Is God an "angry God" (when we are away from Him)?
Acts 15:3, "And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion (the grk says "returning") of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren."
Acts 9:35, "And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned (the grk says returned") to the Lord."
In both verses above we read about gentiles returning to the Lord.
But let's read the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-12.
Some points we can point out in this story.
Was the father of that kid angry after his son left the house? Answer: No he wasn't. He was actually very sad. His heart was broken and his mind was always in his son. "Where is he? How is he doing? Is he ok?". How do we know all this?
In v 20 it says, "And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."
How was it possible for the father to see his kid when he was a great way off? Not accidently. But because he was standing every day at a high place in his house (upper floor?) expecting to see his child coming back. This shows the agony (not anger) that that father had for his kid to come back home safe.
"... and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.". "Kissed" is not a very precise translation of the grk in this verse. The grk means kissing him all around again and again. The father couldn't keep his hands off his son. He kept hugging and kissing him. So the same question again. Was he an angry father while waiting for his son's return?
We must understand our Father's heart when we are away from Him and the agony He is going through until we finally return to Him. This is our Father in Heaven. He is Love.
But let us change the ending of that story. Let's assume that his son never came back home an died in his sins. Then and only then God pauses being a dear Father and becomes a righteous Judge.
"For the most High hateth sinners, and will repay vengeance unto the ungodly, and keepeth them against the mighty day of their punishment."
Matthew 23:2-3
"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Psalm 7:11 says that God is a righteous judge and angry at the wicked every day. But He does rejoice whenever a person turns to Him.
In the case of the prodigal, I believe that He was an "elect son" as being part of the Father's household, as it would be if a believer turned from God for a time and then returned back to the Lord, as this son did with his father.
But, yes, Scripture does say that God is angry with the wicked all the time. But at the same time, He does provide rain for the wicked and the good.
For us who believe, I think it is hard for us to understand how God can be both of these ways at once because WE find it difficult to be that way.
God's Being is so very different that our being. He is always all of His attributes at once, not one day angry and another day loving because He is not bound by time in His essential nature. He does act within time and creation, but these do not change His nature in any way.
We live in a time and society that does not want to face the fact of God being just in His anger and wrath towards sinners. But it is the truth because sin is a very serious offense against Him and why He made hell and the lake of fire for judgement for the wicked angels and unsaved humans. It is a severe judgment for severe offense. It is a good thing to believe this and consider the holiness of God in light of our corruption by sin. When we understand this more clearly we will count ourselves as sinners and wretched ones at that and realize all the more how desperately we need His mercy and grace. We are worthless in our sinful state and have nothing acceptable to offer God and no way to bridge that enormous gulf between sinners and God.
There is need in our churches and in our conversations with others for declaring this sad and unsettling truth about God and our wickedness. When this teaching is neglected, the church becomes full of weak-minded, halfhearted, and fair-weather Christians who are at risk of being drawn away
So God's wrath always refers to the Judgement Day when the wicked will be sent to the eternal hell.
People are not attracted to God because they fear Him. Remember the Pharaoh? Every time something bad happened to the Egyptians he repented and asked for mercy. Afterwards, there he goes again. Nobody stays near God because of fear. They will certainly go away some time later on if they keep fearing Him. Only when one realizes how much love God has for people and what He has done for them, then they approach Him and love Him back. One can not love a God whom they fear. Fear is always fear.
As I said in one of my previous posts we should warn people of what will happen if they never repent. We should point out very seriously about the eternal hell. A horrible etrnity. People will have to spend the eternity away from God from whom all good things come, like joy, love, peace, light, etc. And that away from Him non of these will be provided, nomatter whether the lake of fire is something litteral or figurative (here opinions differ). GBU
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
Seems to agree with the OT verse I gave you. God does not change. But He does work according to His own pleasure, will, and purpose in the OT, NT, and in the time from the ascension through the end of times.
Here are other relevant verses from the NT that speak of the wrath of God being upon the wicked. I think this is present tense from an English perspective, but the Greek may be different.
I think that God is always the same in every way. He is true to His attributes in the OT as well as the NT. And will continue to be true to Himself in this age.
Giannis, I stand by what I have shared with you because I believe that Scriptures teach that God both hates wicked sinners and also desires that many will turn to Him and be saved, but not all will do so because not all have been elected to salvation since before creation.
