Satan's two sided approach: Offering the riches and favor of the world vs persecution
The dichotomy of a church and state union and a transformed society and persecution is much like the political realm in terms of two sides of the same coin. This is why such as in Hitler's Germany the church was infiltrated by those using it as an example symbolizing the truth of the movement and sadly by quoting some of Martin Luther's anti-semitic quotes. This unholy alliance showed its true colors; of course when the officially recognized agenda reflected and promoted Nazi doctrines and eventually resulted in arrest and assassination of Catholic then Protestant pastors who held onto scripture and didn't support this agenda.This process can be seen in the current Ukraine and Russia conflict with the officially recognized Easter Orthordox variant of Russian or Ukranian origin depending which side of the boundary one finds themselves. Therefore patriotism is at best a flawed concept; it can be seen as loyalty to the motherland; as it were for virtuous reasons such as families but culture and traditions of this world are always involving those of ungodly people.
Looking at the world's financial situation merely shows the affect of sin. Those proponents of making a better society (such as the "square deal" of Roosevelt) never dreamed of a 36 Trillion dollar debt only a couple of generations later. The concept of course of a cashless society involved an attempt to confiscate gold; and continued a debtor concept with a dollar not backed by silver; then currency not made of silver and finally pennies not even made primarily of copper. Thus we have had a history of periodic shutdowns of government which at the present time with a record length show no sign of ending anytime soon.
So; inevitably once things break down someone has to be blamed and thus we see the general anarchy of society. Alas the magical solution of one world government; cashless money and the mark.
When it comes to government, it is inevitable that government will be involved with its citizens for better or for worse. Some forms of government are better than others overall. I do think that the constitutional republic of the U.S. is the best in the world, although it has many areas that intrude too much on the citizenry and the greed and lust for power by many politicians and entities within government are aspects that are not easy to restrain even in this governmental system. However, I would rather live under a constitutional republic that any other government because it allows the most freedom for its citizens to pursue what God leads one to do with their daily life and work and faith. So, this republic I desire to keep, as one early leader spoke about.
As to the government shutdown, it is all about political partisanship. The shutdown could have ended weeks ago, but it seems as though the Dems wanted it to continue until it affected some of those who they wish to woo to vote for their side in the recent election. Now that the election is over, I think that we will see the Dems begin to work with the Repubs to re-open the Government by resolving budget issues and making necessary changes to Obamacare.
To me, it is all "smoke and mirrors" to get votes and support for policies. It is definitely not about reducing the budget, national debt, or cutting wasteful spending to reduce the tax burden on the citizenry, especially from the Dems. But the Repubs have culpability in this, too. having the majority in both houses, there is much more they can do to help taxpayers. In the situation of the shutdown and CR it does involve a supermajority to get it passed and return to the norm.
Even so, we do not have a theocracy, and so as citizens, we are to be salt and light among those who do not follow our Lord Jesus. Our witness will used by the Holy Spirit to either attract unbelievers to Jesus or convict others.
Your wisdom and insight are as usual appreciated (although I'm a bit envious as you have a much better way of writing and organizing thoughts that are more complex than mine).
That being said, I have a couple matters I'm dealing with right now. First there is a friend of mine who I have been helping increasingly in a financial way who has had his bathroom in a state of disarray after a couple repairs to stop a leak. Financially he would be better off if he lived in my house where I could charge a manageable rate; although for now he has pneumonia and the house isn't clean enough for him to be here and stay healthy and I certainly don't want to get sick either. He; as you probably are aware has amassed debt; he gets some military benefits but it is a bottomless pit essentially between his credit card issues and other things well over 50k indebt. I told him that some sort of credit consolidation was in order to continue to assist him at the rate I have at least say 6 months from now. As for now; with my Dad technically owning the house I am NOT legally permitted to have anyone live here as more than a guest beyond 30 days. if it IS God's will then I need to get beyond this point of feeling like I am being swallowed up in the issue and out of control and am asking for His peace and strength to do it; letting him in at all at this point with any stipulation could likely mean he wouldn't be able to leave. For now; I have had to say no. For now it is a constant concern; and the immediate thing is that if his meds don't work he will be hospitalized; so prayer is appreciated. When I feel overwhelmed it is very hard to pray on my end.
