Proverbs
King James Version (KJV)
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not knowledge nor salvation...
having wisdom coming from God himself is greater than anything else since it was there before the universe was created...
this passage dont talk about God's sovereignity or Jesus being God...it talks about wisdom and how are we to view it...
that;s why it said at the begginning of the passage
"Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?"
Jeremiah launched forth and as we see to all the Nations, in other words a Prophet to the world until the fig tree generation,the last one, jeremiah must of been a pretty good person in the first earth age because God ordained him when he was in his mothers womb. In this writting that lasted 40 years he is 21 years old at the start and this Book is written to the House of Judah. We see God speaks of the 10 tribes that had been taken captive 200 years before and at this time they had already scattered over the mountains. In this writting God is talking History at the time and when speaking of the House of Isreal He is speaking future. So what I see is when I was reading chapter 8 and its speaking of antichrist coming from the north that the preachers that were supposed to warn us were playing church and the people coming out are saying, my temple,my temple, my temple says this and my church says that and the people never read the Word of God to know what He says so they can receive blessing. I notice that God sees these as houses or churches that don't teach the full word of God so that the people know the full truth of the Book that these one verse charlie churches are dung. I`ll have to read on but I think verse 7:23 is something we should think hard on. Study the word and don't trust any man in a building with your life.
CIRCLE-[O] (IT NEVER ENDS. BEFORE THE MOUNTAINS WERE BROUGHT FORTH, OR EVER THOU HADST FORMED THE EARTH AND THE WORLD, EVEN FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING, THOU ART GOD- PSALM 90:1.
GOD IS ABSOLUTE. HE IS ETERNAL OR SOVERIGN. HE IS THE BEGINNING AND END.WISDOM BEING STYLED AS A FEMALE- PROVERBS 8:1-4. SAYS THE LORD POSSESSED WISDOM IN THE BEGINNING OF HIS WAY, BEFORE HIS
WORKS OF OLD (ANCIENT)WISDOM SAYS SHE WAS SET UP FROM EVERLASTING, FROM THE BEGINNING, OR EVER THE EARTH WAS. WISDOM SAYS "WHEN THERE WERE NO DEPTH, I WAS BROUGHT FORTH; WHEN THERE WERE NO FOUNDATIONS ABOUNDING WITH WATER. BEFORE THE MOUNTAINS WERE SETTLED, BEFORE THE HILLS WAS SHE BROUGHT FORTH:WHILE AS YET HE HAD MADE THE EARTH, NOR THE FIELDS, NOR THE HIGHEST PART OF THE DUST OF THE WORLD" .WISDOM SAYS, "WHEN HE PREPARED THE HEAVENS, SHE WAS THERE- IN OTHER WORDS SHE WAS THERE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.GOD HAD THE PLAN OF SALVATION FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD- IT JUST DID'NT BEGIN IN THE BEGINNING. CHRIST IS AND WAS IN GOD...AND SO WERE AND ARE WE. MS. THOMAS
I feel bad for them
But to consider Chosen Vessels comment posted 8/04/2010; I am constrained to say iv'e never heard such gobbledy gook! Jesus refered to the Holy Ghost as He over and over again in John chs. 14 tru 16. I believe it would be wisdom to agree with Jesus on this one and pray that Chosen would be delivered from confusion. To ascribe God the Father as( sub atomic darkness ), is not only unscriptural, but ignorance at best and perverting the Word of truth at worst. James 1:17 states He is the Father of Lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. There is not even a shadow much less darkness with Father God. And John states in 1 John 1:5 that God is light, and in him is NO DARKNESS!! sub-atomic or otherwise. Prov. ch 8 & vs.7 wisdom cries out "For my mouth shall speak truth" Jesus said,"I am the way, the truth, and the life." John 14:6 And no man cometh unto the Father but by me. We are not coming to (sub-atomic darkness) we are coming out of darkness into His wonderful light.A notable sign of wisdom is vs.7 "SPEAK TRUTH".