Ephesians 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:5-6
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
How is it possible for God to hate sinners at the same time He asks us to love them? Those two are opposite to one another, aren't they?'
God hates sin (the act) but He loves sinners (the people) and wishes all of them to be saved, that is why He gave His son. Nobody gives a son for sacrifice for people they hate.
Firstly we have to understand what is meant in scripture with "the wrath of God". It mainly means the righteous Judgement of God. But we have to remember dear GiGi that we are living in the age of grace. Jesus said it clearly, "I have not come to judge (condemn/punish) people but to save them." Since Jesus' resurrection God's grace is available to all people. Of course not everybody is going to ask for it and be saved but still it is available to everybody who wish for it. God's wrath can not be revealed during the time of grace, which for all people is the time of their life. After their death then yes they will be judged and condemned for what they have or have not done. But while one is still alive they are under that grace, not under wrath.
The verses you mentioned are to be seen during the final Judgement, not during our lives.
Now about us been selected by God, my belief is that we have been selected by God just because He knows beforehand that we are going to accept Him, not because of any other unknown reason. This is one of the things I am definite and absolutely sure about.
Do not be confused with the OT. In the OT there was no forgiveness, although God sometimes showed His true character and forgave some people like King David. Remember the man that selected wood on Sabbath? Remember that boy that talked bad to his parents?. God's Judgement fall immediately upon them without even given them the right to repent. This is what wrath is. But we are living (thanks God) in another age, in the age when God is mercyful to sinners and gives them all the time needed to repent, so that nobody will find an excuse during the final Judgement
I've been reading this thread with interest, Giannis & GiGi. And I can certainly understand & appreciate both points of view, with their slight differences. The thought that comes to me is, if God is indeed so loving & merciful to all (post-Cross), waiting for all to come to repentance, then is it right for Him to consign all who don't believe in Him or even reject Him, to a fiery eternal hell?
I know some Christians get past this quandary by believing that there is no such thing as an eternal hell, but that those who do not believe, simply go into the grave & disappear (that this their judgement for unbelief); that if we are born into sin (i.e. receiving the sin nature was not of our choosing), then surely God cannot condemn us for our sin, but simply let us disappear into the ether. This understanding, though I believe is very wrong & unscriptural, does allow for an all-loving God to continue to show His Love in such a manner by not allowing them to share in His eternity in His Kingdom, yet not suffer so horribly in hell.
But the fact remains, that such a God does truly consign all those not found in Christ, to be sent to an eternal hell (created for the devil & his angels). How are we supposed to understand such a God? Does He switch emotions between those who still have breath in their bodies to those who have breathed their last? Or, is this one of those mysterious things about God (& there are many - see how the Trinity doctrine has divided believers) - and such mysteries are best left as such. If Ananias & Sapphira ( Acts 5) could be instantly judged for their sin (which many today would believe as minor), or those coming to the Lord's Table in an unworthy manner ( 1 Corinthians 11) would suffer sickness or death in quick judgement, then somehow we must be able to reconcile how such a loving God would pronounce such harsh judgement (life's cessation, not hell) to those Whom He loves & receives unto Himself? His Anger is still evident even now.
So you see why we have no other chance to repent after death. The trial has ended, the penalty was announced, and the sinner has not accepted the change of position which Jesus proposed to him, hence he is sent to prison(hell) himself. It is not a matter of changing mood or feelings for God. He has done everything He could do from His side and now His righteouness has to be fulfilled. In either cases (if one accepts Christ or not) His righteouness has to be fulfilled, either in Jesus face' or in the accused person's face.
And since we have free will God expects us to make our choise. Here we must always point out that God respects our free will to make choises very much. He tries to make us change our mind but he never forces us. We are free to choose, God or Hell.
And finally something else.
God Himself placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Paradise. Why? Because everybody has to make their choise. But for one to make a choise they have to be given choises, more than one. If there is only one thing to do then there can not be a choise, they are complelled to do the only thing that can be done. That is why God doesn't appear to the world. If He did show Himself then everybody would kneel infront of Him, forced to do so, no matter if they liked it or not No choise. So with God seemingly absent all people have a choise. Brilliant, isn't it?. God's infinite wisdom in work. But this is another topic.
About Ananias and Sapphira or the blashemy of the Holy Spirit (and later on the mark of the beast), I believe that people who do these will never repent so God doesn't have to longsuffer them. And so they are judged immediately. Probably this is the reason that devils are not given the chance to repent and can not be saved. But for all that I have not come to a definite conclusion, they are under consideration in my mind.
