The Rapture is not only the catching away of believers but also their transfer to a heavenly destiny. Scripture consistently distinguishes the Body of Christ's hope from Israel's earthly kingdom promises.
Christ's Direct Promise
In John 14:2-3, Jesus declares, "In my Father's house are many mansions I go to prepare a place for you I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Since Christ ascended into heaven ( Acts 1:9-11), the "place" prepared is in heaven. At the Rapture, He receives believers to that heavenly home.
Paul's Revelation of Our Heavenly Citizenship
Paul affirms that "our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven" ( Phil. 3:20-21). Believers await Christ from heaven, and He will transform their bodies to share His heavenly glory. In Col. 3:1-4, Paul writes that when Christ appears, we shall appear with Him in glory. Eph. 2:6-7 further shows we are already spiritually seated in heavenly places, confirming our destiny above.
The Rapture Texts Lead Upward
In 1 Thess. 4:16-17, believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, leaving the earth behind. The transformation in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 fits saints for life in glory, not an earthly existence. This upward catching away marks the beginning of our eternal presence with Christ in His realm.
Contrast With Israel's Hope
Israel's prophetic saints are promised an earthly kingdom ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28). The Church, the Body of Christ, is promised heavenly blessings ( Eph. 1:3). These two programs remain distinct, preserving the unique hope of the Church.
Conclusion: The saints are not left on earth after the Rapture. Christ Himself promised to receive us into the Father's house. Paul declares our citizenship is in heaven, our blessings are in heavenly places, and the Rapture unites us with Christ above, forever in His presence.
I recall reading in Hebrews 11:14-16 tells us that the OT saints, including Abraham, of whom the promises were made, were desiring a better country than an earthly one, specifically one that is heavenly, and in vs.39-40 we read that these did not receive the promises they hoped to receive because God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This clearly says that those OT saints receive what we receive from God as our hope and fulfillment of what He has promised. We receive the same thing that is better than an earthly eternity.
In Heb. 11:10, we are told that Abraham was looking for a heavenly city, the New Jerusalem made by the hand of God, not by human hands.
Heb. 12:22-24 in speaking to Hebrew believers says that they have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, inhabited with angels and the church of the firstborn, to God, to spirits made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant,
So, as I read these chapters, I understand that believing Hebrews receive the same destiny as believing Gentiles.
I do not see verses that speak of unbelieving Hebrews receiving an earthly destiny.
Please cite Scriptures that support the dispensational viewpoint you presented here.
In summary: Hebrews highlights Israel's faith and destiny through Christ's work, but from a dispensational lens, those OT saints will inherit their earthly kingdom centered in the New Jerusalem, while the Body of Christ enjoys a distinct heavenly hope revealed only through Paul's gospel. Both share perfection in Christ, but their programs and destinies remain distinct.
I ran out of room and wanted to complete my thoughts.
As one who, until coming to this forum, never knew the dispensational way of interpreting the Bible, nor really any other interpretive theory, I find that my interpretations align well with the reformists-Luther, Calvin, and others that followed them even though I have only recently learned the theology they propose.
I am in agreement with most of what is taught by the reformers. But having learned much about dispensational theology and tenets, there is very little that I agree with as to the approach to Scriptures that forms their doctrines.
Even so, I appreciate your contribution and replies to me. I am always thankful when someone tries to give a reason for why they believe a certain way.
But I pray we will continue to walk in the blessing, promise, and hope of all the saints, including Abraham and all who are spoken of in Hebrews 11, because that is all of our inheritance in Christ, which is abundant life, eternal reconciliation with God, the communion of the saints in one body, and the same exact eternal destiny for all who believe.
I must disagree with your analysis on the basis of what Paul teaches in Galatians.
Vs. 3:6-9 affirms that gentiles who believe and are justified through faith, are the children of Abraham and are blessed as Abraham is blessed with the promises and inheritance being possessed by all who believe the gospel as Abraham did. (also vs. 14). vs. 16 states that Jesus is the promised Seed of Abraham and that those who believe in Him receive the promise also (vs.22).
