The Next subject is God's freely give undeserved grace.
GOD'S GRACE IS FREELY GIVEN, UNEARNED FAVOR WITH GOD
IT IS RECEIVING WHAT WE DO NOT DESERVE
IT IS GOD'S BLESSINGS IN THIS LIFE AND THE NEXT
What is the grace of God? Simply put it is God's favor and kindness toward us. Grace is God choosing to bless us rather than curse us as our sin deserves. It is His benevolence to the undeserving.
But it also exerts God's power in our life to bring about all that is needed for us to be saved: regeneration, repentance, faith, and trust in God in Jesus. And in Titus 2:11-13 we read that God's grace empowers us to say yes to what is right and no to what is sinful. It enables us to live godly lives in a wicked world.
The Holy Spirit uses grace to sanctify us unto God and to transform us to be more and more like our Lord and Savior. And it provides us with a sure and blessed hope of the appearing of Jesus, the great God and Savior. Without grace, we would give up on this hope. But God graces us with hope that does not fail.
God rains down grace on all mankind. He gave us the beauty and wonders of nature that we see each and every day. He gives us near misses when accidents are heading our way. He often brings us the right thing just in time. And He also gave us an innate conscience to know right from wrong. All these things are common graces, and everyone born on the earth has the benefit of them because God so loved the world.
Just being born on this planet includes many benefits. But when someone becomes a believer in Christ, that person receives even more graceful benefits from God reserved only for God's elect. In fact, believers are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm because we are united with Christ.
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" ( Acts 15:11).
Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves."
I stated, In the context of your posting, God so loved the world should be kept in John 3:16.
Gigi the reason I say that is because you contributed "WHOSOEVER" to only the elect when I mentioned it to Carlton as salvation being an invitation to all.
Whosoever thirst in Revelation 22:17 is the same whosoever in John 3:16.
God so loved the world is uniquely cosigned to John 3:16 because of what follows! "That he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
Let's examine that verse and include the previous verses.
14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
My questions to you would be, Jesus gave the example of Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness.
Was that to emphasize an elect or was it for the whole congregation?
And if God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that only the elect might be saved. When did he began to love them "after" he chose them or before?
If you're saying he loved them "before" he chose them then that would include "ALL" being that there was no difference between them all.
So, the whosoever is an invitation to All!
If he loved them after he chose them.
Are you saying God is partial?
It is getting late. See part 3 over the weekend as I read over a few more postings.
In regards to you question about the serpent on a pole that Moses lifted up in the desert which Jesus referenced, here are a few thoughts of mine.
When the Lord instructed Moses to raise the serpent in the wilderness, anyone of people of God (the chosen) could look to the serpent and be healed. The context of that account was not an action to be taken for the whole of humanity, but for the people God selected to be His people, a holy nation. So, we are dealing with the people God had set aside for Himself just as the elect are those God set aside before the creation to receive salvation.
My own question is: did every person among the Israelites who were bitten by the fiery serpents look to the raised serpent for healing? The text said that many had been bitten and died prior to the raising of the bronze serpent. And the text does not say that everyone who was bitten id look to the serpent to be healed and remain alive. But in this text, the whosoever are those who were bitten and did look to the bronze serpent for healing and life. They had faith to believe what the Lord had said would happen through Moses.
Similarly, in a much grander way, Jesus saying that He would be lifted up as the serpent was for people to have life, He meant that anyone who did who believed in Him through the Word of God in the Gospel will also be saved and have eternal life. The whosoever in this case are those who do believe in Jesus, not the ones who did not believe. Otherwise, everyone would be saved whether they believe or not. I do not think that the Bible teaches such universalism.
Over the course of church history, many millions or even billions have heard the call of the Gospel, but only those who belie3ve will receive salvation and eternal life. I pretty much think that we both agree on this point. So, where we differ is perhaps on who the elect are, how they become elect. Perhaps even other aspects of this topic. I will consider this and post later.
God so loved the world. He loves His creation and is benevolent in administering His reign over it.
I believe that God loved the elect from before the world began and works in the life of the elect to bring them to faith and salvation. I do not believe that He begins t love us after we are saved. Jeremiah 3:13 says that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
As to your point about the "whosoever" of John 3:16 and the availability of salvation to all I believe that the Gospel is to be preached to every nation, tongue, and people. It calls people to be reconciled to God. Unregenerate people cannot believe the Gospel because they do not want to. They are unable to respond to the call of the Gospel because they are dead in sin and cannot please God or seek Him. Unless God does a work of grace in an unregenerate person, they will to reject the Gospel call and will to be at enmity with God. They are truly hopeless to come to Christ. I believe that only those who God regenerates are able to obey the call of the Gospel and that these people are the "elect".
For now, this is all I wish to write in this post addressing some of your questioning of what I have posted. I appreciate your response and will spend some time considering your other points.
I would like to ask one thing of you, though. Would you explain what you think about the topics I posted on, not to query me but to explain your position as I have done. That will help me understand more fully your viewpoint. Thanks in advance.
You referenced Jerimiah 3:13 in saying that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
Here is Jerimiah 3:13 "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Perhaps you had another verse in mind. Also, you can't take what was written for Israel and apply it to the church.
As requested, here is what I believe.
Part 1
When considering John 3:13-21 and many other scriptures and then to contribute God's Love, Mercy and Compassion to only the elect is error.
The scripture clearly says For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. John 3:16-17.