I believe Chris I have made clear my beliefs although I have not answered to your questions directly.
Thank you bro Giannis for your reply. And as you wrote under 'Christian Theology', I do agree with all that you have written there. If we get to the root of the matter, I still think that we agree that God does indeed love all people, but as the Just Judge has to execute His penalty to all those who reject that offer of Love.
If I might quote what Gigi had written earlier, "For us who believe, I think it is hard for us to understand how God can be both of these ways at once because WE find it difficult to be that way. God's Being is so very different from that of our being. He is always all of His attributes at once, not one day angry and another day loving because He is not bound by time in His essential nature." I think she has stated it very well, that God's Essence is both one of great love & mercy and yet also to be angered by sin & those who commit it. I think you agree to this also.
So maybe it is the type of anger that God displays that you take umbrage to. I don't see a God on His Throne continually fuming or throwing a fit about sin or when someone sins. God's Anger is simply part of His Holy Being that is constantly evident as does His Love & Mercy for all. If I say, that He is an Angry God, I would never deny His continual Mercy upon all, but I would never deny that His Anger is still evident whenever it needs to be revealed. And we have quoted references earlier of how that Anger was shown to both the saved and unsaved. If it was only Anger that is seen, how then would that great Plan of Salvation ever come into being or even work? It simply couldn't; God would then have rightly consigned every one of us to Hell, as our just deserts. This would be an angry God without any Love or Mercy.
So, I won't keep this going as I believe that we're understanding the same things about God's Anger as that directed to sin and the sinner who rejects His Love; not of One overpowered by anger, but evident even as His Mercy is unto all who call upon Him.
He could had sent an angel instead of coming down here Himself. But it is not love to find someone who has no relationship with the whole thing and sent them to earth to be tortured and die. So He made that journey Himself.
And now everyone who accepts Jesus, in God's eyes they are righteous since their sins were and are erased through Jesus' Blood. And since that partition of sin between God and man is eliminated God can now live together with men in Heaven.
All that is known, I am writting a summary to point out some things
So on the cross God fulfilled both His wish to save people (His need for love) and His need for righteouness.
Having all that in mind we can now understand why God had chosen this way of salvation but we also unsderstand some things about his character. God does not hate men. But He does hate sinning. Yes He is often angry with us but he is also longsuffering us. And especially in the age we are living His grace is available to all people, if only one asks for it
So brother the whole thing has nothing to do with changing emotions. God's grace is available as long as one lives. After that, Judgment has to occur. The chance to choose salvation was given and if rejected that person has to pay the penalty.
Let me use an example I always use when I have to explain to unbelievers why faith in Jesus saves them.
Suppose one is sent to the court for something he has done. At the end of the trial the Judge finds him guilty. And he announces the penalty. Suppose it is some years in jail. Just after the Judge announces the penalty, a man sitting in the crowd that attends the trial shouts to the Judge. "Dear Judge if you and the accused person accept my proposal, I would like to take his position and be sent to the prison instead oh him". The Judge(God) says that he accepts this proposal. Now the accused person has to accept it as well. If he does accept it then he is freed, if he doesn't then he has to be sent to prison himself.
OK brother let's put some things in the proper order.
Firstly as I said to GiGi, and it is very important to have in mind, that God hates sin (the act of sinning) but loves sinners (the people).
But let's go then to the basis of the Christian Theology.
God is Love. But He is also Righteousness, and He is also Truth. These are some (probably the main) of the characteristics of His character, His nature. Which means that God has to fulfill His necessity for Love, for righteouness, and for Truth. He can not override one of these in the expense of the other. Which means that as a righteous Judge He MUST condemn the sinner. And as we know the penalty of sin is death, both physically(grave) and spiritually(hell). But He also loves people. He made us with His own hands and breathed into us His Spirit. He made with the aim to share His world with us.
We know that all people inherited the sinful nature from our ancestors. Which means that we can not help doing sins. We do sins and we can not do anything about it. Paul deals with it extensively in Rom 5-8.
So God "faced" a problem. On one hand there was the man He loves and wants to save and have them together with Him in Heaven and on the other hand there was the man who sins and must be condemned. Always bear in mind that God must fulfill both His need for love and righteouness. But God can not live with sin, He cannot live with sinners, it is against His righteouness, His nature.