Paul affirms in vs. 26 that believers whether Jews or Gentiles are THE children of Abraham and vs. 28 says that in Christ there is not a distinction between Jew or Gentile, both being brought together as one in Christ ( Eph 2:15) re-affirms this.
And vs. 29 clearly states: and if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If we are to interpret this passage literally and at face value as correct doctrine without overlaying it with dispensational ideas, it clearly says that there is one people of God, believers in Jesus only, and at ALL in Christ receive the promises and inheritance of the covenant made with Abraham by the Godhead. (vs. 17)
Since I do not overlay Scripture with the tenets of dispensationalism, I firmly attest that there are not two peoples of God-Israel and the Church-as this passage clearly teaches; that both Jews and Gentiles are one people in Christ.
I attest that we are not taught in Scripture to keep Israel and the Church distinct from each other, rather that Christ has brought Israel and Gentiles together in His body as the Church-which is the heir of promise made to Sarah while ethnic Israel is not chosen, rather is children of the flesh-of Hagar (4:22-31).
And Paul defines those who are made a new creation in Christ as the true Israel of God (5:15-16).
I realize that those who apply dispensational principles to interpret Scriptures differ greatly from those, like myself, who have never known what dispensationalism teaches.
Apart from using dispensations wrongly the confusion about Isreal and its eventual end is because people are mixing two things up . The church which is His body made up of both Jew and gentile " One new Man" says Paul . Thinking on it you also have the Bride of Christ that will primarily but not exclusively be made up of gentiles who will reign with Him in heaven .
But the church filled with both Jew and gentile will reign on earth .
But it is not the gentile church they Jews will join but are they not the " natural " who will one day be reheated in? The gentiles being the wild now grafted in?
But in any even both Jew and Gentile come by the same way . For when Adam sinned God gave them a covering but also a promise . Faithful Abel offering eas respected because he followed the pattern God had laid down in the garden and by his offering confessed his sin the righteousness of God and out his faith ( by that lamb) in the promise . So it was to all who came after .till Jesus came fulfilling that promise who wouid bruise the head of the serpent etc .
There was only one way into the presence of God in the Ld Testament there is only one way in the New.
The State of Isreal is another matter and they are not there so established because of their righteousness but because of Gods righteousness . And they will face a lot more including" Jacobs trouble" and the anti Christ before the Lord will save them in a day from all their enemies .
I have studied Galatians carefully and Paul lays out very pointedly that true believers are Abraham's seed, children, heirs and the true Israel of God. No where does Paul state that ethnic Israel is the inheritor of the promises and covenant made to Abraham. He explicitly states that ethnic Israel is of the bondswoman Hagar and her son Ishmael. Paul is saying that those who are Israelites after the flesh (born as such) ARE NOT part of the blessed seed of Abraham, rather Jesus is the promised Seed and all who believe, including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all OT remnant believers, are, by the fact that we are in Christ, are also the ONLY legitimate seed of Abraham.
In identifying ethnic Israel with Ishmael, Paul is teaching that, except for the elect remnant, Israel is "cast out" as Hagar and Ishmael were.
Galatians 6:15-16 tells us who the Israel of God is-only those who are new creations in Christ. I do not think this verse is speaking of two groups of people, as you state, because this whole epistle is written to show that there is one people of God-the true Israel of God-all who are brought to faith in Jesus, the promised Seed and heir of the covenant promises to Abraham, which are not literal, earthly promises, rather spiritual, heavenly promises of the New Covenant. The literal earthly promises are a "type" pointing to the true "antitype" which are all of the real, actual, spiritual promises believers inherit in Christ by faith.
I know we have conversed on this before, so it seems we have both presented our understanding of Paul's doctrines laid out in Galatians. May the Lord bless all who read what Lbooth, you, and I have written with correct understanding of God's truth given through Paul.
I haven't been able to read through your and Lbooth1955 postings thoroughly, maybe I will this weekend.
I'm not sure I have the context!
