Revelation
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That in turn led to accepting to doctrines of Jezebel . Which in turn led to the Balamites . Prophesying for money .
The church of which I am a part ,is in fact a prodigal church and has been since the reformation .
Where sound doctrine and biblical authority once again germinated and overcame the traditions of man.
I'm not sure we have travelled far .
For while we justifiably celebrate being " Born again " and give glory to God . That is but getting out of Egypt . Saved then by the Word of God the blood of a lamb and the power of God . A no people becoming A people .
But if you listen carefully we have made ' the promised land ' heaven and Jordon death .
And the wandering in the wilderness for 40 years the Christian norm.
When in fact it only took them just over two years to reach the promised land .
Egypt is but a type of the world and pharaoh the devil . Having been delivered from that " cruel bondage" we have forgotten that not only were we saved from but saved to! And that crossing the wilderness was but ' boot camp' .
Where we learn to live not by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God ".
Did not Paul warn the church not to be like them who " entered not in because of unbelief"?
Unbelief is not just not believing God its believing another message .
Did not Eve do just as much? And did not Paul express his grave concern of the church being as deceived as Eve?
When Jesus " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
Does not mean that hell or the devil are giving the church a hard time but will not prevail .
For gates attack no one they are but the weakest points of a city wall and the most heavily defended .
It is the gates of hell that are in trouble for it is the church the Lord is building that is doing the ' troubling'.
We are living in the Laodocian age . Of a church that thinks it is rich increased in goods and in need of nothing .
Yet in Gods eyes is poor wretched and blind and in need of eye salve .
Alongside this church is the Philadelphian church that in its own eyes is poor but in Gods eyes is rich .
There is but one church which is His body . There is then but one door .
How is it then that after the resurrection No door was a barrier to the Lord . But here he is knocking on the door of his own church and is unwilling ( you cannot say unable) to enter .
Some may think their church is the only church to which all must belong to be saved others they are part of that church which is his body and claim they are saved . The fact remains the Lord is outside knocking . While all those inside think he is inside?
God is everywhere for He is indeed omnipresent . Then who is outside? It is the Spirit of God .
The knocking on the door must be a call to repentance to the whole church . To all who are inside .
The promise however is only to those " who have ears to hear " not only that but who also " open the door " to THEM is the promise given.
Even as John 3:16 is a call to the whole world to repent but the promise is only given to those who do and believe .( in the biblical sense) .
The prosperity message ,the plethora of false prophets and apostles parading about Christendom shows we are in the last days .
If when Jesus on the way to Golgotha said to some women weeping for him " if they do this to the master when the wood is green,what will they do when the wood is dry?
Hebrews 1:1 states " hath in these last days spoken to us by His Son"
If 2000 years ago it was " the last days " then truly the wood was green . How much the more is the wood now dry and ready for the fire?
LUKEWARMNESS.
Here I'm skipping alone to C H Spurgeons closing statements.
"This is my closing word, there is something for us to do in this matter. We must examine ourselves, and we must confess the fault if we have declined in grace. And then we must not talk about setting the church right, we must pray for grace each one for himself, for the text does not say, "If the church will open the door," but "If any man hear my voice and open the door." It must be done by individuals: the church will only get right by each man getting right. Oh, that we might get back into an earnest zeal for our Lord's love and service, and we shall only do so by listening to his rebukes, and then falling into his arms, clasping him once again, and saying, "My Lord and my God." That healed Thomas, did it not? Putting his fingers into the print of the nails, putting his hand into the side, that cured him. Poor, unbelieving, staggering Thomas only had to do that, and he became one of the strongest of believers, and said, "My Lord and my God." You will love your Lord till your soul is as coals of juniper if you will daily commune with him. Come close to him, and once getting close to him, never go away from him anymore. The Lord bless you, dear brethren, the Lord bless you in this thing."
I believe as brothers in Christ and to be likeminded and of one accord when we come together, and one is teaching or preaching amongst an audience, The person speaking is representing all of us in the eyes of the audience.
We shouldn't be stuck in the middle or silent if this person is in line with scripture or not.