So, there He faced a big problem. How did God solve this problem? Simply in His infinite wisdom He found the only solution available. He became a man, without sin, and as a sinless person who had no debt of His own (because if one has a dept of his own which they can not pay, obviously they could never pay the debt of others) He could represent mankind on the cross. Which means that He paid the penalty of sins for all people of all ages. And in Jesus' face God's necessity for righteouness was fulfilled.
I agree with all you've said in this post with the exception of the idea that God has ever had a problem in and of Himself. The problem of sin is always the problem of the sinner, not God's problem. He never faces a dilemma nor does He need to come up with any plan other than what He decreed in eternity past in the Everlasting Covenant. God is always in control of all that happens and all that is. He has ordained all things from before creation and therefore, nothing can be a problem for Him. He did not have to create any beings, nor create them so that they would be able to sin, and would indeed do so. He created angels and humans knowing they will sin because it was His plan for them to do so in order for Him to redeem those He chose to save to the praise of His glorious grace. Romans 11:32 and Ephesians 1:6-8.
One has to discriminate the OT from the NT. Many things in the OT are not valid in NT, eg in Psalms King David always asks God to take revenge against his enemies, which is something we should not do in NT, we must love our enemies.
Yes God is angry and dissapointed with the man He created. But when we talk about God's wrath we mean God distructing people not just the feeling of being angry.
So lets have a look in NT.
Jesus said in John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
When the disciples asked Jesus if He wants them to bring fire from Heaven to burn the Samaritans since they didn't accept them Jesus said, "... But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.". Luke 8:54-55. Not to mention the case with that woman condemned for fornication whom Jesus let her free
We live in the age of grace. We must distinguish the spirit of the OT which was condemnation/punishment from the spirit of the NT wich is grace/mercy. We are "of another manner of spirit" in this age. So God is.
Doesn't it seem strange to you that God asks us to love our enemies while He is angry with them? Or is He not angry? He actually loves His enemies, that is why we become God's true children by also loving our enemies "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:..." How de we really become God's true children? By being in "His likeness".
The will of God is all people to be saved, If you search the word 'wrath" in NT you will find it always refers to the Judgement Day. Only in the OT and in Rev we can find it in this life. And to me this is another point that grace will not be available after the rapture of the church. People will have to be slaughtered to be saved. The grace will go together with the church and another age will start. I will not use the word dispensation since I am against that idea, but still the grace will be gone at that time
Acts 15:3, "And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion (the grk says "returning") of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren."
Acts 9:35, "And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned (the grk says returned") to the Lord."
In both verses above we read about gentiles returning to the Lord.
But let's read the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-12.
Some points we can point out in this story.
Was the father of that kid angry after his son left the house? Answer: No he wasn't. He was actually very sad. His heart was broken and his mind was always in his son. "Where is he? How is he doing? Is he ok?". How do we know all this?
In v 20 it says, "And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."
How was it possible for the father to see his kid when he was a great way off? Not accidently. But because he was standing every day at a high place in his house (upper floor?) expecting to see his child coming back. This shows the agony (not anger) that that father had for his kid to come back home safe.
"... and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.". "Kissed" is not a very precise translation of the grk in this verse. The grk means kissing him all around again and again. The father couldn't keep his hands off his son. He kept hugging and kissing him. So the same question again. Was he an angry father while waiting for his son's return?
We must understand our Father's heart when we are away from Him and the agony He is going through until we finally return to Him. This is our Father in Heaven. He is Love.
But let us change the ending of that story. Let's assume that his son never came back home an died in his sins. Then and only then God pauses being a dear Father and becomes a righteous Judge.
Ecclesiasticus 12:6
"For the most High hateth sinners, and will repay vengeance unto the ungodly, and keepeth them against the mighty day of their punishment."
Matthew 23:2-3
"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Psalm 7:11 says that God is a righteous judge and angry at the wicked every day. But He does rejoice whenever a person turns to Him.
In the case of the prodigal, I believe that He was an "elect son" as being part of the Father's household, as it would be if a believer turned from God for a time and then returned back to the Lord, as this son did with his father.
But, yes, Scripture does say that God is angry with the wicked all the time. But at the same time, He does provide rain for the wicked and the good.
For us who believe, I think it is hard for us to understand how God can be both of these ways at once because WE find it difficult to be that way.
