Revelation
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Jesus is our advocate; and able to intercede to the Father on our behalf so that our prayers ultimately will be effectively in sync with His will for us and be answered accordingly. We are also in prayer as warriors ( Ephesians 6); as others are going through like tempations and trials ( 1 Peter 5:9). That is something needing to be emphasized; as a runner trains through exercise; we need to be vigilant in prayer for others as it helps to strengthen us as well as get our mind off our own troubles.
To effectively fight we need to actively resist sin; and check ourselves frequently. Any legal access by sin exposes a weak spot in our armor which the enemy is; no doubt looking forward to taking advantage of.
The truth is; as I see it there are few believers who take Satan seriously enough. We only have victory through Christ to effectively fight through the sword of the Spirit. As the other comment suggested this is hostile territory; another concept it seems few seem to grasp today. Remember though if you are being assaulted; it is because you are a threat to the powers of darkness; which I would say few believers are when it is easy to distract them with the endless sources of entertainment today.
It is Agape love; which gives you the strength; joy and victory over an enemy that seeks to steal; kill and destroy.
I call the enemy an "equal opportunity destroyer." He will use any means necessary; our own fears; other people; circumstances; ailments; etc. to try to stop others from hearing the Good News. He cannot stop the Lord's plans ultimately; and cannot take our rewards either unless we forfeit it ourselves ( Revelation 3:11).
Let us be as the Philadelphia church which has "little strength" but endures until He comes; and is able to enter through the open door at the Rapture.
Agape; Rich P
Rewards in heaven
Genesis 15:1 is the only scripture I have found that shows that God Himself is our reward. Certainly it is enough; and will be enough for those saved even without receiving rewards to know that He fulfilled what was needed on their behalf despite only getting to heaven as though "through the fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Hebrews 11:6 states that we MUST believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That is part of the nature of God; and should help us desire to see our brothers and sisters exalted and rejoice in the small ways God can use our service to help build them up in the faith. The admonition of Revelation 3:11 should also keep us pursuing the Lord until the end as we can lose our rewards to another if not careful.
I have probably discussed before several pasages on the type of rewards due to particular service which we do based (hopefully) on our gifts and calling. The reader can look up passages related to faithful preaching of the Word (and the more stringent judgments attached to that responsibility); those who patiently await His coming as Malachi 3 discusses with the book of remembrance and other verses talking about patient endurance until the end; and of course rewards for the martyrs for Christ.
These would no doubt represent levels of authority in some respect in heaven; and I have also brought up the verses in regard to ruling few or many cities; also we could look at 1 Cor. 5:41 for that. We should also note the reward of the evangelist those who lead many to righteousness shining as the stars in Daniel 12:3. That could also refer to end time events as with that of the great multitude martyred seen in heaven in association with the 144,000 taken from the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9).
To be continued.
What we often don't account for is God creating something new in those who are not yet in the sheep fold. His steadfastness means that He can use someone else when we aren't diligent as Revelation 3:11 warns us. It also means that the random mess which is our lives with the world at large can be part of a larger picture that only He; the Master artist can conceive in its finished form. I say this realizing that the opposite being true. There are some who may appear to be steadfast in their walk who fall away at a later date. Therefore we shouldn't ever place our confidence in men; let God be true and every man a liar. (look it up my data is overspent so it is hard to find the corresponding verses on a search).
As for those who are mentioned in Hebrews 11; the next chapter makes it clear that they are looking for a new country; not something currently established on the earth. Such are many promises; not to be fulfilled in their visible manifestations at least until the future Kingdom rule and eternity. This serves as a fair warning to us with scriptures like Jesus had for the Pharisees that they already "had their reward." Therefore; we are not to lose the baby with the bathwater so to speak; God's promises can be held as true for financial purposes that ultimately fulfill His will. I have seen this in a recent example I mentioned before of a missinary looking to procure funds for building a hospital. This means; of course we should be proactive ourselves as being a blessing for someone else; especially if we are looking for the same thing ourselves. God wants us to be a cheerful giver; and what we do for others is reflected on what the Lord will perform in our lives. That is not some esoteric statement or karma it is God's principle. Casting our bread on the waters; therefore brings it back sevenfold.
Looking to His promises we of course should adhere to Psalm 51 and have a contrite and humble spirit as David did.
