In the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man in Hell asks Abraham to send him to the earth, to his brothers. He said that if they saw him risen from the dead then they would repent. Abraham answers saying something strange. "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." ( Luke 16:31)
If I was there I would ask Abraham, "Are you sure that they will not repent if they see their brother resurrected from the dead? Are you absolutely sure? Because it seems to me that they could not ignore such a thing"
Sometime Jesus resurrected another man called Lazarus, Martha's and Mary's brother. So did the Pharisees and Sadducees believe and repente?
"10But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus" ( John 12 10-11)
Thanks brother Ronald for those thoughts and your understanding on this matter. Just to give a slight, yet important, correction to your quotation of my post: I wrote of the "SPIRITS of the deceased believers were already in Heaven, etc". So, my understanding (to answer your question) is that we are essentially spirit beings living in mortal bodies. Our spirits can never die ( Acts 7:59; Luke 16:20-23; Matthew 17:1-3) but our bodies certainly will die and perish into the earth ( Ecclesiastes 9:5,10; Psalm 6:5; Psalm 115:17) and awaiting resurrection. So, because of these perishing bodies, we are mortal beings, but with an immortal spirit that gives us life and one day returns to God.
Your quoting 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 is particularly clear. You have shared that these verses apply to the time of the resurrection of our dead bodies. But as I read it, Paul is essentially telling us that if we are alive ("at home in the body"), we are not in the Lord's presence ("absent from the Lord"). We can only be alive or dead; if alive, our spirit within us gives us life; if dead, our spirit departs our bodies that causes death.
So Paul is "groaning" over this matter, longing for departure from this life that he might be with his Lord. There isn't any intermediate state or any length of time in Paul's writing between death and life - it speaks of one or the other: either we are alive with our spirit or dead without the spirit. We can't be dead with our spirit in-house, and awaiting the resurrection. Or, we could even ask, 'why would Paul even want to depart this life and then remain in the grave for an indeterminate length of time?' His longing was to be with Jesus immediately upon his death, thus he looked forward to it.
To your answer to your question: "when will we be absent from this body?" this is at the resurrection; my understanding (as given above) is 'our absence from this body is at our death'. Every blessing.
Hi Debby. In Greek, the word, 'ptochos', means 'one in poverty, destitute'. But in the sense that Jesus speaks in Matthew 5:3, He qualifies this poverty as being experienced, not of a lack in money or goods, but in one's spirit. So, as a beggar has nothing of worth in his possession, the one who is poor in spirit, is one whose spirit has been completely broken & impoverished; he has nothing to live for. Such a one, Jesus says, 'though he is broken and worthless through no fault of his own, he can look forward with joy to being blessed in God's future Kingdom.'
And this poverty also aligns with the account Jesus gave in Luke 16:19-31, where the (physically) poor man Lazarus who probably died a miserable, lonely death, enjoyed the comforts of Paradise, whereas the rich man who gave no thought for others, suffered in excruciating pain. How do these two accounts compare to what Jesus also speaks about: to the New Birth ( John 3:3), of the repenting broken publican and the self-righteous Pharisee ( Luke 18:10-14), or even the publican Zaccheus who under conviction, changed his sinful behavior ( Luke 19:1-10)? All these accounts, including Matthew 5:3, were given by Jesus to those of Israel still under the Old Covenant of the Law. And the Law required that people dealt righteously with one another, looking out for his brother in need ( Deuteronomy 15:7,8) and not to steal from another ( Leviticus 19:11). Jesus not only reminded them of the Law but that (in the case of Nicodemus, John 3:3), that man would need to be born again by the Holy Spirit. This could only happen after Jesus' Death and Resurrection and the giving of His Spirit to all who would believe on Him. Nicodemus should have known about this ( John 3:9,10, cf Ezekiel 11:19,20, Ezekiel 36:26,27).
So the 'poor in spirit' (as the other Beatitudes) are a reflection of this new nature, bringing out the qualities in a believer, that come from a new revived spirit in him, given by God's Spirit under the New Covenant.
Now I want to reiterate (not a great linguistic way to start a sentence) what I said earlier. The idea of heaven scripturally is an army of God's people or as Hebrews mentions a great "cloud of witnesses" ( Hebrews 12:1). The idea is the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; the focus is being a functional part of the Body of Christ. Many have gotten into detailed descriptions of mansions in heaven; flowers and all sorts of other stuff involving personal visitations of loved ones. I am convinced that now as well as after the Rapture and the Tribulation period that God's people are also in prayer in heaven for those still on earth. This may fly in the face of some theologians out there and I need to make it abundantly clear we do NOT have privy to the prayer and conversations there. We CAN get closer to their walk in the Spirit if we draw closer to God through His intercession and wisdom gained as to how to pursue wisdom and draw nearer as we mature.
We can; no doubt go to the scriptures describing heaven and elaborate on the subject; and can't entirely discount certain things some may claim to have revealed. We need to remember that Lucifer himself; now fallen would draw our attention to certain imagery and patterns that encompass heaven if he can distract us from the Creator himself. This is an important point I don't want to skip over. Again; the emphasis in many so called experiences is on personal things not how the Lord glorifies Himself through His body of believers. The lack of fear of being in His presence is a big issue as well as the purposes that He has in mind for us once we enter into glory as kings and priests.
You could probably only name a few who aren't fixated on their own kingdom and moneymaking ventures selling books about experiences or paid big bucks to speak on such experiences. Luke 16:31 shows that anyone; lost or saved who comes back from the dead isn't enough to save.
Hello Shahin. If I might come straight to the point: why do you think that Christ's apostles (and of course, many many others so burdened & called) went out preaching the Gospel to all - to save sinners? As you know, not only the apostles, but also believers since those early days, have suffered much & were killed for the sake of the Gospel. Acts 21:10-13 is a good example by Paul. Why should he, and others, be willing to suffer and die so that others might hear the Good News and be saved?
I have shared Christ many times, both in my country and other lands while in ministry. If all the Bible told me was that unbelievers after death would simply perish in the earth, or even suffer for a time & disappear, then I would have no reason at all to warn others or share the Gospel. Is it because that these unfortunate ones would simply be annihilated and not have a part in Christ's Kingdom that is concerning you, or should it be of concern that the Gospel message is preached to save people from an eternal hell because of their sins?
As well, it would be wrong to think that "the idea of eternal hell fire goes back to paganism and not Christianity". Not at all, or else it could said that Jesus was also influenced by pagan beliefs. Rather, consider Matthew 13:40-42; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:22-25. These were Jesus' Words and He as the Son of God would not pander to earthly thought or wisdom. If eternal hell is not preached as a necessary part of our Gospel message, we have failed to give out the pure Gospel of Christ. If eternal hell is not a reality, then there is no reason at all to share the message of Love & Hope that can only be found in the Son of God - for if man will simply die and disappear, we may as well stay smug & indifferent in our homes, caring not for the lost; after all they just die & suffer no consequence for their sins.
The concept of total depravity; of course is an attempt to find a definition that fits best the admittedly appalling condition of the human heart as seen in Jeremiah 17:9. Whether we banter about decrying our hopeless condition because of a doctrinal assent of the situation or it is because the love of God constrains us ( 2 Corinthians 5:14) may sound the same on the outside; but it makes all the difference in reaching lost souls in the inside. One only needs to grasp Isaiah 6:5 and other verses on those prophets that saw God's presence and glory to see that this is a default reaction for all men to have. The world at large; of course scanters off in fear; or as Revelation 6:15-17.
Many today are shielded and have a temporary reprieve; as it were who hang around Christians; whether professing faith or not.
The going may be good for now; not to mention having people around who can help out in a pinch; but once the Bride of Christ is raptured; no such protection will continue to exist.
