Discuss Hebrews 1 Page 9

Thank you for your quick reply. God bless you and your loved ones.

The answer to your question is there in Genesis 1:3: "And God SAID". Out of God, came forth His WORD in speech, to create Light. The question is: how does this WORD fit into the Being of God? Is the WORD a part of God as His Spirit is? Or do you see some differentiation? I see that God, His Word & His Spirit are infused as One, indivisible & completely of Spirit Being (not of flesh). Therefore, if that Word, which was from the beginning, with God & was God ( Jn 1:1), was specially sent to this World clothed with flesh to bring God's Word to His people & ultimately to lay down His Life for them & us, then Who are we speaking about?

So to specifically answer your question: "Who spoke it God or Jesus?" It was God through Jesus, the pre-incarnate Word of God - the Word uttered by God. Then when Jesus, God's Word, came to this Earth, God no longer spoke to His people as He did before, but now "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he MADE the worlds" ( Hebrews 1:2). Made the worlds? Yes, His Word that was uttered in Genesis 1 was engaged in God's creative Work ( Colossians 1:15-17).

And No, this is not RCC doctrine - we hold fully to the Bible, to apostolic teaching & the beliefs held by the early Church.

The Book you referred to is considered a part of the Deuterocanonical or Apocryphal Books that were rejected by those who formed the Canon of Scripture (i.e. the books we have now in the Bible). Those Books were rejected for several reasons, some of which were their authorship, hence authority, some glaring errors found within, references that were historically inaccurate, etc. However, the Roman Catholic Church has included most of them within their Scriptures & use them equally with the rest of the Bible. But by doing this, we then see their justification to pray to the dead, having Mary intercede for them, worshipping angels, alms-giving as also atoning for sins, etc. So, even though there could be much we could learn from those books, I believe with such errors found within, I have nothing to do with them, rather seeking understanding from the Scriptures I have now & if some answers are not learned, then to admit the Bible's silence & my ignorance.

After that quick outline of the Apocrypha, The Wisdom of Solomon likewise has shown some discrepancies. For example, in Wisdom 7:26, "For she (Wisdom) is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness." This verse alone elevates Wisdom to such a high level that even the Son of God might falter at it. Compare Hebrews 1:3 concerning Christ.

Wisdom 9:18, "For so the ways of them which lived on the earth were reformed, and men were taught the things that are pleasing unto thee, and were saved through wisdom." Whereas the Bible says that salvation comes by faith, a gift of God to those whom He calls, justifies, and sanctifies ( Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 8:30).

It is understood that Solomon didn't write this book, but was a writing from the 1st or 2nd Century BC. The early Church (& the RCC) accepted this from the declaration in the Muratorian fragment, which states that it was the 'friends of Solomon' who wrote this in his (Solomon's) honour.

Once saved always saved leaves out the work of transformation or sanctification which is necessary for heaven as Matthew 7 clearly shows those still working iniquity/sinning will be told to depart because they did not allow Christ His rightful place upon the throne of their heart to circumcise it, or cut the sin out which is the transformation we need to enter heaven for Revelation says those who keep the commandments (they are transformed from law breaker to law keeper ) they will enter in.

We who are born again of Gods spirit i.e. christians will be saved from the wrath or tribulation to come because Christ will come back to gather Us His body the born again believers.

Hi Alison from Mzansi. I believe you may both be slightly off course. Some Christians will go up in the Rapture while others will be left behind to go through the tribulation. Read Revelation 13 where it starts with the beast coming out of the sea. This takes place at the beginning of the tribulation. The overcoming Christians have already been raptured. Later in Rev 13vs7 the saints make war with the beast and the beast overcomes them. These saints missed the rapture because they have not overcome their carnal fleshly nature. Also in Rev 15vs2 they get victory over the beast and image and mark. Again this happens during the tribulation on earth (After rapture). So it is not either or but rather some will be raptured and some not. I will explain who goes in the rapture and who doesn't qualify if you respond to this reply.

GL from WC (RSA)

Hebrews 1:3

Hebrews 8:1

Hebrews 10:11-13

Hebrews 12:2

Luke 16:19

Mark 14:62

Romans 8:34

Ephesians 1:21

1 Peter 3:22

Acts 7:55

Colossians 3:1

These verses should be sufficient to show that the risen Jesus Christ is now at the Father's right Hand.

