Since we know that Scripture reveals God's right and authority and power and prerogative to do as He pleases and we know that whatever He pleases to do is always holy, good, righteous, and pure, we must admit that He is free to determine the judgment and curse of sin for sinners according to His wisdom, not ours. And we must admit that He is free to show favor to whomever He pleases and to withhold it from whomever He pleases. ( Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15).
God alone determines what is morally right and wrong. He alone decides how He will deal with sin, evil, and wickedness in His creation. He alone decided that He will unconditionally redeem those He has chosen before creation to receive His mercy, grace, and favor. He alone determined that those who are unredeemed sinners are under eternal condemnation and recipients of His unmitigated wrath. In all of these determinations, God is just, right, and sovereign.
Hi GiGi. As with bros S. Spencer & Carleton, I appreciated what you had submitted & found it very sound, though my thoughts too focussed on your sentence, "And we must admit that He is free to show favor to whomever He pleases and to withhold it from whomever He pleases. ( Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15)."
On its own, that Truth certainly stands firm without question. But the question that arises in my mind is: if that's all we had to go on, then God is indiscriminate in granting His Favor, Mercy, & Graciousness, and by extension, those not receiving that Love are consigned to complete estrangement from Him & His Salvation for no fault of their own since that was already His Will for them. To deal with such a thought & undergirding it with John 3:16 for example, that God loved the world (of sinners), I've always believed that there was something behind God's election of people, that caused Him to show or withhold favor to some & not others. Maybe this thought of mine goes outside the purvue of your submissions, but wanted to share, as you've invited comments.
As an example, & this would particularly be of interest to ex-military, our drill sergeant asked us to form a single line before him, with the tallest men at the ends, descending to the shorter ones in the center. From the left, each guy had to shout out numbers from 1, 2, etc. Then the command for only the odd numbers to take two steps forward (always had that one who forgot his number). And then with the two lines of men before him, the command given to turn right. What we had now were two lines of men that still maintained the height order that the sergeant wanted & without any other requirement (i.e. not character or expertise-based). This then would be an authority figure who randomly elected each one to a position in the squad, without any pre-knowledge or pre-qualification.
Should we understand God to also be so indiscriminate in selection, randomly appointing some to receive His Favor, others not?
With this said. the dynamics of God executing His will and purposes in History sovereignly and the freedom man has to choose these things all on his own according to what he desires most in a given situation is a paradox we probably won't understand this side of paradise. But we can know that God is so much greater that any of us and is able to have these two things occur simultaneously without God sinning against Himself or His creation and without forcing man to do something he does not freely will. Both exist, but only God truly knows the whole of it, we know in part.
I know that anyone who comes to desire to be saved and believes the Gospel, putting faith in Jesus and trusting God accomplish the work of salvation IS elected to salvation before God created anything. But the only way one can come to desire ad believe these things is because of the work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate us, giving us a desire to be saved and faith to believe. It is not of ourselves, but of God completely as a result of God choosing to have mercy on us, favor us, and be gracious to us.
Thank you for responding to what I posted. I value feedback, especially from you because you are so sincere and respectful.
Thank you for your response GiGi. And to be fair, I should wait for your submission on Election, though I see that you have brought it up in your other recent posts. In any case, you shared a couple of Scriptures: Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:18. And we could include Romans 9:15. In each of those examples, it is clear that God has the power to relegate mercy & blessings or else judgement & punishment, according to His Will. But none of those examples point to the soul's salvation; in the first instance, for accepting Moses' requests for God's Presence both with His people & to pass before his (Moses') own eyes. God approved of Moses, his position appointed to him, & Moses' uncertainty & lack of assurance of God's Work before his eyes.
In Romans 9:15,18, we read of the selection of Jacob & his descendants over Esau & his, that "the election of God might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (v11); i.e. through Sarah & not Hagar. And v18: where Pharoah's heart was hardened by God in the matter of the Israelites departure from Egypt. These examples serve to show that God indeed has every right to do with us according to His Purposes. But how should this be understood when referring to the sinful condition of the human heart and its need for salvation, given the Holy Character of God? Can we expect that God will apply the same conditions of Election as seen in those examples: Moses' standing before God; the descendency of His special people through Isaac & Jacob; & using a heathen ruler to accomplish His Will, when the very essence of His Offer & Provision of His Salvation through His Son is bathed in Holy Love & Mercy for all, for all have sinned?