The invitation is to ALL!
Look at the conditions in verse 18)
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
However you stated, We are not given the reason why He chooses some AND NOT OTHERS or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it. So I ask you, How is the Love of God and Mercy displayed to them?
Note;
I'm not asking how and why God chooses to do the things you say he do!
I'm asking how do God display the Love of God?
The crucifixion is God's Love on display!
This is important to understand considering Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Indeed, God does love the world. He loves all of His creation. And I did say that He does bestow common grace and mercy upon all humanity. Otherwise, we all would be consumed and destroyed the first time we actively sin. God has compassion on sinful man in many ways. However, Romans 1:18 does teach that God's wrath is upon all wickedness in those who suppress the truth. basically sinners. If I were to go by what you seem to imply, God certainly cannot exercise His wrath or judgement on sinners because He loves the world (humans). This is not biblically sound and if it is biblically true, all people would be saved, but Scripture does not teach this.
I said in my writing that God's SAVING grace and mercy and love is given to the elect, but not to those He did not choose for salvation. If you are of the Arminian persuasion you would be aware that they teach about God's prevenient grace and also saving grace. I agree that God's grace comes to humans in different ways with differing effects as Arminius taught. But I am not Arminian in my thinking. I used to be for many decades, because that was all I really knew. But when I began to examine its teachings against Scripture, I moved away from that.
You said that I cannot attribute something that is for Israel for Christians. This is a tenet of dispensationalism, but is not from the Bible unless you can give me a Scripture that teaches so.
I know that you had some other questions for me. However, I do not wish to get into a back and forth, picking apart each others' viewpoints. I would much prefer that you do as I did-study these topics according to what Scripture says and then present your developed viewpoint on this forum so that others can read both viewpoints and go to Scriptures to see which one better explains what Scriptures do teach.
I appreciate that you are engaging with me. May the truth win out overall.
I don't read these debated messages until I'm ready to focus on them.
Firstly, Thanks for responding.
Jeremiah 31:3 is not written "TO" anyone but Israel! It is a specific message "TO" them.
It doesn't apply to us as you stated, "God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love"
Here is how the chapter starts.
Jeremiah 31:1-2.
Everything is written for our learning but everything is not written TO us.
God is telling Israel why he is going to do that which is mentioned in the following verses.
Jeremiah 31:4-7. and then-
8) Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9) They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Now look at verse 10! It's written to you and I and the rest of the world!
10) HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD, O YE NATIONS, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
This is future!
It Parallels with Jeremiah 16:14-15.
What you and I should take from that is that God keeps his promises.
If you were to go by what I seem to imply, God certainly cannot exercise His wrath or judgement on sinners because He loves the world (humans). This is not biblically sound and if it is biblically true, all people would be saved, but Scripture does not teach this.
Gigi that's far from anything I ever said.
I said, "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son" and the whosoever in these passages implies a invitation to EVERYONE!
I didn't know we was debating your interpretation of this topic of election.
You never started it!
I was just pointing out that the verses you selected in your series of God's attributes you are presenting to springboard the election topic is mis used.
This was your opening statement when you began this series.
"Here is my next posting to follow the post of last month. Again, i welcome your comments, corrections, or differeing thoughts.
You also asked me to explain my position as you have done. That will help you understand more fully my viewpoint.
That's what I thought I was doing.
This is a debated subject and rely on scripture to be put in its proper context and a correct view of God' and his nature.
There's a lot more I am going to say on this important topic and on Jeremiah 31.
Replacement theology and how they the two co-exist in this topic.
However I will take that to a separate thread.
I will also await your response that you mentioned and I will reply back.
However we can cut it short here if you would like to so it won't be any back and forth.
I will take your input as a help to me. We can continue to speak on these matters. I just do not want to go into days and weeks of back and forth on one or two aspects of what is being discussed because that tends to take us far away from the overall content of what is being presented. I want to be generous to you and to hear you out, so again, I thank you and truly appreciate your conversation with me.
I am into a busy week for me here at the house, so I will be reading and considering what your responses and learn from you as I continue in my research and writing on the topics from the somewhat flexible outline I have in mind for my postings. Above all these things, I will be prayerful and seeking wisdom in God's Word, as we all should do. I am not looking to cause arguments on any of these topics and my motive is truly to present what I have learned so far on these topics. We are certainly learning the things of God all of our life and along the way we need to make adjustments, refinements, and even complete turn-arounds on our own views as we are led and taught with the guidance of the Holy Spirit from Scripture.
There is so many good theologians that debate this study from different viewpoints.
I certainly like this study because it is so much to learn from it.
It brings us right up to the way God chose and who he chose to be the heirs of his promises to Abraham and these promises and covenants is essential to the Christian faith.
I to have a busy week and will be in and out as time permits
The Old Testament sacrifices and offerings was a foreshadowing of Christ, and the individual responsibility was on him and there were consequences. Some were saved and some were not!
They all were under the same influence and given the ability to receive according to his response. Faith in that economy system that pointed towards Christ.
When the brazen serpent in the bible was lifted up it was an invitation for all!
We got to be careful to describe God's Devine nature as something he chooses to be. God doesn't choose to love! God IS Love! God doesn't choose to be Righteous! God IS Righteous! God doesn't choose to be Just! God is supreme Justice and those attributes work together and never cease.