People need to read the Bible and quit making up stuff that they think will happen because that is what is going to come down just what the Bible says! Just tell people to read John 3 16 that verse tells you in a very very simple way what you need to do to make it to Heaven! Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and if you truly believe in Him you are going to live like God wants you to! All you have to do is be a Believer, so simple! It is so easy for me to believe in God and his Son Jesus Christ just by looking at this world and everything in it! It did not just evolve like people say it was to complex for that! It was created by God and just say look at the Sun. It has burned at the same temp. from the day it was created also and has never ran out or low on fuel since that day it was created! Amen!!! I hope so much that I am pleasing God because I want to go to Heaven and just think of the best day you have ever had on earth ever and times that day by one million and that is what it will be like in Heaven and then some!! Amen!

Comments by Alex about the Rapture, We are gona be caught away but its in the spritual realm ,Remember John said he was in the Spirit on the LORDS day implies he was in the Spiritual realm but he was actually on the Isle of Patmos according to his body.If we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. When Jesus said unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in. The Kingdom of God will come as the new birth, a lil Child.The very fact that the Kingdom of God is gonna come and be with in us ( sinners ) is the real rapture and its gonna come as a birth, a heavenly birth as we have borne the image of the EARTHY we must also bear ( birth ) the image of the heavenly a new innerman which has to be born in us via that good seed the WORD. This is the real rapture that Jesus spoke about when he said unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil child you will in no wise enter there in, he was in essence saying we are gona birth our king and thats y Jesus always refered to himself as the Son of Man . There is BABY Christ in our future which can only come via his seed the WORD and that child is the Kingdom ,The Child of Promise. Thy kingdom come thy will be done is in essence th Rapture but it comes as a birth ,unless ya receive the KINGDOM OF GOD AS A LIL CHILD IS THE RAPTURE BUT ITS ALSO A BIRTH . A heavenly birth. We don't need to go anywhere Jesus plainly tells us the Kingdom is gona be within you, Its simply in the spritual realm as Jesus said that which is Born of the SPIRIT IS SPIRIT THATS THE H.G. the Kingdom of God and unless ya receive the KINGDOM OF GOD as a lil child. A lil child implies a birth . After the woman gives birth in verse 10 John says Now is come Salvation and the Kingdom of God and the power of his Christ ( her child ) which is the H.G. that is gona rule all nations as Jesus spoke about. When he the spirit of truth is come which is the H.G. TH MANCHILD IMPLING MANKINDS FRUIT UNTO GOD. GB

If I may. The kingdom is always changing. We who believe the word know these things because of history. The prophets declared , things and events in the old testament. We see these words also from John, and apostle are the revelation, are the compilation of events that would come to pass at sometime, and or in sometime! Gods word is eternal, and God wants all people to be saved. Because of this ,our God is longsuffering and wishes non to perish. Enoch and Elijah, were translated into heaven bodily. The new testament has described this to happen again ,"one taken and another left". Christ also teaches of his coming, while he is ever present with us. Understanding his words are paramount! we should add nothing to it nor take away from it, more than it says. Christ wants us to watch, to be patient, and you to know ,that you are in the palm of His hand! Is this not enough for you and I to serve Him?

Alison, this is a huge subject to deal with here, especially to cite supporting Scriptures. May I suggest you refer to this Site: calvarycedarrapids dot com & then go to their Media Tab & then Downloads. As you search there, you should see an option for Rapture/End Times & then, Pre-Tribulation Rapture. A very comprehensive lesson is given with plenty of supporting Scriptures. For your discussion with the SDA man, you may want to list the points down & their Scriptures & anything else that will help you in your discussion.

Now, there are plenty of fine believers that also hold to the other positions of Christ's Second Coming, also supporting their position with pertinent Scriptures. So we need to be open to the other's presentation, ask questions & follow through with research on what they share. The Lord bless you during your study & in your meeting.