I would like to say that I don't do any grumbling or complaining; but alas then I would be lying. Thankfully anything but blasphemy against the Spirit can be forgiven. As Jesus pointed out to the self-righteous Pharisees; these bad fruits come from within. And 2 Peter 2:21 makes it clear that it is better not to have known the truth than to become reprobate. The blood of Christ is our only hope as Jeremiah 17:9 shows how sick the heart is.
There are Post Millennialists who dispute this; but I don't believe anyone from the church age who is a believer will be at the Great White Throne Judgment. I DO have the opinion that since the verse indicates that those who aren't in the Book of Life are going to the lake of fire; there is room for those who physically survive the Millennial period to go through that as saved people and hence be translated into heaven without dying.
In any event; 1 Corinthians 3:15 indicates that one can make it into heaven and suffer loss. That would be analogous to losing rewards as Revelation 3:11 warns. Paul indicates how we run for the prize. Only a few gain great rewards; as would be indicated by those making 100 fold as opposed to 30 fold returns or others ( Mark 4:20). We should not be confined to just the saved and lost divisions when scripture gives us admonitions for certain crowns that those who persevere; are martyred or are pastors as well as other situations are given for faithfulness.
Matthew 6:19-21 shows us that our treasure is to be in heaven. And that means that He must trust us with earthly riches as well ( Luke 16:10-12) as a test; a prerequisite for heavenly riches. Our brothers in Christ that we support in the ministry will be able to enjoy the harvest with us (see John 4:37). That and personal witnessing are components of fulfilling the Great Commission to finish well.
These verses would apply:
1 Corinthians 15:52
Revelation 3:10
1 Thessalonians 5:9
Luke 12:40
Hope this helps!
The Davidic Covenant centers on several key promises that are made to David. First, God reaffirms the promise of the land that He made in the first two covenants with Israel (the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants). This promise is seen in 2 Samuel 7:10, "I will provide a place for my people Israel and will plant them so that they can have a home of their own and no longer be disturbed. Wicked people will not oppress them anymore." God then promises that David's son will succeed him as king of Israel and that this son (Solomon) would build the temple. This promise is seen in 2 Samuel 7:12-13, " I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name."
But then the promise continues and expands: "I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever" (verse 13), and "Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever" (verse 16). What began as a promise that David's son Solomon would be blessed and build the temple turns into something different-the promise of an everlasting kingdom. Another Son of David would rule forever and build a lasting House. This is a reference to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, called the Son of David in Matthew 21:9.
The promise that David's "house," "kingdom," and "throne" will be established forever is significant because it shows that the Messiah will come from the lineage of David and that He will establish a kingdom from which He will reign. The covenant is summarized by the words "house," promising a dynasty in the lineage of David; "kingdom," referring to a people who are governed by a king; "throne," emphasizing the authority of the king's rule; and "forever," emphasizing the eternal and unconditional nature of this promise to David and Israel.
Davidic Covenant; Jeremiah 23:5; 30:9; Isaiah 9:7; 11:1; Luke 1:32, 69; Acts 13:34; and Revelation 3:7.
Next.
See Fulfillments.
According to 1 Corinthians 15:22 at the last trump the Lord comes for His church. Some say that Matthew 24:36 is referring to that day that no man knows the day and hour as being the Jewish feast of Trumpets. There could be something to that; with Christ fulfilling the Spring feasts already; namely the Passover lamb sacrificed for us; and the Pentecost ascension which; by the way was always celebrated on the "8th day" of the week.
As my last post indicates; there is little talk today among most professing believers of the Rapture. We see what could be an analogy of a separation or Rapture of some in Luke 12:45 where the watchmen is beaten by his fellow sorkers. There is even some say that same pattern in Song of Solomon 5:7.
Luke 21:36 instructs us to pray that we are worthy to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man. The original language uses the word "agonia" or something to that affect. Clearly; not all believers are praying in such a manner which questions their walk with God as to either their salvation or their position of readiness. I have probably presented some ideas last year as to whether all Christians are raptured or if some have to go through some of the Tribulation. What is certain is that these warnings; along with Revelation 3:10 are for those who are awake and waiting which I contended in my last posting that Malachi 3:16 spoke of.