Another concept I'd like to hammer home is that in regard to Predestination (and I have said this before) it is not so much what we do but the reasons for doing it. The world no doubt is enamored with those who give a lot to the poor; and who are influential and everyone seems to live by their own standards but conforms to what is acceptable which reminds us of the Pharisees in Luke 16:15. The Lord did say they would praise God for our good works ( Matthew 5:16). Since He also mentions in the beatitudes blessing those who curse us in the same chapter in verse 44 as well as in Luke's rendition we certainly don't expect praise for the reason we do things but for external actions by some; although in theory those in the body of Christ should recognize such attributes but those who are Godly usually aren't the prominent ones in the Church even genuine works. There are many who make a sideshow for greedy gain ( 1 Tim. 6:10)
Ugh got cut off again. I am determined whenever possible to rewrite things when this happens even if it is the stupidity of my pinkie finger pressing the wrong button for the umpteenth time...
Where was I? Oh yeah Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Romans 1:24. This is the END of the concept I was alluding to; namely the prosperity crowd out there whose leadership like Ananias and Sapphira aren't wiped out due to covetousness and outright lies as to where the money is going. I won't name names here a bit of research is evident. My point here is that they are left largely to their own devices; deceiving and being deceived ( 2 Tim. 3:13). I am sort of going backwards here but ultimately something that is innocuous like a piece of paper called cash (spoiler alert; in paper form it is backed by and worth nothing) is to be used for His glory not our own covetousness. That is something I am considering as I have been able to make some money buying and selling silver coins as of late. It is wise to hold on to some of these items; but the admonitions in James about the silver and gold cankering in the last days should be a warning to us all; if not in the Tribulation perhaps before that with a worldwide currency it will be either illegal to own it or it will be declared worthless in a worldwide monetary standard. Food for thought...
Luke 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
If we save money and increment deliberately toward missions; childhood adoption and other needs God can bless it.
This question isn't about life after resurrection but about what happens after our bodies die. Many beliefs and ideas exist about what occurs when we die physically. Is there a part of us that is immortal and will never cease to exist? If so, what is the meaning of death? Is death metaphorical?
Some say that when a Christian dies, they are immediately taken to heaven, where they live forever in God's presence. Some believe that when people die, they go to Hades, the realm of the dead, which has two sections: one called paradise or Abraham's bosom for the saved, and another place of torment for the lost.
Some also believe in purgatory, and many other religions believe in an afterlife where the spirit or soul is immortal and never ceases to exist. By saying our spirit or soul is immortal, does that go against the resurrection of the dead?
If, when we die, we go to paradise or a fiery torment, where we have a body and are fully conscious of our surroundings, as in the parable Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31, or Luke 23:43, some interpret that Jesus and the thief were in paradise that same day. This supports the idea that Jesus went into Hades, emptied Paradise, and carried them to heaven.
If that happened, why would He leave David in his tomb? Peter says at Pentecost, 50 days after Jesus resurrected, Acts 2:29, Acts 2:30-35. We see what Jesus said in John 5:25-26, and this happens in Matthew 27:50-53, when Jesus cried out, people came out of their graves and appeared to many. The word resurrection in vs 53 warrants study. In John 5:26-29, this has not happened yet, but they are resurrected from their graves.
Nice to share with you again brother Carleton, after a long time. This matter on Hell, which has been given good treatment by brother Jesse in his work going through the NT (which you may have been following), is both interesting & can be the cause for various understandings of the subject.
In the OT, we read of Hell (Sheol) in several places (e.g. Psalm 30:3, understood as 'the grave'; or Psalm 9:17, as a place of suffering). When Jesus even spoke of it (Hades: Luke 16:22-24), it seems that there was a temporal place of suffering or lack of it before Christ's sacrifice for sins. Just a thought: the righteous from the OT (as Abraham was one & was quoted by Jesus), though Abraham's body was still in the grave, his soul/spirit was in that part of Hades. This teaching may have been something new to the people of Jesus' Day, but it establishes the fact that the spirits of all people live on & are sent to a place appointed & not just to the grave. But after the victory was won at the Cross, those OT saints were justified & redeemed (those who waited in hope of God's deliverance/Messiah for them).
As bro. Jesse pointed out, hell (the place of eternal suffering & torment) is really seen in Matthew 5:22 (Gk:"geenna"), & alluded to in Revelation 21:8. Though this hell (Gehenna) was created for the devil and his angels ( Matthew 25:41), sadly it will also be the future abode of all who have despised the LORD and His Word, rejecting His Salvation for their souls. This maybe what you're thinking of, where this Hell wasn't established at first, yet the warning of its future existence was given in the OT and in Jesus' Teaching. Thanks for your thoughts brother on this, for our mutual investigation & understanding.
c. (cont'd). Or, maybe the illustration that Jesus gave in Luke 12:42-48 is what some might believe are grades of punishment to sinners - the LORD God is always Just in all His doings.
d. Those of Israel who had not the redemptive of Work of Christ done for them as yet, were required to be obedient to God's Commands, fulfil the sacrifices which stayed God's Wrath from them and to await the coming full sacrifice of the Son of God. When they were obedient, this demonstrated a real faith in God's Word to them and God's Work for them. So in Hebrews chapter 11, we see a great number of men and women commended for their faith & martyrs' death, "these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" ( Hebrews 11:39,40). Both the OT & NT saints will be judged on the same basis: Faith (the one group looking forward to Calvary & the other looking back).
e. There are various beliefs as to when God's Judgements are given, at death or sometime after. From my reading of the Word, I believe there is an immediate judgement for all who die, whose spirit must leave this lifeless body. Jesus gave the account of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus at their respective deaths ( Luke 16:19-31). Here, Jesus (under the OT economy) showed the suffering of the one who lived carelessly & heartlessly in hades & the beggar who struggled to live, but given a place beside Abraham. This appears to be a temporary residence & punishment awaiting further judgement. For the believer post-Cross, our sins have already been judged & we have walked carefully before the LORD. Our only other judgement is given in 2 Corinthians 5:10, otherwise called the "Bema Seat Judgement". Here, our salvation is not in judgement (that was already accomplished at Calvary), but how we have lived this new life & used our gifts for the Lord. To Page 3.
On exploring a subject I have already undertaken in previous postings I will attempt to avoid total redundancy at least so as not to bore everyone and keep looking at different angles which at times seems to be helpful.
In this posting I would like everyone to clear their minds on what they consider free will or Predestination and look at things from the vantage point of 2 Corinthains 4:4; namely that Satan has effectively blinded folks. Let us think for a moment how a totally unbiased person with no preconceptions reacts to doctrinal truths and the spiritual world in general.
First of all we need to assess how baised we are already; not the least of which is the constant barrage of the enemy with the media blitz of all sorts of ungodly filth; and more subtle conditioning through advertising of finding contentment in material things; physical appearance and stature as this world thinks. Logically speaking; if someone can get past this obstacle to rational thought then the need is there to test what they hear against pure logic; which of course can be accomplished with proper apologetics; scripture reading and backed up by the archaelogical and historical data and information in other world literature. If we can also keep peer pressure from creeping in; many would see the strong evidence for scriptural validity.
Mere acknowledgment of course ain't enough. There has to be a real heart change; if not we only become more "religious" and find some sort of tenet or ritual to embrace whether hedonism or atheism or any other religion including Christianity but without power as 2 Timothy 3:5 states.
In all reality many are far too blinded to think impartially; so as Abraham said to the rich man in Hades even if someone came back from the dead they wouldn't believe ( Luke 16:31). And this was addressing those religious leaders who should have believed Moses and the Prophets but sought to kill the Messiah multiple times.