I have also finally broken membership ties with my local church but still involved in peripheral events in evenings. I went the over hour drive to a church that I researched who believes as I do on the whole hotbed of the divorce remarriage issue.
It was even better than I could have expected but too far to go every week.
I am sorry to hear that your friend has pneumonia.
It seems that debt consolidation will be a good avenue for him.
No need to feel envious. We all have our own style in writing and if we pray for God to guide us as we write, He will.
I am a better writer than a speaker, as per the way God gifted me. Others are far better at speaking. Communication between people is what we do as creatures made in God's image and it involves much more than speaking or writing. How we act communicates volumes, as well. We just need to heed the guidance of the Holy Spirit and trust that He will work through us in every situation.
I will pray for your friend and for you as you wish to do what is best for him and yourself.
I am glad that this new fellowship aligns with your convictions concerning divorce and remarriage. It is rare to find that in fellowships today. The laxness about this important teaching of Jesus in most congregations is concerning to me as well.
The damaging effects of the common occurrence of those who have remarried after divorce within the church fellowships brings many problems to these families involved as well as on the congregations especially when divorced and remarried couples are given places of leadership involving preaching, leading worship, and serving on councils as elders and deacons.
For me, I have come to the conclusion that finding a fellowship that best aligns with what I believe the Scriptures teach about who God is, what Jesus has done for us, how one comes to be saved, the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the elect, and major doctrines of our faith is where I fit in even though this topic of divorce and remarriage is only partially aligned with the teachings of Jesus and Paul.
For you, this is a big matter since you are one who has gone through divorce and wish to remain single in order to follow what Jesus teaches, and so, how a fellowship deals with this affects you more than it does others.
This is what I hear on the subject we discussed before.
We need to show grace.
There is no perfect church.
So and so was in that (aforementioned) situation and they did so much for the church.
I'm being unloving.
I'm being a gossip.
I just say look to the Word and Scriptures; let God be true and every man a liar ( Romans 3:4).
I would argue that in communion; for instance what others do affects the whole church but I appreciate your listening ear on the subject in that you take the Word seriously.
In regard to the other subject of politics; it does seem they are hinting at least by "turkey day" this stuff may be resolved. Maybe you're right.
My friend did spend several hours today witnessing to someone working on his car. I need to hear these things as it shows he does know the Lord so my time and expense aren't totally wasted; albeit the immaturity is apparent. Ironically he sent me an article today talking about smoking and how you basically can't clean it out without totally gutting a home. Shows he wouldn't want to live here I guess; although my Dad spent all his time upstairs doing that as my mom wouldn't allow it in the house for many years anyway in the downstairs.
I'm thinking of going back to guitar lessons; but have no venue as it were in that regard. I guess you can pray about that and having continued wisdom with coin collecting which has not been as profitable of late. I could seek a second job but am not in need of the money at present. This new church seems to be working well but in the winter is too far away and I don't have a great vehicle in that situation. I can't find anything closer; although the Lord could do that as He did with the one (at first) that I had been attending here; and previously in Pittsburgh even when I couldn't find one on an online search regarding my view of the remarriage issue. (the ones that do which are Mennonite are also into LGB stuff; go figure).
I really do not know what a solution to this mess that exists in the church at large. Do we create a new sect that does not allow divorced/remarried people to attend of become members. What about drunkards? What about those who lack self-control of their anger? The list could be endless.