Offer them help! They should want it and if not it's not their place to hold back truth.
In this you can't be partially picking and choosing what should be addressed or who needs to be addressed.
This is an area where we are fundamentalist in doctrine, but liberal in our walk and this is where lukewarmness is displayed without wealth playing a role.
Pergamos next-
We can't help but notice the silent exodus of people slipping out the back doors of many churches almost unnoticed: attracted but not retained; interested but not inserted into fellowship; touched but not transformed. They looked in briefly but were disappointed in what they saw. We also notice that many serious believers shun the label "Christian"; they meet during the week in study groups but have not found a Sunday fellowship they find fruitful or challenging.
It is relevant to recognize that our present concept of "church" is a product derived from 4th century politics. It ought to be obvious to even the casual observer of history that the real story of the church is not the one recorded in secular history.4 Who were the Waldensians? The Lollards? The Stundists? The Anabaptists? The Priscillians? The Bogomilians? Petrobusians? Patarenians?
These names were given by their enemies to those who claimed only the name of Christ, and who were prepared to suffer for His cause rather than submit to those man-made traditions that they believed contradicted the Word of God. These were independent fellowships that were outlawed and persecuted. Those intrepid believers, "of whom the world was not worthy," were not only persecuted by civil authorities, they were denounced, defamed, and decimated by the professing church.
While many of us may have some awareness of the history of tensions between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants, it may come as a shock to discover that Protestant leadership also persecuted deviant groups who attempted to adhere to Biblical doctrines.5 And some still do. As we approach the "end times," our Lord admonished us: " Revelation 3:19-21"
Notice that the Lord is outside the Laodicean door, knocking! And His call is to the individual. How insightful
See Chuck Missler Part 3.
As a reminder these posts are in view of a revival in the Church to be a light to any nation with 1 Peter 4:17 and Revelation Ch 2 and Ch 3 in mind.
Here is an article from the late Chuck Missler.
Chuck Missler Part 1.
These seven letters constitute "report cards" of the performance of each church, containing commendations and admonitions regarding needed correction: "good news" as well as "bad news." And, apparently, each church is surprised. Those who thought they were doing well, were not. Those who thought they weren't doing so well were encouraged and doing better than they knew. (Each of these letters gives us insight and food for introspection.)
However, two of them have no good news at all: Sardis and Laodicea. Sardis is dead; "Christian" in name only.2 Unfruitful denominationalism, apparently.
Regarding Laodicea, Jesus is really sick of "lukewarm" Christianity. He is about to vomit: " Revelation 3:16"
They think they are "rich and in need of nothing," but are actually "miserable, poor, blind, and naked." That's about as graphic and antithetical as you can get.
There are many who lay the blame for the astonishing and sinister years of the Holocaust in Germany in the 1940s at the feet of the silent pulpits in Germany. Let's take stock of ourselves: Why is the divorce rate among Christians no better than among unbelievers? Is the "Gospel" preached in your church? Can you even define it? ( 1 Cor 15:1-4). What is the status of Biblical literacy in your fellowship? Is there an effective program underway to improve it? (We could continue to explore the impending enslavement of America, but that's a topic for another article!)
See Chuck Missler part 2.
Now Peter is not talking about judgment as far as salvation goes and I am not getting into that here!
But I would like to draw our attention to a few verses.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Now if any man build upon this foundation GOLD, SILVER, PRECIOUS STONES, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE;
EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST: FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Revelation 3:17-18. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I COUNSEL THEE TO BUY OF ME GOLD TRIED IN THE FIRE, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
LAODICEANS.
Revelation 3:14-20.
This seems to be a prideful group!
"I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;"
( They were spiritually bankrupted and didn't know it.)
Look at the position of our Lord.
Behold, I STAND AT THE DOOR, AND KNOCK: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
The Lord is on the outside calling individuals out.
Being wealthy doesn't put them in their wretchedness, it is the pride behind it.
This type of pride can come by all forms of work of our own hands when void of the Spirit.
The local Church today covets bodies more than they do truth.