"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
Scripture shows us that Jesus spent 3 days preaching to those in the underworld; and taking captive those held captive ( Eph. 4:8; 1 Peter 3:19; and Matthew 27:52-53 for further study on this and those who came out of their graves after the Resurrection.
The thief on the cross would be with Him that day in Paradise ( Luke 23:43) which made him unique in several ways; he would be the last or one of the last going there at death; as for now to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ( 2 Cor. 5:8).
He would have been one who would spend the shortest time in Abraham's bosom or the "pleasant" side of Sheol and his soul at least would have been in heaven after He rose from the dead.
Therefore; there was a lot going on even though Christ's body "slept" in the tomb to use Biblical terminology from the KJV. When we consider all the unregenerate that Christ preached about His victory (it was too late obviously for their salvation) along with the multitudes of souls released from under the earth to either go to heaven or be temporarily appearing with new bodies on earth before that it is no small feat. This isn't even including all those fallen beings or offspring of giants mentioned in Genesis 6 that no doubt got wind of what was happening. We are reminded of the transfiguration just a short time before all of this where no doubt Moses was looking forward to the victory Christ was to attain for him as well as Elijah.
The Resurrection is something that; as I stated the other day the Shroud of Turin seems to indicate; but I don't want to focus on that; if only for the simple logic of Luke 16:31. We have the eyewitnesses of 500 or more people that saw Christ after His Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:6; Paul being the last one to see Him in his journey to Damascus; although we could include John seeing Him again in the visions of Revelation. There is a place for apologetics; but only the Spirit can transform a man (Rom12:2
Jesus preached to those who were in the prison as lost souls in Sheol. The others were apparently set free ( Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52-53) who were righteous saints of God in the pleasant side of Sheol. The old state of the afterlife consisted of a separate area of peace from one of torment as we see in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man ( Luke 16:19-31). Now when a believer dies he or she goes right to be with the Lord ( 2 Cor. 5:8).
Many people interpret Luke 16:19-31, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, as a literal account rather than a parable. However, in Mark 4:11 and Luke 8:10, Jesus explicitly states that He spoke to others in parables. We must consider the entirety of Scripture when evaluating this story, as I have referenced only a few relevant passages.
If this story were literal, it would imply that individuals receive their rewards immediately after death. This notion contradicts the rewards are given after the resurrection, as indicated in Revelation 22:12, Luke 14:13-14, 2 Timothy 4:8, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, along with what we see in Revelation 20:4.
What was the purpose of this story? Is it our choices, what we have faith in, God, or do we crave wealth, or do we have faith, and charity, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. This story shows the rich man rich in worldly things, but poor in morality, and Lazarus the opposite. This story also points to Jesus' death and resurrection, Luke 16:31. We see that is what happened, they still rejected Jesus after He was hung on a cross and died, put in a tomb, rose from the grave, and spoke to them for 40 days, and it did not convince them.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast intohellfire.
Where is hell now ? ?
Proverbs 15:24
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart fromhellbeneath.
Hell was inlarged when Jesus Christ took out all the Saints in Paradise .
Luke 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a greatgulffixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Apostle Paul was caught up in the spirit and saw paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up intoparadise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Now we have to worry about death and hell being cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14
Anddeathandhellwere cast into the lake of fire. This is the seconddeath.
May we all believe that's there a hell in the center of earth where it's very hot .
Hi again Fuji. 1 Thessalonians 2:19. This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". And then to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
When we place all these Scriptures together, considering that Paul was addressing the same matter in the one epistle, we can learn that he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. The believers are not only to wait expectantly for the Lord's Coming, but to be careful in their Christian living until that day - that day when they would be transformed & forever to be with their Lord.
But what happens if Paul (or us) die first, before Jesus comes? Though our bodies lie in the grave (or, not even exist in any substantial form), our spirits do return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). And we read of people alive beyond the grave ( Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3 as examples). But when Jesus returns in the clouds for us, the dead (believers' bodies) arise first to meet him in the air, & those believers still alive will be caught up (Latin, rapio (rapture); Greek, Harpazo) to join the others in this great moment of joy & fulfilment of our hopes & longings to be with our Savior forever. To this end, Paul (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19), is stating that when Jesus comes, he (Paul) will personally rejoice greatly to see his beloved Thessalonian believers also come into Christ's Presence, as his crown for his labors amongst them. Onto Page 2.
Hello Redray12. That's a great question that we all have probably given some serious thought. Unfortunately, there isn't a specific verse or teaching to answer that question completely. However, my sense is that there will be recognition of loved ones & others in Heaven.
And a couple of Scriptures to support this could be Matthew 17:1-3: the account of Moses & Elijah, now long dead, appeared with Jesus on the mount. Clearly, these men of old were recognizable & no doubt the whole scene of a transfigured Jesus & the faces & voices of these venerable men, would have held the disciples there in great awe & wonder.
And then we have Luke 16:19-31, where Jesus gives this account of Lazarus at Abraham's side & the rich man in great pain in Hades. The point being, that Jesus states that each of these men were able to see each other in the after-life, recognizing who they were, & also plead for help. Yet, there certainly is much mystery surrounding these revelations; for which we are not given any further information.
Hi Fuji. There is some division in the Christian camp about the ultimate end of those who die rejecting Christ's Gospel, i.e. whether they simply go to the grave & are no more, or, that there will be a resurrection from the dead & under judgement to face God's Wrath. And like all doctrines & teachings we find throughout the Bible, we need to consider all references to the subject matter & not focus on a single verse or two to form a judgement.
Therefore, if we had only John 3:16 to understand the afterlife (whether it exists or not), then we could well believe that 'perish' clearly means a complete cessation of life, as in someone (the body) who perishes in a house fire or perishes by drowning. But in relation to the Scriptures, we know that God has given us a spirit & that spirit is identifies who we are, given life by God, with an outer covering (a body) to house it, yet the spirit can never perish (die). Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ecclesiastes 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
And then we have the Judgement of God upon all, where those who belong in God's family, living a life consecrated to Him, are eternally secure from damnation, whereas all unbelievers (and their spirits can never be destroyed), suffer under God's condemnation. If only death was our final punishment for rejecting Christ, then we all still have to die as those in sinful, corrupt bodies; none can escape. This is a defective Gospel as most would prefer to cease to exist without any punishment & live life to the full, not answerable to God. But Christ's Sacrifice was to redeem lost sinful souls, not from death, but from God's eternal Punishment. Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 13:49,50; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
Just a few Scriptures to show the Truth of an Eternal suffering in Hell & not simply disappearing forever in the grave. Every spirit (of man) is accountable to God.
Q:In Re.14:10 we read that wine of wrath is poured out from heaven while in mid-air is cup of indignation. But the torment is felt on the earth with fire and brimstone. What does this signify"
A:The three divisions set forth in the covenant follow the will of God. " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness"(Ro.1:18). According to the command,"Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." These vials are seven in number, so the wrath of indignations cover up down and across. It just shows the cup of indignation is not severally administered to the disobedience but his entire volume, where instead of blessings he shall be tormented. The blessed are the first fruits following wherever the Lamb goes. They are with on mount Sion.(Re.14:1-4) Like Lazarus signifying "presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" we have the rich man in the Parable of Jesus in direct line of vision. "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."( Luke 16:26) This is the mid-air.
As with fowls in air and beasts of the field each division has its own motif. The last twoverses, "and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God./And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."(14:19-20) The command number Four tells the wine press has been trodden according to the word so 4x4x1000 gives it as the just desserts for the blood spilled by Israel since Abel. ("That upon you may come all the righteous blood"-Matt.23:35)
Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Read More...)
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Hebrews 10:26-31 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Read More...)
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Luke 16:19-31 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (Read More...)