I do think we are to truthfully teach what the Scriptures do on the topic of divorce/remarriage because it is a serious matter. And we should not be spoken to from others as you or I have been in accusatory ways. Is there room for ministry to take place to people who have divorced and remarried that is based on what Scripture teaches in which we do not condone their choices/ongoing sin but be gracious to them and let the Holy Spirit be the one who convicts them?
I guess perhaps the best we can do is to teach and warn others and let God do the work in them that will guide them to live godly lives.
Steve and I will be celebrating our 46th anniversary next month. We are going the distance, thankfully, and God has blessed us through the ups and downs of life together. I wish all believers would have a lifelong marriage. When we are young and choosing to marry, how little we truly know-whether about our future spouse, about what marriage really entails, whether we realistically know what we want our partner, marriage to be like and what kind of partner we want to be. But, in times past marriages were arranged by parents without courtship and such. Those were valid marriages that were to last for a lifetime, too. I guess the key truly is to entrusting our life together to God in a covenantal way, bring prayerful over our lifetime, and aiming to become more and more like Jesus in all of our ways and with one another.
As for your new church situation, I thought you said you can access services online. Perhaps that will work for you through the winter months. But an hour drive each way may be a fruitful time for you to commune with the Lord each Sunday!
The way fellow believers responded to you sounds familiar.
When I approached my pastor at a church (which I did leave after a number of unpleasant encounters on topics) about a divorced and remarried person who in the congregation who was allowed to preach, lead worship, etc. I was told I was being judgmental and pharisaical for speaking up about it to him. I had not said anything to any other person in the fellowship.
In our present church situation (of 25 years) I asked the pastor early on what was the teaching of this church on that. He said that on the whole it agrees with what Jesus said, but in pastoral care, many people come into the fellowship who already are divorced and remarried and so this is where grace and love comes in.
We are to love one another deeply because love "covers a multitude of sins".( 1 Peter 4:8) but we need to balanced that with standing firm about what Jesus has taught. I guess it is a tight-rope kind of thing. We can advise people considering divorce what Scripture teaches about this and remarriage and we can not support remarriages of divorced people.
But if these remarriages have occurred and children are born to these marriages are we to insist that the marriage be dissolved? Many of these remarriages have children from both prior marriages and children from this marriage. the children from the first marriages have already been traumatized from the first divorce and are already enduring shared custody arrangements. Do we traumatize these children again by separating and annulling the marriage?
It seems to me that the church greatly dropped the ball on this topic loosing the battle with worldly view in the past few generations. How do recover this truth in actual practice in our congregations? Do we create yet another sect that does not allow for divorced/remarried persons to be in the fellowship? I can't say that I really have any real solution here.
Children are a blessing from the Lord. Theoretically; of course if someone did dissolve a second marriage the kids from that would still be their kids but the heritage in a way of children and what God recognizes as a covenant He establishes suffers; as do the kids from a first marriage entering a second. If the first spouse has died; of course God has terminated the life long covenant as well as the parental duties of the parent who has left this earth.
I have had that said to me as you pointed out in part 2; namely that God will convict someone. That is hard to do if a Pastor doesn't adhere to sound preaching on this doctrine and there is a nearly uniform consensus that it is ok somehow. Of course if we actually believed this we would tell nonbelievers the same advice. Again the scriptures show examples of this with John the Baptist and the times Abraham and I believe Isaac tried to pass on their wives as sisters. This affected pagan rulers badly; as God remains who He is with these moral truths wherever His presence is. Now when we don't live up to standards the world rightly calls us hypocrites and justifies deviant lifestyles since we have such a cavalier attitude towards marriage in the church.
The problem I have experienced is discerning evil as well as impartial observations with those in these situations; these include having demonic apparitions around them; uncontrolled rage and increased health issues. The other thing on the table (since you are a thinker) is the lack of divorce for any Bible characters in scripture; albeit multiple marriages. It seems in my limited understanding that both wives in that case had some sort of agreement with the man to provide for them and although it wasn't God's plan it seems He honored both covenants at the time. The verse about God hating divorce sort of sums up that such an act is worse than multiple wives; althiugh it is illegal here and against God's design.