Individually we covet Gods glory more than fruit barring.
The door here is a picture of the human heart.
If Christ is not in it our works is wood hay and stubble.
1 Corinthians 3:16-21.
More to come
God bless.
In Revelation 3:5, John gives an exhortation to the church. He says, "He that overcomes, and that's a Present Participle.
To the one who (is) overcoming, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will (not) blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
We are given references to the Old Testament that tell us there's more than one book. ( Exodus 32:32-33, Daniel 12:1-2, 7-10, Psalm 69:28)
There's the book of life which has listed in it everybody that has received human life. And then there's the book of the Lamb, those who belong to Christ.
In the book of life, if a person rejects Christ, their name is removed from the book of life as if they've never been born. They're gone!
But no one is ever blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
If you go back into the Old Testament and you study from those references, it will show you that there's more than one book. And the Jews knew that.
It's not that God has books up there. But it's just a human example or an illustration that God knows everything, all the people that have been born, and all the people that belong to Christ.
He say (I will not) blot out his name out of the book of life. And I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Jesus said that He would do that.
So, our names are entered into the Lamb"s book of life the moment we receive Christ. He will never blot out a believers name from that book. That's how permanent our salvation is. He will never blot our names out of His book!
Principle 3 (cont). I would say that there are verses showing validity of either argument (i.e. all believers are taken out at the Rapture) OR that some may be left behind whose garments are soiled as shown in Revelation 3:4 to be made purified. I have discussed this in more depth in my Revelation commentaries. We certainly do well to "test ourselves to see if we are in the faith" ( 2 Corinthians 13:5) in either event. Revelation 3:11 shows how we may forfeit our rewards at least; and 1 Corinthians 13:12-13 show how we may suffer loss if that happens. I would venture to say that the lack of discussion of the Bema Seat and a lackadaisical attitude in general to considering being in His Presence characterizes todays church in a large part. Naturally; with this attitude hearts become calloused ( Matthew 24:12); and we are also not urgent about fulfilling the Great Commission. The political correctness of today has infiltrated a church already defining doctrinal standards on a much broader road than the straight and narrow delineated by the scriptures. Such events were of course warned about by both Paul and Peter who agonized in prayer over what they knew would come after their demise ( Acts 20:29-31); 2 Peter 2:1).
In short; my point here is that none us should take for granted that we are saved without evidence of fruit; and none of us should rest on our laurels so to speak trusting that we will be raptured out of here. The same idea applies; we are free from our old nature but not free to imbibe once again in the world following our old sin nature. If the Kingdom of heaven isn't within our souls now it certainly won't be later. Whatever is the case with the Rapture itself there is certainly enough wisdom to go around to escape certain events beforehand that can be avoided if we are focusing on being seated in heavenly places ( Ephesians 2:6).
Principle 2: Prophecies related to Second Coming and/or the Rapture.
I would say that despite there being no clear prophetic event showing the date of the Rapture; there certainly are signs of it's imminency; as stated before largely related to the state of the church today. If we are not producing the "salt and light" ( Matthew 5:13-14) that we should then we shouldn't be surprised when the secular society we live in falls apart. I have stated before as well that the basic lack of respect for a covenant marriage bond and subsequent aftermath of divorce and remarriages with the damage incurred has been a largely successful attempt of Satan to push boundaries further in other areas of immorality. As I discussed with someone in church today; the fear of God is something that causes conviction of the nonbeliever if indeed we are walking in the Spirit of God. If we refuse to honor Holiness in our personal lives and create a God (or Christ) in some dumbed down version suiting our imaginations then we are not going to even deserve the blessing of being persecuted and forfeit any resulting reward. Just how far we have gone or whether or not it is actually possible for any large scale revival or repentance is something only God knows.
There are parables relating to the profitable vs. unprofitable servant; and the wise and unwise virgins that at first glance appear to reference the Rapture; but also may have some application for the Second Coming. Since BOTH events are getting closer to appearing we should of course expect that most have reference to both. That gets me into point 3.