I believe you, myself, and Lbooth1955 agree that salvation is by Christ alone throughout all ages! That should have been clear.
As for Galatians 6:15-16 I'm pretty sure you have that wrong!
The context to the Galatians is Paul's defense against the Judaizers
Galatians 6:12-13.
It is not about Jesus being the promised Seed that we find in other passages of scripture.
He's following up on what he told them in the previous chapter.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing..ect ect..
Galatians 5:1-7
Then he continues on in chapter 6:15-16.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy,
These are those IN CHRIST!
And then he says
and upon the Israel of God.
"AND UPON" the Israel of God.
This is a separate group.
Israel is never called a new creature!
Gigi even if this did refer to the Church it still doesn't annul the future Abrahamic/Davidic Kingdom promises given which is the context of this topic.
Christ being the promised Seed benefits all ages but it's not the context or topic at hand.
Also, Christ being the promised Seed is not the same thing in meaning as the covenant promises given to Abraham and David and later confirmed to Mary by Gabriel.
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1:32-33"
More perhaps later after I read through the thread.
Be careful of trying to make one doctrine the means to understand all scripture. They can't nor are they designed to do so .
The dispensations of God are a case in point and while the scruptures clearly teach and speak of them they are not a short cut that unlocks all the scriptures . Sooner or later if 'you' go down that road you will have to twist the scriptures to make them fit and like others defend dispensationalism to the death against all comers .
The " sound doctrines" of Scripture are like the bones of the body . Each has their place and function and working together edify the body and give it strength and stability .
AS you read the remainder of Rom. 11, you will find that Paul attests to who the true Israel is, that is the one people of God. It is the olive tree (the elect people of God-true Israel) in who are branches both natural (the remnant of ethnic Israel who were of faith), ingrafted Gentiles, and also re-grafted ethnic Israelites who turn from their unbelief to Jesus for salvation) vs. 11-23.
When Paul speaks of all Israel being saved in vs.26-27 he is summing up what he had taught in the previous section, that those who believe the gospel and come to faith in Jesus are members of the olive tree (elect people of God) and Paul states that the covenant God makes with His people is one of salvation from sin, quoting is. 27:9; 59:21.
The promise given to Adam and Eve in the garden of the promised seed and His work has always been about salvation from sin. Noah knew that, Abraham knew that, David knew that, John the Baptist knew that, the apostles knew that including Paul.
Vs. 31-32 speaks of God concluding them all (all of the elect of God's people-Israelite or Gentile) unto unbelief (as the default state of all mankind) so that He might have mercy of all who comprise the Israel of God.
Gerald, I do not know really why you addressed your post to me or really what you were trying to tell me in it. All I could get from it is to beware of using one doctrine to interpret all of Scripture. Please know that I do not do this.
The Scriptures teach many doctrines and we should learn these and consider them when interpreting any portion of Scripture.
Also, the Scriptures do not teach contrary truths. So we should search Scriptures even more if it seems that Scriptural teachings contradict one another.
As to what I posted on Galatians, I also would like to refer to Paul speaking in Romans.
In Rom. 4:11-25 speaks again of Abraham and his fatherhood. Paul clearly says that he is the father of all who have faith as he has whether circumcised or uncircumcised. His faith was in God who would raise the Son from the dead, that is Jesus, (vs. 23) as Abraham was given the gospel during his lifetime and this is why he believed that Isaac could be resurrected after he sacrificed him in obedience to God. He had been shown Jesus and His life, death, and resurrection. ( Jn. 8:56-59).
in Rom. 9 Paul states that not all who are of Israel are truly Israel. Paul sees Israel as a chosen people of God apart from ethnic Israel. (see vs. 8) and He again speaks of those which are of the flesh and those which are of the promise (Isaac) as he did in Galatians. In vs. 23-26, Paul identifies both Jews and gentiles as God chosen children. And in vs. 27, Paul speaks of ethnic Israel that only a remnant will be saved, quoting both Hosea 2::23, 1:10 and Is.10:20-23.