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Matthew 6:14
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:"
Ephesians 4:32
"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
The dichotomy of a church and state union and a transformed society and persecution is much like the political realm in terms of two sides of the same coin. This is why such as in Hitler's Germany the church was infiltrated by those using it as an example symbolizing the truth of the movement and sadly by quoting some of Martin Luther's anti-semitic quotes. This unholy alliance showed its true colors; of course when the officially recognized agenda reflected and promoted Nazi doctrines and eventually resulted in arrest and assassination of Catholic then Protestant pastors who held onto scripture and didn't support this agenda.This process can be seen in the current Ukraine and Russia conflict with the officially recognized Easter Orthordox variant of Russian or Ukranian origin depending which side of the boundary one finds themselves. Therefore patriotism is at best a flawed concept; it can be seen as loyalty to the motherland; as it were for virtuous reasons such as families but culture and traditions of this world are always involving those of ungodly people.
Looking at the world's financial situation merely shows the affect of sin. Those proponents of making a better society (such as the "square deal" of Roosevelt) never dreamed of a 36 Trillion dollar debt only a couple of generations later. The concept of course of a cashless society involved an attempt to confiscate gold; and continued a debtor concept with a dollar not backed by silver; then currency not made of silver and finally pennies not even made primarily of copper. Thus we have had a history of periodic shutdowns of government which at the present time with a record length show no sign of ending anytime soon.
So; inevitably once things break down someone has to be blamed and thus we see the general anarchy of society. Alas the magical solution of one world government; cashless money and the mark.
Good food for thought.
When it comes to government, it is inevitable that government will be involved with its citizens for better or for worse. Some forms of government are better than others overall. I do think that the constitutional republic of the U.S. is the best in the world, although it has many areas that intrude too much on the citizenry and the greed and lust for power by many politicians and entities within government are aspects that are not easy to restrain even in this governmental system. However, I would rather live under a constitutional republic that any other government because it allows the most freedom for its citizens to pursue what God leads one to do with their daily life and work and faith. So, this republic I desire to keep, as one early leader spoke about.
As to the government shutdown, it is all about political partisanship. The shutdown could have ended weeks ago, but it seems as though the Dems wanted it to continue until it affected some of those who they wish to woo to vote for their side in the recent election. Now that the election is over, I think that we will see the Dems begin to work with the Repubs to re-open the Government by resolving budget issues and making necessary changes to Obamacare.
To me, it is all "smoke and mirrors" to get votes and support for policies. It is definitely not about reducing the budget, national debt, or cutting wasteful spending to reduce the tax burden on the citizenry, especially from the Dems. But the Repubs have culpability in this, too. having the majority in both houses, there is much more they can do to help taxpayers. In the situation of the shutdown and CR it does involve a supermajority to get it passed and return to the norm.
Even so, we do not have a theocracy, and so as citizens, we are to be salt and light among those who do not follow our Lord Jesus. Our witness will used by the Holy Spirit to either attract unbelievers to Jesus or convict others.
That being said, I have a couple matters I'm dealing with right now. First there is a friend of mine who I have been helping increasingly in a financial way who has had his bathroom in a state of disarray after a couple repairs to stop a leak. Financially he would be better off if he lived in my house where I could charge a manageable rate; although for now he has pneumonia and the house isn't clean enough for him to be here and stay healthy and I certainly don't want to get sick either. He; as you probably are aware has amassed debt; he gets some military benefits but it is a bottomless pit essentially between his credit card issues and other things well over 50k indebt. I told him that some sort of credit consolidation was in order to continue to assist him at the rate I have at least say 6 months from now. As for now; with my Dad technically owning the house I am NOT legally permitted to have anyone live here as more than a guest beyond 30 days. if it IS God's will then I need to get beyond this point of feeling like I am being swallowed up in the issue and out of control and am asking for His peace and strength to do it; letting him in at all at this point with any stipulation could likely mean he wouldn't be able to leave. For now; I have had to say no. For now it is a constant concern; and the immediate thing is that if his meds don't work he will be hospitalized; so prayer is appreciated. When I feel overwhelmed it is very hard to pray on my end.