Yes i hate to be Repititous but the Thief was baptised, made clean when he heard Jesus Words, Remember Jesus said you are made Clean by the WORD i have spoken unto you,abide in me and i in you . If any man hear my Words and keeps them my father and i will come and take our abode with him. k later

Alex's comments about the Thief on the Cross. He was baptised when he heard Jesus Words, remember Jesus said you are made Clean by hearing My Words . That i have spoken unto you, Aka as the Water of the WORD . That living water That Jesus explained to the woman at the well. Yes the well is deep . But Jesus was the WORD made flesh and blood thus its no wonder that the thief was made clean by hearing the WORD. Remember one of the writters says the Church has to be made clean by the water of the Word, that living water is simply the H.G . Remember John said when Jesus spoke of that living water it was the Spirit he speake of. The H.G. was not yet given b/c that Christ was not yet glorified. Thats y the Priest use to apply the blood to the tip of the right ear, It was prophetic that when the lamb of God wd come we wd be made Clean by hearing his Words which ARE spirit and life . the H.G. Our right ear is simply hearing and understanding his voice. divine understanding ,Flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you but my father in heaven which is divine understanding that living water etc. That good seed is sown in our hearts by hearing, As Mary was not penatrated by anyman but only by hearing was the good seed sown in her Womb Thats y she said be it unto me according to thy Word then was the word made flesh and blood, The living word not the written word ,as there is no blood in the written word but only in the living WORD. When Jesus said my words are spirit and life thats the living word that was made spirit and life, flesh and blood.But he wants to impregnate all of humanity with his precious seed the living Word. Thats y the prophets saw the world in travail and birth pains simply b/c of that good seed the Word ,the field being the world, our hearts being womb that is gonna birth a BABY CHRIST which is the H.G. the Child of PROMISE She brought forth a man Child that is gonna rule ALL NATIONS. WHICH IS TH H.G. that Child of promise thus he is trul the son of man

Hi John. You are correct to a degree but you don't have the complete picture. True, the thief on the cross wasn't baptized. He only received the blood. To this day that thief will remain a baby Christian as he never had the opportunity to grow in God. There are different levels in God's kingdom meant for different degrees of saved Christian. The thief went to paradise. this is only one level you can grow to in God. But if you want to receive the prize of the high calling ( Phil 3:14 and 1 Cor 9:24) you have to go beyond the gifts which is the common salvation ( Rom 10:9-10) and grow according to the tabernacle which includes baptism.When you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour according to Romans 10:9-10. He washes away our sins and creates a new BABY heart within our old heart. This NEW heart is perfect and cannot sin. ( Eph 4:24) Out old heart doesn't disappear automatically or immediately ( Mark 7:21). The journey now starts where the old heart has to die and the new heart has to grow. Only as we crucify the old heart (the flesh) daily can the new heart grow within us. Paul said die daily". This is why many Christians still exhibit anger, resentment, gossiping, betrayal" they haven't repented and died daily. It is a process of repenting, not an instantaneous gift of the spirit.

This is the principal of growing in God according to Moses' tabernacle which has 7 pieces of furniture and is laid out in the form of a cross. It is a picture of the more perfect tabernacle which is Jesus. ( Heb 9:11). First is the brazen altar where the sacrifices were slain (Jesus) A picture of accepting Jesus blood sacrifice. After the Sacrifice was slain, Fire came forth from God and lit upon the sacrifice, which is a picture of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire. Also, in the outer Court was the Brazen Laver where the Priests washed once, outwardly, which is a picture of Water Baptism in the Name, Death, and Life of Jesus Christ. The Priests returned to this Laver, daily, t

When you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour according to Romans 10:9-10. He washes away our sins and creates a new BABY heart within our old heart. This NEW heart is perfect and cannot sin. ( Eph 4:24) Out old heart doesn't disappear automatically or immediately ( Mark 7:21). The journey now starts where the old heart has to die and the new heart has to grow. Only as we crucify the old heart (the flesh) daily can the new heart grow within us. Paul said die daily". This is why many Christians still exhibit anger, resentment, gossiping, betrayal" they haven't repented and died daily. It is a process of repenting, not an instantaneous gift of the spirit.

This is the principal of growing in God according to Moses' tabernacle which has 7 pieces of furniture and is laid out in the form of a cross. It is a picture of the more perfect tabernacle which is Jesus. ( Heb 9:11). First is the brazen altar where the sacrifices were slain (Jesus) A picture of accepting Jesus blood sacrifice. After the Sacrifice was slain, Fire came forth from God and lit upon the sacrifice, which is a picture of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire. Also, in the outer Court was the Brazen Laver where the Priests washed once, outwardly, which is a picture of Water Baptism in the Name, Death, and Life of Jesus Christ. The Priests returned to this Laver, daily, to wash their hands and feet, which is a picture of dying daily to the fleshly, carnal nature within us. We today can return daily to the altar (repentance) and the laver (baptism) daily to be washed (cleansed) of our attitudes and flesh and receive fresh fire from God.