In Romans 10:12 Paul again says that there is no difference between the Jew or Greeks (Gentiles), for Jesus is the same Lord who is rich towards (gives salvation) to all that call upon Him. The promise and blessing of Abraham is a spiritual blessing, being counted as righteous before God, and so it is with all Israel, the promise and covenant is one of salvation and a spiritual dwelling with God.
Rom. 11 speaks about God keeping a remnant from ethnic Israel, all whom He foreknew, having been chosen before creation, according to the election of grace (vs.2-5) See pt. 2
The OT saints did not receive their promises yet. Why? Because resurrection and kingdom blessings await Christ's return (cf. Dan. 12:2; Matt. 19:28). The "better thing for us" refers to the new covenant and Christ's finished work-blessings that must come through Messiah before anyone (Israel or the Body) is made perfect. But dispensationally, Israel's perfection comes in their kingdom ( Acts 3:19-21), while the Church's completion is at the Rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18). Both groups are perfected in Christ, yet their destinies differ.
4. Heavenly Jerusalem ( Heb. 12:22-24)
The "heavenly Jerusalem" is the capital city of Israel's kingdom hope ( Rev. 21:10-12). Hebrews addresses believing Jews who will inherit that city as part of their program. The Body of Christ, however, is said to be "blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3), and our conversation/citizenship is "in heaven" ( Phil. 3:20-21)-not tied to Jerusalem.
5. Distinction of Destinies
Israel (believing Hebrews, OT saints): Inherit the land forever, centered in New Jerusalem, under Christ's reign ( Gen. 17:7-8; Isa. 60; Ezek. 37:21-28; Rev. 21:2, 12).
Body of Christ (believing Gentiles and Jews today): Caught up to heaven before the Tribulation, seated with Christ in the heavenlies ( Eph. 2:6-7; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Unbelieving Hebrews: Like any unbelievers, they face judgment and eternal separation ( John 8:24; Rom. 9:6; Heb. 10:26-27). Scripture does not promise them an earthly "second chance" destiny.
Key Scriptures supporting the dispensational distinction
Israel's promises are earthly: Gen. 13:14-15; Jer. 23:5-8; Ezek. 37:21-28.
The Church's hope is heavenly: Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 1:5.
Israel's kingdom is tied to New Jerusalem on earth: Rev. 21:2, 10-12.
OT saints into Israel's kingdom program: Dan. 12:2-3; Matt. 8:11.
Great question-you've hit a passage that at first glance looks like it merges the destinies of Old Testament saints, believing Israel, and the Body of Christ. From a dispensational viewpoint, though, we need to carefully distinguish between God's program for Israel (prophecy, earthly kingdom promises) and His program for the Body of Christ (the mystery, heavenly calling). Let's walk through it step by step.
1. Hebrews and Its Audience
The book of Hebrews is written to Jewish believers, encouraging them not to fall back into Judaism but to press on in faith. Its focus is not the Body of Christ but believing Israel within the prophetic kingdom program (cf. Heb. 2:3-5, the "world to come" spoken by the prophets). This is critical, because it means the promises emphasized there are connected to Israel's hope.
2. Abraham and the Heavenly City ( Heb. 11:10, 14-16)
Dispensationalists agree Abraham looked beyond earthly Canaan. He expected resurrection and a perfected kingdom under God's reign (cf. Heb. 11:17-19). But note: the "heavenly city" in Hebrews is not the same as the Church's destiny "in the heavenlies" ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20). Revelation 21-22 shows the New Jerusalem descending to earth to be the center of Israel's eternal inheritance. It is "heavenly" in origin and quality, but it comes down to earth ( Rev. 21:2). Thus, Abraham's hope remains tied to the earth through Israel's covenants, not to the Church's mystery program.
The Rapture is not only the catching away of believers but also their transfer to a heavenly destiny. Scripture consistently distinguishes the Body of Christ's hope from Israel's earthly kingdom promises.
Christ's Direct Promise
In John 14:2-3, Jesus declares, "In my Father's house are many mansions I go to prepare a place for you I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Since Christ ascended into heaven ( Acts 1:9-11), the "place" prepared is in heaven. At the Rapture, He receives believers to that heavenly home.