May I intervene in your discusion with GiGi about the "elected" people? It is true that God selects people for salvation. But why does God select some persons over some other? The story of Jacob and Esau gives us the answer.
Romans 10-15, "10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
, 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
God selected Jacob over Esau not of works. actually both men were not born yet, but due to His grace. But how is that grace is granted to somebody? The lives of both men show the answer. Jacod wanted to receive the promises given to Abraham, Esau thought those promises were not of any value so he sold them to Jacob for some food, similarly Judas sold Jesus for some money. They both gave away the most valuable thing in the world for something useless, they completely humiliated God and His promises. Jacob didn't do any work so that the promises given to Abraham to be given to him, but simply believed in God's promises and went for them, Esau didn't. So God who knows beforehand what both men will do in the future selected Jacob. Just think if God selected Esau. How it would seem to us that God selects somebody who doesn't believe in Him and humiliates His promises? Not possible, isn't it? So God selects people according to how they will stand infront the salvation He offers to people through Jesus. It says somewhere that the will of God is that ALL people will be saved, but not everybody believes in Christ, so they are not selected.
Brother Giannis. Always glad to hear from you & receive your understanding of the Word of God. This subject of election I have temporarily laid aside, as I await GiGi's commentary on it specifically, as she continues with her subject of God's Attributes/Character which I've appreciated very much.
But since you've raised it here, and cited Romans 9:9-16 in respect of Esau & Jacob, I also referred to this Scripture in my response as you've seen. My emphasis was on the fact that God's Sovereignty in Election in this case was based wholly on His choosing the descendency of Israel, His chosen people, and NOT for the salvation of their souls: each one in Israel, along with Isaac, Jacob, Esau & all of Israel, were still responsible before God for their faith, obedience, & devotion. So, there would be many in Israel, then & now, who would be rejected by God for salvation in spite of their Election, receiving the Law & Promises. Indeed, "not all Israel which are of Israel" ( Romans 9:4-6).
I understand from what you've shared here, that you too believe in the "foreknowledge of God" in His election of those to be saved. Romans 8:29,30 and 1 Peter 1:2 particularly reveal this Truth. Now, I realize that some have 'reinterpreted' 'Foreknowledge' (Gk. prognosis) to be in relation to His Sovereign Plan without any factor affecting it (whether from man or God Himself): i.e. He simply chooses & it happens. Whereas, I believe, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that 'Foreknowledge' in the New Testament refers to the prior knowledge of God, particularly seen in His Omniscience and Sovereign Plan. It implies God's prior knowledge of all events, all individuals, of all time, and quite often in the context of His redemptive purposes for mankind. This term is used to express the concept that God, in His infinite Wisdom, knows all things before they happen and has a predetermined plan for creation and salvation according to that knowledge. To Page 2.
And you're correct about 2 Peter 3:9 & of course, John 3:16,17. How could we speak of a loving God Who has 'suffered long with a wholly sinful & depraved world, & yet not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'? And this verse could not be applied solely to the elect whom God will save, and not the world of sinners, because He would know that according to His Plan of Election, that the Elect would definitely be saved & could never perish into everlasting fire - for that is not His Will & Plan for His Elect. It therefore must mean that God is giving the world time to hear the Gospel, be convicted by His Holy Spirit, repent, & be saved - and this salvation & rebirth they receive reveals God's Election for them; and yes, God already knew they would be saved & those who would refuse His Son. GBU.
It does make any difference whether we talk about Israel or the church when we refer to "selection". Both were selected, for different reasons but with the same way. Israel for bringing the Savior into the world and the church for bringing the Savior all over the world.
Has God chosen Israel? Actually the answer is that God didn't chose but actually created Israel through Abraham. So all Israel through the centuries was invited/selected to participate in His plan to bring the Savior on earth but not everybody was willing to participate. Everybody in that nation was selected but not everybody accepted that invitation. It says somewhere that (in my words) many are invited but few are selected. Why would God invite somebody whom He wouldn't want to save? Here the free will of people comes into account.
Similarly Judas was selected and invited to be an apostle but he didn't guard his heart and eventually loved money more than Jesus, and we know his end.
If God selects someone for any reason other than knowing beforehand their attitude towards His gospel, then He would had been an unrighteous God. And we know He is not. Jesus has revealed to us everything we need to know about God, His character, His attitudes, etc
Thank you Giannis. Deuteronomy 7:6-8: "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."