The feminine or masculine forms in many languages has 'nothing' to do with "male" and "female" as such. In French, 'car' is feminine and in English a ship is feminine. "She" sunk(The Titanic) on her 'maiden' voyage. I like to use 'virgin' olive oil in my food. I am looking for the 'male' plug for my electronic gadget. Language is purely conventional. Calling God "He" does not make Him "male" nor does the use of feminine pronouns for Wisdom imply the source of wisdom is the great SHE! It is just the necessity of using pronouns that one has to choose 'he', 'she' or 'it' for English. Pronouns serve as placeholders for nouns and proper nouns. No gender is necessarily implied with the exception of people and animals where gender is obviously implied.
The literal meaning or translation would be to remove the pronoun and put the noun. Illiterate feminism is responsible for this mindless debate. This is a non-issue. In any case, there are languages where there are no gender pronouns. There is a pronoun for people and another for things(non-persons). For such languages, it is hard to have this sort of discussion.
So, please people, give us a break, will you!
A careful look at the above cited verses will reveal to us the following facts —
1. The Wisdom of God is a mystery
2. The hidden Wisdom ordained by God was before the world
3. It was not known by the princes of this world
Due to these, they crucified the Lord of Glory.
The Wisdom of God being mentioned by Paul here is the Wisdom in a mystery, the hidden Wisdom, which is the Lord of Glory. Remember that this Wisdom was ordained by God before the World.
Who is the Lord of Glory?
( James 2:1) “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.”
It is crystal clear, therefore, that the Wisdom mentioned by Paul who existed and was ordained by God before the world is the Lord Jesus Christ — The Lord of Glory.
It this the same Wisdom being mentioned in the Book of Proverbs?
( 1 Corinthians 1:24) “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”
The Apostle Paul said, “The Wisdom of God.” A little knowledge in grammar will teach us know that there is no other Wisdom of God because he used the definite article ‘the.’ However, Christ is the Wisdom of God to those who are called. No wonder, Tumbok does not understand because he was not called. God calls people into the Church of God and not in any church founded by man.
( 1 Corinthians 1:1-2) “Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours…”
It is in the Church of God that God calls people which He considers worthy of serving Him. If there are those who do not consider Christ as ‘the’ Wisdom of God, they are the enemies of Christ.
( 1 Corinthians 1:23-24) “But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”
Christ is not the Wisdom of God to those who were not called into the Church of God, but a ‘stumbling block’ and foolishness. Certainly, He is the same Wisdom being mentioned in Proverbs 8:22 —
( Proverbs 8:22) “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.”
The word ‘possessed’ being used by the Wisdom (referring to Christ) is very much apparent in the declaration of John.
( John 1:18) “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
The Wisdom was possessed by the Father in the beginning of His ways, before His works of old. The succeeding verses, the 23rd and the 24th, prove that He was begotten before anything was made.
( Proverbs 8:23-24) “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.”
No other being in the universe was brought forth or begotten of the Father other than the only begotten Son, which was in the beginning, the Wisdom in the bosom of the Father.
( Hebrews 1:5) “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”
He is also the Son mentioned in the Book of Proverbs, which was with the Father in the creation of everything.
( Proverbs 30:4) “Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?”
He is the person to whom God was speaking, in the creation of man.
( Genesis 1:26) “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”
Others conclude (which were always erroneous) that God was speaking to angels; but this is not so. God was speaking to someone who has the same image as He has, and there is no other person in the universe or beyond it, that has the exact image of God other than the Son.
( Hebrews 1:1-3) “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high…”
Note that by the Son he made the worlds. The Son is the express image of His person. These reasonings of Saint Paul jive with the preaching of John in his gospel.
( John 1:1-3) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
To sum up, that Jesus Christ really is the Wisdom of God being mentioned in the Book of Proverbs, let us look at the verses a second time.
( Proverbs 8:22-30) “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him…”
I have highlighted in red words and phrases that speak of the time element proving that the Wisdom, that is the Son, pre-existed before He was born of Mary in the form of a man. There is no other Wisdom of God being mentioned in the Bible, other than the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ; the Lord of Glory, the wisdom that God used in the creation of everything that exists.
( Colossians 2:2-3) “That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”
All treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ. The Apostle Paul has known this so he wrote —
( Colossians 1:15-17) “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”
How can something that does not exist be made an instrument in the creation of everything that exists? That is impossible!
( John 1:1-3) “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
The Son was there in the Creation of everything! Without Him was not anything made that was made!