Whatever our eschatology; fearing God and anticipating His arrival isn't restricted to those who hold a Pretribulational and Premillenial viewpoint. I have fellowshipped with Amillenials and Post Millenials who had more conviction about Christ coming as well as the terrible judgments on the earth than those who claim what I espouse; namely the Rapture followed by the 7 Year Tribulation and a Millennial rule of Christ before the eternal new earth. Even if I could press my viewpoint it isn't worth splitting hairs; we should all look to the scriptures daily.
And Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Our brother Jesse who is regularly seen on these pages, has shown us from the original Greek language, that our reading of this verse should be: "The one, however, having endured to the end, he will be saved" (direct rendering from the Greek). So, this verse doesn't speak of a Christian enduring to the end & then gaining salvation - there are many other verses that suggest otherwise speaking of the believer's security in Christ now; but that if we truly believe & have God's Holy Spirit in us, we WILL endure to the end - no exceptions, because that is the very Nature & Purpose of the Holy Spirit in us "to keep us from falling (away) & to present us faultless before the presence of His Glory..." ( Jude 1:24).
Lukewarm 'Christians' & those who easily & regularly do despite to the Spirit of Grace in their manner of living, desperately need to be saved & secured in the Love of Christ.
In short; I am not sure if arguing all points against the subject is worth it; as it likely won't change any minds. I will submit that some issues are a reward issue; as not all are going to get the prize as in Paul's example; and there are scriptures such as Revelation 3:11 stating that we can lose rewards. The basic idea i that Christ must succeed in bringing all His children to glory as that is part of the Father's plan which cannot be thwarted.
As to another point; yes it is true I have heard from one friend of mine who is an evangelist how his own mother turned away from the faith the last few months of his life; and it is true that his mother in law heard the Gospel for many years during home Bible studies and still never came to saving faith. It is also true that judgment is harsher for those who become reprobate from the faith than those who never believed ( 2 Peter 2:21).
THere are also things related to groups of people which must be carefully interpreted as opposed to individuals. That can skew things in the subject of Predestination; for example or even for those such as I that believe in the 5 points more or less can misinterpret something isolated.
I plan to continue this series; and think verses that describe Christ dying for the sins of the whole world may be a good place to begin. After an extensive study in Hebrews on such apparent contraditions to my premise a couple years back I may go there next to explore some of the warnings there as well as the Gospels and being a branch cast into the fire.
Whatever happens; we all should be searching the scriptures daily as the Bereans did. We still should fear God; knowing He is not just Savior; but Lord; King and Master of us all. Learning His ways is the most important thing; not just a bunch of facts about Him. The Word is our instruction manual but unless taken to heart it won't change us.
The theory of a secured salvation no matter how a christian lives is a result of what I think is called "a hyper(super) grace. It is a belief that many have who like to take all the responsibility about their life off them and place it on God. God saves, God makes us do this, that, all things, make us wanting or not wanting things. It is always God, never us. As if though one puts the auto pilot in their life and the car goes on its own. As if the Spirit of God substitutes their own spirit, as if believers stop desiring or disliking things, as if they never think and act on their own. Even as if obeying or disobeying God does noy really matter, God will always find a way to repair the situation. As if good works have no value for a man. There is where all that starts from.
But this is what I will examine tomorrow, for now let us think,
Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Will not blot out his name out of the book of life? Is there such a case?
Goodnight, the Lord be with you.
God has given you a new name.
The resurrection made all things NEW, including your name.
Isaiah 62:2 ...... and thou shall be called by a new name ....
Revelation 2:17 ...and I will give him a white stone, and in that stone a NEW NAME written, which no man knoweth but he that RECEIVETH it.
Revelation 3:12 ...and i will write upon him my new name ...
If you don't YET know your new name, the word of God tells you what that name is.
You were married to Christ by his and your resurrection TOGETHER, the bride takes the name of her husband,
You were baptised in the NAME of Jesus.
There was only ONE BODY raised at the resurrection, and that ONE BODY was given LIFE by ONE SPIRIT.
1 Corinthians 12:27 NOW you are the body of Christ .....
Luke 8:11 .... the SEED is the WORD OF GOD .....
Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with them (YOU), saith the Lord, the words that I (the Father) have put in your (Christ's) mouth, shall not depart out of your (Christ is the WORD, the SEED) mouth, nor out of thy SEED (your born again by the WORD of GOD----you become SEED) nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED (your are going to bear fruit---SEED), saith the Lord, from henceforth (the resurrection) and forever.
You are the BODY OF CHRIST.
