Because I have believed in God, the gospel, and Jesus all my life, my life experience of living in God's favor clouded what I thought was the true Scriptural state of fallen man. I was granting far more to man in fallen state than is true because I have lived my life as a regenerated elect child of God under His grace, not as a vessel of wrath but one who God made a vessel of mercy early in my life as long as I can recall. In my immaturity and ignorance I held to a skewed view of humanity as being able to choose for or against God depending on one's will to cooperate with God or not. But my reasoning was not reflective of what Scripture truly taught. And when I seriously searched Scripture to find out what is true on this matter, I changed my belief to align with Scripture, not just what I had been taught or exposed to over time nor according to my lack of mature understanding of Scripture truth.
GOD'S RIGHT TO EXECUTE HIS WRATH AND JUSTICE AND TO GRANT HIS GRACE AND MERCY TO WHOM HE CHOOSES
God's perfect holiness and righteousness warrants His condemnation of sin and evil. He is just to condemn all humans and the sinful angels to eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire. All sinful beings deserve this judgment. It is just for God to judge this way. Humans may find that the exercise of His wrath, justice and eternal punishment incompatible with His love for sinners. But in God's infinite greatness both His love for sinners and His hate wrath for sinners are both true of Him. He does not make mistakes or act unholy and unrighteous ever. So, as humans, it is important that we accept this truth and not defame God's name by accusing Him of being wrong for having humans experience his wrath, judgment, and punishment. He is just and righteous in ALL of His ways. .
I will stop for tonight and pick up posting the rest on this topic tomorrow.
Thanks GiGi for presenting this very important topic of 'Mankind's spiritual depravity'. You have certainly given the matter excellent treatment showing how detestable our sinful condition is before a most Holy God. And yet, He has not abandoned us, but given us a way of escape from this entrapment, in & through His blessed Son. He has done it all, for He knew we could not do any of it for ourselves - not one iota. However, I will withold comment on some of your other parts (you will know which ones) till you address the matter of Election (where this would be more fully dealt with I'm sure).
All I would ask, as I've read through your submission here, is if you would in due course define your understanding of 'Regeneration' (for I suspect that we are not on the same page with it); and the matter of God's Love for all, yet His determination (according to His Will & Purpose) to save some & not others. So, I won't bring it up in this part of your postings. Thanks again, reminding us of our once awful state before God & His renewal work in us to bring about a complete transformation in every area of our lives.
My focus in this series of posts was to highlight the state of unregenerated mankind. I hope I have done well with this topic.
I will be speaking to the topics you mentioned in time. I am trying to let the Holy Spirit guide me as to the order of the topics presented. I do not have a hard and fast plan here, but will get to topics that seem to spring from and connect the previous topics.
I know S. Spencer and you have questions for me. I hope you both can be patient in this process I am going through. Please know that I mean well in all of this and do not wish to stir up any contention or acrimony among people here.
For me, this endeavor is helping me really get at the meat of these topics for myself. I may change my mind on some, for sure. I have not arrived in any way at a final fixed viewpoint yet and may not in this life. But diving into Scripture and learning as I go is worthwhile to me. I hope others may be helped in some way. This is not to elevate me in any way. I am on a journey and sharing that with people here. So, anyone can chime in and speak on their take on the topics I bring forward. I know I have much to learn and ways to grow in the Lord. This present journey is part of that for me at this time.
The Bible's definition of sin is found in 1 John 3:4, which states, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law".
The Hebrew word for sin is khata, which means "to fail" or "to miss the goal".
The Bible says that all people have sinned, and that sin leads to death.
Romans 5:6-10 reads "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This shows that God loves sinners and died for them while they were still sinners.
Christ was lifted up on the cross "That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This is a display of God's Love in his redemptive plans of salvation to a lost world.
(For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.)
SO YES! This display of Love and INVITATION is to all sinners!!
HOWEVER, God doesn't pardon the sinner BY his Love!
HE PROVIDED A SAVIOR BY HIS LOVE!
Christ was lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish!