When we lay all those attributes out it paint a picture of a merciful, loving God who so loved the "WORLD", that he gave his only begotten Son, that "WHOSOEVER" believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (It doesn't say just the elect and it don't cause speculation in the righteousness of God!)
If we say we don't know then everything we present should be considered opinion not absolute.
We may not be able to fully comprehend the degree of Gods attributes to the fullest, but we know God ways is higher than ours!
SO, by the word of God and the indwelling spirit we are expected to display the love of God in our lives.
1 John 3:17-18 reads,
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
How do we reconcile God not giving the invitation and opportunity and shutteth up his bowels of compassion to a lost world what is required for salvation considering Matthew 7:13. "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
I have uploaded your parts 1-9 into my documents so I can better understand your flow of ideas and to think about my responses.
I am currently working on the next section of my posts and want to stay on that, so I do not intend to go back and forth on matters with anyone at length. But I will pray for guidance on what I am to post specifically to you and what will simply go into the next postings.
I hope you can understand this. I want to stay on track of what it seems to me to present here and not get tangled up in prolonged debates, although I think it is a good thing for believers to engage with each other in serious debates. So, with that said, I will most likely post a further response to you tomorrow after I have re-read all of your posts and consider my responses, if any, at this point.
As usual, I thank you for your input. We are "iron sharpening iron" here and my hope is that others will be edified with what we have to say to one another as we search the Scriptures for knowledge and understanding on these topics. I am most interested in you (and others) posting as you have, laying out your viewpoint in a reasoned and coherent way. This allows others to search the Scriptures for themselves on the ideas we present as we post how we understand Scriptures to reveal on these important topics.
Have a good night. I certainly hope that the weather in your state and area is improving. We are having a rather balmy Jan. here in the NW with temps in the 50's some days. Our plants are thinking spring is coming and beginning to sprout. But we usually have a colder end of January-early February, so I hope they do not grow to much to then get damaged by freezing weather conditions. But I hope to get outside and do some clean up around the yard from the tree that was felled a few weeks ago and other winter gardening/lawn care. The rainy Nov. and Dec. has kept me from doing these things. I am looking forward to being outside in the fresh air.
We all have sinned and we "ALL" deserve our punishment.
God is merciful so he sent the Lamb of God to sacrifice. "Not to take away "sins" from man individually
He came to take away the SIN "that is the penalty of sin" John 1:29 reads "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (notice sin is singular)
1 John 2:2 we see "sins" is used. It's Plural! ( And he is the propitiation for our "SINS":
I believe this is because of the repeated charges against us because sin is still present with us. We have a great lawyer!
Look at what else verse 2 says AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!
God's atonement is not limited!
There's a portion of 2 Peter 2:1 that reads "even "DENYING" the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
These people are not saved!
But the Lord's purchase Peter designates applies to them if they would accept it!
This proves that the atonement was not limited!
The synonym for fair is Just! That's fair!
Quote from J Vernon Mcgee on John 6:37.
Election and free will are both in this verse. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" states a truth, and that is election. But wait a minute! and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" is also true, and "him that cometh to me" is free will. I don't know how to reconcile them, but they are both true. The Father gives men to Christ, but men have to come. And the ones that come are the ones, apparently, whom the Father gives to Him. You and I are down here, and we don't see into the machinery of heaven. I don't know how God runs that computer of election, but I know that He has given to you and to me a free will and we have to exercise it.
If we say you don't know why or how God chooses his elect, how can you say "you do believe that our election is not because God looked forward in history to see that we would choose to believe these things on our own or not?
Was not he using foreknowledge to choose you before the foundation of the world?
He knew you would sin right? yes!
When did he find that out?
When did he decide to send you a savior?
We know that God operates by his foreknowledge just by examining "When" Christ was ordained to be the substitute Lamb of God! BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! 1 Peter 1:19-20.
Also, when were we chosen? Before the foundation of the world! Ephesians 1:4.
There was a plan of redemption set forth before the curse was pronounce on the Earth and before the World began!
Apparently God knew Adam would sin.
You mentioned "Paul speaks clearly in Romans that no one is righteous or seeks God or can please God, being dead in sin and blind to the gospel of grace.
Gigi Paul is referencing the Un generated man as he stands without the Holy Spirit and him refusing the Life and light of the new birth which reveals the things of God.
This speaks of how he stands today as well as back then.
Paul is not making reference to the condition of man determining on when and how God made his Choice.
This is reward and Judgment which means there's conditions needed met and man couldn't meet those requirements!
Man had to believe and receive Christ.
The whosoever is an invitation to the world!
This is how it reads.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Predestination is never used in reference to unsaved people. God has never predestinated anybody to be lost.
If you are lost, it is because you have rejected God's remedy.
It is like a dying man to whom the doctor offers curing medicine. "If you take this, it'll heal you." The man looks at the doctor in amazement and says, "I don't believe you." Now the man dies and the doctor's report says he died of a certain disease, and that's accurate. But may I say to you, there was a remedy, and he actually died because he didn't take the remedy. God has provided a remedy. Let me repeat, God has never predestined anybody to be lost. That's where your free will comes in, and you have to determine for yourself what your choice will be. Predestination refers only to those who are saved. What it actually means is that when God starts out with one hundred sheep, He is going to come through with one hundred sheep. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" ( Rom. 8:28-29). Dr. R. A. Torrey used to say that this is a wonderful pillow for a tired heart. Those who are called according to His purpose are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. We're talking now about saved people. Romans goes on to explain how this is done. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" ( Rom. 8:30). When God starts out with one hundred sheep, He will come through with one hundred sheep.