Revelation 19:16 And he had on his vesture and on his thigh (body) written, THE LORD OF LORDS AND THE KING OF KINGS
Revelation 19:13 ...and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD ....
Revelation 1:1 The REVELATION (the revealing) of Jesus Christ .....
Revelation 1:11 .... I AM .... the first (man) ....I AM .... the last (man)
Exodus 3:13 .... I AM that I AM .... I AM hath sent ME to YOU ....
John 17:22 ...and the GLORY that thou has given me, I have GIVEN THEM ....that they may be ONE as we are ONE ...
You were given a NEW NAME, a gift of GOD, by the death and resurrecting of CHRIST.
God bless you.
Note: I can't find the prequel as it were to this thread; so the audience may be limited. I may get into further discussion on the main discussion area but will try to sum things up here.
A major issue here that I have opened the "can of worms" on is; in regard to just who is identified as those dressed in white garments which were made that way through blood ( Rev. 7:14 referring to robes). It certainly can be expected that the witness of the 144,000 will bring many to faith and willing martyrdom. Other verses referring those whose garments were made white make verses such as Revelation 3:4; and Zechariah 3:3 be contrasted with Ephesians 5:27. For if some in Laodicea are naked among other things; surely anyone with a garment in God's presence is saved; although it is much like Jude 1:23 being saved as though through the fire; or 1 Corinthians 3:15 where one suffers loss and not much remains after their works are burned up by and large. In other words I would argue that to have a garment in the first place we are saved; if we allow sin to spot it then there are certain ramifications; including what I propose as missing the reward of a rapture if indeed it is more than just a salvation prerequisite. I would strongly suggest in these last days; there is little fruit being produced; and the Lord of the harvest is looking for it. He will either purge us to produce more fruit ( John 15:2) or as the same verse indicates we are not His child (producing no fruit) and are eventually cut off. Again; we need to broaden our scope and see those who are unbelievers; those judged more harshly for hearing and rejecting the truth; lukewarm believers and those who are producing much fruit. We must as Hebrews suggest; believe God is a rewarder of those things done for Him ( Heb. 11:6). We also should pay attention to those seeking a better country ( Heb. 11:16) of those who willingly gave up their lives for this.
I do my best not to be overly redundant in these posts; I do have some earlier Revelation commentary as to cross references that make a Pre-Trib (or my own variation on it) conclusion. I try to quote references when available; on this post I am assuming most people already have a fundamental understanding of the Bible verses either supporting or against such a viewpoint. I will seek to look to the integrity of the whole Word of God; New Testament and Old. There are a few verses in Isaiah and Psalms which seem to talk of God hiding His people until the indignation be past such as Isaiah 26:20. I used Psalm 40 also to show how many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay as a sort of tie in to verses such as Romans 11:25 on the time of the Gentiles coming "to the full" or other verses in that book on Israel being provoked to jealousy to indicate how a Rapture as well as Resurrection of the saints would finally wake some people up.
The first fundamental concept is interpreting the bride of Christ from the wedding party; and or wedding feast of the Lamb. This makes the discussion of the 10 virgins a warning for all of us; whether it is to make the Rapture; or be ready for Christ's return. My introduction quotes a verse in Revelation 16 which still seems to show that late in the Tribulation some need to be alert to Christ's coming. I think at this point I also want to emphasize something else I stated earlier; that oftentimes there is a tendancy just to separate believers from nonbelievers. This has several issues; first of all it makes us ignore verses such as Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward to another; and many other verses indicating various levels of spiritual fruit production and consequent rewards or lack thereof. ( Matt. 13:8; Matthew 25:14-30; etc). As Paul stated we are to seek the prize of His high calling (Phillipians 3:14). That means many miss out.
As stated previously; I wish to look to the Word to explain itself. I also wish to maintain the hope of 1 Thessalonians 5:11 in light of our appearing before the King of Kings. I take the minority opinion that perhaps not all will be Raptured who believe as it appears to be a reward issue and because of certain language related to those in white garments washed in the blood; which appears to indicate those who previously had spotted or wrinkled garments and were not part of those in Ephesians 1:4.
I don't think it prudent to delve too deeply here into that concept; what I will say is that verses like Luke 21:36 and Revelation 3:10 at the very least should cause us to examine ourselves to see if we are saved and the Spirit is communing with us.
