I have never seen a vision. But my wife has seen a few.
In one of those visions she was standing infront of God's throne to be judged for her life. It was not her turn yet. Before her another person was judged. Both, my wife and that other person, had a paper in their hands written on it all the sins and wrong doings of their lives. That other person was a person known to my wife. As that other person, a woman also, was judged my wife was thinking of that other person "she has done this and that, and that ...". Any time my wife thought that that other woman did this wrong thing the same accusation was appearing on her paper too. So she thought it was better for her not to think of what wrong that other woman had done so that the same accusation wouldn't appear on her paper too.
Conclusion. God will be strict to us if we are srtict to our people. God will be merciful if we are merciful to others.
Romans 2:1-4
"1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"
Don't we all do more or less the same sins? So why do we judge our brothers for the same things we also do?
And if we don't do the same sins still we are not allowed to judge others. Because without God's grace we are all sinners. Maybe more, maybe less, but still sinners. And since we are all saved through God's grace there is nothing to boast about ourselves comparing ourselves to our brothers. Remember the Pharisee and the publican.
Brother Giannis. Thank you for reminding us about our often quick judgement of others, when we need to first look at ourselves & take stock of our own sins & inadequacies before condemning others in theirs.
However, I would seek your impressions or understanding of the passage you quoted ( Romans 2:1-4) and also 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. I believe the latter one commands the Church to judge anyone who is "called a brother" & deal with him for his sins, by separation from him and excommunication. Yet, Romans 2:1-4 seems to denounce any judgement, knowing that the same sins are committed and we all stand under God's Judgement.
So, the problem I see here is, to whom is the apostle referring to in Romans? In chapter 1, he clearly is referring to the unsaved Gentiles ( Romans 1:18-32), showing their idolatry, lusts, & many sins. But when the apostle continues on in chapter 2, it now seems that the unsaved Jew is being spoken of, as those who are now hypocrites, judging others when their own sins are exposed. His use of "O Man, whosoever thou art that judgest" (v1) and "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law" (v17), indicates that Paul is now speaking to/about the unsaved Jew, who are no different to the Gentile, in their hypocrisy & unjust judgement.
The point I'm making here is, given those Scripture portions for consideration, I wonder what the limitations of the Church or even an individual believer are in this matter of judgement. Clearly, the elders have to continually make judgements against others (whether they choose to do so by identifying them, counseling, warning, or expulsion), and we too as individual believers need to recognize sinning wayward congregants, therefore making some type of judgement against them (whether done internally in our hearts or not). Maybe judgement is allowed after all, yet it must always be a 'righteous judgement', without hypocrisy & knowing that we still have to answer to the Lord for our thoughts, words & actions.
Can we help God do what He wants to do with our brothers? Let us help by praying for them. But what we often do is to spoil what God wishes to do by condemning our brothers and cause problems in the church.
Now from my experience in life I found out that if I can not bear what a brother has done and if I see that a dislike is created in my heart for that brother then it is better to close my eyes and see nothing. Firstly I must protect my own soul.
Finally I will tell you a real story which helps to see how God sees us, His children.
A sister suffered a type of cancer in her spinal cord or something like that. During a night on her bed in hospital she was suffering a lot. So she prayed to God to make the pain at least less painful than it was. And she heard inside her God's voice that told her, "I feel the same pain everytime I hear you gossiping and judging your brothers and sistrers". Obviously that sister was doing the wrong thing and God taught her a lesson. This is a real story Chris, it is not a tale, I heard it from that sister personally. For yor information she was finally cured after having some surgeries and a medical cure from a type of cancer that is almost 100% deadly.
I don't know if I have answered your questions brother. This how I see it. Let God correct me if I am wrong. Blessings.
Thanks brother Giannis for your reply. I did appreciate the way you understand this matter of judgement, i.e. with a view to help a wayward brother to face up to his problem & to guide him with real care & affection. As Jesus spoke in Matthew 18:15: "if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother." If one has sinned against me, judging & rejecting him would achieve very little for the Kingdom of God (and even then my judgement of him may well be in error). Rather, if the matter is brought up to him & he is prepared to listen & resolve it, then truly I have gained my brother. But all this has to be done as a first step: for our mutual healing & restoration in the family of God.