It seems that was already in God's Mind & Plan that He would 'create' a special people (as you mentioned), & that would happen coming out from the people of the world; and according to His Oath made to Israel's forefathers, setting His Love upon them. God could have chosen any people, but was it just a random selection/chance that the lot fell on Abraham & his progeny? Or did God already know that Abraham would be the one to obey the call & leave everything behind in obedience, in love & servitude to the Living God? Or, could God have selected a dozen possible men from the world & pick the one who showed the greatest propensity to obey & follow Him? We could have many options, but without God's Omniscience being at the forefront in His Elective Program, to me, nothing else seems to fit for understanding (to some degree) the mysterious workings of God.
I can understand your query on this topic of God being free to favor whomever He wishes and to not favor whomever He does not.
We see God speaking this way to Moses in Exodus 33:19 when Moses asked to see God's glory and also in Romans 9:18.
I will speak on this more when I get to the topic of election, but for this post I will say that I don't think we really know why God chooses the way He does in election and in extending His grace and mercy to some to save the elect and not to others. But I do believe that everyone who is not elected is not condemned so much because God determined it to be so (which is strict determinism) but rather stand condemned because they freely chose to sin against God as we all have done and are therefore completely responsible for being vessels of wrath as Romans 9 states. However, the elect were chosen by God before creation and before any of us had done anything good or evil, as Jacob and Esau are given as an example in Romans 9.
I can't truly say why God chose you or me or anyone who is given faith by God to believe the Gospel and place our faith in Jesus alone for salvation. But I do believe that our election is not because God looked forward I history to see that we would choose to believe these things on our own because Paul speaks clearly in Romans that no one is righteous or seeks God or can please God, being dead in sin and blind to the gospel of grace. Although God does know all things past present and future and works history out according to His perfect, wise, and holy will, pleasure, and plan for creation. This does not mean that He is the cause of all things that happen, but that He is sovereign in whatever comes about in history as a whole and in individual lives. He brings about circumstances to affect people for His purposes and allows or disallows events according to this same wisdom and will. But this is not determinism because every person chooses freely their actions, words, and motives . see Pt. 2
Good morning brother Spencer and GIGI! Hope all is well this new year! Good discussion. A morning meditation. We are reminded of Lot's wife whom did follow her husband out of Sodom as Lot was led by faith, until she justified herself by looking back to Sodom. This act made her worthless to the Lord. Unlike Adam, Lot did not follow his wife into the transgression allowing the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus to sanctify him by the faith of Abraham. I agree, the just live by faith and are blessed with grace to do so.
What I can say for certain is that I am so thankful that God has chosen me to receive His mercy and grace for my salvation!. Such a beautiful way to save us. It is all of God and none of me! We can never boast about our faith, our righteousness or having "chosen Jesus" because He clearly said that He chose us, not us choosing Him when addressing the disciples and that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them to Christ our Lord. We are recipients of the greatest gift God can give us and we do not deserve it. But how glorious is His way of saving the elect!
John 3:16 says "Whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall be saved and not be condemned." The "whosoever are those elected by God for salvation and it is He who makes it happen for us through Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.
Good morning GIGI! Praying for good health your way! My morning meditation. That we are known of God as we know Him and remain steadfast in that knowledge, our conversation with each other and God will grow and produce fruit.
I would like to touch on something you said but may have not meant to.
Gigi, You stated "And we must admit that God is free to show FAVOR to whomever He pleases and to withhold it from whomever He pleases. .
I believe we can see a glimpse of Gods Judgment Justified by Righteousness in Genesis and throughout the Bible.
Here's one example.
Genesis 18:22-33 We see God works his Judgment off his Righteousness. He's faithful in doing that and we can expect that as did Abraham!
Verses 22-25.
"And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: SHALL NOT THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH DO RIGHT?
There is a pre-condition has to be met here to escape. "One would have to be "RIGHTEOUS"
God didn't decide to say "Oh let me go make or elect to make Lot righteous before I destroy the place.
God is sovereign and can do as he pleases so Abraham reasoned with God understanding his nature as one who judge in Righteousness!
God answers Abraham off of that basis.
Verse 26) "And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes"
The free gift is Christ and it comes by faith! Paul says in Romans 1:16-17. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
I am glad to respond to you on this topic. Please read what I posted to Chris and what I post to you here will follow that post to Chris.