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him
Hi Ronald. Thank you for those thoughts concerning this passage of Scripture. You asked whether the Luke 16:19-31 account was literal or simply a parable. I have tried to recall the many instances of Jesus' parables given us in the Gospels, & I find that in all of them, His parables are as you said, just "a simple story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson". So, even the Luke 16 account also fits that particular description: of a story with a lesson to be learned.
However, why I believe that this account does not entirely fit the description of a parable, is because Jesus is sharing very specifically of what takes place in the afterlife between certain people in a specified place. Apart from maybe Luke 10:30-37 (The Good Samaritan parable), where places are named (i.e. "from Jerusalem to Jericho"), I don't recall Jesus ever indicating where the events in His parables took place (e.g. concerning the lost coin, the sower in the field, ten virgins, the prodigal son, et al). And probably more importantly, in His parables, He never uses the names of people, as He did in Luke 16 (though the rich man's name was not given). Had he done so in any of His parables, His audience (specifically the religious leaders), could well have a good argument against Him as being a liar & a deceiver.
But here in Luke 16, Jesus takes the bold step to name the place (Hades), and the names of Lazarus & Abraham, something He correctly avoided in His other parables, which were, as you stated, just simple stories. Here, Jesus is giving sinners a glimpse into the afterlife (as pertaining to that point in time, pre-crucifixion/resurrection). I know nothing of Plato except what the Bible states & teaches, & to me, this place in Hades was certainly not a time & place of purification (purgatory), but of judgement, probably with those in-waiting for their judgement post-crucifixion. Onto Page 2.
Just some thoughts and questions we may study for understanding.
Jesus is speaking to, His disciples, publicans, and others but mainly to the Pharisees and scribes we see in Luke 16:14 that the Pharisees derided Him, they were ridiculing Him for what He said in Luke 16:1-18. In the context of Luke 16, the lesson was for the Pharisees and scribes about stewardship, love of riches, adultery, and no servant can serve two masters. The Pharisees were covetous, they flaunted their wealth and the seat of authority they had.
Is the same context continuing in Luke 16:19-31? Is this a literal story that happened to these two actual people? Is this a parable? The general definition of a parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus many times in the Gospels.
The rich man and Lazarus had bodies and were both fully aware of their surroundings. Does Scripture support this? What lesson can we learn from Jesus's story here? Do we miss what is in Luke 16:31? Is this about Lazarus or is Jesus telling them they still will not be persuaded after He is resurrected?
Do we receive our rewards before or after we are judged? When are we judged, is it as soon as we die or after Jesus returns and we are resurrected? What is this great chasm, is it real and people can talk back and forth, or is it because of the hardness and unbelief of their heart after death that the way of repentance and salvation is unpassable?
Some believe in purgatory, is this not a revision of celestial Hades from the writings of Plato? Is this what we see here in Luke 16 the dead go to heaven or hell? Does Scripture support that? Ecclesiastes 12:7 is this for all that has lived, saints and the lost, or just the saints? What is this spirit that goes back to God? Is it us, who we are, or is it the breath of life given to all living beings?
"and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."
The beast referred here is the same as the one mentioned in Re.11:7 "The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." He is associated with the martyrdom of the two witnesses, representing saints whose blood has been shed since Abel till the very end. They are also called prophets,(11:10) Prophecy was until John."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."( Luke 16:16). So we may these saints were mentioned specifically as an umbrella for all those who died for righteousness. Jesus says, "Behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:/That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar./Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Matt.23:34-36). He lays charge for their death on the doorstep of the nation. "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." (v.6) These witnesses are connected with the Word which went out of the mouth of God. By Law of Gradation they are graded, notwithstanding the successive generations from Adam onwards against the generation of Jesus Christ. On the other hand the beast arising out of the bottomless pit of from the sea(13:1) whether scarlet coloured or as the one mentioned in 13:1 are all sons of perdition whose power is derived from Satan.
Nation of Israel is the mystery, sins of Babylon are the sins of Israel, vice versa.
Hello Tdianne. Just to give you two further portions of Scripture to add to brother S. Spencer's reply, please look at Luke 23:42,43 and Luke 16:19-31. The first speaks about the criminal hanging next to Jesus on the Cross, who turned to Jesus for salvation. And Jesus' Word of assurance to him was that upon his death he would join Jesus in Heaven. The criminal's body would lie in a grave or be burned, but his spirit would return to God & an eternity in Heaven because of his faith.
And in Luke 16, Jesus gives a real account of what takes place in the after life, prior to His death on the Cross to pay for our sins. Both the rich man & the beggar Lazarus had died and both ended up in Hell, one in a place of eternal suffering & the other in a place of comfort & rest. Both were very much conscious of their surroundings, their pain & the reason for being where they were sent; with the plea by the rich man to have his five brothers alerted to this awful destiny, that they might repent before it was too late.
So both these accounts, even by the witness of Jesus Himself, shows us that our bodies might lie in the grave, or even not exist over the passage of time, but the real you (your spirit) which was once clothed in an ageing deteriorating body, moves instantly to a destiny appointed by God. If one is 'absent in the body' (i.e. our spirit has left they body), then that spirit, if saved through Jesus' shed Blood, goes immediately into the Lord's Presence. And that is why the Apostle Paul was assured in his spirit that the transition from death to his presence with the Lord was instantaneous ( 2 Corinthians 5:6-8). And he also told the Philippian believers ( Philippians 1:21-24) that he longed to be with Christ, but his work on Earth had not finished & also his care of the Church. But he was ready to go at any time the Lord called him, so even persecution & resulting death would mean an early entrance into Heaven. A great joy for him - and should be for us who believe.
Luke 16:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
The word hell here is the word, Hades. There is actually only one place in the Bible that is actually Hell, and that's the lake of fire in the book of Revelation, the final destination. In fact, Hades will be emptied out into the lake of fire. Hades, the word Hades means the place of unseen spirits. No physical body, just spirits.
Luke 17:1 - Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Literally in the Greek, He's saying that it's impossible not to offend people. But woe unto him, through whom they come!
Even though it's impossible not to offend people, we are still responsible. Now the word offense is the word SCANDALON, where we get our word scandal from.
And it is the name of the trap string that holds up a box. If an animal comes in, you pull the trap string, and the box falls down on the animal and catches the animal. And it's called an offense.
That is to say when we do things to trap people or cause them to go down the wrong road, at least from a spiritual Christian standpoint, that's what He is talking about. It doesn't mean if you hurt my feelings or if you do something to rattle my nerves. That has nothing to do with offenses.
It has to do with allowing people to go down a trail where they will be trapped in, and it will be a road of destruction. For a Christian, it means that you guide people down the wrong road and into a trap, and it is not the road to Christ. It is not the truth.
Luke 16:14 - And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Where it says, "and they derided him," literally they scoffed at him. The Greek word means they turned up their nose at Him. That is a pretty good religious indignation, is it not? They were covetous and they heard the Lord say this and they were all upset because most of what they did was for money.
Luke 16:17 - And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Again, this is something we don't catch from out English text. The word "tittle" is a little horn. If you have ever seen Hebrew script, they put little art objects, little horns on the letters, and He is saying not one of these little end pieces are going to break off. Everything is going to happen of the law. It will not fail.
Luke 16:19 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and the term "clothed" is what is called the Imperfect Tense. He was continuously clothed in purple and fine linen.
Purple represented the most expensive clothing and fine linen. And he fared sumptuously every day: Literally "he partied according to the daytime." This went on all day long, everyday one big party.
Luke 16:20 - And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, a real person that actually lived. He was a beggar, in the lowest of human conditions. You have the rich man who is in the highest of conditions; and you have the beggar named Lazarus who is in the worst of conditions, which was laid at his gate.