We should understand that not all who call themselves Christians truly are saved; and that parables like that of the 10 virgins whether it is an analogy of the church or of unbelieving Israel; whether it speaks of readiness for the Rapture or the Second Coming it certainly is a warning for us all to be ready. We can look to Revelation the same way; it is certainly applicable to those already under persecution and distress even with some unique characteristics to Tribulation events in history.
I am also as I probably made clear in earlier posts pretty dogmatic on taking a literal approach to scripture; and in Revelation taking things as indicated at least in chronological order or at least sequentially. I also emphasize the concept of Predestination in Revelation; as well as showing how great revival and restoration of the nation of Israel are some reasons for this final conflagration and time of terrible judgments. We should not be glib but sober minded when we consider the magnitude of these events. I contend that the church age is still in effect in it's final stages; the end of the age is near.
This passage indicates that God is not slacking concerning His promise in regard to the day of the Lord. This would be indicative of a number of promises.
First of all; this would be the immediate reception in heaven after our resurrection or rapture when we would be glorified; and recieve the reward for our service or lack thereof throughout our earthly sojourn. As I have repeated many times; Revelation 3:11 warns us about another taking our rewards; and that comes after the verse immediately preceding about the Philadelphia church escaping the trial which will come upon the "whole world."
Secondly; we have the whole Body of Christ which returns as the armies of heaven along with Christ in Revelation 19; and rules and reigns with Christ in Revelation 20 during the Millennial period (and also throughout all eternity in the new heavens and earth in Rev. 21.)
Thirdly; we have the physical changes on the earth and the restoration of the animal kingdom with the WOLF laying down with the lamb (not the lion as is a common misnomer but that is certainly possible as well in verses such as Isaiah 11:6). The final change in Revelation 21 will involve once again as was in he beginning one land mass with the removal of the sea.
Finally; of course we will have Satan's restraint and after the 1000 years final punishment. Perhaps this is the most underappreciated aspect of the change. After all the art of war will no longer be pursued at this point ( Micah 4:3). What the enemy would love to reflect in today's world system is the external glamor of earthly gems and jewels; physical beauty; power; influence; control; hypnotic trance through music; media; drugs and whatever means an "equal opportunity destroyer" would fathom to blind men to the truth will be gone; the veil lifted from their eyes ( 2 Cor. 4:3-4). This evil has caused all creation to groan ( Rom. 8:22); along with the accumulated sin and decay of a fallen creation awaiting restoring.
being saved and being born again are two completely different things.
romans 6:23 the wages of sin is death, the "gift" of god is eternal life through (the resurrection) of jesus christ.
jesus and all mankind died on the cross of passover, because jesus was raise from the dead; by the spirit of his father, death has passed over all mankind.
1 corinthians 15:22 as in adam all die, even so in christ (by his resurrection) shall all me made alive.
this happen 2000 years ago, yet man want believe god's word; mankind was saved from death by christ's resurrection, 2000 years ago: god's "gift" by the resurrection of christ.
salvation from death; has nothing to do with your works, it was given to you before your were even born: humble yourself before god.
isaiah 52:5 ...my name is continually ever day blasphemed.
my people; by that resurrection, you and christ together were made one: you were bonded; married to christ, a new creation, your the body in the marriage, christ is the life of that marriage.
philippians 2:13 for it is god "his life" that worketh in you "his body" both to will and to do his good pleasure.
by that resurrection you were married to christ: you now bear his name.
acts 2:38 "repent" ( of your false beliefs), and be ye baptised in the name of jesus.
revelation 3:12 ...and i will write upon him (my wife) my name ....
matthew 22:14 many "all" are called (to be save from death: the "gift" of god), few are chosen (to be judges) in the kingdom of god.
those born again by the word's of god, will be judges; on the earth, when christ subdues all under him: the kingdom of god.
1 peter 1:23 being born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible seed, by the word of god, which liveth and abideth forever.
god word is truth and life, a kingdom.
god bless you!
So, in this case, the Greek would read, "tereso ek" = 'to keep from'; (with 'ek', meaning, 'from out, out from among, from'). If we apply any other inference from this phrase, other than 'keeping or guarded from', then we have to ask the questions, 'how is the Lord Jesus going to guard the Church from (or even, during) this hour of trial upon the whole world?' Will He shelter, protect, or even move the Church to a distant place to avoid this trial (tribulation)? What then should the Church make of the warnings about not receiving the anti-Christ's mark, of various physical sufferings, even beheadings, if Christ has secured us ("kept us") from such testings? Then there arises a problem in understanding the position of the Church: pre, mid, or post tribulation, & the appearance of the anti-Christ & subsequent trials believers face or don't face. Only the pre-trib position adequately fits the meaning of this verse.
