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Just a few things, I am sorry you feel you have been lied to, there are different interpretations out there. If we study Matt. 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 together it helps.
I have found when studying the Bible, we should not start with a preconceived idea, it is easy to see Scriptures that fit a picture we have painted in our mind rather than letting the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit reveal the true meaning.
First, Jesus's death and resurrection were hidden from them, Luke 18:31-34. Even after he was crucified, they were distraught and did not understand the fact that he was killed. John 16:16-20 and we have Luke 24:4-6. Not knowing Jesus was going to die would they be asking Jesus about His second coming?
Is all of Matthew 24 about the end time, many combined it with other prophecies to create a picture of the end time. Some of it is obviously about Jesus's second coming but much of it was to prepare them for what they were to endure up to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. False prophets we see there were many before 70 AD, Acts 21:36-38 Acts 8:9 and others. If we look at history there were wars, earthquakes, and famine, Acts 7:11 and Acts 11:28.
Many put Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 at the end time with an antichrist, should we not consider what Luke wrote about the same thing, Luke 21:20 that history has recorded?
One other thing why would Jesus say to pray their flee would not be on a Sabbath day? Today would not be a problem with the transportation we have. Back then the gates of Jerusalem would be locked and would be hard to get out and it would take days to get clear, with a pace of 2.5 mph.
I am with you, we sleep in the grave until resurrection the first of those who are chosen and faithful, Rev. 17:14 at Jesus's second coming and the second, the rest of the dead at the white throne judgment/the sheep and the goats and those whose names are not in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire, Rev. 20:15.
God bless,
RLW
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
End: From a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination (literally, figuratively or indefinitely), result (immediate, ultimate or prophetic), purpose); specially, an impost or levy (as paid) -- + continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost. a. termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be, (in the Greek writings always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time.
Matthew 24:15 (during tribulation)
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
Matthew 24:16
"Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" (THOSE IN JUDAEA DURING TRIBULATION)
Mark 13:14
"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"
I agree with you, sharing the gospel with as many as we can.
I do not think Russia will intervene they are depleted with their war in Ukraine, there may be a few nuclear bombs, but we know this world is not destroyed by nuclear war. Iran is already in it, whether the other militant groups join in is the big question. The U. S. with all the ammo and supplies they have given to Ukraine and have not replaced our supplies plus what they will give to Israel I would not be surprised if China makes their move.
End times have many interpretations, some things that have already been fulfilled are looked for to be in the future. Many are looking for an antichrist when we see there is not one but there are three in Revelations, Rev. 12,13. I feel people are looking for things that are not coming like the Church being taken to heaven when there is not one verse in the Bible that says we are going to or we are taken to heaven. The earth is for man, this earth, and the new earth. It says those who are worthy will reign on earth not heaven, 2 Tim. 2:12 Rev. 5:10
There will be those in the first resurrection that will meet Jesus in the air on His way down to earth, (the world is round) Matt. 24:31 Mark 13:27 After the tribulation, it does not say He then goes back up to heaven.
We see that on that day His feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, and also Jesus along with the 144000 first fruits will stand on Mount Zion/Sion the mountain just in front of Jerusalem. Much of the end times are tied to the world economy there is so much behind the scenes we do not see and will not see until the end starts.
Whatever comes we are told to watch, this life is not our hope, 1 Cor. 15:19, it is the one we have been promised, Titus 3:7. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints, Rev. 13:10. It will be things coming that have not been, Matt. 24:21,29. My understanding I will leave it there.
God bless,
RLW
I hope you have noticed that the Word is something and really the only thing that I constantly quote. Any reasonable conversation relies on it. I have discussed the subject of the Rapture before with numerous references from the New and Old Testament; with the basic principle being that God delivers from as well as through certain things. Such is the typology of Enoch and Elijah who were translated as opposed to Lot who escaped just as judgment came. My basic premise is that it is one thing to die as martyrs now and we CERTAINLY need to be cognizant of that fact as something such as the brave girl who was martyred at Sandy Run that it is coming here. The only thing different in the Tribulation is how demonic entities and God's judgments (which ARE immediately upon opening the Seal Judgments which only CHRIST HIMSELF can open) manifest. And as I've stated before the gates of hell will not prevail against the church at present but the saints WILL be overcome in the Tribulation. I will let you look up the verses as I have quoted them often. The worst time in human history ( Matthew 24:21) is something we haven't seen yet when Satan is allowed temporary control over the whole earth; God has to shorten the days or no one survives ( Mark 13:20).