Ephesians 1:3-4Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
IN CHRIST.
I believe This speaks of Christ being the vehicle that was determined before the foundation of the world in which men would be saved. I believe it is Christ who is predestinated!
I believe God looks in his rear view mirror at the future.
He knows who will receive Christ.
I also believe John 3:16-20 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than LIGHT, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the LIGHT, neither cometh to the LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the LIGHT, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I also believe John 1:6-9
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, WHICH LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.
Verse 12!
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Whosoever will come" is a phrase that is often used to extend an open invitation, implying that anyone who wants to participate is welcome.
It appears in the Bible in Revelation 22:17, which says, "And let him that is athirst come; and whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely".
The verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus offers eternal life in Christ to everyone who hears the word of the cross.
The "thirsty" in the verse symbolizes a deep spiritual longing or need, and the invitation to "come" is open to all who recognize their spiritual need.
This is a appeal to Everyone, not just the elect!
Everyone is given the light to recognize their spiritual need. The issue is that men loves Darkness.
Jn 1:7-9.
Jesus came for the lost sheet of Israel. Jesus Christ ministry began in Israel. They were blind to the gospel because of nonbelief.
Jn 1:10-12.
That brings us to Romans.
You can't interpret the passages in Romans 9 with the mindset that it applies to the church or salvation!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
This speaks of un merited Grace and chosen WAY is given by the word of promise apart from BIRTH RIGHT.
You have to draw your conclusion from Romans 9:6-12 to get the proper context and use some of the OT passages as reference.
You referenced Deuteronomy 7:6-8 as a "GOD'S FAVOR IS UPON HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE CHOSE, NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSE HIM" and Therefore, God chose Israel as His favored people, because from them, the Messiah would be born and live and die to save those God chose to save from pre-creation.
I would say that is only partially right.
This is not a passage that can be used as an example for electing a people for salvation.
God chose A MAN to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations
God chose Israel to be a light to the nations, a kingdom of priests, and to showcase his redeeming grace and righteous judgment. Isaiah 42:6-7
God chose a man (Abraham) to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations by faith.
Galatians 3:17-29.
Genesis 15:1-12
Genesis 22:15-18
"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Every time Israel angered the Lord; he remembered his oath to Abraham.
Here is Deuteronomy 7:8 reads (A verse you referenced)
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
That oath and covenant to Abraham still stands today, however look at the repetitive condition of throughout the years.
Deuteronomy 8:19-20.
Only thing here is elected is THE WAY AND MEANS through a promise to salvation by faith.
Spiritual Birth right elected by promise over natural or Birth right by the flesh.
This WAY would develope the children of promise.
Romans 9:4-11.
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In Romans 9:11-12 Paul is expanding on the Point he was making with Isaac in Romans 9:6-9.
This deals with birth rights. Not by man's will nor the physical first born but by Promise God's "Elected Way"
There's a pattern shown here throughout the scripture ,
God exercises his program apart from man's traditions.
God giving the Spiritual birth right to the second born instead of the natural first born as seen with Ephraim and Manasseh in Genesis 48:17-18.
Also, Christ came through none of the loins of the natural first born.
Romans chapters 9,10 and 11 centers around Future Israel.
I'm finally getting a chance to sit down to read a few more of your postings.
I haven't been able to keep up so I'm starting from the most recent and going backwards.
Here's something that caught my eye, You stated "believers are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the "HEAVENLY REALM" because we are united with Christ.
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
Then you referenced
Acts 15:11.
Look at this verse in its proper context!
Acts 15:7-11 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that THE GENTILES by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between US AND THEM, purifying THEIR hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ WE shall be saved, even as THEY.
Gigi, Peter is making a distinction between Himself and the other Jews (Kinsman of the flesh) and the Gentiles.
Peter is saying the Jews shall be saved apart from the law like the Gentiles.
Here's another very impressive issue that concerns me.
You Stated;
God rains down grace on all mankind. He gave us the beauty and wonders of nature that we see each and every day. He gives us near misses when accidents are heading our way. He often brings us the right thing just in time. And He also gave us an innate conscience to know right from wrong. All these things are common graces, and everyone born on the earth has the benefit of them BECAUSE GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.
In the context of your posting, God so loved the world should be kept in John 3:16.
This comment in particular. Salvation is a gift to each person that believe without partiality.
Just being born on this planet includes many benefits. But when someone becomes a believer in Christ, that person receives even more graceful benefits from God reserved only for God's elect. In fact, believers are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm because we are united with Christ. Amen!
GOD'S GRACE IS FREELY GIVEN, UNEARNED FAVOR WITH GOD
IT IS RECEIVING WHAT WE DO NOT DESERVE
IT IS GOD'S BLESSINGS IN THIS LIFE AND THE NEXT
What is the grace of God? Simply put it is God's favor and kindness toward us. Grace is God choosing to bless us rather than curse us as our sin deserves. It is His benevolence to the undeserving.
But it also exerts God's power in our life to bring about all that is needed for us to be saved: regeneration, repentance, faith, and trust in God in Jesus. And in Titus 2:11-13 we read that God's grace empowers us to say yes to what is right and no to what is sinful. It enables us to live godly lives in a wicked world.