Principle Three: Who is actually raptured? Revelation 3:10 and Luke 21:36 certainly give us pause to consider if not individuals that are going to be Raptured; the church typifying people that are going to be taken out when He comes for His bride. The question of whether it is a reward or salvation issue is worth investigating.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
James 4:8
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Revelation 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Acts 3:19
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"
The hour of temptation, "WHICH SHALL COME UPON THE WORLD" is what in scripture is called the great tribulation.
Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I hope this helps.
I will be going further with this topic over another thread.
God bless.
You probably don't need these admonitions. That is a hard saying; how God is impartial. He will bless those who bless Him; and curse those who curse Him. It seems you have a great desire for the Word; and having a husband in the faith; hopefully you are growing as well in the role God has given you in this life. It is the fact that those who are hundredfold that have the greatest rewards is simply God's character being reflected; as well as gaining more "interest" as it were because of heavenly rewards. He who sows in tears will reap in joy. ( Psalm 126:5-6). It goes against the flesh to invest time and energy and finances in ministry for the Lord but we are told that we MUST believe that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him ( Heb. 11:6). These crowns of course extend to those who patiently hope and wait for His coming; those in leadership over the church (held to a higher standard); a special one for martyrs; and several other designations. We may cast our crowns at His feet but as adopted children we have eternal promises and positions. It is hard to say in eternity as compared to the Millennium the differences in rulership; etc. Obviously it is better to be a doorkeeper in the house of God than to be lost and cast out.
It is not taught today how some will make it through the Bema suffering loss getting in as through the fire ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Revelation 3:11 is not taught much either. One of my frequent comments on that is that if I fail I'd better be honored to see someone else exalted due to my lack of service. God will use anyone as a method of spreading salt and light; some sowing others reaping the benefits.
Sad truth today is that there are few who can discern those who are shining as the stars among the masses of confessing Christians ( Daniel 12:3 associated with leading many to righteousness).
Agape; Rich P
Seeing, they see not, and hearing, they hear not.
John 9:39 ...for JUDGEMENT I am come to this world, that they which see not might see; and they which see might be made blind.
John 16:8 And when he is come (the Holy Ghost, Christ the second coming), he will reprove the world of SIN .....
John 16:9 Of SIN, because not on me (the words of Christ).
If creation would only believe God's words, and understand JUDGEMENT, and SIN, and the WRATH of God.
God has blessed you with his understanding, and his grace and his mercy, and a little child shall lead them.
..... Malachi 3: 1 kjv...Behold i send my Messenger that shall prepare the way before ME .Even the Messenger of the Covenant whom ye delight in..Behold he shall come...But who may abide the day of his coming ( 2 nd coming ) Who shall stand when he appears, For he shall be as a REFINERS FIRE AND FULLERS SOAP...A cleansing soap. Chastisment...H.G. FIRE ( the blood of the lamb ) For there is nothin that can cleanse us like his blood....Tho your Sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow...Without his wrath we cannot be made clean...Whom the lord loveth he Chastens with his baptism of the H.G. and Fire ..and the scripture cannot be broken.
If you endure Chastisment God dealeth with you as Sons for what son is he whom the FATHER Chastens not ( his wrath and his love ) ..Whom the Lord Loveth he Chastens .. Hebrews 12 :49...Judgement must began at the house of God which is our hearts and minds..His baptism of the H.G. and fire is our new heart and new spirit....That New Creature which is the manchild the H.G. THAT IS GONNA RULE ALL NATIONS...This is the rapture...Unless ya receive the KINGDOM OF GOD as a lil Child.
,
You've touched on some very good points!
God bless you.
There is not two separate revelations in Revelation, it's one revelation, the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ .......
Revelation is not addressed to the seven churches, but to the angel of the seven churches.
Revelation 2:1 Unto the ANGEL of the church at Ephesus write ....
Revelation 2:8 Unto the ANGEL of the church at Smyrna write .....
Revelation 2:12 Unto the ANGEL of the church at Pergamos write ......
Revelation 2:18 Unto the ANGEL of the church at Thyatira write ....
Revelation 3:1 Unto the ANGEL of the church at Sardis write ......