REVELATION IN 3 PARTS Past-Present-Future
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast SEEN, and the things WHICH ARE, and the things which shall be HEREAFTER;
Things which thou hast SEEN ( Rev 1:1-18) things which ARE ( Revelation 2,3) things which shall be HEREAFTER ( Revelation 4:1)
John wrote down what he had seen, in the order in which he saw them.
REV 2,3 'WHICH ARE' CHURCHES IN JOHNS TIME/CHURCHES TODAY
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth
Rapture 'seizing and carrying off'
There have been raptures already just by the definition above, more yet to come.
Enoch, Elijah, Captives free in the OT are 'raptures'
RAPTURES DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
(Disclaimer: John wrote it) Those who repent during tribulation before the 7th seal, later 144,000 and Two witnesses. Salvation will be available to those who ask for God's grace before the 7th seal though they must endure the first 6 seals.
REV 4:1 RAPTURE/TRIB (Dead in Christ rise first, they which are alive) 6 SEALS ( REV 7:14 Great multitude..'out of' meaning within. Two Witnesses, 144,000 man child)
TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION SEEK HIM WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND!
Mark 13:32 -But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
RAPTURE/START OF TRIBULATION ( Rev 4:2/19:11-21) 2ND COMING OF CHRIST
Chapter 7 starts 'after these' so chapters 4,5,6 have happened.
LITTLE HORN UPROOTS 3 NATIONS, AND OTHER 6 FALL IN LINE. AFTER 3.5 YEARS OF WAR.
Zechariah 14:16-23 - After Tribulation 'Those that left' 'year to year' for 1000 years. Will live, age, multiply and die. In Heaven until 1000 years are up. These nations satan will be let loose to deceive the nations one last time.
NOT THOSE RAPTURED SAINTS WITH CHRIST 2ND Coming, THEY WILL BE ETERNAL
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So, who are these false apostles (e.g. Edward Burroughs - 1657) and false Christs the 'Word of God' speaks of ( Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Luke 9:55; 2 Cor. 11:13-15; Gal. 4:8; Rev. 12:9)?
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
Comments posted on this discussion forum, that just tell a story but cannot provide deliverance from 'spiritual' bondage or salvation to mankind, raise many questions according to God's judgment.
Do they follow after an image of a false God ( Exodus 20:3,4,7) and a false Christ ( Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Luke 9:55;
2 Cor. 11:13-15; Gal. 4:8; Rev. 12:9) or do they remain ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, but have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God ( Romans 10:3).
Matthew 7:7. Seek, and ye shall find.
Thats also why pre-trib believers say Mt Ch. 24 is only for the Jews, but ( Mark 13:24-27) tells us the same thing. And the last verse in that chapter is ( Mark 13:37) which says "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch". This is prophecy for us for the time we are living right now just like ( Mt 24:29-31) is prophecy for us today!
Again thank you Elliux2 for your comment.
Blessings to you and all who seek His Truth.
You write that Jesus is; "a normal creature and not God".
What is the source of this data? It is not the Bible.
Whether we believe it or not, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is not "a normal creature".
And whether we believe it or not, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, Immanuel, the Word made flesh, God, and the Son of God. It is simply a FACT that the Bible teaches this.
See these references: Mat 16:16, Mat 1:23, Isa 7:14, Joh 1:1, Joh 1:14, Mat 8:29, Mk 3:11, 2 Cor 5:10, Rom 14:10, Rev 6:16.
Your noetic challenge is to work out HOW a divine person can be incarnate, suffer on a cross, die and is rise from the dead.
It may delight you to also work out the ontological limitations of a true human nature even when united to an unlimited divine person.
Only once you gather all the data from the reliable sources and understand the full picture all the pieces will fit together. Then, and then only, will you understand the COMPLEX PERSON of Jesus Christ in the Bible is a spectacular sight.
As one Latin writing theologian put it; CUR DEUS ET HOMO.
Enjoy the journey and protect your happiness.
So neither Jesus Christ nor any other person before or after Him (except the above reference), who faced death had any angel involvement in their deaths. For Christ, it is recorded in Luke 23:46, "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." Jesus released His spirit back to the Father & in so doing He died on the Cross. And in Ecclesiastes 12:7 we read, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." The spirit of man cannot perish, for it is spirit, as God is Spirit. Man's spirit at death returns to God, for God to direct it to its abode awaiting acceptance or final judgement. So, your other questions are not applicable because there is no angel of death that Jews or Christians are told about. I know that in Islam, Azrail is believed to be the angel of death (Surah 32:11), but none recorded in the Bible nor in the Jewish Tanakh. There maybe mention of this in other Jewish literature or the Apocryphal writings, I can't be sure.