Paul's Revelation of Our Heavenly Citizenship
Paul affirms that "our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven" ( Phil. 3:20-21). Believers await Christ from heaven, and He will transform their bodies to share His heavenly glory. In Col. 3:1-4, Paul writes that when Christ appears, we shall appear with Him in glory. Eph. 2:6-7 further shows we are already spiritually seated in heavenly places, confirming our destiny above.
The Rapture Texts Lead Upward
In 1 Thess. 4:16-17, believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, leaving the earth behind. The transformation in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 fits saints for life in glory, not an earthly existence. This upward catching away marks the beginning of our eternal presence with Christ in His realm.
Contrast With Israel's Hope
Israel's prophetic saints are promised an earthly kingdom ( Jer. 23:5-6; Matt. 19:28). The Church, the Body of Christ, is promised heavenly blessings ( Eph. 1:3). These two programs remain distinct, preserving the unique hope of the Church.
Conclusion: The saints are not left on earth after the Rapture. Christ Himself promised to receive us into the Father's house. Paul declares our citizenship is in heaven, our blessings are in heavenly places, and the Rapture unites us with Christ above, forever in His presence.
Grace and Peace.
I recall reading in Hebrews 11:14-16 tells us that the OT saints, including Abraham, of whom the promises were made, were desiring a better country than an earthly one, specifically one that is heavenly, and in vs.39-40 we read that these did not receive the promises they hoped to receive because God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
This clearly says that those OT saints receive what we receive from God as our hope and fulfillment of what He has promised. We receive the same thing that is better than an earthly eternity.
In Heb. 11:10, we are told that Abraham was looking for a heavenly city, the New Jerusalem made by the hand of God, not by human hands.
Heb. 12:22-24 in speaking to Hebrew believers says that they have come to the heavenly Jerusalem, inhabited with angels and the church of the firstborn, to God, to spirits made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of the New Covenant,
So, as I read these chapters, I understand that believing Hebrews receive the same destiny as believing Gentiles.
I do not see verses that speak of unbelieving Hebrews receiving an earthly destiny.
Please cite Scriptures that support the dispensational viewpoint you presented here.
In summary: Hebrews highlights Israel's faith and destiny through Christ's work, but from a dispensational lens, those OT saints will inherit their earthly kingdom centered in the New Jerusalem, while the Body of Christ enjoys a distinct heavenly hope revealed only through Paul's gospel. Both share perfection in Christ, but their programs and destinies remain distinct.
Grace and Peace
Pt.2
I ran out of room and wanted to complete my thoughts.
As one who, until coming to this forum, never knew the dispensational way of interpreting the Bible, nor really any other interpretive theory, I find that my interpretations align well with the reformists-Luther, Calvin, and others that followed them even though I have only recently learned the theology they propose.
I am in agreement with most of what is taught by the reformers. But having learned much about dispensational theology and tenets, there is very little that I agree with as to the approach to Scriptures that forms their doctrines.
Even so, I appreciate your contribution and replies to me. I am always thankful when someone tries to give a reason for why they believe a certain way.
But I pray we will continue to walk in the blessing, promise, and hope of all the saints, including Abraham and all who are spoken of in Hebrews 11, because that is all of our inheritance in Christ, which is abundant life, eternal reconciliation with God, the communion of the saints in one body, and the same exact eternal destiny for all who believe.
I must disagree with your analysis on the basis of what Paul teaches in Galatians.
Vs. 3:6-9 affirms that gentiles who believe and are justified through faith, are the children of Abraham and are blessed as Abraham is blessed with the promises and inheritance being possessed by all who believe the gospel as Abraham did. (also vs. 14). vs. 16 states that Jesus is the promised Seed of Abraham and that those who believe in Him receive the promise also (vs.22).
Paul affirms in vs. 26 that believers whether Jews or Gentiles are THE children of Abraham and vs. 28 says that in Christ there is not a distinction between Jew or Gentile, both being brought together as one in Christ ( Eph 2:15) re-affirms this.