The tense shows that this is a continuous habit every day, and he was full of sores. These are ulcerated sores or boils all over his body. So, he was laid at the gate of the rich man. He is full of sores.
Luke 15:15 - And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
And he went and joined himself. Now the term "himself" is a reflexive pronoun and that is not in the Greek text. It's literally a passive voice. He was joined up with.
In other words, he was the victim. He didn't do any joining, the world took him in. And the word for "joined" is the word for glue. Just to show you the bond that has been made between him and the world.
He went out and the world bonded itself to him to be a citizen of that country; What made it worse is that he went away to a faraway country to be a citizen of another country. This would be a Gentile.
Picture yourself as a Jewish person, a Jewish boy run away in rebellion, finding yourself in this condition, so some people take you in.
Now you are working for a Gentile, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. These are the worst of the unclean animals. Jewish people don't even like to touch pigs or hogs. He's been sent in to feed the swine.
Luke 16:9 - And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Mammon is from an Aramaic word, MAMMONA. Most translate it as having to do with money. But it literally has to do with everything in the physical world, including aspirations for what the physical world has to offer.
That includes if you have got dreams of a career, and you're putting that ahead of the things of the Lord. You are not seeking His will. Anything that has to do with this physical world is MAMMONA, and it is the MAMMONA of unrighteousness. Every single thing in this physical world is unrighteous.
If I was there I would ask Abraham, "Are you sure that they will not repent if they see their brother resurrected from the dead? Are you absolutely sure? Because it seems to me that they could not ignore such a thing"
Sometime Jesus resurrected another man called Lazarus, Martha's and Mary's brother. So did the Pharisees and Sadducees believe and repente?
"10But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus" ( John 12 10-11)
It seems Abraham was absolutely right.
GBU
Your quoting 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 is particularly clear. You have shared that these verses apply to the time of the resurrection of our dead bodies. But as I read it, Paul is essentially telling us that if we are alive ("at home in the body"), we are not in the Lord's presence ("absent from the Lord"). We can only be alive or dead; if alive, our spirit within us gives us life; if dead, our spirit departs our bodies that causes death.
So Paul is "groaning" over this matter, longing for departure from this life that he might be with his Lord. There isn't any intermediate state or any length of time in Paul's writing between death and life - it speaks of one or the other: either we are alive with our spirit or dead without the spirit. We can't be dead with our spirit in-house, and awaiting the resurrection. Or, we could even ask, 'why would Paul even want to depart this life and then remain in the grave for an indeterminate length of time?' His longing was to be with Jesus immediately upon his death, thus he looked forward to it.
To your answer to your question: "when will we be absent from this body?" this is at the resurrection; my understanding (as given above) is 'our absence from this body is at our death'. Every blessing.
And this poverty also aligns with the account Jesus gave in Luke 16:19-31, where the (physically) poor man Lazarus who probably died a miserable, lonely death, enjoyed the comforts of Paradise, whereas the rich man who gave no thought for others, suffered in excruciating pain. How do these two accounts compare to what Jesus also speaks about: to the New Birth ( John 3:3), of the repenting broken publican and the self-righteous Pharisee ( Luke 18:10-14), or even the publican Zaccheus who under conviction, changed his sinful behavior ( Luke 19:1-10)? All these accounts, including Matthew 5:3, were given by Jesus to those of Israel still under the Old Covenant of the Law. And the Law required that people dealt righteously with one another, looking out for his brother in need ( Deuteronomy 15:7,8) and not to steal from another ( Leviticus 19:11). Jesus not only reminded them of the Law but that (in the case of Nicodemus, John 3:3), that man would need to be born again by the Holy Spirit. This could only happen after Jesus' Death and Resurrection and the giving of His Spirit to all who would believe on Him. Nicodemus should have known about this ( John 3:9,10, cf Ezekiel 11:19,20, Ezekiel 36:26,27).
So the 'poor in spirit' (as the other Beatitudes) are a reflection of this new nature, bringing out the qualities in a believer, that come from a new revived spirit in him, given by God's Spirit under the New Covenant.
Now I want to reiterate (not a great linguistic way to start a sentence) what I said earlier. The idea of heaven scripturally is an army of God's people or as Hebrews mentions a great "cloud of witnesses" ( Hebrews 12:1). The idea is the whole is greater than the sum of its parts; the focus is being a functional part of the Body of Christ. Many have gotten into detailed descriptions of mansions in heaven; flowers and all sorts of other stuff involving personal visitations of loved ones. I am convinced that now as well as after the Rapture and the Tribulation period that God's people are also in prayer in heaven for those still on earth. This may fly in the face of some theologians out there and I need to make it abundantly clear we do NOT have privy to the prayer and conversations there. We CAN get closer to their walk in the Spirit if we draw closer to God through His intercession and wisdom gained as to how to pursue wisdom and draw nearer as we mature.
We can; no doubt go to the scriptures describing heaven and elaborate on the subject; and can't entirely discount certain things some may claim to have revealed. We need to remember that Lucifer himself; now fallen would draw our attention to certain imagery and patterns that encompass heaven if he can distract us from the Creator himself. This is an important point I don't want to skip over. Again; the emphasis in many so called experiences is on personal things not how the Lord glorifies Himself through His body of believers. The lack of fear of being in His presence is a big issue as well as the purposes that He has in mind for us once we enter into glory as kings and priests.
You could probably only name a few who aren't fixated on their own kingdom and moneymaking ventures selling books about experiences or paid big bucks to speak on such experiences. Luke 16:31 shows that anyone; lost or saved who comes back from the dead isn't enough to save.
I have shared Christ many times, both in my country and other lands while in ministry. If all the Bible told me was that unbelievers after death would simply perish in the earth, or even suffer for a time & disappear, then I would have no reason at all to warn others or share the Gospel. Is it because that these unfortunate ones would simply be annihilated and not have a part in Christ's Kingdom that is concerning you, or should it be of concern that the Gospel message is preached to save people from an eternal hell because of their sins?
As well, it would be wrong to think that "the idea of eternal hell fire goes back to paganism and not Christianity". Not at all, or else it could said that Jesus was also influenced by pagan beliefs. Rather, consider Matthew 13:40-42; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:22-25. These were Jesus' Words and He as the Son of God would not pander to earthly thought or wisdom. If eternal hell is not preached as a necessary part of our Gospel message, we have failed to give out the pure Gospel of Christ. If eternal hell is not a reality, then there is no reason at all to share the message of Love & Hope that can only be found in the Son of God - for if man will simply die and disappear, we may as well stay smug & indifferent in our homes, caring not for the lost; after all they just die & suffer no consequence for their sins.
The concept of total depravity; of course is an attempt to find a definition that fits best the admittedly appalling condition of the human heart as seen in Jeremiah 17:9. Whether we banter about decrying our hopeless condition because of a doctrinal assent of the situation or it is because the love of God constrains us ( 2 Corinthians 5:14) may sound the same on the outside; but it makes all the difference in reaching lost souls in the inside. One only needs to grasp Isaiah 6:5 and other verses on those prophets that saw God's presence and glory to see that this is a default reaction for all men to have. The world at large; of course scanters off in fear; or as Revelation 6:15-17.
Many today are shielded and have a temporary reprieve; as it were who hang around Christians; whether professing faith or not.
The going may be good for now; not to mention having people around who can help out in a pinch; but once the Bride of Christ is raptured; no such protection will continue to exist.