Actually, the problem I do have with these verses is, 'whatever happened to the Philadelphian Church to whom this promise was made?' Philadelphia, a well known city has long gone/in ruins, with only a handful of the taller building columns exposed above the ground, and the city, Alasehir, now built on top of it. This Church never realized the promise given to them, but the Church today all over the world can confidently hang onto it as we await the Lord's return.
You're not intruding at all.
This is not a bad topic, I'm just sorry I'm so behind on reading most of it. It makes us dig and learn as I believe Brother Chris said.
We don't have a lock on this topic,
I was just emphasizing to Gigi that whether right or wrong when we openly refuse ones view offer yours.
Maybe that person is wrong but you don't help them by keeping what you learned to yourself and refute their beliefs by other means.
Now concerning Revelation 3:10
You put the emphasis on "keep" or to "guard against." (Also Strongs).
I'm putting emphasis on "FROM" THE "HOUR" (season" or time.)
It doesn't say during the hour. It says from the hour or "season" or time.
But here is how it doesn't fit a post-trib viewpoint.
Some say we are to be brought through the tribulation for a time of testing. or persecution. If we're protected against it and kept in it.
How are we tested?
This temptation shall come upon "ALL THE WORLD", to try them that (DWELL) upon the earth.
Throughout scripture Gods people is not identified as earth dwellers.
You see this often in the OT those who dwell in the land as the opposition.
In Daniel 7:25 it says the Antichrist shall wear out the saints during this period. That's not the Church if we consider Revelation 3:10 as you see it.
Here's a unique picture of what might be a picture of the Rapture in the OT.
Isaiah 26:19-21 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST.
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain".
thru
Isaiah 27:1.
God bless.
I haven't been ignoring you, I just chose to hold off from reading replies until I could focus on answering rather than multitasking as I seem to can't get away from.
It's not your view that's the issue, It's the lack of knowledge and evidence you present when you rebuking
If you have been studying scripture on eschatology you share what you have learned out of scripture! Not "What you think was taught over the centuries. If one gives you a scripture such as Revelation 3:10 as a proven pret-rib verse Meaning kept OUT of that time!
(From the "HOUR" of temptation)
Should you say no it's not or deal with this verse with your own interpretation? You say "It don't say that, and then go on to say what you think others in the past had to say.
That's the issue I have with your rebuttals.
It's not one that helps. I've known for a while you were on opposite sides of many views and that isn't the problem. It's the way you enter the discussion.
When you do explain your view you leave holes that need to be filled with scripture!
For instance, you said you believe in the Millennium but it's not on earth, it's in Heaven.
Well you have A LOT of old testament scriptures you have to clarify!! A LOT!!
You said the rapture is at the end of the world when we are Judged. How does that work being that the Millennium is in Heaven? Please explain that because that's not even a post-trib view!!
How does it work?
How do you associate this with Revelation 20:7-8 ?
'And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations WHICH ARE IN THE FOUR QUARTERS OF THE EARTH, Gog and MaGog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Also Revelation 20:9.
Do you understand why I say you should show why you hold these views that doesn't seem to line up.
I wish I had more time to engage. Hopefully soon I will.
Go's bless
Galatians 5:1 kjv, Revelation 3:10-11 kjv.
Even the Revelation 14:14-16 passage you quoted, referring to the harvest being the Church; if this is the Rapture, why then did the Church have to experience the previous judgements of God (in Revelation 6:1-17: Seal Judgements; Revelation 8:1-9:21: Trumpet Judgements). These can't be the ordinary, everyday turmoils that Earth's inhabitants face, but specific Judgements from God and then the sickle is struck for the harvesting (& of course, some are cast into the winepress of God's Wrath).
So brother, I don't want to continually rehash the earlier passages we've written about, as clearly we read these prophetical messages differently. My understanding is that the Great Tribulation of seven years (the last week seen in Daniel's prophecy), which includes God's Wrath in its various phases & intensities, will come after the Church is removed; even as promised to the Philadelphian Church in Revelation 3:10.