In using the word favor, I am not speaking of favoritism, but biblically as it is used in Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:18. God's favor is God's good pleasure extended to undeserving creatures. Hope that clears that question up a bit for you.
The other matter of "righteousness". No one gains God's favor for their own good deeds because Scripture is clear that no one is righteous, seeks God, or can merit God's favor. It is the righteousness of Christ every elect person must have to be justified before God. But if we are dead in our sin and rebels against God, not wanting to obey Him at all when unregenerated, how can anyone turn to God to be saved unless God performs in us what is needed to do such a repentance of turning to God to be saved.
God is not capricious or arbitrary in His election because to be that way would be sinful. Nor is He a "respecter of persons" (such as deciding "I will only elect men" or some other aspect He finds in a person) because that would be sinful, too. God is just and righteous. Therefore His reasons for electing who He does in hidden in His internal counsel in the persons of the Godhead. We are not given the reason why He chooses some and not others in Scripture. But it does say in Romans 9 that it is not according to someone doing anything good or evil such as with Jacob and Esau, or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it.
Thanks for responding to my post. I always am glad that you "press into" what people post to get more clarity or to engage in discussion of differing ideas on a topic.
This is a highly debated topic amongst true believers which heavily rely on the nature of God and the way he displays his Love and mercy to a lost world.
Will talk with you later, preparing for the cold front coming our way.
Well, let's all pray that this storm is much milder than forecast and that God would help those who are at risk from the elements.
Just got done feeding my grandbaby, Rose. she is going on strike to be spoon fed any purees right now. So we are dipping strips of toast in the puree and she will eat it then. She somehow learned to shake her head (I think) to say "no". How do such young ones learn that body language when not taught? She also has decided she needs to smell the food before putting in her mouth. We did not teach her that either. So curious what is acquired almost innately. She likes to watch football with Grandpa and have me play with her on the floor. We are really enjoying being with her every day!
I. too, love the cold and snow as long as I do not need to drive anywhere. We usually get some snow each year here in the Puget Sound Region. Some years we get over a foot and that usually leads to lots of troubles with snow melting and refreezing on roads. I remember growing up being able to go out on the frozen lake a few blocks from my home with friends and visiting other friends we knew who live around the lake by crossing it or going along the ice at the shore from home to home. Sme people ice skated on the lake. Back then, we would usually have a few weeks of really cold temperature straight and the lake surface would be frozen to 6-8 inches. That hasn't been the case here for some time. It seems our region is in a warming period. It will cycle back to colder winters again, I am sure, but maybe not while I am still alive here. The memories of these cold times are really pleasant to consider.
I will continue to pray for those in this storm's alley.
Since we know that Scripture reveals God's right and authority and power and prerogative to do as He pleases and we know that whatever He pleases to do is always holy, good, righteous, and pure, we must admit that He is free to determine the judgment and curse of sin for sinners according to His wisdom, not ours. And we must admit that He is free to show favor to whomever He pleases and to withhold it from whomever He pleases. ( Exodus 33:19; Romans 9:15).
God alone determines what is morally right and wrong. He alone decides how He will deal with sin, evil, and wickedness in His creation. He alone decided that He will unconditionally redeem those He has chosen before creation to receive His mercy, grace, and favor. He alone determined that those who are unredeemed sinners are under eternal condemnation and recipients of His unmitigated wrath. In all of these determinations, God is just, right, and sovereign.
On its own, that Truth certainly stands firm without question. But the question that arises in my mind is: if that's all we had to go on, then God is indiscriminate in granting His Favor, Mercy, & Graciousness, and by extension, those not receiving that Love are consigned to complete estrangement from Him & His Salvation for no fault of their own since that was already His Will for them. To deal with such a thought & undergirding it with John 3:16 for example, that God loved the world (of sinners), I've always believed that there was something behind God's election of people, that caused Him to show or withhold favor to some & not others. Maybe this thought of mine goes outside the purvue of your submissions, but wanted to share, as you've invited comments.
As an example, & this would particularly be of interest to ex-military, our drill sergeant asked us to form a single line before him, with the tallest men at the ends, descending to the shorter ones in the center. From the left, each guy had to shout out numbers from 1, 2, etc. Then the command for only the odd numbers to take two steps forward (always had that one who forgot his number). And then with the two lines of men before him, the command given to turn right. What we had now were two lines of men that still maintained the height order that the sergeant wanted & without any other requirement (i.e. not character or expertise-based). This then would be an authority figure who randomly elected each one to a position in the squad, without any pre-knowledge or pre-qualification.