God's Being is so very different that our being. He is always all of His attributes at once, not one day angry and another day loving because He is not bound by time in His essential nature. He does act within time and creation, but these do not change His nature in any way.
We live in a time and society that does not want to face the fact of God being just in His anger and wrath towards sinners. But it is the truth because sin is a very serious offense against Him and why He made hell and the lake of fire for judgement for the wicked angels and unsaved humans. It is a severe judgment for severe offense. It is a good thing to believe this and consider the holiness of God in light of our corruption by sin. When we understand this more clearly we will count ourselves as sinners and wretched ones at that and realize all the more how desperately we need His mercy and grace. We are worthless in our sinful state and have nothing acceptable to offer God and no way to bridge that enormous gulf between sinners and God.
There is need in our churches and in our conversations with others for declaring this sad and unsettling truth about God and our wickedness. When this teaching is neglected, the church becomes full of weak-minded, halfhearted, and fair-weather Christians who are at risk of being drawn away
So God's wrath always refers to the Judgement Day when the wicked will be sent to the eternal hell.
People are not attracted to God because they fear Him. Remember the Pharaoh? Every time something bad happened to the Egyptians he repented and asked for mercy. Afterwards, there he goes again. Nobody stays near God because of fear. They will certainly go away some time later on if they keep fearing Him. Only when one realizes how much love God has for people and what He has done for them, then they approach Him and love Him back. One can not love a God whom they fear. Fear is always fear.
As I said in one of my previous posts we should warn people of what will happen if they never repent. We should point out very seriously about the eternal hell. A horrible etrnity. People will have to spend the eternity away from God from whom all good things come, like joy, love, peace, light, etc. And that away from Him non of these will be provided, nomatter whether the lake of fire is something litteral or figurative (here opinions differ). GBU
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
Seems to agree with the OT verse I gave you. God does not change. But He does work according to His own pleasure, will, and purpose in the OT, NT, and in the time from the ascension through the end of times.
Here are other relevant verses from the NT that speak of the wrath of God being upon the wicked. I think this is present tense from an English perspective, but the Greek may be different.
I think that God is always the same in every way. He is true to His attributes in the OT as well as the NT. And will continue to be true to Himself in this age.
Giannis, I stand by what I have shared with you because I believe that Scriptures teach that God both hates wicked sinners and also desires that many will turn to Him and be saved, but not all will do so because not all have been elected to salvation since before creation.
Ephesians 5:5-6
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Colossians 3:5-6
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
How is it possible for God to hate sinners at the same time He asks us to love them? Those two are opposite to one another, aren't they?'
God hates sin (the act) but He loves sinners (the people) and wishes all of them to be saved, that is why He gave His son. Nobody gives a son for sacrifice for people they hate.
Firstly we have to understand what is meant in scripture with "the wrath of God". It mainly means the righteous Judgement of God. But we have to remember dear GiGi that we are living in the age of grace. Jesus said it clearly, "I have not come to judge (condemn/punish) people but to save them." Since Jesus' resurrection God's grace is available to all people. Of course not everybody is going to ask for it and be saved but still it is available to everybody who wish for it. God's wrath can not be revealed during the time of grace, which for all people is the time of their life. After their death then yes they will be judged and condemned for what they have or have not done. But while one is still alive they are under that grace, not under wrath.
The verses you mentioned are to be seen during the final Judgement, not during our lives.
Now about us been selected by God, my belief is that we have been selected by God just because He knows beforehand that we are going to accept Him, not because of any other unknown reason. This is one of the things I am definite and absolutely sure about.
Do not be confused with the OT. In the OT there was no forgiveness, although God sometimes showed His true character and forgave some people like King David. Remember the man that selected wood on Sabbath? Remember that boy that talked bad to his parents?. God's Judgement fall immediately upon them without even given them the right to repent. This is what wrath is. But we are living (thanks God) in another age, in the age when God is mercyful to sinners and gives them all the time needed to repent, so that nobody will find an excuse during the final Judgement
GBU
I know some Christians get past this quandary by believing that there is no such thing as an eternal hell, but that those who do not believe, simply go into the grave & disappear (that this their judgement for unbelief); that if we are born into sin (i.e. receiving the sin nature was not of our choosing), then surely God cannot condemn us for our sin, but simply let us disappear into the ether. This understanding, though I believe is very wrong & unscriptural, does allow for an all-loving God to continue to show His Love in such a manner by not allowing them to share in His eternity in His Kingdom, yet not suffer so horribly in hell.