The Holy Spirit uses grace to sanctify us unto God and to transform us to be more and more like our Lord and Savior. And it provides us with a sure and blessed hope of the appearing of Jesus, the great God and Savior. Without grace, we would give up on this hope. But God graces us with hope that does not fail.
God rains down grace on all mankind. He gave us the beauty and wonders of nature that we see each and every day. He gives us near misses when accidents are heading our way. He often brings us the right thing just in time. And He also gave us an innate conscience to know right from wrong. All these things are common graces, and everyone born on the earth has the benefit of them because God so loved the world.
Just being born on this planet includes many benefits. But when someone becomes a believer in Christ, that person receives even more graceful benefits from God reserved only for God's elect. In fact, believers are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm because we are united with Christ.
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" ( Acts 15:11).
Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves."
See Pt. 2
GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.
Part 2
I stated, In the context of your posting, God so loved the world should be kept in John 3:16.
Gigi the reason I say that is because you contributed "WHOSOEVER" to only the elect when I mentioned it to Carlton as salvation being an invitation to all.
Whosoever thirst in Revelation 22:17 is the same whosoever in John 3:16.
God so loved the world is uniquely cosigned to John 3:16 because of what follows! "That he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
Let's examine that verse and include the previous verses.
14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
My questions to you would be, Jesus gave the example of Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness.
Was that to emphasize an elect or was it for the whole congregation?
And if God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that only the elect might be saved. When did he began to love them "after" he chose them or before?
If you're saying he loved them "before" he chose them then that would include "ALL" being that there was no difference between them all.
So, the whosoever is an invitation to All!
If he loved them after he chose them.
Are you saying God is partial?
It is getting late. See part 3 over the weekend as I read over a few more postings.
Blessings.
In regards to you question about the serpent on a pole that Moses lifted up in the desert which Jesus referenced, here are a few thoughts of mine.
When the Lord instructed Moses to raise the serpent in the wilderness, anyone of people of God (the chosen) could look to the serpent and be healed. The context of that account was not an action to be taken for the whole of humanity, but for the people God selected to be His people, a holy nation. So, we are dealing with the people God had set aside for Himself just as the elect are those God set aside before the creation to receive salvation.
My own question is: did every person among the Israelites who were bitten by the fiery serpents look to the raised serpent for healing? The text said that many had been bitten and died prior to the raising of the bronze serpent. And the text does not say that everyone who was bitten id look to the serpent to be healed and remain alive. But in this text, the whosoever are those who were bitten and did look to the bronze serpent for healing and life. They had faith to believe what the Lord had said would happen through Moses.
Similarly, in a much grander way, Jesus saying that He would be lifted up as the serpent was for people to have life, He meant that anyone who did who believed in Him through the Word of God in the Gospel will also be saved and have eternal life. The whosoever in this case are those who do believe in Jesus, not the ones who did not believe. Otherwise, everyone would be saved whether they believe or not. I do not think that the Bible teaches such universalism.
Over the course of church history, many millions or even billions have heard the call of the Gospel, but only those who belie3ve will receive salvation and eternal life. I pretty much think that we both agree on this point. So, where we differ is perhaps on who the elect are, how they become elect. Perhaps even other aspects of this topic. I will consider this and post later.
Just wanted you to know, I haven't been ignoring you.
I've been trying to finish up this work week and get prepared for this coming winter storm.
I haven't been able to give much time to the site this week.
I figure this storm will make me set still and allow me to focus a little more on the site.
Blessings
I know you are working during the week. Hope the storm doesn't cause any trouble for you and your family.
I will speak to your last pint first.
God so loved the world. He loves His creation and is benevolent in administering His reign over it.
I believe that God loved the elect from before the world began and works in the life of the elect to bring them to faith and salvation. I do not believe that He begins t love us after we are saved. Jeremiah 3:13 says that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
As to your point about the "whosoever" of John 3:16 and the availability of salvation to all I believe that the Gospel is to be preached to every nation, tongue, and people. It calls people to be reconciled to God. Unregenerate people cannot believe the Gospel because they do not want to. They are unable to respond to the call of the Gospel because they are dead in sin and cannot please God or seek Him. Unless God does a work of grace in an unregenerate person, they will to reject the Gospel call and will to be at enmity with God. They are truly hopeless to come to Christ. I believe that only those who God regenerates are able to obey the call of the Gospel and that these people are the "elect".
For now, this is all I wish to write in this post addressing some of your questioning of what I have posted. I appreciate your response and will spend some time considering your other points.
I would like to ask one thing of you, though. Would you explain what you think about the topics I posted on, not to query me but to explain your position as I have done. That will help me understand more fully your viewpoint. Thanks in advance.
You referenced Jerimiah 3:13 in saying that God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love.
Here is Jerimiah 3:13 "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Perhaps you had another verse in mind. Also, you can't take what was written for Israel and apply it to the church.
As requested, here is what I believe.
Part 1
When considering John 3:13-21 and many other scriptures and then to contribute God's Love, Mercy and Compassion to only the elect is error.
The scripture clearly says For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. John 3:16-17.
The invitation is to ALL!
Look at the conditions in verse 18)
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
However you stated, We are not given the reason why He chooses some AND NOT OTHERS or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it. So I ask you, How is the Love of God and Mercy displayed to them?
Note;
I'm not asking how and why God chooses to do the things you say he do!
I'm asking how do God display the Love of God?