Thanks for your reply and using biblical precepts for explaining. I didn't provide much clarity in my initial question. If one deliberately lives a life of sin, and takes pride in being a sinner by devoting their life to Satan, (i.e. witchcraft, sorcery, ect.) and have a made up mind to hate the Almighty God with all their heart & soul; Does the Almighty God love them? God doesn't love Satan nor the fallen ones that were kicked out of the Kingdom along with Satan. I hope this brings more depth.
I concur with Brother Chris, salvation is offered to anyone regardless of their present position!
In 1 Timothy 1:15 Paul says he was the chef of sinners. Jesus asked Paul in Acts 9:4 "why persecutest thou me? However Paul found grace. Paul was an instrument preserved before the foundation of the world by the foreknowledge of God.
When we consider the quote in Psalms 5:5
"thou hatest all workers of iniquity"
I believe that is those who are perhaps vessels of wrath who refuse the truth and deliberately going against God's will until the end with no repentance. God uses his foreknowledge to determine this as well.
Thanks for the insightful input. In conclusion, God love for mankind is absolutely immeasurable.
1st precept:"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." 1 Peter
1:12. 2nd precept: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27
God loves all his creation of mankind, but for those with a reprobate mind and chose to live in sin intentionally and refuses to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and never will, (worker of iniquity) God hates... unless they sincerely turn from evil and try to live a life to follow Christ according to the biblical texts "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalms 51:10).
God love is present regardless, because God is love, but His love for mankind is welcomed with open arms if we choose Him:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." John 4:7-9.
Hi KidinChrist. If I may add something to this discussion: you're correct that God has no love for Satan & his cohorts, as they have received their initial punishment for their disobedience to their Creator & usurping their position, by being banished from God's Presence. Now they await for their final punishment in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:10).
But as far as God's Love for mankind, in spite of those who hate Him & dabble in all types of wickedness or raising their fists against Him, we know from the Word that this is still the day of Salvation that is offered to them and to each one of us. While there is time, the Gospel that went out after the ascension of our Lord is still the same Gospel that goes out today - the only one that offers God's Salvation, demonstrating His Love for all. If God hates such sinnners now, then the salvation message is useless to them & they would be forever doomed. But we have no such instruction from the Bible, except that which was given to the disciples of Christ to 'go into all nations, teaching, baptizing, and to obey'. But if any would not receive them or hear them, they were to depart from there, 'shaking the dust from their sandals as a testimony against their obstinacy'.
And yet, Jesus taught an important aspect of God's Love & God loving all, in Luke 6:32, "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them." We can easily understand this verse when we apply it ourselves, but the same principle applies to how God loves us. If God only loved those who returned their love to Him, how does that reflect on God's attitude to both the loving and unloving towards Him? We might fail in this by showing love & favor to those who are kind & loving towards us & not so (or, not so much) to those who despise us, but does God behave as we do, we who have carnal tendencies? If Jesus' Words & Life perfectly reflected His Father, then we know that God still loves all sinners.
Thanks for the insightful input. In conclusion, God love for mankind is absolutely immeasurable.
1st precept:"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." 1 Peter
1:12. 2nd precept: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27
God loves all his creation of mankind, but for those with a reprobate mind and chose to live in sin intentionally and refuses to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and never will, (worker of iniquity) God hates... unless they sincerely turn from evil and try to live a life to follow Christ according to the biblical texts "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalms 51:10).
God love is present regardless, because God is love, but His love for mankind is welcomed with open arms if we choose Him:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." John 4:7-9.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. It has certainly stirred up my "reasoning."
Two scriptures that came to mind as I was reading your post was Psalms 19:12 & 13, where we pray to the Lord to make us better.
Thank you!
"keeping of them there is great reward. 12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 1" KJV
Yes, those two Scripture verses are well worth taking seriously. We all should hope to stand before God humbly asking for help in overcoming sin, character flaws, and be shown how we are out of sorts with the truth of God's Word. I pray to remain teachable, hungry for the things of God, and to grow as a listener. Be blessed tonight.