But the fact remains, that such a God does truly consign all those not found in Christ, to be sent to an eternal hell (created for the devil & his angels). How are we supposed to understand such a God? Does He switch emotions between those who still have breath in their bodies to those who have breathed their last? Or, is this one of those mysterious things about God (& there are many - see how the Trinity doctrine has divided believers) - and such mysteries are best left as such. If Ananias & Sapphira ( Acts 5) could be instantly judged for their sin (which many today would believe as minor), or those coming to the Lord's Table in an unworthy manner ( 1 Corinthians 11) would suffer sickness or death in quick judgement, then somehow we must be able to reconcile how such a loving God would pronounce such harsh judgement (life's cessation, not hell) to those Whom He loves & receives unto Himself? His Anger is still evident even now.
So you see why we have no other chance to repent after death. The trial has ended, the penalty was announced, and the sinner has not accepted the change of position which Jesus proposed to him, hence he is sent to prison(hell) himself. It is not a matter of changing mood or feelings for God. He has done everything He could do from His side and now His righteouness has to be fulfilled. In either cases (if one accepts Christ or not) His righteouness has to be fulfilled, either in Jesus face' or in the accused person's face.
And since we have free will God expects us to make our choise. Here we must always point out that God respects our free will to make choises very much. He tries to make us change our mind but he never forces us. We are free to choose, God or Hell.
And finally something else.
God Himself placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Paradise. Why? Because everybody has to make their choise. But for one to make a choise they have to be given choises, more than one. If there is only one thing to do then there can not be a choise, they are complelled to do the only thing that can be done. That is why God doesn't appear to the world. If He did show Himself then everybody would kneel infront of Him, forced to do so, no matter if they liked it or not No choise. So with God seemingly absent all people have a choise. Brilliant, isn't it?. God's infinite wisdom in work. But this is another topic.
About Ananias and Sapphira or the blashemy of the Holy Spirit (and later on the mark of the beast), I believe that people who do these will never repent so God doesn't have to longsuffer them. And so they are judged immediately. Probably this is the reason that devils are not given the chance to repent and can not be saved. But for all that I have not come to a definite conclusion, they are under consideration in my mind.
I believe Chris I have made clear my beliefs although I have not answered to your questions directly.
Blessings.
If I might quote what Gigi had written earlier, "For us who believe, I think it is hard for us to understand how God can be both of these ways at once because WE find it difficult to be that way. God's Being is so very different from that of our being. He is always all of His attributes at once, not one day angry and another day loving because He is not bound by time in His essential nature." I think she has stated it very well, that God's Essence is both one of great love & mercy and yet also to be angered by sin & those who commit it. I think you agree to this also.
So maybe it is the type of anger that God displays that you take umbrage to. I don't see a God on His Throne continually fuming or throwing a fit about sin or when someone sins. God's Anger is simply part of His Holy Being that is constantly evident as does His Love & Mercy for all. If I say, that He is an Angry God, I would never deny His continual Mercy upon all, but I would never deny that His Anger is still evident whenever it needs to be revealed. And we have quoted references earlier of how that Anger was shown to both the saved and unsaved. If it was only Anger that is seen, how then would that great Plan of Salvation ever come into being or even work? It simply couldn't; God would then have rightly consigned every one of us to Hell, as our just deserts. This would be an angry God without any Love or Mercy.
So, I won't keep this going as I believe that we're understanding the same things about God's Anger as that directed to sin and the sinner who rejects His Love; not of One overpowered by anger, but evident even as His Mercy is unto all who call upon Him.
He could had sent an angel instead of coming down here Himself. But it is not love to find someone who has no relationship with the whole thing and sent them to earth to be tortured and die. So He made that journey Himself.
And now everyone who accepts Jesus, in God's eyes they are righteous since their sins were and are erased through Jesus' Blood. And since that partition of sin between God and man is eliminated God can now live together with men in Heaven.
All that is known, I am writting a summary to point out some things
So on the cross God fulfilled both His wish to save people (His need for love) and His need for righteouness.
Having all that in mind we can now understand why God had chosen this way of salvation but we also unsderstand some things about his character. God does not hate men. But He does hate sinning. Yes He is often angry with us but he is also longsuffering us. And especially in the age we are living His grace is available to all people, if only one asks for it
So brother the whole thing has nothing to do with changing emotions. God's grace is available as long as one lives. After that, Judgment has to occur. The chance to choose salvation was given and if rejected that person has to pay the penalty.