Yet, even before all this takes place, our own heart's first response is critical. Do we get agitated & stew over such an offence committed and then simmer down only after the Spirit deals with our uncalled-for response; or rather, the mature believer immediately knows what turmoil is ready to arise in the heart, and rather than be tempted to judge, he quickly deals with it lest it becomes sin? This maybe easy to discern but certainly not easy to deal with. As the Holy Spirit takes control more & more of our lives, dealing with our weaknesses & failings, I think our thinking & attitudes will align much more closely to what God requires of our behavior. And this will express itself in our thinking, our speech & a true loving response to the one offending. Thanks again brother for these necessary reminders and that we ought to judge ourselves first in all things. Blessings.
So you see brother that the intention is to help my brother repent and correct himself, and not to condemn him.
Lets read Matthew 18:15-18. It is when my brother sins to me. In all three cases the outcome we wish to get is not to punish my brother, but to make him repent and so to "..., thou hast gained thy brother.". To gain him. Everything has to be done with love not with any other intention. The outcome must be to "gain my brother.". But if I Judge/condemn my brother things change. Even in the case when a fornication occured in Corinth Paul suggests that that man had to be expelled from the church as a last means to make him repent 1 Cor 5:5, "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.".
Of course here we are dealing with serious sins, not just a lie or something similar. 1 Cor 11, "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.". We must always give the chance and the appropriate time for our brothers to repent but if they never do then we must expell them from the church, for them to repent , and for the rest to be protected.
But this is something to be done only by the elders or the pastor. Nobody else has the right to intervene in such matters apart from informing the hierarchy of the church.
Lately I have started seeing all those things under a different prism. Who saved us? Who brought us in a church? Who is making a huge effort to correct us, to change us? Isn't it God himself? Is it us that we have saved our brothers? Is it us that we have planted them in the church? Is it us that we are going to change them? Obviously not. This is God's task. So our focus must be in ourselves not in what the other person is doing or not doing. We are here to correct ourselves, not the others.
Really it is a complicated topic. The following is my opinion.
If we read Matthew 7:1-5 where it speaks about judging our brothers, the point of what Jesus is saying is not about discerning our brother's actions. The wrong doings of others are obvious to everybody. But there are two ways in seeing those actions. Either we judge them which means we condemn them for what they had done. Or we still see those sins but with a mood to help, not to condemn. We can cry and pray to God to help them. This is the right attitude I believe. It is the attitude of love.
As we grow spiritually and God walks us through various events in our life we get more tolerant to our brothers. Once when I was young in faith I cought a deacon saying a lie. So I condemned him in my heart, "a deacon saying a lie?" it was too much for me at that time. Later on I found myself in a condition that I was sort of compelled to lie. That tought me a lesson. Do not judge strictly your brother if you don't know what he goes through. In his shoes you might had done something worse than what he had done. When we are strict judges of our brothers God always passes us through the same path that our brother went through, so for us to understand how it feels and also to see how we behave ourselves under the same conditions. Then and only then we can realize the trials that our brothers are going through and be more tolerant to them.
Didn't Jesus know what Judas the Iscariot was doing all the time, that he was stealing money? Yes He did. So why didn't He send him away or reveal to others what he was doing? Because He was giving him the chance to repent. And He made clear to Judas that He knew what Judas was going to do and gave him all the time to repent, although He knew the outcome. Jesus did everything from His side to make Judas repent. He even called him "friend" when Judas came with the crowd to arrest Him. It was Jesus' last effort to break that stonny heart of Judas.
We should glory in God 's grace and mercy towards us and other, with thanksgiving for mercifully saving ourselves and all of the other believers we know. We are to look out for the best interests of others and to think of others as better than ourselves, being as we are lowly sinners as they, corrupted by sin and having a rebellion within our fallenness that all people have in common.