Pt. 10
Because I have believed in God, the gospel, and Jesus all my life, my life experience of living in God's favor clouded what I thought was the true Scriptural state of fallen man. I was granting far more to man in fallen state than is true because I have lived my life as a regenerated elect child of God under His grace, not as a vessel of wrath but one who God made a vessel of mercy early in my life as long as I can recall. In my immaturity and ignorance I held to a skewed view of humanity as being able to choose for or against God depending on one's will to cooperate with God or not. But my reasoning was not reflective of what Scripture truly taught. And when I seriously searched Scripture to find out what is true on this matter, I changed my belief to align with Scripture, not just what I had been taught or exposed to over time nor according to my lack of mature understanding of Scripture truth.
GOD'S RIGHT TO EXECUTE HIS WRATH AND JUSTICE AND TO GRANT HIS GRACE AND MERCY TO WHOM HE CHOOSES
God's perfect holiness and righteousness warrants His condemnation of sin and evil. He is just to condemn all humans and the sinful angels to eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire. All sinful beings deserve this judgment. It is just for God to judge this way. Humans may find that the exercise of His wrath, justice and eternal punishment incompatible with His love for sinners. But in God's infinite greatness both His love for sinners and His hate wrath for sinners are both true of Him. He does not make mistakes or act unholy and unrighteous ever. So, as humans, it is important that we accept this truth and not defame God's name by accusing Him of being wrong for having humans experience his wrath, judgment, and punishment. He is just and righteous in ALL of His ways. .
I will stop for tonight and pick up posting the rest on this topic tomorrow.
All I would ask, as I've read through your submission here, is if you would in due course define your understanding of 'Regeneration' (for I suspect that we are not on the same page with it); and the matter of God's Love for all, yet His determination (according to His Will & Purpose) to save some & not others. So, I won't bring it up in this part of your postings. Thanks again, reminding us of our once awful state before God & His renewal work in us to bring about a complete transformation in every area of our lives.
My focus in this series of posts was to highlight the state of unregenerated mankind. I hope I have done well with this topic.
I will be speaking to the topics you mentioned in time. I am trying to let the Holy Spirit guide me as to the order of the topics presented. I do not have a hard and fast plan here, but will get to topics that seem to spring from and connect the previous topics.
I know S. Spencer and you have questions for me. I hope you both can be patient in this process I am going through. Please know that I mean well in all of this and do not wish to stir up any contention or acrimony among people here.
For me, this endeavor is helping me really get at the meat of these topics for myself. I may change my mind on some, for sure. I have not arrived in any way at a final fixed viewpoint yet and may not in this life. But diving into Scripture and learning as I go is worthwhile to me. I hope others may be helped in some way. This is not to elevate me in any way. I am on a journey and sharing that with people here. So, anyone can chime in and speak on their take on the topics I bring forward. I know I have much to learn and ways to grow in the Lord. This present journey is part of that for me at this time.
Talk to you soon.
The Bible's definition of sin is found in 1 John 3:4, which states, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law".
The Hebrew word for sin is khata, which means "to fail" or "to miss the goal".
The Bible says that all people have sinned, and that sin leads to death.
Romans 5:6-10 reads "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This shows that God loves sinners and died for them while they were still sinners.
Christ was lifted up on the cross "That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This is a display of God's Love in his redemptive plans of salvation to a lost world.
(For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.)
SO YES! This display of Love and INVITATION is to all sinners!!
HOWEVER, God doesn't pardon the sinner BY his Love!
HE PROVIDED A SAVIOR BY HIS LOVE!
Christ was lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish!
Blessings
Thanks for your reply and using biblical precepts for explaining. I didn't provide much clarity in my initial question. If one deliberately lives a life of sin, and takes pride in being a sinner by devoting their life to Satan, (i.e. witchcraft, sorcery, ect.) and have a made up mind to hate the Almighty God with all their heart & soul; Does the Almighty God love them? God doesn't love Satan nor the fallen ones that were kicked out of the Kingdom along with Satan. I hope this brings more depth.