Another concept I'd like to hammer home is that in regard to Predestination (and I have said this before) it is not so much what we do but the reasons for doing it. The world no doubt is enamored with those who give a lot to the poor; and who are influential and everyone seems to live by their own standards but conforms to what is acceptable which reminds us of the Pharisees in Luke 16:15. The Lord did say they would praise God for our good works ( Matthew 5:16). Since He also mentions in the beatitudes blessing those who curse us in the same chapter in verse 44 as well as in Luke's rendition we certainly don't expect praise for the reason we do things but for external actions by some; although in theory those in the body of Christ should recognize such attributes but those who are Godly usually aren't the prominent ones in the Church even genuine works. There are many who make a sideshow for greedy gain ( 1 Tim. 6:10)
Ugh got cut off again. I am determined whenever possible to rewrite things when this happens even if it is the stupidity of my pinkie finger pressing the wrong button for the umpteenth time...
Where was I? Oh yeah Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Romans 1:24. This is the END of the concept I was alluding to; namely the prosperity crowd out there whose leadership like Ananias and Sapphira aren't wiped out due to covetousness and outright lies as to where the money is going. I won't name names here a bit of research is evident. My point here is that they are left largely to their own devices; deceiving and being deceived ( 2 Tim. 3:13). I am sort of going backwards here but ultimately something that is innocuous like a piece of paper called cash (spoiler alert; in paper form it is backed by and worth nothing) is to be used for His glory not our own covetousness. That is something I am considering as I have been able to make some money buying and selling silver coins as of late. It is wise to hold on to some of these items; but the admonitions in James about the silver and gold cankering in the last days should be a warning to us all; if not in the Tribulation perhaps before that with a worldwide currency it will be either illegal to own it or it will be declared worthless in a worldwide monetary standard. Food for thought...
Luke 16:12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
If we save money and increment deliberately toward missions; childhood adoption and other needs God can bless it.
This question isn't about life after resurrection but about what happens after our bodies die. Many beliefs and ideas exist about what occurs when we die physically. Is there a part of us that is immortal and will never cease to exist? If so, what is the meaning of death? Is death metaphorical?
Some say that when a Christian dies, they are immediately taken to heaven, where they live forever in God's presence. Some believe that when people die, they go to Hades, the realm of the dead, which has two sections: one called paradise or Abraham's bosom for the saved, and another place of torment for the lost.
Some also believe in purgatory, and many other religions believe in an afterlife where the spirit or soul is immortal and never ceases to exist. By saying our spirit or soul is immortal, does that go against the resurrection of the dead?
If, when we die, we go to paradise or a fiery torment, where we have a body and are fully conscious of our surroundings, as in the parable Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31, or Luke 23:43, some interpret that Jesus and the thief were in paradise that same day. This supports the idea that Jesus went into Hades, emptied Paradise, and carried them to heaven.
If that happened, why would He leave David in his tomb? Peter says at Pentecost, 50 days after Jesus resurrected, Acts 2:29, Acts 2:30-35. We see what Jesus said in John 5:25-26, and this happens in Matthew 27:50-53, when Jesus cried out, people came out of their graves and appeared to many. The word resurrection in vs 53 warrants study. In John 5:26-29, this has not happened yet, but they are resurrected from their graves.
1 Corinthians 15:52-55.
Just a few thoughts.
God bless,
RLW
In the OT, we read of Hell (Sheol) in several places (e.g. Psalm 30:3, understood as 'the grave'; or Psalm 9:17, as a place of suffering). When Jesus even spoke of it (Hades: Luke 16:22-24), it seems that there was a temporal place of suffering or lack of it before Christ's sacrifice for sins. Just a thought: the righteous from the OT (as Abraham was one & was quoted by Jesus), though Abraham's body was still in the grave, his soul/spirit was in that part of Hades. This teaching may have been something new to the people of Jesus' Day, but it establishes the fact that the spirits of all people live on & are sent to a place appointed & not just to the grave. But after the victory was won at the Cross, those OT saints were justified & redeemed (those who waited in hope of God's deliverance/Messiah for them).
As bro. Jesse pointed out, hell (the place of eternal suffering & torment) is really seen in Matthew 5:22 (Gk:"geenna"), & alluded to in Revelation 21:8. Though this hell (Gehenna) was created for the devil and his angels ( Matthew 25:41), sadly it will also be the future abode of all who have despised the LORD and His Word, rejecting His Salvation for their souls. This maybe what you're thinking of, where this Hell wasn't established at first, yet the warning of its future existence was given in the OT and in Jesus' Teaching. Thanks for your thoughts brother on this, for our mutual investigation & understanding.
c. (cont'd). Or, maybe the illustration that Jesus gave in Luke 12:42-48 is what some might believe are grades of punishment to sinners - the LORD God is always Just in all His doings.
d. Those of Israel who had not the redemptive of Work of Christ done for them as yet, were required to be obedient to God's Commands, fulfil the sacrifices which stayed God's Wrath from them and to await the coming full sacrifice of the Son of God. When they were obedient, this demonstrated a real faith in God's Word to them and God's Work for them. So in Hebrews chapter 11, we see a great number of men and women commended for their faith & martyrs' death, "these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" ( Hebrews 11:39,40). Both the OT & NT saints will be judged on the same basis: Faith (the one group looking forward to Calvary & the other looking back).
e. There are various beliefs as to when God's Judgements are given, at death or sometime after. From my reading of the Word, I believe there is an immediate judgement for all who die, whose spirit must leave this lifeless body. Jesus gave the account of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus at their respective deaths ( Luke 16:19-31). Here, Jesus (under the OT economy) showed the suffering of the one who lived carelessly & heartlessly in hades & the beggar who struggled to live, but given a place beside Abraham. This appears to be a temporary residence & punishment awaiting further judgement. For the believer post-Cross, our sins have already been judged & we have walked carefully before the LORD. Our only other judgement is given in 2 Corinthians 5:10, otherwise called the "Bema Seat Judgement". Here, our salvation is not in judgement (that was already accomplished at Calvary), but how we have lived this new life & used our gifts for the Lord. To Page 3.
On exploring a subject I have already undertaken in previous postings I will attempt to avoid total redundancy at least so as not to bore everyone and keep looking at different angles which at times seems to be helpful.
In this posting I would like everyone to clear their minds on what they consider free will or Predestination and look at things from the vantage point of 2 Corinthains 4:4; namely that Satan has effectively blinded folks. Let us think for a moment how a totally unbiased person with no preconceptions reacts to doctrinal truths and the spiritual world in general.
First of all we need to assess how baised we are already; not the least of which is the constant barrage of the enemy with the media blitz of all sorts of ungodly filth; and more subtle conditioning through advertising of finding contentment in material things; physical appearance and stature as this world thinks. Logically speaking; if someone can get past this obstacle to rational thought then the need is there to test what they hear against pure logic; which of course can be accomplished with proper apologetics; scripture reading and backed up by the archaelogical and historical data and information in other world literature. If we can also keep peer pressure from creeping in; many would see the strong evidence for scriptural validity.
Mere acknowledgment of course ain't enough. There has to be a real heart change; if not we only become more "religious" and find some sort of tenet or ritual to embrace whether hedonism or atheism or any other religion including Christianity but without power as 2 Timothy 3:5 states.
In all reality many are far too blinded to think impartially; so as Abraham said to the rich man in Hades even if someone came back from the dead they wouldn't believe ( Luke 16:31). And this was addressing those religious leaders who should have believed Moses and the Prophets but sought to kill the Messiah multiple times.
"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."
Blessings
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
Blessings
Scripture shows us that Jesus spent 3 days preaching to those in the underworld; and taking captive those held captive ( Eph. 4:8; 1 Peter 3:19; and Matthew 27:52-53 for further study on this and those who came out of their graves after the Resurrection.
The thief on the cross would be with Him that day in Paradise ( Luke 23:43) which made him unique in several ways; he would be the last or one of the last going there at death; as for now to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord ( 2 Cor. 5:8).