Praise God that Jesus has delivered us from this great depravity that comes from within ourselves. We are responsible for our failure to measure up to the righteousness of Jesus, yet we are helpless to remedy our state of our own strength. So glad that God, in His wisdom decided all aspects of creation, fall, redemption before all things were created. His sovereignty is truly a comfort to me, knowing He had all things worked out for our salvation to come to pass in the Son coming in the flesh to do what no normal, sinful human could ever do. Hallelujah!
I have never seen a vision. But my wife has seen a few.
In one of those visions she was standing infront of God's throne to be judged for her life. It was not her turn yet. Before her another person was judged. Both, my wife and that other person, had a paper in their hands written on it all the sins and wrong doings of their lives. That other person was a person known to my wife. As that other person, a woman also, was judged my wife was thinking of that other person "she has done this and that, and that ...". Any time my wife thought that that other woman did this wrong thing the same accusation was appearing on her paper too. So she thought it was better for her not to think of what wrong that other woman had done so that the same accusation wouldn't appear on her paper too.
Conclusion. God will be strict to us if we are srtict to our people. God will be merciful if we are merciful to others.
Romans 2:1-4
"1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"
Don't we all do more or less the same sins? So why do we judge our brothers for the same things we also do?
And if we don't do the same sins still we are not allowed to judge others. Because without God's grace we are all sinners. Maybe more, maybe less, but still sinners. And since we are all saved through God's grace there is nothing to boast about ourselves comparing ourselves to our brothers. Remember the Pharisee and the publican.
However, I would seek your impressions or understanding of the passage you quoted ( Romans 2:1-4) and also 1 Corinthians 5:9-13. I believe the latter one commands the Church to judge anyone who is "called a brother" & deal with him for his sins, by separation from him and excommunication. Yet, Romans 2:1-4 seems to denounce any judgement, knowing that the same sins are committed and we all stand under God's Judgement.
So, the problem I see here is, to whom is the apostle referring to in Romans? In chapter 1, he clearly is referring to the unsaved Gentiles ( Romans 1:18-32), showing their idolatry, lusts, & many sins. But when the apostle continues on in chapter 2, it now seems that the unsaved Jew is being spoken of, as those who are now hypocrites, judging others when their own sins are exposed. His use of "O Man, whosoever thou art that judgest" (v1) and "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law" (v17), indicates that Paul is now speaking to/about the unsaved Jew, who are no different to the Gentile, in their hypocrisy & unjust judgement.
The point I'm making here is, given those Scripture portions for consideration, I wonder what the limitations of the Church or even an individual believer are in this matter of judgement. Clearly, the elders have to continually make judgements against others (whether they choose to do so by identifying them, counseling, warning, or expulsion), and we too as individual believers need to recognize sinning wayward congregants, therefore making some type of judgement against them (whether done internally in our hearts or not). Maybe judgement is allowed after all, yet it must always be a 'righteous judgement', without hypocrisy & knowing that we still have to answer to the Lord for our thoughts, words & actions.
Can we help God do what He wants to do with our brothers? Let us help by praying for them. But what we often do is to spoil what God wishes to do by condemning our brothers and cause problems in the church.
Now from my experience in life I found out that if I can not bear what a brother has done and if I see that a dislike is created in my heart for that brother then it is better to close my eyes and see nothing. Firstly I must protect my own soul.
Finally I will tell you a real story which helps to see how God sees us, His children.
A sister suffered a type of cancer in her spinal cord or something like that. During a night on her bed in hospital she was suffering a lot. So she prayed to God to make the pain at least less painful than it was. And she heard inside her God's voice that told her, "I feel the same pain everytime I hear you gossiping and judging your brothers and sistrers". Obviously that sister was doing the wrong thing and God taught her a lesson. This is a real story Chris, it is not a tale, I heard it from that sister personally. For yor information she was finally cured after having some surgeries and a medical cure from a type of cancer that is almost 100% deadly.
I don't know if I have answered your questions brother. This how I see it. Let God correct me if I am wrong. Blessings.