Plus, the Bible already tells us that Jesus chose to limit Himself and become a servant in the form of a man on earth. Many tend to assume that the way Jesus was as a temporary man must be the way He is all the time. Some can't possibly imagine Him any other way, failing to realize that the whole becoming a man thing was a temporary. If He didn't allow Himself to be a man within the parameters of human beings it might seem to defeat the original intent on becoming a man and being an example for us to follow.
Phil 2:5-11
I'd like to respond to your post and challenge your assumptions.
You wrote: "Well, here the Messiah says that he doesn't know the Hour, which makes him a normal creature and not God. If he truly were God, he would know the timing of the Hour and his return, but he said that he doesn't know."
It sounds like you are assuming God has limitations based on your human logic. I think your logical assumptions are flawed, however.
Isn't God big enough to choose to know or not know things? God can also change His mind. He made all things and is powerful enough to do all things including choose to operate on our time frame or dimension or not. You're assuming that God can't do that, and so you're assuming that God must have that limitation while also claiming that he has no limitations. Doesn't your assumption contradict itself?
John 1:1-3 says the Word (Jesus [verse 14]) is God, has always existed, and made all things? If you believe the Bible why would you not believe this verse?
God bless.
Someone might come and say that he didn't know the Hour in his human nature when he descended and that he chose that. Well, my friend, you are saying that before he descended, he was God and knew everything, and when he descended, he became incarnate in a human body, but he is still God and human at the same time, and this is a contradiction because human nature is ignorant, while divine nature encompasses everything. So, if Christ knows everything and at the same time does not know everything, this is ignorance and contradiction in the book. Moreover, Christ is not self-existent because he relies on others, and this makes him not God because God is self-existent and does not rely on others. From the perspective of Christ, he relied on his mother Mary's milk, and this is a great contradiction: to worship a child who drinks milk and claim that he is God. If he is God and has the ability to do everything, why doesn't he produce milk by himself?
Romans 3:10,12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:there is non that seeketh after God.
Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
1 Corinthians 1:27,28 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Part 4
The service in the temple made by hands was over as Jesus told the woman at the well, John 4:21-24. Soon in that generation, it would be physically gone and never be again. The animal sacrifices that never covered sin ended on the cross, the whole Levitical priesthood and sacrificial shadow service, Hebrews 7:11-13. Only the Messiah Himself could legitimately abolish once and forever the system of symbols that pointed forward to the atoning self-sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God.
This was the cause of the sacrifices and oblations to cease in Dan 9:27. This unveils one of the most profound and decisive revelations of the Messiah's mission, the very goal, the things determined by the seventy-weeks prophecy, God's will, the work Jesus was sent to do John 5:36 John 17:54-6 the sixfold goal of Daniel 9:24.
In vs. 26 after 69 weeks the Messiah is cut off, which after means it is in the 70th week. The people of the prince that shall come are the judgment of God not in these 70 weeks. This connection between the coming of the Messiah and the destruction of the city is the crucial message of Daniel 9:26, 27. They had 490 years to be ready and accept their Messiah and the people of the prince that shall come is the outcome of Jerusalem's rejection of her Messiah.
Jesus related the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 to Israel's final refusal to accept Him as her Messiah, Matt. 21:33-44 Matt. 23:37-38; Luke 19:41-44. The abomination Jesus was referring to in Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 was not to the future but to their near future when the Roman army would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple in their generation Luke 21:20-24.
See Part 5
Thank you we are very close in our understanding, some of the prophecies I believe may have a two-fold fulfillment, but I do not see the 70-week have a future fulfillment. The way Gabriel gave this to Daniel I understand this prophecy as a renewed probationary period for Jerusalem and the Jewish people after the seventy years of the Babylonian exile, so God is giving them 490 years to straighten up and it was seventy consecutive weeks with no gap.
The thought that the abomination the antichrist does with defiling the temple with an idol like Antiochus Epiphanes did in 160's B.C. caused the desolation. The warning Jesus gave when they see the abomination of desolation flea Judea in my understanding what happened in 67-70 AD was a second fulfillment of what we see in parts of Dan. 8 and 11 it has been a while since I have studied those.
The abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel in Matt. 24: and Mark 13:14 Jesus said when they see this happen to flea Judea into the mountains. This is said to be when the antichrist defiles the temple and breaks the covenant in the middle of the week/7 years and the great tribulation begins. The abomination done by the antichrist will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.
If we look at Dan. 9:27 the way it is worded it is not the one who does the abomination that makes it desolate like in Daniel 11 and 12 the abomination that makes desolate. In Dan. 9:27 it is written like a penalty they were charged with, "for the overspreading of abominations" and the sentence given is "he will make it desolate" and I believe this he is Jesus, Matt. 23:32-39.
The same way God used Babylon to destroy Jerusalem He used Rome, the people of the prince maybe Tiitus because he did not want to destroy the temple.
Sorry, I got wordy.
God bless,
RLW
I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."
I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.
The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.
The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:4.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
God bless.
I may be able to answer this one. Mark 13:9-11. Don't let this bother you. Satan cannot touch you. God has told him, 'you will not touch a hair on the head of my elect! If you are one of God's elect and you have not died. In the flesh. And, if you are still here when Satan is kicked out of heaven on the earth, if you as one of God's elect, refuses to let God speak through you, that is the unforgivable sin. That is what Jesus was talking about. That is the only sin Jesus he cannot forgive. I wish I could be here when that happens. I would love to give that sucker a piece of Father's mind through me.
First, take it slow and ask few questions at a time. It is good to stay on the same subject and learn it well before moving on.
First, being 'born again' means you must be born from above through the bag of water innounce of what happened in the first heaven, earth age. Nicodemus was at odd about this, but Christ explained it in John 3:13.
Satan is the 'prince of the air not the God of the world.' Meaning God has allowed his spirit to be on earth at this time until he is kicked out heaven for a five month period. Mark 13:20 tells us that Christ shorten the days for the elect sake. Revelation chapter 9 tells us that it is five months.
Jimbob,
Where I said the word council in Mark 13:9 is literally the Sanhedrin, I got this from reading it in the Greek Text. The word used in the Textus Receptus is SUNEDRIA, and it is the word for Sanhedrin. This can also be found in your Strong's Concordance #G4892, which defines it as the Jewish Sanhedrin; by analogy, a subordinate tribunal:-council. Thayer's Greek Lexicon lists it as the Sanhedrin, the great council at Jerusalem.
Now for your question, "what could cause one to be (delivered up) and killed during great tribulation?" You say "The mark of the beast will." If you are saying that those who refuse to take the mark will be killed (beheaded), then I agree. I can't agree that this will be the church because as you know, I believe the church will not be here at that time. Only non-believers will be here. They will all be warned not to take the mark. Some will heed to the warning and receive Christ, and refuse to take the mark. They will be killed.
As for Revelation 12:17, the "woman" in this verse is making reference to the nation Israel, not the church. It says that the dragon was wroth (very angry) with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the believing Jews), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So, there is a 144,000 Jews who are sealed on their foreheads. And they will be protected. But there will be other Jews on the earth who will receive the testimony, especially from the two witnesses who are in the streets of Jerusalem. And the believing Jews that will be here on the earth, after Satan sees that he can't get to these 144,000 that are sent up to what many believe is the rock city of Petra, which is already stacked and stored with food, and many believe that will be the place.
If I'm understanding your question correctly, you are asking me about where Jesus said "when they deliver you up," and when this takes place, if the "deliver you up" time period proves that Jesus was speaking of the end-time tribulation period?
My answer is no, and here's why. In Matthew 10:16, Jesus says "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Jesus is sending them out as sheep amongst wolves. He knows what's going to happen to them once they start preaching the gospel, and He tells them what's going to happen in Matthew 10:17-18. They are going to be "delivered up."
Jesus is not talking about the end-time tribulation period here. He is sending His disciples out and telling them that they will be delivered up to the councils (Jewish Councils). And then in Matthew 10:19, Jesus says "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. (This is not talking about the end-time).
In Matthew 24:9, this is to the Jews, not the church.
In Mark 13:9, Jesus says "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them."
What I notice are the words council and synagogues. The word council is literally Sanhedrin, the chief Council of the Jews. Jesus is talking to Jewish people. He is talking directly to His disciples. He is talking directly to His believers, (Jewish believers). Mark 13:11 tells us that they are going to be captured. As for Luke 21:12, this is also to the Jews, not the church.
When dealing with end-time prophecy I think the misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. They are not the same message.
Blessings to you!
Hello Jesse
I had decided not to participate any more in discussions we have all had before about "secured or not salvation", but at the end it seems I can not avoid it.