I have also finally broken membership ties with my local church but still involved in peripheral events in evenings. I went the over hour drive to a church that I researched who believes as I do on the whole hotbed of the divorce remarriage issue.
It was even better than I could have expected but too far to go every week.
I am sorry to hear that your friend has pneumonia.
It seems that debt consolidation will be a good avenue for him.
No need to feel envious. We all have our own style in writing and if we pray for God to guide us as we write, He will.
I am a better writer than a speaker, as per the way God gifted me. Others are far better at speaking. Communication between people is what we do as creatures made in God's image and it involves much more than speaking or writing. How we act communicates volumes, as well. We just need to heed the guidance of the Holy Spirit and trust that He will work through us in every situation.
I will pray for your friend and for you as you wish to do what is best for him and yourself.
I am glad that this new fellowship aligns with your convictions concerning divorce and remarriage. It is rare to find that in fellowships today. The laxness about this important teaching of Jesus in most congregations is concerning to me as well.
The damaging effects of the common occurrence of those who have remarried after divorce within the church fellowships brings many problems to these families involved as well as on the congregations especially when divorced and remarried couples are given places of leadership involving preaching, leading worship, and serving on councils as elders and deacons.
For me, I have come to the conclusion that finding a fellowship that best aligns with what I believe the Scriptures teach about who God is, what Jesus has done for us, how one comes to be saved, the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the elect, and major doctrines of our faith is where I fit in even though this topic of divorce and remarriage is only partially aligned with the teachings of Jesus and Paul.
For you, this is a big matter since you are one who has gone through divorce and wish to remain single in order to follow what Jesus teaches, and so, how a fellowship deals with this affects you more than it does others.
We need to show grace.
There is no perfect church.
So and so was in that (aforementioned) situation and they did so much for the church.
I'm being unloving.
I'm being a gossip.
I just say look to the Word and Scriptures; let God be true and every man a liar ( Romans 3:4).
I would argue that in communion; for instance what others do affects the whole church but I appreciate your listening ear on the subject in that you take the Word seriously.
In regard to the other subject of politics; it does seem they are hinting at least by "turkey day" this stuff may be resolved. Maybe you're right.
My friend did spend several hours today witnessing to someone working on his car. I need to hear these things as it shows he does know the Lord so my time and expense aren't totally wasted; albeit the immaturity is apparent. Ironically he sent me an article today talking about smoking and how you basically can't clean it out without totally gutting a home. Shows he wouldn't want to live here I guess; although my Dad spent all his time upstairs doing that as my mom wouldn't allow it in the house for many years anyway in the downstairs.
I'm thinking of going back to guitar lessons; but have no venue as it were in that regard. I guess you can pray about that and having continued wisdom with coin collecting which has not been as profitable of late. I could seek a second job but am not in need of the money at present. This new church seems to be working well but in the winter is too far away and I don't have a great vehicle in that situation. I can't find anything closer; although the Lord could do that as He did with the one (at first) that I had been attending here; and previously in Pittsburgh even when I couldn't find one on an online search regarding my view of the remarriage issue. (the ones that do which are Mennonite are also into LGB stuff; go figure).
Glad you're my friend even if far away/incognito.
Pt. 2
I really do not know what a solution to this mess that exists in the church at large. Do we create a new sect that does not allow divorced/remarried people to attend of become members. What about drunkards? What about those who lack self-control of their anger? The list could be endless.