Revelation 3:7 Unto the ANGEL of the church at Philadelphia write .....
Revelation 3:14 Unto the ANGEL of the church at Laodiceans write .....
Mark !3:24 But in those days (the wrath of God that was poured out on Christ), after the tribulation (that wrath of God, poured out on Christ) , the sun shall be darkened, and the moon (symbolic of Christ) shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall .....
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth .....
Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness (the sun was darkened) over all the earth unto the ninth hour.
And the moon (symbolic of Christ) turned to blood, and covered the sins of creation.
God Bless you in the quest for TRUTH ( John 14:6 ...I AM TRUTH....I AM LIFE)
If you read Revelation you will see that john received two separate revelations. One which was specifically dealing with the seven churches and what would be their fate in the near future.
The second revelation begins in Rev 4:1 and is not specific to the seven churches who are addressed in chapters 2and 3.
We cannot build sound doctrine on assumptions or conjecture so we must not add to what has been said in revelation bearing in mind the warnings for those who add or take away from what has been written in Revelation.
If you read Rev 6:12, onwards, you will see events that correlate with Christ's description of his second coming as recorded in mat 24. which Christ says will happens after the great tribulation. And if you read on down to Rev 6:17 you will see the day of wrath is mentioned. So, the day of wrath happens when Christ returns after the great tribulation. The great tribulation is not the day of wrath.
You will notice the angels recued Lot on the very same day that God poured out his wrath on the unbelievers. There was no delay. And so it will be when Christ returns after the great tribulation. He will send his angels at the sound of the trumpet to gather his elect before pouring out his wrath on the unbelievers. This is the rapture and it happens on the day of wrath.
Hellow Antony.
Although I don't agree with you about the church going through the great tribulation (but this is another topic), I agree with you about those 7 churches in Revelation
Notice. In verse 1:7 says "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia...".
Now Jesus says to John to write His words and send them to those 7 churces. If the churches are symbolic for the history of the church through the ages and not litteral, just imagine say the pastor of Sardis who maybe was doing well in his ministry to receive a message from Jesus telling him that he is dead. He will definately die of heart attack. The pastor of Ephessus? If he had not fallen from his first love to read Jesus telling hin that? Imagine if Philadelphia was not doing well and Jesus congratulated them? How about Antipas the martyr, was he symbolic for something? It is obvious that those churches were litterally existing at that time and Jesus adressed some issues there, He knows they have to be corrected.
But the problem ia always initiating from what Jesus said to Philadelphians."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
But what is it meant by "the world" and "the earth"?
Colossians 1:6 "Which is come unto you, as it is in ALL THE WORLD; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, ...:" also verse 23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Romans 9:17-18 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went INTO ALL THE EARTH, and their words unto ENDS OF THE WORLD
Anthony
So what is meant in those verses when saying the whole world, about every creature under heaven, ends of the world, into all earth,...?
When Paul (and the ancient people) talks about the whole world he primarily means the Roman world, the Roman empire, the west civilized world. Everybody and everything outside that region was not worth to be mentioned of (plus the fact that they had a limited knowledge of the actual size of the earth and the existing nations).
Now what is it that God protected that church from in reality? Maybe a general persecution in the empire, some major catastrophies, some big wars with enemies to Romans? One has to read the history of the late 1st and early 2nd centuary AD to find out.
But to be honest I am wondering, why Jesus included those warnings to those churches in a book written about the end times? Surely He could do it in another way. Is it possible that the actual litteral churches were also a symbol for the church history. Facts do seem to coincide with the actual church history(?). And we also know that in Bible often real events are also a symbol for something else that happened later in the future.
Now about the great tribulation. Christians have so far gone through persecutions and tribulations many many times. Also through harsh times due to wars, famine, physical catastrophies like the rest of the world. But the great tribulation is something else. It is not just a tribulation. It is a tribulation due to God's wrath. It will be caused this time by God, not people. And I cannot think God sends His wrath on earth while His people are still there, to suffer His wrath together with sinners. This is what the scripture says about Noah and Lot. First God took away His people and then sent His wrath to those places. Plus the fact that we now live under Grace. Grace and Wrath do not fit together. First His Grace has to be removed with the rapture of the saints and then His Wrath will be sent to the sinful world.