About the grk HUPOMENO and HUPOMEINAS.
HUPOMENO is a verb of the first person, its complete form is "ego hupomeno", it means "I endure", (as you know in grk when speaking the personal pronoun is ommited since from the ending of the verb it is known to whom it is reffered).
HUPOMENON is a noun, it means "the one who endures, an endurer".
HUPOMEINAS is the same as above but it refers to the past, i.e. "the one who endured", I don't think there is a respective single word in Eng.
[Pronountiation in mod grk (if you are interested), the "h" is not pronounced, and the "u" is pron. as "ee". So it is "ee-poh-meh-noh", stressed at "meh". Always have in mind that syllables in grk usually are of the form conson-vowel, not conson-vowel-conson, neither vowel-conson. as in Eng. Also vowels are clear front mouth vowels. That will help you a lot when pronouncing grk words.]
So lets go to Mark 13:13, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.". I don't really understand how you come to understand that verse the way you do. To me it is obvious that it says exactly how it sounds, that the one who endured those tribulations (Jesus speaks as if He sees those events after they happened, that is why He uses the past tense) he WILL be saved.
Similarly James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he SHALL receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him". How do you understand this verse? It is like running a road, of say 10 miles, if one finishes then one receives a crown.
Hebrews 6:15, "And so, after he (Abraham) had patiently endured, he obtained the promise"
Rom 11:22, "...but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Jimbob,
Why would the 12 be hated? Because they preached Christ. Jesus knew ahead of time what their fate would be. They would be persecuted, tortured, and except for Judas who killed himself, they would die horrible deaths. They would suffer martyrdom. Did they endure to the end? Yes, they never wavered in their faith, all the way to their death. They endured to the end of their lives, and it would be safe to believe they were saved. But Jesus was not speaking to the church telling them they must endure the 7-year tribulation period, and if they endured, they would be saved.
This is the same thing we see in Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13. We have to take these verses in context of who Jesus is actually speaking to. He wasn't speaking to the church. The church was not in existence yet. In Matthew Chapter 24, and Mark Chapter 13, Jesus is speaking to the Jews (Jewish believers).
I am looking at the other verses you gave. The first being 2 Timothy 2:11-12. That needs to be taken along with Verses 7-14 where Paul is giving Timothy instruction for service. Paul is confined, and in Verse 9, he says he suffers trouble (because of the gospel). He suffered in prison, was put in chains, and beaten. But in 2 Timothy 2:10, Paul says, "therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes.
The word endure here is HUPOMENO which means to remain under. Paul says I remain under all of my difficult circumstances because I can be bound, but the gospel can't. Therefore, I endure all these things. He says I preach the gospel wherever I am enduring the hardships, so that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul endured through tribulation/trials.
Sorry for the late reply. I have not had a chance to be on here for a couple days. I just read your address to myself and brother Chris. This might be a little long, so I apologize ahead of time. I will begin this as (Part 1):
I had previously asked you if you were referring to the word HUPOMENO because #5278 in the Strong's Concordance is the word HUPOMENO. However, both the Textus Receptus and the Greek Interlinear use show it as HUPOMEINAS, not HUPOMENO. Those words are closely related but when properly used, they convey different meanings. I don't know why Strong's says HUPONEO when the Greek text actually uses HUPOMEINAS. If you own a Greek Interlinear Bible, you will see the correct usage.
HUPOMEINAS is used in three places in the NT ( Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13). It is #5278 in the Strong's Concordance, but the word is HUPOMEINAS, not what's listed in the Strong's. This word (HUPOMEINAS) describes a person who is saved. A saved person (will) endure to the end. Some take these verses and try and tie them into the end-time tribulation period, and they say that the church will go through this and the ones who shall endure to the end, they will be saved. They say that you have to endure to the end of the tribulation. But that is not the proper context of these scriptures.
In Matthew 10:22, Jesus is speaking to His 12 Apostles. This is the training of the 12 which is outlined for us in Verses 16-42. Jesus is not speaking about people enduring through the end time tribulation. In Verse 22, Jesus says, "And ye (the twelve) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." He's speaking to the 12.