Should we understand God to also be so indiscriminate in selection, randomly appointing some to receive His Favor, others not?
Pt. 2
With this said. the dynamics of God executing His will and purposes in History sovereignly and the freedom man has to choose these things all on his own according to what he desires most in a given situation is a paradox we probably won't understand this side of paradise. But we can know that God is so much greater that any of us and is able to have these two things occur simultaneously without God sinning against Himself or His creation and without forcing man to do something he does not freely will. Both exist, but only God truly knows the whole of it, we know in part.
I know that anyone who comes to desire to be saved and believes the Gospel, putting faith in Jesus and trusting God accomplish the work of salvation IS elected to salvation before God created anything. But the only way one can come to desire ad believe these things is because of the work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate us, giving us a desire to be saved and faith to believe. It is not of ourselves, but of God completely as a result of God choosing to have mercy on us, favor us, and be gracious to us.
Thank you for responding to what I posted. I value feedback, especially from you because you are so sincere and respectful.
In Romans 9:15,18, we read of the selection of Jacob & his descendants over Esau & his, that "the election of God might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (v11); i.e. through Sarah & not Hagar. And v18: where Pharoah's heart was hardened by God in the matter of the Israelites departure from Egypt. These examples serve to show that God indeed has every right to do with us according to His Purposes. But how should this be understood when referring to the sinful condition of the human heart and its need for salvation, given the Holy Character of God? Can we expect that God will apply the same conditions of Election as seen in those examples: Moses' standing before God; the descendency of His special people through Isaac & Jacob; & using a heathen ruler to accomplish His Will, when the very essence of His Offer & Provision of His Salvation through His Son is bathed in Holy Love & Mercy for all, for all have sinned?
May I intervene in your discusion with GiGi about the "elected" people? It is true that God selects people for salvation. But why does God select some persons over some other? The story of Jacob and Esau gives us the answer.
Romans 10-15, "10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
, 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
God selected Jacob over Esau not of works. actually both men were not born yet, but due to His grace. But how is that grace is granted to somebody? The lives of both men show the answer. Jacod wanted to receive the promises given to Abraham, Esau thought those promises were not of any value so he sold them to Jacob for some food, similarly Judas sold Jesus for some money. They both gave away the most valuable thing in the world for something useless, they completely humiliated God and His promises. Jacob didn't do any work so that the promises given to Abraham to be given to him, but simply believed in God's promises and went for them, Esau didn't. So God who knows beforehand what both men will do in the future selected Jacob. Just think if God selected Esau. How it would seem to us that God selects somebody who doesn't believe in Him and humiliates His promises? Not possible, isn't it? So God selects people according to how they will stand infront the salvation He offers to people through Jesus. It says somewhere that the will of God is that ALL people will be saved, but not everybody believes in Christ, so they are not selected.
Brother Giannis. Always glad to hear from you & receive your understanding of the Word of God. This subject of election I have temporarily laid aside, as I await GiGi's commentary on it specifically, as she continues with her subject of God's Attributes/Character which I've appreciated very much.
But since you've raised it here, and cited Romans 9:9-16 in respect of Esau & Jacob, I also referred to this Scripture in my response as you've seen. My emphasis was on the fact that God's Sovereignty in Election in this case was based wholly on His choosing the descendency of Israel, His chosen people, and NOT for the salvation of their souls: each one in Israel, along with Isaac, Jacob, Esau & all of Israel, were still responsible before God for their faith, obedience, & devotion. So, there would be many in Israel, then & now, who would be rejected by God for salvation in spite of their Election, receiving the Law & Promises. Indeed, "not all Israel which are of Israel" ( Romans 9:4-6).
I understand from what you've shared here, that you too believe in the "foreknowledge of God" in His election of those to be saved. Romans 8:29,30 and 1 Peter 1:2 particularly reveal this Truth. Now, I realize that some have 'reinterpreted' 'Foreknowledge' (Gk. prognosis) to be in relation to His Sovereign Plan without any factor affecting it (whether from man or God Himself): i.e. He simply chooses & it happens. Whereas, I believe, and please correct me if I'm mistaken, that 'Foreknowledge' in the New Testament refers to the prior knowledge of God, particularly seen in His Omniscience and Sovereign Plan. It implies God's prior knowledge of all events, all individuals, of all time, and quite often in the context of His redemptive purposes for mankind. This term is used to express the concept that God, in His infinite Wisdom, knows all things before they happen and has a predetermined plan for creation and salvation according to that knowledge. To Page 2.