The crucifixion is God's Love on display!
This is important to understand considering Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
See part 2
Jeremiah 31:3 is the verse I meant.
Thank you for sharing a bit of your viewpoint.
Indeed, God does love the world. He loves all of His creation. And I did say that He does bestow common grace and mercy upon all humanity. Otherwise, we all would be consumed and destroyed the first time we actively sin. God has compassion on sinful man in many ways. However, Romans 1:18 does teach that God's wrath is upon all wickedness in those who suppress the truth. basically sinners. If I were to go by what you seem to imply, God certainly cannot exercise His wrath or judgement on sinners because He loves the world (humans). This is not biblically sound and if it is biblically true, all people would be saved, but Scripture does not teach this.
I said in my writing that God's SAVING grace and mercy and love is given to the elect, but not to those He did not choose for salvation. If you are of the Arminian persuasion you would be aware that they teach about God's prevenient grace and also saving grace. I agree that God's grace comes to humans in different ways with differing effects as Arminius taught. But I am not Arminian in my thinking. I used to be for many decades, because that was all I really knew. But when I began to examine its teachings against Scripture, I moved away from that.
You said that I cannot attribute something that is for Israel for Christians. This is a tenet of dispensationalism, but is not from the Bible unless you can give me a Scripture that teaches so.
I know that you had some other questions for me. However, I do not wish to get into a back and forth, picking apart each others' viewpoints. I would much prefer that you do as I did-study these topics according to what Scripture says and then present your developed viewpoint on this forum so that others can read both viewpoints and go to Scriptures to see which one better explains what Scriptures do teach.
I appreciate that you are engaging with me. May the truth win out overall.
Forgive me for responding to this post so late.
I held off from reading it until now.
I don't read these debated messages until I'm ready to focus on them.
Firstly, Thanks for responding.
Jeremiah 31:3 is not written "TO" anyone but Israel! It is a specific message "TO" them.
It doesn't apply to us as you stated, "God has loved us (His chosen) with an everlasting love"
Here is how the chapter starts.
Jeremiah 31:1-2.
Everything is written for our learning but everything is not written TO us.
God is telling Israel why he is going to do that which is mentioned in the following verses.
Jeremiah 31:4-7. and then-
8) Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9) They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Now look at verse 10! It's written to you and I and the rest of the world!
10) HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD, O YE NATIONS, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
This is future!
It Parallels with Jeremiah 16:14-15.
What you and I should take from that is that God keeps his promises.
If you were to go by what I seem to imply, God certainly cannot exercise His wrath or judgement on sinners because He loves the world (humans). This is not biblically sound and if it is biblically true, all people would be saved, but Scripture does not teach this.
Gigi that's far from anything I ever said.
I said, "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son" and the whosoever in these passages implies a invitation to EVERYONE!
I will need more space.
See part 2.
Pt 2.
I didn't know we was debating your interpretation of this topic of election.
You never started it!
I was just pointing out that the verses you selected in your series of God's attributes you are presenting to springboard the election topic is mis used.
This was your opening statement when you began this series.
"Here is my next posting to follow the post of last month. Again, i welcome your comments, corrections, or differeing thoughts.
You also asked me to explain my position as you have done. That will help you understand more fully my viewpoint.
That's what I thought I was doing.
This is a debated subject and rely on scripture to be put in its proper context and a correct view of God' and his nature.
There's a lot more I am going to say on this important topic and on Jeremiah 31.
Replacement theology and how they the two co-exist in this topic.
However I will take that to a separate thread.
I will also await your response that you mentioned and I will reply back.
However we can cut it short here if you would like to so it won't be any back and forth.
Blessings.
Again. thanks for your input.
I will take your input as a help to me. We can continue to speak on these matters. I just do not want to go into days and weeks of back and forth on one or two aspects of what is being discussed because that tends to take us far away from the overall content of what is being presented. I want to be generous to you and to hear you out, so again, I thank you and truly appreciate your conversation with me.
I am into a busy week for me here at the house, so I will be reading and considering what your responses and learn from you as I continue in my research and writing on the topics from the somewhat flexible outline I have in mind for my postings. Above all these things, I will be prayerful and seeking wisdom in God's Word, as we all should do. I am not looking to cause arguments on any of these topics and my motive is truly to present what I have learned so far on these topics. We are certainly learning the things of God all of our life and along the way we need to make adjustments, refinements, and even complete turn-arounds on our own views as we are led and taught with the guidance of the Holy Spirit from Scripture.
There is so many good theologians that debate this study from different viewpoints.
I certainly like this study because it is so much to learn from it.
It brings us right up to the way God chose and who he chose to be the heirs of his promises to Abraham and these promises and covenants is essential to the Christian faith.
I to have a busy week and will be in and out as time permits
Part 2
The Old Testament sacrifices and offerings was a foreshadowing of Christ, and the individual responsibility was on him and there were consequences. Some were saved and some were not!
They all were under the same influence and given the ability to receive according to his response. Faith in that economy system that pointed towards Christ.
When the brazen serpent in the bible was lifted up it was an invitation for all!
We got to be careful to describe God's Devine nature as something he chooses to be. God doesn't choose to love! God IS Love! God doesn't choose to be Righteous! God IS Righteous! God doesn't choose to be Just! God is supreme Justice and those attributes work together and never cease.
