on the mind of Christ! You can have heaven right hear right now while hell breaks lose all around you, God didn't give you the spirit of fear but of love joy peace it's Jesus! Christ In You! that's the mystery of your salvation.

And Tammy,

For someone to degrade a translation other than the KJV (that a believer may have actually used for many decades of their life) may cause such a person to think that the Bible is not reliable also.

My point is that there are a number of very reliable and acceptable translations available today, the KJV is one of them but not necessarily exclusively "the inspired" version. I can recommends the ESV or the NASB and the NIV, not because I think they are absolutely error-free, just as I don't think the KJV is error-free, but because they are 99.9% faithful to the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts currently available from which they translated into English.

With any translation from one language to another, there will be something lost in the language translated to. English is not as precise as the Greek nor as rich as the Hebrew. One word in English can refer to many things: for example, "meet" can mean getting together with another person (a verb) or a track competition (a noun) or can mean to satisfy a requirement or payment. Also it can mean to come to a compromise as in" meet in the middle". So, in this way, English is not as exacting as Greek.

So, I would hope that we can grant each other the grace to use whatever translation one chooses without being reviled for doing so. That is the real problem with this discussion.

Yes Tammy, my question was a lead question as to how then should we define the Great Tribulation? In the comment I referred to, you asked, "a question for those that side on the pre-tribulation rapture point of view". When I read your questions there, I sensed that the problem we have, lies in our understanding of what the Great Tribulation is & entails. I would think that those who subscribe to a post-trib rapture position, probably believe that the Great Tribulation involves both an extensive & more intense series of sufferings that might come upon all (i.e. the Church & others on the Earth). And to those who subscribe to a pre-trib postion, probably believe that the Great Tribulation IS the time of God's Wrath upon the Earth.

I'm aware that a few who have written on this & hold to the post-trib position, understand that God's Wrath is only poured out at the latter part, i.e. a post-trib suffering only to the unbelievers. But I ask, can it be that God's Wrath poured out is actually seen in the Great Tribulation? When we look at those explicit passages in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 (specifically on the heavenly appointed judgements, shown as the Seal, Trumpet, & Bowl Judgements), how should we understand this narrative given to us? If in the post-trib position, these judgements probably happen in very quick succession as part of God's Wrath (post-tribulation). If in the pre-trib camp, then these judgements happen over a period of time, even during anti-Christ's reign, & culminating at the final outpouring of God's Wrath, after which Jesus returns for the battle at Megiddo.

The reasons that I believe that Revelation 6 to 11 declare God's Wrath, rather than a much later time, is due to the nature of the sufferings, the origin of those calamities, & Revelation 6:17 itself declares, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" These calamities appear to me as much greater than what we today have seen in history past or are seeing now.