Linda, to answer your question simply put, no. Jesus said in ( John 3:3) "Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God." meaning that we must some how be reborn to go to heaven. Some will assert that ( John 3:5) shows that we must be baptized by water, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be saved, This is easily refuted with scripture. Remember God cannot lie ( Titus 1:2) Therefore, Scripture cannot contradict itself. If God required baptism for salvation, then Jesus Christ lied to the thief on the cross. ( Luke 23:43) Jesus IS God ( John 1:1). He CANNOT lie. God made the way to heaven very simple, so easy that even a child can understand and accept. It is not based on our works ( Ephesians 2:8-9) but on our faith in Christ and His FINISHED work on the cross. We must first understand that we are a sinner in need of a Savior. ( Romans 3:23) ... When we see that there is a penalty for our sin. ( Romans 6:23) That we cannot pay the penalty on our own, but Jesus Christ, loved us so much that He came, lived the perfect life, fulfilled the law, and became sin for us on the cross to pay our sin debt for us. ( Romans 5:8) Then believing the gospel by faith, we accept the GIFT of God, confess our belief in Him, and ask Him to save us. ( Romans 10:9-13) There are MEN who will take God's gift and want to say that in order to receive it you will need to do this or that, but whenever we add WORKS to the equation the GIFT ceases to be a gift. Repentance is a turning from self and a turning toward Christ.

When you except Christ, when you take him into your heart, this is your baptism! You will be baptized with fire. Your soul will identify immediately with his holy spirit! The actual water baptism as Christ commands is when you make it public! A public confession, before the world! Before the angels of God! Water baptism is a declaration that you have died and risen again in the spirit of Christ resurrection. It is not true that you are required to have water baptism! If it were true, we would have to physically die before we could receive the spirit of God! And that is not true! The spirit of God is very much alive! These things you will know when he comes for you.

Hi Linda, to answer question, no there is no requirement to be born again, when you accept Christ as your Lord and savior you are baptised, baptised means to be Identified with, you are put in the body of believers, Its the Lord that baptises you. water baptism is ritual, thats why it comes after you are converted.

Well First the Renewal starts in your Mind. You have to be reborn and understanding the true meaning of repentance. ( Acts 17:30). Then After He requires of us to be baptized by water and of the holy spirit. ( Matt 4:17, John 3:5)

Does God require that we be baptized to be born again?

The Son may not be God the Father, but He has all the attributes of the Father, which makes Him intrinsically & indivisibly part of the Godhead. After all, if the Word of God (that which proceeds from the Mouth of God), was given flesh (humanity), then it stands to reason that this Humanity (now called Jesus, God's Son) comes directly from the Godhead.

God could have done the same with His Spirit within Him, but the requirement for His Word that went out to His people (the Jews) by the prophets ( Hebrews 1:1,2), would now not only have God speaking directly to them rather than the prophets which they generally rejected, but that Word would even lay down His Life for them. And for this, Israel remains condemned by God for rejecting Him (i.e. the Father & Son).

"There is not a single verse that says Jesus is God the Son" bla bla bla Son of God.. Here does it say straight out GOD, Almight, Mighty GOD. This is not an eye problem but an heart problem for the deity of Yeshua The Messiah

1. Your throne, O God. Heb 1:8

2. Thy throne, O God. Ps 45:6

3. the Word was God. John 1:1

4. My Go.d John 20:28

5. The mighty. God Isa 9:6

6. God and Savior. Jesus Christ

7. the Lord God / the Almighty. Rev 1:8

8. God and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1:1

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy." Hebrews 1:8

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Psalm 45:6

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Pet 1:1

Hello Bob,

That is correct. I don't have a problem with people saying Jesus is God.

If you do then that's your issue. As my post was only to make peace. I do not call Jesus Christ the Father. Lots of other people do though so it's them you quarrel with I guess. I say the Father is in Jesus Christ and He in the Father. Just as our Lord states in John 14:10.

Yes the Father has authority over all. But you seem to put Jesus Christ on our level? God our Father has given all His authority to His Son Jesus Christ. He has all the power of the Father. You said to someone else "I agree that Jesus and the Father are One". How you interpret that is up to you.

Jesus Christ is the exact representation of the Father. As in Hebrews 1:2-3. God our Father is Spirit not human.

Yes I also would say Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father. I would also say the Father has given Him a throne also. Matthew 28:18, Matthew 25:31, Revelation 3:21

A couple verses showing the Oneness of God and Christ. Revelation 5:13, Revelation 22:1, Revelation 22:3

God Bless you.