When we lay all those attributes out it paint a picture of a merciful, loving God who so loved the "WORLD", that he gave his only begotten Son, that "WHOSOEVER" believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (It doesn't say just the elect and it don't cause speculation in the righteousness of God!)
If we say we don't know then everything we present should be considered opinion not absolute.
We may not be able to fully comprehend the degree of Gods attributes to the fullest, but we know God ways is higher than ours!
SO, by the word of God and the indwelling spirit we are expected to display the love of God in our lives.
1 John 3:17-18 reads,
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
How do we reconcile God not giving the invitation and opportunity and shutteth up his bowels of compassion to a lost world what is required for salvation considering Matthew 7:13. "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
See Part 3
I'll be trying to get back to it by this weekend.
God bless
I have uploaded your parts 1-9 into my documents so I can better understand your flow of ideas and to think about my responses.
I am currently working on the next section of my posts and want to stay on that, so I do not intend to go back and forth on matters with anyone at length. But I will pray for guidance on what I am to post specifically to you and what will simply go into the next postings.
I hope you can understand this. I want to stay on track of what it seems to me to present here and not get tangled up in prolonged debates, although I think it is a good thing for believers to engage with each other in serious debates. So, with that said, I will most likely post a further response to you tomorrow after I have re-read all of your posts and consider my responses, if any, at this point.
As usual, I thank you for your input. We are "iron sharpening iron" here and my hope is that others will be edified with what we have to say to one another as we search the Scriptures for knowledge and understanding on these topics. I am most interested in you (and others) posting as you have, laying out your viewpoint in a reasoned and coherent way. This allows others to search the Scriptures for themselves on the ideas we present as we post how we understand Scriptures to reveal on these important topics.
Have a good night. I certainly hope that the weather in your state and area is improving. We are having a rather balmy Jan. here in the NW with temps in the 50's some days. Our plants are thinking spring is coming and beginning to sprout. But we usually have a colder end of January-early February, so I hope they do not grow to much to then get damaged by freezing weather conditions. But I hope to get outside and do some clean up around the yard from the tree that was felled a few weeks ago and other winter gardening/lawn care. The rainy Nov. and Dec. has kept me from doing these things. I am looking forward to being outside in the fresh air.
Part 3
God righteousness also means he's fair and just.
We all have sinned and we "ALL" deserve our punishment.
God is merciful so he sent the Lamb of God to sacrifice. "Not to take away "sins" from man individually
He came to take away the SIN "that is the penalty of sin" John 1:29 reads "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (notice sin is singular)
1 John 2:2 we see "sins" is used. It's Plural! ( And he is the propitiation for our "SINS":
I believe this is because of the repeated charges against us because sin is still present with us. We have a great lawyer!
Look at what else verse 2 says AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!
God's atonement is not limited!
There's a portion of 2 Peter 2:1 that reads "even "DENYING" the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
These people are not saved!
But the Lord's purchase Peter designates applies to them if they would accept it!
This proves that the atonement was not limited!
The synonym for fair is Just! That's fair!
Quote from J Vernon Mcgee on John 6:37.
Election and free will are both in this verse. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me" states a truth, and that is election. But wait a minute! and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" is also true, and "him that cometh to me" is free will. I don't know how to reconcile them, but they are both true. The Father gives men to Christ, but men have to come. And the ones that come are the ones, apparently, whom the Father gives to Him. You and I are down here, and we don't see into the machinery of heaven. I don't know how God runs that computer of election, but I know that He has given to you and to me a free will and we have to exercise it.
See Part 4
Part 4.
If we say you don't know why or how God chooses his elect, how can you say "you do believe that our election is not because God looked forward in history to see that we would choose to believe these things on our own or not?
Was not he using foreknowledge to choose you before the foundation of the world?
He knew you would sin right? yes!
When did he find that out?
When did he decide to send you a savior?
We know that God operates by his foreknowledge just by examining "When" Christ was ordained to be the substitute Lamb of God! BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! 1 Peter 1:19-20.
Also, when were we chosen? Before the foundation of the world! Ephesians 1:4.
There was a plan of redemption set forth before the curse was pronounce on the Earth and before the World began!
Apparently God knew Adam would sin.
You mentioned "Paul speaks clearly in Romans that no one is righteous or seeks God or can please God, being dead in sin and blind to the gospel of grace.
Gigi Paul is referencing the Un generated man as he stands without the Holy Spirit and him refusing the Life and light of the new birth which reveals the things of God.
This speaks of how he stands today as well as back then.
Paul is not making reference to the condition of man determining on when and how God made his Choice.
This is reward and Judgment which means there's conditions needed met and man couldn't meet those requirements!
Man had to believe and receive Christ.
The whosoever is an invitation to the world!
This is how it reads.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
See Part 5
Predestination.
Predestination is never used in reference to unsaved people. God has never predestinated anybody to be lost.
If you are lost, it is because you have rejected God's remedy.
It is like a dying man to whom the doctor offers curing medicine. "If you take this, it'll heal you." The man looks at the doctor in amazement and says, "I don't believe you." Now the man dies and the doctor's report says he died of a certain disease, and that's accurate. But may I say to you, there was a remedy, and he actually died because he didn't take the remedy. God has provided a remedy. Let me repeat, God has never predestined anybody to be lost. That's where your free will comes in, and you have to determine for yourself what your choice will be. Predestination refers only to those who are saved. What it actually means is that when God starts out with one hundred sheep, He is going to come through with one hundred sheep. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" ( Rom. 8:28-29). Dr. R. A. Torrey used to say that this is a wonderful pillow for a tired heart. Those who are called according to His purpose are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. We're talking now about saved people. Romans goes on to explain how this is done. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" ( Rom. 8:30). When God starts out with one hundred sheep, He will come through with one hundred sheep.