GBU
Revelation 6:9,10,11, Revelation 17:14-17, James 5:7,
it appears to me that the final martyr of GOD's beloved, will ignite. Like the other events in the written Word.
Hebrews 1:13, Matthew 24, Mark 13,
As a loving Father, HE appears to be balancing the mercy of HIS will, that none should perish of the people; Matthew 18:14, 2Peter 3:1-18, & mercy for HIS children, Hebrews 11:6-40,
Part 2 of my previous reply.
I joined in on this thread without reading the original post. A mistake I made and something I rarely do.
I thought it was centered around Revelation 2 and 3. But after reviewing it during my last reply I realized it was a rebuttal to whoever uses these verses to pitch their
pre-trib view.
If I would have payed attention I would have never engaged.
However I've engaged and just about ready to disengage.
Before I go I would like to mention you said something to Brother Chris that puzzled me.
Your quote;
So, I believe that Christ's reassurance to the Philadelphian church was that He would keep them from succumbing to the temptation/trial which was to come.
Temptation/trial which was to come?
You put this trial in their present time.
But the phrase "WHICH WAS TO COME" puts this future.
It makes no sense if the phrase is used if he's talking about a Temptation/trial that always existed.
Look what Jesus says about this temptation when answering his disciples.
Let's pick up the context here in Matthew 24:3
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, WHEN shall these things be? AND WHAT SHALL BE THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD?"
( Three questions)
My focus is on the "when" and the description of this time period.
For lack of character space click on the link.
Matthew 24:14-20
Matthew 24:21 "FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:22-28
Matthew 24:29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30.
Revelation 3:10 says he would keep them from THE HOUR. ( That time )
Revelation 3:11 Parallels with the answers given in Matthew 24:29-30.
God bless.
Thanks for your breakdown of Luke 18:8. However I was just pulling out one word out of the text and that word is "Speedily". My attempt was to show this is the word used in Revelation 1:1 when you used that verse and presented it as a time line.
Quoting you:
So, we see the timing being set for what is to be written to the seven churches, End quote.
My argument is shortly doesn't present an Era.
The word Speedily in Luke 18:8 is the same word used in Revelation 1:1 also in many other places in scripture.
The way you interpreted the scripture in Luke using word speedily/shortly is the same way you should interpret it in Revelation 1:1.
You stated;
"God is seen to delay UNTIL THE TIME COMES when he will avenge his people AT WHICH TIME HE WILL "THEN" ACT SPEEDILY. end quote.
In Revelation 1:1 it's used the same way
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must Speedily come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
This presents something to happen fast when the time comes.
You asked why do I believe the 7 Churches in Revelation represent the complete Church throughout history?
Anthony I disclosed that in my earlier post and gave my reasoning.
I also said Revelation 1:19 outlines the book and that outline is explained in my post.
I said he who has an ear speaks to all!
You said "no it don't."
I said Revelation 1:3 presents the coming events as prophesy .
You said "no it don't."
This can go on and on.
It surprises me you never heard of this view considering you opened the thread with this-
"Some people believe that in Rev 3:10 Jesus is saying that if we believe in him that he will protect us from the great tribulation and they use this to support the notion that the rapture will happen before the great tribulation."
Also considering this is a widely held view.
I have one more post.
Give me a minute.
God bless.
It's important to read Luke 18:8 in it's proper context. The context for v8 is given in v7.
God is seen to delay until the time comes when he will avenge his people at which time he will then act speedily. This will happen when Jesus returns, at which time, he will send His angels to gather his elect on the very same day that he will pour out his wrath on the unbelievers.
It will be just like it was when God sent his angels to rescue Lot before pouring out his wrath on Sodom. The angels removed Lot from Sodom on the very same day that God poured out his wrath on Sodom.
Please tell me why you believe the 7 Churches in Revelation represent the complete Church throughout history?