And you're correct about 2 Peter 3:9 & of course, John 3:16,17. How could we speak of a loving God Who has 'suffered long with a wholly sinful & depraved world, & yet not be willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'? And this verse could not be applied solely to the elect whom God will save, and not the world of sinners, because He would know that according to His Plan of Election, that the Elect would definitely be saved & could never perish into everlasting fire - for that is not His Will & Plan for His Elect. It therefore must mean that God is giving the world time to hear the Gospel, be convicted by His Holy Spirit, repent, & be saved - and this salvation & rebirth they receive reveals God's Election for them; and yes, God already knew they would be saved & those who would refuse His Son. GBU.
It does make any difference whether we talk about Israel or the church when we refer to "selection". Both were selected, for different reasons but with the same way. Israel for bringing the Savior into the world and the church for bringing the Savior all over the world.
Has God chosen Israel? Actually the answer is that God didn't chose but actually created Israel through Abraham. So all Israel through the centuries was invited/selected to participate in His plan to bring the Savior on earth but not everybody was willing to participate. Everybody in that nation was selected but not everybody accepted that invitation. It says somewhere that (in my words) many are invited but few are selected. Why would God invite somebody whom He wouldn't want to save? Here the free will of people comes into account.
Similarly Judas was selected and invited to be an apostle but he didn't guard his heart and eventually loved money more than Jesus, and we know his end.
If God selects someone for any reason other than knowing beforehand their attitude towards His gospel, then He would had been an unrighteous God. And we know He is not. Jesus has revealed to us everything we need to know about God, His character, His attitudes, etc
It seems that was already in God's Mind & Plan that He would 'create' a special people (as you mentioned), & that would happen coming out from the people of the world; and according to His Oath made to Israel's forefathers, setting His Love upon them. God could have chosen any people, but was it just a random selection/chance that the lot fell on Abraham & his progeny? Or did God already know that Abraham would be the one to obey the call & leave everything behind in obedience, in love & servitude to the Living God? Or, could God have selected a dozen possible men from the world & pick the one who showed the greatest propensity to obey & follow Him? We could have many options, but without God's Omniscience being at the forefront in His Elective Program, to me, nothing else seems to fit for understanding (to some degree) the mysterious workings of God.
I can understand your query on this topic of God being free to favor whomever He wishes and to not favor whomever He does not.
We see God speaking this way to Moses in Exodus 33:19 when Moses asked to see God's glory and also in Romans 9:18.
I will speak on this more when I get to the topic of election, but for this post I will say that I don't think we really know why God chooses the way He does in election and in extending His grace and mercy to some to save the elect and not to others. But I do believe that everyone who is not elected is not condemned so much because God determined it to be so (which is strict determinism) but rather stand condemned because they freely chose to sin against God as we all have done and are therefore completely responsible for being vessels of wrath as Romans 9 states. However, the elect were chosen by God before creation and before any of us had done anything good or evil, as Jacob and Esau are given as an example in Romans 9.
I can't truly say why God chose you or me or anyone who is given faith by God to believe the Gospel and place our faith in Jesus alone for salvation. But I do believe that our election is not because God looked forward I history to see that we would choose to believe these things on our own because Paul speaks clearly in Romans that no one is righteous or seeks God or can please God, being dead in sin and blind to the gospel of grace. Although God does know all things past present and future and works history out according to His perfect, wise, and holy will, pleasure, and plan for creation. This does not mean that He is the cause of all things that happen, but that He is sovereign in whatever comes about in history as a whole and in individual lives. He brings about circumstances to affect people for His purposes and allows or disallows events according to this same wisdom and will. But this is not determinism because every person chooses freely their actions, words, and motives . see Pt. 2
What I can say for certain is that I am so thankful that God has chosen me to receive His mercy and grace for my salvation!. Such a beautiful way to save us. It is all of God and none of me! We can never boast about our faith, our righteousness or having "chosen Jesus" because He clearly said that He chose us, not us choosing Him when addressing the disciples and that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them to Christ our Lord. We are recipients of the greatest gift God can give us and we do not deserve it. But how glorious is His way of saving the elect!
John 3:16 says "Whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) shall be saved and not be condemned." The "whosoever are those elected by God for salvation and it is He who makes it happen for us through Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.