He would have been one who would spend the shortest time in Abraham's bosom or the "pleasant" side of Sheol and his soul at least would have been in heaven after He rose from the dead.
Therefore; there was a lot going on even though Christ's body "slept" in the tomb to use Biblical terminology from the KJV. When we consider all the unregenerate that Christ preached about His victory (it was too late obviously for their salvation) along with the multitudes of souls released from under the earth to either go to heaven or be temporarily appearing with new bodies on earth before that it is no small feat. This isn't even including all those fallen beings or offspring of giants mentioned in Genesis 6 that no doubt got wind of what was happening. We are reminded of the transfiguration just a short time before all of this where no doubt Moses was looking forward to the victory Christ was to attain for him as well as Elijah.
The Resurrection is something that; as I stated the other day the Shroud of Turin seems to indicate; but I don't want to focus on that; if only for the simple logic of Luke 16:31. We have the eyewitnesses of 500 or more people that saw Christ after His Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:6; Paul being the last one to see Him in his journey to Damascus; although we could include John seeing Him again in the visions of Revelation. There is a place for apologetics; but only the Spirit can transform a man (Rom12:2
Hope that helps.
Agape; Rich P
Part 4
Many people interpret Luke 16:19-31, the story of the rich man and Lazarus, as a literal account rather than a parable. However, in Mark 4:11 and Luke 8:10, Jesus explicitly states that He spoke to others in parables. We must consider the entirety of Scripture when evaluating this story, as I have referenced only a few relevant passages.
If this story were literal, it would imply that individuals receive their rewards immediately after death. This notion contradicts the rewards are given after the resurrection, as indicated in Revelation 22:12, Luke 14:13-14, 2 Timothy 4:8, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, along with what we see in Revelation 20:4.
What was the purpose of this story? Is it our choices, what we have faith in, God, or do we crave wealth, or do we have faith, and charity, 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. This story shows the rich man rich in worldly things, but poor in morality, and Lazarus the opposite. This story also points to Jesus' death and resurrection, Luke 16:31. We see that is what happened, they still rejected Jesus after He was hung on a cross and died, put in a tomb, rose from the grave, and spoke to them for 40 days, and it did not convince them.
See part 5
Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast intohellfire.
Where is hell now ? ?
Proverbs 15:24
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart fromhellbeneath.
Hell was inlarged when Jesus Christ took out all the Saints in Paradise .
Luke 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a greatgulffixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Apostle Paul was caught up in the spirit and saw paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:4
How that he was caught up intoparadise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Now we have to worry about death and hell being cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14
Anddeathandhellwere cast into the lake of fire. This is the seconddeath.
May we all believe that's there a hell in the center of earth where it's very hot .
Ray, in Christ Jesus 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
The gospel saves us from hell
Hi again Fuji. 1 Thessalonians 2:19. This ties in with 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". And then to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10.
When we place all these Scriptures together, considering that Paul was addressing the same matter in the one epistle, we can learn that he is speaking about the coming of the Lord. The believers are not only to wait expectantly for the Lord's Coming, but to be careful in their Christian living until that day - that day when they would be transformed & forever to be with their Lord.
But what happens if Paul (or us) die first, before Jesus comes? Though our bodies lie in the grave (or, not even exist in any substantial form), our spirits do return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). And we read of people alive beyond the grave ( Luke 16:19-31; Matthew 17:1-3 as examples). But when Jesus returns in the clouds for us, the dead (believers' bodies) arise first to meet him in the air, & those believers still alive will be caught up (Latin, rapio (rapture); Greek, Harpazo) to join the others in this great moment of joy & fulfilment of our hopes & longings to be with our Savior forever. To this end, Paul (in 1 Thessalonians 2:19), is stating that when Jesus comes, he (Paul) will personally rejoice greatly to see his beloved Thessalonian believers also come into Christ's Presence, as his crown for his labors amongst them. Onto Page 2.
And a couple of Scriptures to support this could be Matthew 17:1-3: the account of Moses & Elijah, now long dead, appeared with Jesus on the mount. Clearly, these men of old were recognizable & no doubt the whole scene of a transfigured Jesus & the faces & voices of these venerable men, would have held the disciples there in great awe & wonder.
And then we have Luke 16:19-31, where Jesus gives this account of Lazarus at Abraham's side & the rich man in great pain in Hades. The point being, that Jesus states that each of these men were able to see each other in the after-life, recognizing who they were, & also plead for help. Yet, there certainly is much mystery surrounding these revelations; for which we are not given any further information.
Therefore, if we had only John 3:16 to understand the afterlife (whether it exists or not), then we could well believe that 'perish' clearly means a complete cessation of life, as in someone (the body) who perishes in a house fire or perishes by drowning. But in relation to the Scriptures, we know that God has given us a spirit & that spirit is identifies who we are, given life by God, with an outer covering (a body) to house it, yet the spirit can never perish (die). Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ecclesiastes 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
And then we have the Judgement of God upon all, where those who belong in God's family, living a life consecrated to Him, are eternally secure from damnation, whereas all unbelievers (and their spirits can never be destroyed), suffer under God's condemnation. If only death was our final punishment for rejecting Christ, then we all still have to die as those in sinful, corrupt bodies; none can escape. This is a defective Gospel as most would prefer to cease to exist without any punishment & live life to the full, not answerable to God. But Christ's Sacrifice was to redeem lost sinful souls, not from death, but from God's eternal Punishment. Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 13:49,50; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
Just a few Scriptures to show the Truth of an Eternal suffering in Hell & not simply disappearing forever in the grave. Every spirit (of man) is accountable to God.
Q:In Re.14:10 we read that wine of wrath is poured out from heaven while in mid-air is cup of indignation. But the torment is felt on the earth with fire and brimstone. What does this signify"
A:The three divisions set forth in the covenant follow the will of God. " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness"(Ro.1:18). According to the command,"Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." These vials are seven in number, so the wrath of indignations cover up down and across. It just shows the cup of indignation is not severally administered to the disobedience but his entire volume, where instead of blessings he shall be tormented. The blessed are the first fruits following wherever the Lamb goes. They are with on mount Sion.(Re.14:1-4) Like Lazarus signifying "presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" we have the rich man in the Parable of Jesus in direct line of vision. "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."( Luke 16:26) This is the mid-air.
As with fowls in air and beasts of the field each division has its own motif. The last twoverses, "and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God./And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."(14:19-20) The command number Four tells the wine press has been trodden according to the word so 4x4x1000 gives it as the just desserts for the blood spilled by Israel since Abel. ("That upon you may come all the righteous blood"-Matt.23:35)
Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Psalms 145:20 - The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Hebrews 10:26-31 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Read More...)
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Luke 16:19-31 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (Read More...)
Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him
COME LORD JESUS
Hi Ronald. Thank you for those thoughts concerning this passage of Scripture. You asked whether the Luke 16:19-31 account was literal or simply a parable. I have tried to recall the many instances of Jesus' parables given us in the Gospels, & I find that in all of them, His parables are as you said, just "a simple story to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson". So, even the Luke 16 account also fits that particular description: of a story with a lesson to be learned.
However, why I believe that this account does not entirely fit the description of a parable, is because Jesus is sharing very specifically of what takes place in the afterlife between certain people in a specified place. Apart from maybe Luke 10:30-37 (The Good Samaritan parable), where places are named (i.e. "from Jerusalem to Jericho"), I don't recall Jesus ever indicating where the events in His parables took place (e.g. concerning the lost coin, the sower in the field, ten virgins, the prodigal son, et al). And probably more importantly, in His parables, He never uses the names of people, as He did in Luke 16 (though the rich man's name was not given). Had he done so in any of His parables, His audience (specifically the religious leaders), could well have a good argument against Him as being a liar & a deceiver.