You're correct, those particular terms are not found in the Bible; only Son of God or Spirit of God. However, could it be that those terms actually imply a similar meaning?

For example, I point out a car to you which is parked kerbside. I tell you, "That's my car". How do you understand me? In the normal way, you will immediately assume that the car belongs to me. But actually it doesn't belong to me, it belongs to a friend, from whom I have loaned it. So which is correct? In a sense, both are correct: the car is mine because I have the key to it & I drive it - so it could be that I own it or I took loan of it - it's still mine to get inside & drive it.

The point I'm making is that whether Jesus is described as 'the Son of God' or 'God's Son' or 'God the Son', can still have the same meaning only if the Scriptures spoken about Him, warrant it. If we didn't have John 1:1-14, John 20:28, Isaiah 9:6, Titus 2:13, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:1-8, John 10:30, 2 Peter 1:1, & others, given to us, then yes, you would be entirely correct to say that Jesus is just a created Being by God, thus to be called His Son.

So the question is not about the accuracy of the term 'God the Son', but rather what do people do with all the other Scriptures that point to Jesus being both the Son of God & God the Son? I have often asked people to exegete John 1:1-14 to me & they have failed to do so. I did see a Christadelphian article on it, & they say "the Word that became flesh was not the incarnate Son but the incarnate Word". Strange! If the Word became flesh & we know of no other human that became one from the Word of God, then it must apply to Jesus Who is God's Word made flesh & dwelt amongst us. I have no problem with this, but those who oppose this doctrine fail to provide an adequate explanation, rather either avoid such Scriptures or apply another interpretation to them to support their belief. Some might be convinced by this - others, reading the Word, remain unconvinced.

Steve, I think we've broached this matter before in our discussions. Whilst I believe in the complete Unity of God & that God is One, but from Him, we are taught from the Scriptures, proceed the Word & the Spirit. Though the original comment by Roy was one of 'fatherhood', I believe that the Word sent from God to become Man, expresses God's Fatherhood to His Son Jesus Christ. However, since the Unity of God has never been broken, the Son even at the Father's right Hand, remains wholly within the Unity of God & the full expression of His Person.

Of Jesus in the OT is written: Isaiah 9:6, Psalm 45:6,7 (cf Hebrews 1:8), Psalm 110:1, Daniel 7:13,14.

In the NT: John 1:1-14, Philippians 2:5-8, Titus 2:13 (cf John 20:28), 1 John 5:20 & many more.

So I don't believe it was the RCC or the Nicene Council that introduced the understanding of the Godhead, but what we see & learn from the Scriptures. But to say that Jesus is presently the Almighty God, without the presence of the Father in Heaven is wrong, as other Scriptures attest to it. The apostles & early Church believed in the deity of Christ & so we take it from there & hold onto it, even though our human understanding is limited & weak to understand the personality of God & His revelation to us.

This is generally ascribed to the prophet Jeremiah, who not only gave dire warnings to Judah about the upcoming punishment by God, but in the Book of Lamentations, he weeps over them & Jerusalem. This Book in fact is often recited by the Jews as they pray & weep at the 'Wailing Wall'.

If you're thinking more in terms of "what pagan nation took Israel into captivity?", then it was Assyria. And this old kingdom was located, we understand, is the northern part of Iraq & south-eastern Turkey.

As Israel went into captivity, so to did Judah also go into captivity to Babylon, about 150 years later.

what pagan nation destroyed to Northern kingdom of Israel?

The day begotten in my reading is started with the judgement of the heathen. ( Ps 2 Heb 1)

Jesus Christ will fufil this charge "on that day." And most likely will be the start of the millennium as the days of God are as 1000 years.

As to Solomon, he typifies the succession of worship as God confirms by fire. But the fufillment is in Jesus. Only he will execute vengeance, establish righteousness, true judgement on earth. This far exceeds the Incarnation and it easy slide into ritual pagan religion

Wesley's Notes for Hebrews 1:11

1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity - Thou art infinitely pure and holy. Therefore God - Who, as thou art Mediator, is thy God. Hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness - With the Holy Ghost, the fountain of joy. Above thy fellows. Above all the children of men.

1:10 Thou - The same to whom the discourse is addressed in the preceding verse. # Psa 102:25,26

1:12 As a mantle - With all ease. They shall be changed - Into new heavens and a new earth. But thou art eternally the same.

1:13 # Psa 110:1

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