I do think we are to truthfully teach what the Scriptures do on the topic of divorce/remarriage because it is a serious matter. And we should not be spoken to from others as you or I have been in accusatory ways. Is there room for ministry to take place to people who have divorced and remarried that is based on what Scripture teaches in which we do not condone their choices/ongoing sin but be gracious to them and let the Holy Spirit be the one who convicts them?
I guess perhaps the best we can do is to teach and warn others and let God do the work in them that will guide them to live godly lives.
Steve and I will be celebrating our 46th anniversary next month. We are going the distance, thankfully, and God has blessed us through the ups and downs of life together. I wish all believers would have a lifelong marriage. When we are young and choosing to marry, how little we truly know-whether about our future spouse, about what marriage really entails, whether we realistically know what we want our partner, marriage to be like and what kind of partner we want to be. But, in times past marriages were arranged by parents without courtship and such. Those were valid marriages that were to last for a lifetime, too. I guess the key truly is to entrusting our life together to God in a covenantal way, bring prayerful over our lifetime, and aiming to become more and more like Jesus in all of our ways and with one another.
As for your new church situation, I thought you said you can access services online. Perhaps that will work for you through the winter months. But an hour drive each way may be a fruitful time for you to commune with the Lord each Sunday!
The way fellow believers responded to you sounds familiar.
When I approached my pastor at a church (which I did leave after a number of unpleasant encounters on topics) about a divorced and remarried person who in the congregation who was allowed to preach, lead worship, etc. I was told I was being judgmental and pharisaical for speaking up about it to him. I had not said anything to any other person in the fellowship.
In our present church situation (of 25 years) I asked the pastor early on what was the teaching of this church on that. He said that on the whole it agrees with what Jesus said, but in pastoral care, many people come into the fellowship who already are divorced and remarried and so this is where grace and love comes in.
We are to love one another deeply because love "covers a multitude of sins".( 1 Peter 4:8) but we need to balanced that with standing firm about what Jesus has taught. I guess it is a tight-rope kind of thing. We can advise people considering divorce what Scripture teaches about this and remarriage and we can not support remarriages of divorced people.
But if these remarriages have occurred and children are born to these marriages are we to insist that the marriage be dissolved? Many of these remarriages have children from both prior marriages and children from this marriage. the children from the first marriages have already been traumatized from the first divorce and are already enduring shared custody arrangements. Do we traumatize these children again by separating and annulling the marriage?
It seems to me that the church greatly dropped the ball on this topic loosing the battle with worldly view in the past few generations. How do recover this truth in actual practice in our congregations? Do we create yet another sect that does not allow for divorced/remarried persons to be in the fellowship? I can't say that I really have any real solution here.
see Pt. 2
I have had that said to me as you pointed out in part 2; namely that God will convict someone. That is hard to do if a Pastor doesn't adhere to sound preaching on this doctrine and there is a nearly uniform consensus that it is ok somehow. Of course if we actually believed this we would tell nonbelievers the same advice. Again the scriptures show examples of this with John the Baptist and the times Abraham and I believe Isaac tried to pass on their wives as sisters. This affected pagan rulers badly; as God remains who He is with these moral truths wherever His presence is. Now when we don't live up to standards the world rightly calls us hypocrites and justifies deviant lifestyles since we have such a cavalier attitude towards marriage in the church.
The problem I have experienced is discerning evil as well as impartial observations with those in these situations; these include having demonic apparitions around them; uncontrolled rage and increased health issues. The other thing on the table (since you are a thinker) is the lack of divorce for any Bible characters in scripture; albeit multiple marriages. It seems in my limited understanding that both wives in that case had some sort of agreement with the man to provide for them and although it wasn't God's plan it seems He honored both covenants at the time. The verse about God hating divorce sort of sums up that such an act is worse than multiple wives; althiugh it is illegal here and against God's design.
"nuff said". Agape.
RP
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Matthew 6:14
"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:"
Ephesians 4:32
"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Blessings
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