But here in Luke 16, Jesus takes the bold step to name the place (Hades), and the names of Lazarus & Abraham, something He correctly avoided in His other parables, which were, as you stated, just simple stories. Here, Jesus is giving sinners a glimpse into the afterlife (as pertaining to that point in time, pre-crucifixion/resurrection). I know nothing of Plato except what the Bible states & teaches, & to me, this place in Hades was certainly not a time & place of purification (purgatory), but of judgement, probably with those in-waiting for their judgement post-crucifixion. Onto Page 2.
Just some thoughts and questions we may study for understanding.
Jesus is speaking to, His disciples, publicans, and others but mainly to the Pharisees and scribes we see in Luke 16:14 that the Pharisees derided Him, they were ridiculing Him for what He said in Luke 16:1-18. In the context of Luke 16, the lesson was for the Pharisees and scribes about stewardship, love of riches, adultery, and no servant can serve two masters. The Pharisees were covetous, they flaunted their wealth and the seat of authority they had.
Is the same context continuing in Luke 16:19-31? Is this a literal story that happened to these two actual people? Is this a parable? The general definition of a parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus many times in the Gospels.
The rich man and Lazarus had bodies and were both fully aware of their surroundings. Does Scripture support this? What lesson can we learn from Jesus's story here? Do we miss what is in Luke 16:31? Is this about Lazarus or is Jesus telling them they still will not be persuaded after He is resurrected?
Do we receive our rewards before or after we are judged? When are we judged, is it as soon as we die or after Jesus returns and we are resurrected? What is this great chasm, is it real and people can talk back and forth, or is it because of the hardness and unbelief of their heart after death that the way of repentance and salvation is unpassable?
Some believe in purgatory, is this not a revision of celestial Hades from the writings of Plato? Is this what we see here in Luke 16 the dead go to heaven or hell? Does Scripture support that? Ecclesiastes 12:7 is this for all that has lived, saints and the lost, or just the saints? What is this spirit that goes back to God? Is it us, who we are, or is it the breath of life given to all living beings?
God bless,
RLW
"and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns."
The beast referred here is the same as the one mentioned in Re.11:7 "The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." He is associated with the martyrdom of the two witnesses, representing saints whose blood has been shed since Abel till the very end. They are also called prophets,(11:10) Prophecy was until John."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."( Luke 16:16). So we may these saints were mentioned specifically as an umbrella for all those who died for righteousness. Jesus says, "Behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:/That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar./Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Matt.23:34-36). He lays charge for their death on the doorstep of the nation. "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." (v.6) These witnesses are connected with the Word which went out of the mouth of God. By Law of Gradation they are graded, notwithstanding the successive generations from Adam onwards against the generation of Jesus Christ. On the other hand the beast arising out of the bottomless pit of from the sea(13:1) whether scarlet coloured or as the one mentioned in 13:1 are all sons of perdition whose power is derived from Satan.
Nation of Israel is the mystery, sins of Babylon are the sins of Israel, vice versa.
And in Luke 16, Jesus gives a real account of what takes place in the after life, prior to His death on the Cross to pay for our sins. Both the rich man & the beggar Lazarus had died and both ended up in Hell, one in a place of eternal suffering & the other in a place of comfort & rest. Both were very much conscious of their surroundings, their pain & the reason for being where they were sent; with the plea by the rich man to have his five brothers alerted to this awful destiny, that they might repent before it was too late.
So both these accounts, even by the witness of Jesus Himself, shows us that our bodies might lie in the grave, or even not exist over the passage of time, but the real you (your spirit) which was once clothed in an ageing deteriorating body, moves instantly to a destiny appointed by God. If one is 'absent in the body' (i.e. our spirit has left they body), then that spirit, if saved through Jesus' shed Blood, goes immediately into the Lord's Presence. And that is why the Apostle Paul was assured in his spirit that the transition from death to his presence with the Lord was instantaneous ( 2 Corinthians 5:6-8). And he also told the Philippian believers ( Philippians 1:21-24) that he longed to be with Christ, but his work on Earth had not finished & also his care of the Church. But he was ready to go at any time the Lord called him, so even persecution & resulting death would mean an early entrance into Heaven. A great joy for him - and should be for us who believe.
Luke 16:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
The word hell here is the word, Hades. There is actually only one place in the Bible that is actually Hell, and that's the lake of fire in the book of Revelation, the final destination. In fact, Hades will be emptied out into the lake of fire. Hades, the word Hades means the place of unseen spirits. No physical body, just spirits.
Luke 17:1 - Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
Literally in the Greek, He's saying that it's impossible not to offend people. But woe unto him, through whom they come!
Even though it's impossible not to offend people, we are still responsible. Now the word offense is the word SCANDALON, where we get our word scandal from.
And it is the name of the trap string that holds up a box. If an animal comes in, you pull the trap string, and the box falls down on the animal and catches the animal. And it's called an offense.
That is to say when we do things to trap people or cause them to go down the wrong road, at least from a spiritual Christian standpoint, that's what He is talking about. It doesn't mean if you hurt my feelings or if you do something to rattle my nerves. That has nothing to do with offenses.
It has to do with allowing people to go down a trail where they will be trapped in, and it will be a road of destruction. For a Christian, it means that you guide people down the wrong road and into a trap, and it is not the road to Christ. It is not the truth.
Luke 16:14 - And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Where it says, "and they derided him," literally they scoffed at him. The Greek word means they turned up their nose at Him. That is a pretty good religious indignation, is it not? They were covetous and they heard the Lord say this and they were all upset because most of what they did was for money.
Luke 16:17 - And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Again, this is something we don't catch from out English text. The word "tittle" is a little horn. If you have ever seen Hebrew script, they put little art objects, little horns on the letters, and He is saying not one of these little end pieces are going to break off. Everything is going to happen of the law. It will not fail.
Luke 16:19 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and the term "clothed" is what is called the Imperfect Tense. He was continuously clothed in purple and fine linen.
Purple represented the most expensive clothing and fine linen. And he fared sumptuously every day: Literally "he partied according to the daytime." This went on all day long, everyday one big party.
Luke 16:20 - And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, a real person that actually lived. He was a beggar, in the lowest of human conditions. You have the rich man who is in the highest of conditions; and you have the beggar named Lazarus who is in the worst of conditions, which was laid at his gate.
The tense shows that this is a continuous habit every day, and he was full of sores. These are ulcerated sores or boils all over his body. So, he was laid at the gate of the rich man. He is full of sores.
Luke 15:15 - And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
And he went and joined himself. Now the term "himself" is a reflexive pronoun and that is not in the Greek text. It's literally a passive voice. He was joined up with.
In other words, he was the victim. He didn't do any joining, the world took him in. And the word for "joined" is the word for glue. Just to show you the bond that has been made between him and the world.
He went out and the world bonded itself to him to be a citizen of that country; What made it worse is that he went away to a faraway country to be a citizen of another country. This would be a Gentile.
Picture yourself as a Jewish person, a Jewish boy run away in rebellion, finding yourself in this condition, so some people take you in.
Now you are working for a Gentile, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. These are the worst of the unclean animals. Jewish people don't even like to touch pigs or hogs. He's been sent in to feed the swine.
Luke 16:9 - And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
Mammon is from an Aramaic word, MAMMONA. Most translate it as having to do with money. But it literally has to do with everything in the physical world, including aspirations for what the physical world has to offer.
That includes if you have got dreams of a career, and you're putting that ahead of the things of the Lord. You are not seeking His will. Anything that has to do with this physical world is MAMMONA, and it is the MAMMONA of unrighteousness. Every single thing in this physical world is unrighteous.