And vs. 29 clearly states: and if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If we are to interpret this passage literally and at face value as correct doctrine without overlaying it with dispensational ideas, it clearly says that there is one people of God, believers in Jesus only, and at ALL in Christ receive the promises and inheritance of the covenant made with Abraham by the Godhead. (vs. 17)
Since I do not overlay Scripture with the tenets of dispensationalism, I firmly attest that there are not two peoples of God-Israel and the Church-as this passage clearly teaches; that both Jews and Gentiles are one people in Christ.
I attest that we are not taught in Scripture to keep Israel and the Church distinct from each other, rather that Christ has brought Israel and Gentiles together in His body as the Church-which is the heir of promise made to Sarah while ethnic Israel is not chosen, rather is children of the flesh-of Hagar (4:22-31).
And Paul defines those who are made a new creation in Christ as the true Israel of God (5:15-16).
I realize that those who apply dispensational principles to interpret Scriptures differ greatly from those, like myself, who have never known what dispensationalism teaches.
But the church filled with both Jew and gentile will reign on earth .
But it is not the gentile church they Jews will join but are they not the " natural " who will one day be reheated in? The gentiles being the wild now grafted in?
But in any even both Jew and Gentile come by the same way . For when Adam sinned God gave them a covering but also a promise . Faithful Abel offering eas respected because he followed the pattern God had laid down in the garden and by his offering confessed his sin the righteousness of God and out his faith ( by that lamb) in the promise . So it was to all who came after .till Jesus came fulfilling that promise who wouid bruise the head of the serpent etc .
There was only one way into the presence of God in the Ld Testament there is only one way in the New.
The State of Isreal is another matter and they are not there so established because of their righteousness but because of Gods righteousness . And they will face a lot more including" Jacobs trouble" and the anti Christ before the Lord will save them in a day from all their enemies .
I believe you meant to reference Galatians 6:15-16.
Blessings.
I meant Gal 6:15-16. Thanks for catching that. Was replying while watching little Rosie, the busy little toddler we delight in each day.
Galatians 6:15-16 is a often misunderstood and is easily straightened out if read carefully.
I have mentioned this before. There are two groups mentioned in those two verses.
Here is how it's broken down.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a "NEW CREATURE."
(New creature) That's one of the two. It's the church!
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, (Paul is speaking of the same group, The new creature. THE CHURCH!
Here's the second group.
and upon the Israel of God.
Blessings.
Thanks for your reply.
I have studied Galatians carefully and Paul lays out very pointedly that true believers are Abraham's seed, children, heirs and the true Israel of God. No where does Paul state that ethnic Israel is the inheritor of the promises and covenant made to Abraham. He explicitly states that ethnic Israel is of the bondswoman Hagar and her son Ishmael. Paul is saying that those who are Israelites after the flesh (born as such) ARE NOT part of the blessed seed of Abraham, rather Jesus is the promised Seed and all who believe, including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all OT remnant believers, are, by the fact that we are in Christ, are also the ONLY legitimate seed of Abraham.
In identifying ethnic Israel with Ishmael, Paul is teaching that, except for the elect remnant, Israel is "cast out" as Hagar and Ishmael were.
Galatians 6:15-16 tells us who the Israel of God is-only those who are new creations in Christ. I do not think this verse is speaking of two groups of people, as you state, because this whole epistle is written to show that there is one people of God-the true Israel of God-all who are brought to faith in Jesus, the promised Seed and heir of the covenant promises to Abraham, which are not literal, earthly promises, rather spiritual, heavenly promises of the New Covenant. The literal earthly promises are a "type" pointing to the true "antitype" which are all of the real, actual, spiritual promises believers inherit in Christ by faith.
I know we have conversed on this before, so it seems we have both presented our understanding of Paul's doctrines laid out in Galatians. May the Lord bless all who read what Lbooth, you, and I have written with correct understanding of God's truth given through Paul.