The anti-Christ (at least at the beginning of his reign of terror to his opponents), & the beginning of God's Judgements ( Revelation 6,8,9), assure our hearts that the Rapture of the Church can happen suddenly, without any signs to prepare for that day. The call is for our expectant joyous living & readiness now, as even the early Church was to urged to expect ( Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:8; Revelation 1:3) - not for our awakening when things begin to get very difficult in the course of the final seven years. The call was always for believers' readiness - we couldn't be in such a state if we know that much more needs to happen before the Lord's Coming/Rapture of the Church - death might overtake most of us before then.
d. the revelation of the anti-Christ is restrained ( 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12). Paul's reason for writing this was because the Church was greatly troubled that the Day of the Lord (Christ) had begun. Paul said that that day wouldn't commence until Jesus came for them & raptured them ("our gathering together unto him": v1). The 'restrainer' is the Holy Spirit in God's people, then when He is removed, God's people are removed, for the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell us & work in & through us & for the Gospel's propagation ( John 16:7,8,13).
e. a comparison between an imminent Rapture & Rapture at the Second Coming:
1. Translation of all believers ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) --- No translation at all ( Revelation 19:6-21).
2. Raptured saints return to Heaven ( 1 Thessalonians 4:17; John 14:1-3) --- Raptured saints return to Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 3:13; Revelation 19:14).
3. Any moment, in readiness, without signs ( 1 Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; James 5:7-9; Revelation 3:11, 22:7,12,20) --- many signs given of the Great Tribulation which leads into Jesus' coming (so a readiness cannot be expected, as the seven year's count down begins with the anti-Christ).
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture position keeps the Church ready & watching for her Lord's Coming. Any other position can give her the tendency to apathy & carelessness. The Church is told to be watchful, in spite of ridicule, "where is the promise of his coming" ( 2 Peter 3:4). But Christ's coming is held back until the full number are saved (v9) - and then Jesus will come to take His Church Home.
Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.
Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:
a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).
c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.
God warns in Revelation 3:11 about not losing our reward or crowns. God will use whoever is willing to fulfill the Great Commission and to do His works as long as His Body remains on earth in the church; of course the warning is to individuals in that text but as we see with the Ephesian church when the first love is abandoned true doctrine can still be present but the Lord is no longer living within a congregation.
Later on in Revelation when the church is removed angels themselves (likely high ranking) cover large geographical areas proclaiming the Gospel themselves. They are presently here to guard us and protect us and strengthen us for the task at hand and are of course in the backdrop. Any angels demanding worship or working through an agent to preach falsehood are "anathema" and thus are accursed along with those who follow such damnable heresies.
Let us remain faithful so that the Spirit will not be grieved and that He will dwell within His followers. This requires fear of the Lord and resulting obedience out of love.
When we were resurrected with Christ, Christ is LIFE ( John 14:6), we became the BODY of Christ, each person is the church, the seven churches in Revelation is symbolic of MAN.
John 1:51 ....Hereafter, (when Christ was resurrected and became the life IN YOU, his Body) ye shall see heaven open, and the angels (ministering spirits) of God ascending and descending upon the son of man ---- Christ and YOU his BODY, HIS CHURCH .......
Psalms 91:12 They (the angels) shall bear thee up (Christ and YOU his body), lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
God Bless YOU!
Jesus says to us come and buy gold from Me. Revelation 3:18 Now we know this that the gold we buy is the gateway to the kingdom of God. For eternity. The others who have not settled with lamp oil or with interest. Is not Fit for Gods Kingdom.
It would be nice if more ppl here on the web have some thoughts about this. He died for all, but not evrybody is called. Because they are against Him. Dont want to belive in Him. Ohh i wish that i have bought some gold and white cloth from Lord Jesus.
God bless us all and give us wisdom and understanding in His word. Love u all in Christ.
In these crazy times, I should have been deceived the same way millions of others have been, but it's no contest. I've been able to see the truth, and the lies, for what they are the whole time. It's like my eyelids are taped open and I can't help but see the truth.
The only explanation is that Jesus granted me this undeserved insight, and must have done so for a reason. I just don't know what to do next.
It's a scary time for all of us, and I want to leave darkness for good and live in the light of God. I just don't know what to do next. I know to read the Word and to pray, but it feels like I should do more. Maybe I need help finding the right scriptures to study; how to learn more about God's plan for me from here for dummies.
Any suggestions?