Let me use an example I always use when I have to explain to unbelievers why faith in Jesus saves them.
Suppose one is sent to the court for something he has done. At the end of the trial the Judge finds him guilty. And he announces the penalty. Suppose it is some years in jail. Just after the Judge announces the penalty, a man sitting in the crowd that attends the trial shouts to the Judge. "Dear Judge if you and the accused person accept my proposal, I would like to take his position and be sent to the prison instead oh him". The Judge(God) says that he accepts this proposal. Now the accused person has to accept it as well. If he does accept it then he is freed, if he doesn't then he has to be sent to prison himself.
... see pt 3
OK brother let's put some things in the proper order.
Firstly as I said to GiGi, and it is very important to have in mind, that God hates sin (the act of sinning) but loves sinners (the people).
But let's go then to the basis of the Christian Theology.
God is Love. But He is also Righteousness, and He is also Truth. These are some (probably the main) of the characteristics of His character, His nature. Which means that God has to fulfill His necessity for Love, for righteouness, and for Truth. He can not override one of these in the expense of the other. Which means that as a righteous Judge He MUST condemn the sinner. And as we know the penalty of sin is death, both physically(grave) and spiritually(hell). But He also loves people. He made us with His own hands and breathed into us His Spirit. He made with the aim to share His world with us.
We know that all people inherited the sinful nature from our ancestors. Which means that we can not help doing sins. We do sins and we can not do anything about it. Paul deals with it extensively in Rom 5-8.
So God "faced" a problem. On one hand there was the man He loves and wants to save and have them together with Him in Heaven and on the other hand there was the man who sins and must be condemned. Always bear in mind that God must fulfill both His need for love and righteouness. But God can not live with sin, He cannot live with sinners, it is against His righteouness, His nature.
So, there He faced a big problem. How did God solve this problem? Simply in His infinite wisdom He found the only solution available. He became a man, without sin, and as a sinless person who had no debt of His own (because if one has a dept of his own which they can not pay, obviously they could never pay the debt of others) He could represent mankind on the cross. Which means that He paid the penalty of sins for all people of all ages. And in Jesus' face God's necessity for righteouness was fulfilled.
...see pt 2
I agree with all you've said in this post with the exception of the idea that God has ever had a problem in and of Himself. The problem of sin is always the problem of the sinner, not God's problem. He never faces a dilemma nor does He need to come up with any plan other than what He decreed in eternity past in the Everlasting Covenant. God is always in control of all that happens and all that is. He has ordained all things from before creation and therefore, nothing can be a problem for Him. He did not have to create any beings, nor create them so that they would be able to sin, and would indeed do so. He created angels and humans knowing they will sin because it was His plan for them to do so in order for Him to redeem those He chose to save to the praise of His glorious grace. Romans 11:32 and Ephesians 1:6-8.
Thanks for sharing your point of view.
I think we can exit this discussion as we have both presented our view well and are at an impasse.
One has to discriminate the OT from the NT. Many things in the OT are not valid in NT, eg in Psalms King David always asks God to take revenge against his enemies, which is something we should not do in NT, we must love our enemies.
Yes God is angry and dissapointed with the man He created. But when we talk about God's wrath we mean God distructing people not just the feeling of being angry.
So lets have a look in NT.
Jesus said in John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
When the disciples asked Jesus if He wants them to bring fire from Heaven to burn the Samaritans since they didn't accept them Jesus said, "... But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.". Luke 8:54-55. Not to mention the case with that woman condemned for fornication whom Jesus let her free
We live in the age of grace. We must distinguish the spirit of the OT which was condemnation/punishment from the spirit of the NT wich is grace/mercy. We are "of another manner of spirit" in this age. So God is.
Doesn't it seem strange to you that God asks us to love our enemies while He is angry with them? Or is He not angry? He actually loves His enemies, that is why we become God's true children by also loving our enemies "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:..." How de we really become God's true children? By being in "His likeness".
The will of God is all people to be saved, If you search the word 'wrath" in NT you will find it always refers to the Judgement Day. Only in the OT and in Rev we can find it in this life. And to me this is another point that grace will not be available after the rapture of the church. People will have to be slaughtered to be saved. The grace will go together with the church and another age will start. I will not use the word dispensation since I am against that idea, but still the grace will be gone at that time
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