Thanks for responding.
I haven't been able to read through your and Lbooth1955 postings thoroughly, maybe I will this weekend.
I'm not sure I have the context!
I believe you, myself, and Lbooth1955 agree that salvation is by Christ alone throughout all ages! That should have been clear.
As for Galatians 6:15-16 I'm pretty sure you have that wrong!
The context to the Galatians is Paul's defense against the Judaizers
Galatians 6:12-13.
It is not about Jesus being the promised Seed that we find in other passages of scripture.
He's following up on what he told them in the previous chapter.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing..ect ect..
Galatians 5:1-7
Then he continues on in chapter 6:15-16.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a NEW CREATURE.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy,
These are those IN CHRIST!
And then he says
and upon the Israel of God.
"AND UPON" the Israel of God.
This is a separate group.
Israel is never called a new creature!
Gigi even if this did refer to the Church it still doesn't annul the future Abrahamic/Davidic Kingdom promises given which is the context of this topic.
Christ being the promised Seed benefits all ages but it's not the context or topic at hand.
Also, Christ being the promised Seed is not the same thing in meaning as the covenant promises given to Abraham and David and later confirmed to Mary by Gabriel.
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1:32-33"
More perhaps later after I read through the thread.
Blessings.
The dispensations of God are a case in point and while the scruptures clearly teach and speak of them they are not a short cut that unlocks all the scriptures . Sooner or later if 'you' go down that road you will have to twist the scriptures to make them fit and like others defend dispensationalism to the death against all comers .
The " sound doctrines" of Scripture are like the bones of the body . Each has their place and function and working together edify the body and give it strength and stability .
Pt. 2
AS you read the remainder of Rom. 11, you will find that Paul attests to who the true Israel is, that is the one people of God. It is the olive tree (the elect people of God-true Israel) in who are branches both natural (the remnant of ethnic Israel who were of faith), ingrafted Gentiles, and also re-grafted ethnic Israelites who turn from their unbelief to Jesus for salvation) vs. 11-23.
When Paul speaks of all Israel being saved in vs.26-27 he is summing up what he had taught in the previous section, that those who believe the gospel and come to faith in Jesus are members of the olive tree (elect people of God) and Paul states that the covenant God makes with His people is one of salvation from sin, quoting is. 27:9; 59:21.
The promise given to Adam and Eve in the garden of the promised seed and His work has always been about salvation from sin. Noah knew that, Abraham knew that, David knew that, John the Baptist knew that, the apostles knew that including Paul.
Vs. 31-32 speaks of God concluding them all (all of the elect of God's people-Israelite or Gentile) unto unbelief (as the default state of all mankind) so that He might have mercy of all who comprise the Israel of God.
Gerald, I do not know really why you addressed your post to me or really what you were trying to tell me in it. All I could get from it is to beware of using one doctrine to interpret all of Scripture. Please know that I do not do this.
The Scriptures teach many doctrines and we should learn these and consider them when interpreting any portion of Scripture.
Also, the Scriptures do not teach contrary truths. So we should search Scriptures even more if it seems that Scriptural teachings contradict one another.
As to what I posted on Galatians, I also would like to refer to Paul speaking in Romans.
In Rom. 4:11-25 speaks again of Abraham and his fatherhood. Paul clearly says that he is the father of all who have faith as he has whether circumcised or uncircumcised. His faith was in God who would raise the Son from the dead, that is Jesus, (vs. 23) as Abraham was given the gospel during his lifetime and this is why he believed that Isaac could be resurrected after he sacrificed him in obedience to God. He had been shown Jesus and His life, death, and resurrection. ( Jn. 8:56-59).
in Rom. 9 Paul states that not all who are of Israel are truly Israel. Paul sees Israel as a chosen people of God apart from ethnic Israel. (see vs. 8) and He again speaks of those which are of the flesh and those which are of the promise (Isaac) as he did in Galatians. In vs. 23-26, Paul identifies both Jews and gentiles as God chosen children. And in vs. 27, Paul speaks of ethnic Israel that only a remnant will be saved, quoting both Hosea 2::23, 1:10 and Is.10:20-23.