Thank you!
Carleton
There's an invitation to ALL!
Whosoever Thirst. There's the free will of man and the foreknowledge of God playing a role in receiving this free Gift.
Blessings
Thanks for revisiting this discussion.
I would like to touch on something you said but may have not meant to.
Gigi, You stated "And we must admit that God is free to show FAVOR to whomever He pleases and to withhold it from whomever He pleases. .
I believe we can see a glimpse of Gods Judgment Justified by Righteousness in Genesis and throughout the Bible.
Here's one example.
Genesis 18:22-33 We see God works his Judgment off his Righteousness. He's faithful in doing that and we can expect that as did Abraham!
Verses 22-25.
"And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: SHALL NOT THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH DO RIGHT?
There is a pre-condition has to be met here to escape. "One would have to be "RIGHTEOUS"
God didn't decide to say "Oh let me go make or elect to make Lot righteous before I destroy the place.
God is sovereign and can do as he pleases so Abraham reasoned with God understanding his nature as one who judge in Righteousness!
God answers Abraham off of that basis.
Verse 26) "And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes"
The free gift is Christ and it comes by faith! Paul says in Romans 1:16-17. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
God's election is Not Initiated by favor.
Blessings
I am glad to respond to you on this topic. Please read what I posted to Chris and what I post to you here will follow that post to Chris.
In using the word favor, I am not speaking of favoritism, but biblically as it is used in Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:18. God's favor is God's good pleasure extended to undeserving creatures. Hope that clears that question up a bit for you.
The other matter of "righteousness". No one gains God's favor for their own good deeds because Scripture is clear that no one is righteous, seeks God, or can merit God's favor. It is the righteousness of Christ every elect person must have to be justified before God. But if we are dead in our sin and rebels against God, not wanting to obey Him at all when unregenerated, how can anyone turn to God to be saved unless God performs in us what is needed to do such a repentance of turning to God to be saved.
God is not capricious or arbitrary in His election because to be that way would be sinful. Nor is He a "respecter of persons" (such as deciding "I will only elect men" or some other aspect He finds in a person) because that would be sinful, too. God is just and righteous. Therefore His reasons for electing who He does in hidden in His internal counsel in the persons of the Godhead. We are not given the reason why He chooses some and not others in Scripture. But it does say in Romans 9 that it is not according to someone doing anything good or evil such as with Jacob and Esau, or because some unregenerated people will choose to be righteous due to their faith in God because they CANNOT have faith in God unless God graces them with it.
Thanks for responding to my post. I always am glad that you "press into" what people post to get more clarity or to engage in discussion of differing ideas on a topic.
Blessings to you tonight and always.
This is a highly debated topic amongst true believers which heavily rely on the nature of God and the way he displays his Love and mercy to a lost world.
Will talk with you later, preparing for the cold front coming our way.
Blessings
Keep warm and well during this winter storm. Does Georgia get into the freezing temperatures often?
Yes, it gets down below freezing here, It just doesn't last long.
Just got done feeding my grandbaby, Rose. she is going on strike to be spoon fed any purees right now. So we are dipping strips of toast in the puree and she will eat it then. She somehow learned to shake her head (I think) to say "no". How do such young ones learn that body language when not taught? She also has decided she needs to smell the food before putting in her mouth. We did not teach her that either. So curious what is acquired almost innately. She likes to watch football with Grandpa and have me play with her on the floor. We are really enjoying being with her every day!
We're praying for safe roads to travel on but for the most part I enjoy the cold weather.
We're not getting snow but the roads may have ice on them which I worry about.
I. too, love the cold and snow as long as I do not need to drive anywhere. We usually get some snow each year here in the Puget Sound Region. Some years we get over a foot and that usually leads to lots of troubles with snow melting and refreezing on roads. I remember growing up being able to go out on the frozen lake a few blocks from my home with friends and visiting other friends we knew who live around the lake by crossing it or going along the ice at the shore from home to home. Sme people ice skated on the lake. Back then, we would usually have a few weeks of really cold temperature straight and the lake surface would be frozen to 6-8 inches. That hasn't been the case here for some time. It seems our region is in a warming period. It will cycle back to colder winters again, I am sure, but maybe not while I am still alive here. The memories of these cold times are really pleasant to consider.
I will continue to pray for those in this storm's alley.
I'm just preparing for some job related issues heading in tomorrow also finishing up on a home project.
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