Both Jesse & I agreed with you that Strongs #5278 for 'endure' is correct. And that word is 'hupomeno'. However, the word 'endure' is not just a word on its own, but is qualified by the words, "that shall endure". Here, Jesse would give a better explanation of Greek grammar, but the word 'hupomeno' is no longer just an 'endurance' (which it certainly is), but in those verses, it changes to 'hypomeinas', to give the intended meaning by the writer. So, what you should be reading in the verses, is not just 'endurance to the end', but 'having endured to the end'; and this now gives our reading a different perspective. Where a cursory reading would imply 'one can only be saved if he endures to the end', a proper reading would assert the 'one who is saved will endure to the end'.
Leaving those verses aside & just thinking of an English example to give you (which is unrelated to the verses); if I said to you, as passenger in my car, 'a car is coming right behind me', or expressed it this way, 'a car is right behind me', I'm sure you would pick up on the nuance, exactly where the other car is positioned, apart from the look on my face. Even though 'coming' is understood as to where the car is approximately located, how I express its correct position helps you understand if we are in imminent danger of being hit.
Re: 1 Peter 1:7. Peter is writing to the strangers (Christian sojourners (of the diaspora) in Asia Minor), who were going through 'manifold temptations' for their faith - faithfully living in a pagan & hostile society; as also in 1 Peter 3:14-17. Also, the coming trials ( 1 Peter 4:12-19) upon them & Christians throughout the world generally. Their faith was already on test, not just prior to Christ's coming, but having come through their present & future trials, their victory would be to their credit & Christ's recognition. GBU.
10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."
That would mean the gospel would be published in different languages so the people of "all nations" could read God's Word. God knew His word would be in many many different languages including English. And, God kept His Word pure.
I don't believe God expects people to know Hebrew and Greek to "really" understand and get the true meaning of His Word. He made His Word available to all. Praise the Lord! Thanks for your post Jimbob, God bless
Just a little there are many parts, and this subject is hard, what we are looking for when the end comes only will affect those who are living when it starts, if it is today, are we ready? We should study it with 1 Cor. 8:2 in mind. Jesus's return is after, Satan is cast down, the beast, the false prophet, with his 3.5 years given him Rev. 13:5.
I think most agree it is the gathering together of the elect, saints, chosen and faithful, who will be in the first resurrection, whether we use Matt. 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 1 Thess. 4:16-17 1 Cor. 15:51-53 or Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 19:11-15 it is the gathering together. Where is the destination?
Most will also agree we through Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God, Rom. 5:9 and we are not appointed to wrath 1 Thes. 5:9. Where do the elect go after the gathering and thinking that the white throne judgment is for just the lost, causes division? Are we gathered and taken to heaven, or do we come back down here on earth to reign with Jesus? This earth is round so we see in 1Thes. 4:14 to Jerusalem.
Jesus is coming to carry out the wrath and those in the first resurrection are to reign with Christ on earth, Rev. 20:1-4. We see Jesus brings the wrath, Rev. 19:11-21, also, it is pictured in Rev. 6:14-17, and Rev. 11:15-18, the seventh and last trump.
God has placed Jesus above all until the last enemy is under His feet and destroyed and that will be death, 1 Cor. 15:24-26 Rev. 20:13-14. In Zech. 14:4 When Jesus returns, He will stand on the Mount of Olives where He ascended. The meeting Him in the air is the delegation of saints gathered together to welcome our King back to this earth, and the camp, the gathering of the saints will be around Jerusalem, where He will reign from Rev. 20:9 not to go back from where He came.
After Jesus returns, we see the vials poured out in Rev. 16.
Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven?
God bless,
RLW
Paul is clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that there will be a great apostasy WITHIN THE CHURCH when believers will desert the faith or be deceived by the workings of Satan.
Perhaps many who believer the Pre-Trib rapture deception will be strong enough to stand against the deception of the Antichrist and endure the sufferings , persecution, and martyrdom of the Tribulation without losing faith or denouncing Christ. But Id do think that many who do think that they will be raptured prior to the Tribulation will indeed be deceived and turn from faith, as Paul says in this Scripture citation. Some are still new believers and/or are not very robust or mature in their faith.
The possibility of many falling away when Tribulation comes because they expected to be raptured will manifest in the day of trouble. So, yes, it is a salvation issue if people are deceived into thinking they will be spared from the Tribulation and Antichrist through a pre-trib rapture and then fall away when they are not raptured, finding themselves in the Tribulation times and under the deception of the Antichrist or the temptation to acquiesce by taking the mark to preserve their own lives. This could also happen to those who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture as well.
This is why we are warned by Jesus to be watchful, prayerful, prepared, and faithful to endure to the very end.
Matt. 10:22 Matt. 24:13 Matt. 26:41 Mark 13:35