In Romans 10:12 Paul again says that there is no difference between the Jew or Greeks (Gentiles), for Jesus is the same Lord who is rich towards (gives salvation) to all that call upon Him. The promise and blessing of Abraham is a spiritual blessing, being counted as righteous before God, and so it is with all Israel, the promise and covenant is one of salvation and a spiritual dwelling with God.
Rom. 11 speaks about God keeping a remnant from ethnic Israel, all whom He foreknew, having been chosen before creation, according to the election of grace (vs.2-5) See pt. 2
3. The "Better Thing" ( Heb. 11:39-40)
The OT saints did not receive their promises yet. Why? Because resurrection and kingdom blessings await Christ's return (cf. Dan. 12:2; Matt. 19:28). The "better thing for us" refers to the new covenant and Christ's finished work-blessings that must come through Messiah before anyone (Israel or the Body) is made perfect. But dispensationally, Israel's perfection comes in their kingdom ( Acts 3:19-21), while the Church's completion is at the Rapture ( 1 Thess. 4:13-18). Both groups are perfected in Christ, yet their destinies differ.
4. Heavenly Jerusalem ( Heb. 12:22-24)
The "heavenly Jerusalem" is the capital city of Israel's kingdom hope ( Rev. 21:10-12). Hebrews addresses believing Jews who will inherit that city as part of their program. The Body of Christ, however, is said to be "blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places" ( Eph. 1:3), and our conversation/citizenship is "in heaven" ( Phil. 3:20-21)-not tied to Jerusalem.
5. Distinction of Destinies
Israel (believing Hebrews, OT saints): Inherit the land forever, centered in New Jerusalem, under Christ's reign ( Gen. 17:7-8; Isa. 60; Ezek. 37:21-28; Rev. 21:2, 12).
Body of Christ (believing Gentiles and Jews today): Caught up to heaven before the Tribulation, seated with Christ in the heavenlies ( Eph. 2:6-7; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Unbelieving Hebrews: Like any unbelievers, they face judgment and eternal separation ( John 8:24; Rom. 9:6; Heb. 10:26-27). Scripture does not promise them an earthly "second chance" destiny.
Key Scriptures supporting the dispensational distinction
Israel's promises are earthly: Gen. 13:14-15; Jer. 23:5-8; Ezek. 37:21-28.
The Church's hope is heavenly: Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 1:5.
Israel's kingdom is tied to New Jerusalem on earth: Rev. 21:2, 10-12.
OT saints into Israel's kingdom program: Dan. 12:2-3; Matt. 8:11.
next...
Great question-you've hit a passage that at first glance looks like it merges the destinies of Old Testament saints, believing Israel, and the Body of Christ. From a dispensational viewpoint, though, we need to carefully distinguish between God's program for Israel (prophecy, earthly kingdom promises) and His program for the Body of Christ (the mystery, heavenly calling). Let's walk through it step by step.
1. Hebrews and Its Audience
The book of Hebrews is written to Jewish believers, encouraging them not to fall back into Judaism but to press on in faith. Its focus is not the Body of Christ but believing Israel within the prophetic kingdom program (cf. Heb. 2:3-5, the "world to come" spoken by the prophets). This is critical, because it means the promises emphasized there are connected to Israel's hope.
2. Abraham and the Heavenly City ( Heb. 11:10, 14-16)
Dispensationalists agree Abraham looked beyond earthly Canaan. He expected resurrection and a perfected kingdom under God's reign (cf. Heb. 11:17-19). But note: the "heavenly city" in Hebrews is not the same as the Church's destiny "in the heavenlies" ( Eph. 1:3; Phil. 3:20). Revelation 21-22 shows the New Jerusalem descending to earth to be the center of Israel's eternal inheritance. It is "heavenly" in origin and quality, but it comes down to earth ( Rev. 21:2). Thus, Abraham's hope remains tied to the earth through Israel's covenants, not to the Church's mystery program.
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