Yet, even before all this takes place, our own heart's first response is critical. Do we get agitated & stew over such an offence committed and then simmer down only after the Spirit deals with our uncalled-for response; or rather, the mature believer immediately knows what turmoil is ready to arise in the heart, and rather than be tempted to judge, he quickly deals with it lest it becomes sin? This maybe easy to discern but certainly not easy to deal with. As the Holy Spirit takes control more & more of our lives, dealing with our weaknesses & failings, I think our thinking & attitudes will align much more closely to what God requires of our behavior. And this will express itself in our thinking, our speech & a true loving response to the one offending. Thanks again brother for these necessary reminders and that we ought to judge ourselves first in all things. Blessings.
So you see brother that the intention is to help my brother repent and correct himself, and not to condemn him.
Lets read Matthew 18:15-18. It is when my brother sins to me. In all three cases the outcome we wish to get is not to punish my brother, but to make him repent and so to "..., thou hast gained thy brother.". To gain him. Everything has to be done with love not with any other intention. The outcome must be to "gain my brother.". But if I Judge/condemn my brother things change. Even in the case when a fornication occured in Corinth Paul suggests that that man had to be expelled from the church as a last means to make him repent 1 Cor 5:5, "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.".
Of course here we are dealing with serious sins, not just a lie or something similar. 1 Cor 11, "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.". We must always give the chance and the appropriate time for our brothers to repent but if they never do then we must expell them from the church, for them to repent , and for the rest to be protected.
But this is something to be done only by the elders or the pastor. Nobody else has the right to intervene in such matters apart from informing the hierarchy of the church.
Lately I have started seeing all those things under a different prism. Who saved us? Who brought us in a church? Who is making a huge effort to correct us, to change us? Isn't it God himself? Is it us that we have saved our brothers? Is it us that we have planted them in the church? Is it us that we are going to change them? Obviously not. This is God's task. So our focus must be in ourselves not in what the other person is doing or not doing. We are here to correct ourselves, not the others.
See pt 3
Really it is a complicated topic. The following is my opinion.
If we read Matthew 7:1-5 where it speaks about judging our brothers, the point of what Jesus is saying is not about discerning our brother's actions. The wrong doings of others are obvious to everybody. But there are two ways in seeing those actions. Either we judge them which means we condemn them for what they had done. Or we still see those sins but with a mood to help, not to condemn. We can cry and pray to God to help them. This is the right attitude I believe. It is the attitude of love.
As we grow spiritually and God walks us through various events in our life we get more tolerant to our brothers. Once when I was young in faith I cought a deacon saying a lie. So I condemned him in my heart, "a deacon saying a lie?" it was too much for me at that time. Later on I found myself in a condition that I was sort of compelled to lie. That tought me a lesson. Do not judge strictly your brother if you don't know what he goes through. In his shoes you might had done something worse than what he had done. When we are strict judges of our brothers God always passes us through the same path that our brother went through, so for us to understand how it feels and also to see how we behave ourselves under the same conditions. Then and only then we can realize the trials that our brothers are going through and be more tolerant to them.
Didn't Jesus know what Judas the Iscariot was doing all the time, that he was stealing money? Yes He did. So why didn't He send him away or reveal to others what he was doing? Because He was giving him the chance to repent. And He made clear to Judas that He knew what Judas was going to do and gave him all the time to repent, although He knew the outcome. Jesus did everything from His side to make Judas repent. He even called him "friend" when Judas came with the crowd to arrest Him. It was Jesus' last effort to break that stonny heart of Judas.
See pt 2
We should glory in God 's grace and mercy towards us and other, with thanksgiving for mercifully saving ourselves and all of the other believers we know. We are to look out for the best interests of others and to think of others as better than ourselves, being as we are lowly sinners as they, corrupted by sin and having a rebellion within our fallenness that all people have in common.
Praise God that Jesus has delivered us from this great depravity that comes from within ourselves. We are responsible for our failure to measure up to the righteousness of Jesus, yet we are helpless to remedy our state of our own strength. So glad that God, in His wisdom decided all aspects of creation, fall, redemption before all things were created. His sovereignty is truly a comfort to me, knowing He had all things worked out for our salvation to come to pass in the Son coming in the flesh to do what no normal, sinful human could ever do. Hallelujah!
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