The text makes no such claim and to say that it does is to misrepresent what Christ has said.
So, I'm interested to know where you sourced this erroneous belief.
PS Revelation 1:19, doesn't give the chronological order of the book of Revelation, because in the very first chapter we see that Revelation 1:7 points to the return of Jesus Christ which is an example of how Revelation is not written in strict chronological order.
As Christians, the doctrine we hold must stand up to biblical scrutiny and must be provable from the scriptures otherwise we risk
being deceived by false doctrine.
I look forward to your reply.
When Christ says, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation," He is not saying that the Philippian church would be kept from Satan's onslaught.
. "Accounts report that eleven Christians from Philadelphia were martyred alongside Polycarp in 156 AD."
In fact, it is often obedient Christians who are most tested in the world because they have a strong testimony and will not yield to the devil.
The apostles are a good example of this because accounts state that most of them suffered violent deaths when they were martyred for their testimony for Christ.
So, I believe that Christ's reassurance to the Philadelphian church was that He would keep them from succumbing to the temptation/trial which was to come.
Did you know that every two hours a Christian is martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ. So even today we see that faithful Christians suffer persecution. So, it is a mistake to conclude that the present-day church will not suffer from the devil's onslaught.
I believe that we are entering a time when the persecution of Christians will become more widespread, and we need to pray that Christ will keep us through the coming trial so that our faith doesn't fail.
Our salvation as Christians is not salvation from trials and tribulation. To the contrary, Paul says that "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Throughout history, true Christians have been martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ.
It is through enduring tribulation that our faith is tested and approved to the glory of Jesus Christ.
Yet in Revelation 3:10, the warning wasn't only to the Church but that the whole world would be affected at this time. Maybe the 'world' applied only to those parts where the Roman Empire had its reach, which included western & southern Europe, northern parts of Africa & west towards Assyria. If so, then I agree that within that empire there were several emperors who were exceedingly cruel to Christians and the churches would have faced much persecution; but this Church would have been spared because of their faithfulness to the Lord.
But if the 'world' included all nations then and now (as the verse seems to suggest), the reference in this verse would have both a present application (for the Churches then) & a future application, which would be a specific testing of where the world's allegiance & faith lie. As that Church remained faithful and was kept safe from that time of testing, the Church today (the true Body of Christ) would also be kept from Satan's onslaught that is to come. So from that verse, I see the salvation of the Lord for those who are truly His, keeping themselves unspotted from the world.
I agree there were local Churches, and these letters was written to them. I believe these 7 Churches represents the complete Church throughout history with 7 representing completeness. #7 is significant throughout scripture.
Also, by what is omitted, (Several other Churches such as the Church in Antioch, Rome, certainly the Church in Jerusalem. And many others founded in scripture.)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants' things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
" Things which must shortly come to pass" cannot be designated to just chapters 1,2 and 3. The word "shortly" used here I believe is the same word used in Luke 18:8 "I tell you that he will avenge them SPEEDILY. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? (Speedily) is the same word used here in Revelation.
Vs 3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this "PROPHECY" and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (This is a prophecy.) so it takes you beyond a local application.
I'm not trying to change your view; I'm just presenting mine.
And as I mentioned I believe Revelation 1:19 gives the chronological order of the book of Revelation. (All 22 chapters.)
The messages are a composite, and they had a direct msg to the Churches in Johns Day, and all 7 letters are appliable for us and all churches throughout church history as well the individual. And yes, the text is structured that way.
Ephesus represents the Apostolic Church; Laodicea represents the Apostate Church. I'm running out of space, perhaps I will share more on "The view I hold and why I hold it later.
However, I'm sure you've heard of this viewpoint so I'm not trying to sell it.
God bless.
I do agree with your analysis on this text. I believe it is pretty clear, as you stated that these words of Jesus are to the churches that existed at that time in history in Asia and specifically so. I do not believe that this texts speaks to the church eras through the centuries, either. But, as you also stated, we can learn from these words to these churches for our congregations in our own times. Thank you for a very good and measured response on this subject. Appreciated.