-Peace and blessings
I concur with Brother Chris, salvation is offered to anyone regardless of their present position!
In 1 Timothy 1:15 Paul says he was the chef of sinners. Jesus asked Paul in Acts 9:4 "why persecutest thou me? However Paul found grace. Paul was an instrument preserved before the foundation of the world by the foreknowledge of God.
When we consider the quote in Psalms 5:5
"thou hatest all workers of iniquity"
I believe that is those who are perhaps vessels of wrath who refuse the truth and deliberately going against God's will until the end with no repentance. God uses his foreknowledge to determine this as well.
Blessings.
Thanks for the insightful input. In conclusion, God love for mankind is absolutely immeasurable.
1st precept:"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." 1 Peter
1:12. 2nd precept: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27
God loves all his creation of mankind, but for those with a reprobate mind and chose to live in sin intentionally and refuses to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and never will, (worker of iniquity) God hates... unless they sincerely turn from evil and try to live a life to follow Christ according to the biblical texts "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalms 51:10).
God love is present regardless, because God is love, but His love for mankind is welcomed with open arms if we choose Him:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." John 4:7-9.
-Peace and blessings
God bless you and by the way, Welcome to the site!
Thanks for enlightening me and for the warm welcome to the site. God bless you!
But as far as God's Love for mankind, in spite of those who hate Him & dabble in all types of wickedness or raising their fists against Him, we know from the Word that this is still the day of Salvation that is offered to them and to each one of us. While there is time, the Gospel that went out after the ascension of our Lord is still the same Gospel that goes out today - the only one that offers God's Salvation, demonstrating His Love for all. If God hates such sinnners now, then the salvation message is useless to them & they would be forever doomed. But we have no such instruction from the Bible, except that which was given to the disciples of Christ to 'go into all nations, teaching, baptizing, and to obey'. But if any would not receive them or hear them, they were to depart from there, 'shaking the dust from their sandals as a testimony against their obstinacy'.
And yet, Jesus taught an important aspect of God's Love & God loving all, in Luke 6:32, "For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them." We can easily understand this verse when we apply it ourselves, but the same principle applies to how God loves us. If God only loved those who returned their love to Him, how does that reflect on God's attitude to both the loving and unloving towards Him? We might fail in this by showing love & favor to those who are kind & loving towards us & not so (or, not so much) to those who despise us, but does God behave as we do, we who have carnal tendencies? If Jesus' Words & Life perfectly reflected His Father, then we know that God still loves all sinners.
Thanks for the insightful input. In conclusion, God love for mankind is absolutely immeasurable.
1st precept:"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." 1 Peter
1:12. 2nd precept: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27
God loves all his creation of mankind, but for those with a reprobate mind and chose to live in sin intentionally and refuses to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ and never will, (worker of iniquity) God hates... unless they sincerely turn from evil and try to live a life to follow Christ according to the biblical texts "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalms 51:10).
God love is present regardless, because God is love, but His love for mankind is welcomed with open arms if we choose Him:
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." John 4:7-9.
-Peace and blessings
Thanks for the clarity.
There are those who reject the precious gift of Christ and there are those who are deceived.
I would refer you to Psalms 5:4-5
"For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all WORKERS OF INIQUITY.
I believe the phrase WORKERS OF INIQUITY refers to people who actively engage in sinful behavior, oppose righteousness and defy God's laws.
Blessings.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. It has certainly stirred up my "reasoning."
Two scriptures that came to mind as I was reading your post was Psalms 19:12 & 13, where we pray to the Lord to make us better.
Thank you!
"keeping of them there is great reward. 12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 1" KJV
Yes, those two Scripture verses are well worth taking seriously. We all should hope to stand before God humbly asking for help in overcoming sin, character flaws, and be shown how we are out of sorts with the truth of God's Word. I pray to remain teachable, hungry for the things of God, and to grow as a listener. Be blessed tonight.
Thank you for your response.
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