You must admit that that is a good percentage.
J Vernon Mcgee.
See Part 6
Part 6.
Predestinated.
Ephesians 1:3-4Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
IN CHRIST.
I believe This speaks of Christ being the vehicle that was determined before the foundation of the world in which men would be saved. I believe it is Christ who is predestinated!
I believe God looks in his rear view mirror at the future.
He knows who will receive Christ.
I also believe John 3:16-20 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than LIGHT, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the LIGHT, neither cometh to the LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the LIGHT, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I also believe John 1:6-9
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, WHICH LIGHTETH EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD.
Verse 12!
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
See Part 7
PT 7
Whosoever will come" is a phrase that is often used to extend an open invitation, implying that anyone who wants to participate is welcome.
It appears in the Bible in Revelation 22:17, which says, "And let him that is athirst come; and whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely".
The verse is interpreted to mean that Jesus offers eternal life in Christ to everyone who hears the word of the cross.
The "thirsty" in the verse symbolizes a deep spiritual longing or need, and the invitation to "come" is open to all who recognize their spiritual need.
This is a appeal to Everyone, not just the elect!
Everyone is given the light to recognize their spiritual need. The issue is that men loves Darkness.
Jn 1:7-9.
Jesus came for the lost sheet of Israel. Jesus Christ ministry began in Israel. They were blind to the gospel because of nonbelief.
Jn 1:10-12.
That brings us to Romans.
You can't interpret the passages in Romans 9 with the mindset that it applies to the church or salvation!
Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the PURPOSE of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
This speaks of un merited Grace and chosen WAY is given by the word of promise apart from BIRTH RIGHT.
You have to draw your conclusion from Romans 9:6-12 to get the proper context and use some of the OT passages as reference.
You referenced Deuteronomy 7:6-8 as a "GOD'S FAVOR IS UPON HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE CHOSE, NOT BECAUSE THEY CHOSE HIM" and Therefore, God chose Israel as His favored people, because from them, the Messiah would be born and live and die to save those God chose to save from pre-creation.
I would say that is only partially right.
This is not a passage that can be used as an example for electing a people for salvation.
God chose A MAN to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations
See 8
Part 8.
God chose Israel to be a light to the nations, a kingdom of priests, and to showcase his redeeming grace and righteous judgment. Isaiah 42:6-7
God chose a man (Abraham) to enter an unconditional covenant with and to perform an oath with whom he would make a father of many nations by faith.
Galatians 3:17-29.
Genesis 15:1-12
Genesis 22:15-18
"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Every time Israel angered the Lord; he remembered his oath to Abraham.
Here is Deuteronomy 7:8 reads (A verse you referenced)
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
That oath and covenant to Abraham still stands today, however look at the repetitive condition of throughout the years.
Deuteronomy 8:19-20.
Only thing here is elected is THE WAY AND MEANS through a promise to salvation by faith.
This is what Roman 9 is talking about.
See Part 9
Romans 9:4-11.
Part 9.
Spiritual Birth right elected by promise over natural or Birth right by the flesh.
This WAY would develope the children of promise.
Romans 9:4-11.
4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
In Romans 9:11-12 Paul is expanding on the Point he was making with Isaac in Romans 9:6-9.
This deals with birth rights. Not by man's will nor the physical first born but by Promise God's "Elected Way"
There's a pattern shown here throughout the scripture ,
God exercises his program apart from man's traditions.
God giving the Spiritual birth right to the second born instead of the natural first born as seen with Ephraim and Manasseh in Genesis 48:17-18.
Also, Christ came through none of the loins of the natural first born.
Romans chapters 9,10 and 11 centers around Future Israel.
Blessings
I'm finally getting a chance to sit down to read a few more of your postings.
I haven't been able to keep up so I'm starting from the most recent and going backwards.
Here's something that caught my eye, You stated "believers are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the "HEAVENLY REALM" because we are united with Christ.
"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
Then you referenced
Acts 15:11.
Look at this verse in its proper context!
Acts 15:7-11 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that THE GENTILES by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between US AND THEM, purifying THEIR hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ WE shall be saved, even as THEY.
Gigi, Peter is making a distinction between Himself and the other Jews (Kinsman of the flesh) and the Gentiles.
Peter is saying the Jews shall be saved apart from the law like the Gentiles.
Here's another very impressive issue that concerns me.
You Stated;
God rains down grace on all mankind. He gave us the beauty and wonders of nature that we see each and every day. He gives us near misses when accidents are heading our way. He often brings us the right thing just in time. And He also gave us an innate conscience to know right from wrong. All these things are common graces, and everyone born on the earth has the benefit of them BECAUSE GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.
In the context of your posting, God so loved the world should be kept in John 3:16.
Please see part 2.
GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD..
This comment in particular. Salvation is a gift to each person that believe without partiality.
Just being born on this planet includes many benefits. But when someone becomes a believer in Christ, that person receives even more graceful benefits from God reserved only for God's elect. In fact, believers are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm because we are united with Christ. Amen!
We are so blessed in our Savior!
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