Discuss Hebrews 11 Page 3

Shabbat Keeper:

I know the two resurrection you speak of, most believe what you believe.

The word speaks of Christ resurrection, then the resurrection of those who never believe that were raised with Christ.

Colossians 3:1 ... if ye be RISEN with Christ ....

Ephesians 2:6 .... and hath RAISED US us up together ....

Isaiah 26:19 .... TOGETHER with my dead body shall they ARISE ....

Hosea 6:2 ..... in the third day he will raise US UP .......

The saints that arose with Christ, were the Old Testament saints that had died in faith, but had never receive their promise of eternal life.

Those: in Revelation under the alter clothed in white are the Old saints awaiting their promise, eternal life, by their resurrection of Christ.

These are the 144,000 raised with Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, havlng obtained a good report through faith, received not the PROMISE (eternal life).

Hebrews 11:40 Christ having provided some BETTER THING FOR US (never having to die and wait in the grave), that they WITHOUT US should not be made PERFECT (by our resurrection as one).

Hebrews 5:9 ...and having been made perfect .... by our resurrection as one ....

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore who be perfect (by our resurrection as one), be thus minded: and if in any thing you be otherwise mined, God shall reveal even this to you.

God Bless YOU!

Giannis.

Part 2.

As I said "Christ is truth and by faith we believe him! Why? Because the Holyspirit testifies of him!

Is faith 'not" a gift of God? Yes it is.

Is it not caused by the Holyspirit?

Yes, it is persuasion.

It's NOT man's faith we're discussing here but Christ faith.

For example;

Take 1 Corinthians 2:9-14 and harmonize it with your meaning of faith and you will see "IF" it directly means belief then it doesn't change anything according to the context we're debating.

That what you believe in has to be given for us to have faith and trust in God!

Vs 9) But as it is written, EYE HATH NOT SEEN, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Vs 10) But GOD HATH REVEALED THEM UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.)

"That's Persuasion! (9 Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: ) [ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1]

IF YOU TRANSLATED THAT TO BELIEF, IT STILL NOT OF YOURSELF!

Vs 11. For WHAT MAN KNOWETH THE THINGS OF A MAN, SAVE THE SPIRIT OF MAN WHICH IS IN HIM? EVEN SO THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, BUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

There's your source of belief/faith/Persuasion Giannis.

Vs 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.

Vs 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Where is the energy behind your faith? or belief?

God bless.

Brother CharlesSaw:

The problem with the question of eternal security lies in having NO KNOWLEDGE of God's WORD.

If one deeply studies the PROPHECIES, one will see that at some point in the ages to come all the tribes of Israel are going to once again exit.

BUT, in this AGE he is ONLY calling out the PREISTHOOD, the house of David, the kind of firstfruits as is the tribe of Judah, lawgivers that will rule and reign and serve him when he resurrects all the DEAD back to there bodies of flesh and blood.

If one studies under the spirit of truth, you find these prophecies in the blessings of Israel to his twelve sons, from the beginning the tribe of Judah was CHOSEN to be God's lawgiver. The blessing on the remaining tribes will be fulfilled after all the lawgivers are put in place.

Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zachariah, and Revelation all prophesy ONLY a PART will be save in this age, one third (probably symbolic) since other prophecies seem to say ONE TENTH, the tithe to God, those without blemish being sacrificed with Christ on HIS CROSS.

You find this in the blessings of Jacob and Esau.

Hebrews 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau CONCERNING THINGS TO COME.

There are TWO DEATHS, TWO RESURRECTION and TWO JUDGEMENTS,

The first death and resurrection is those SAVED in this AGE, the ones Christ CAUSES TO BELIEVE in this AGE, they are being judged by the words of God.

1 Timothy 4:10 ... who is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN (not necessarily in this AGE), especially THOSE (in this AGE) that BELIEVE.

Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it (the land) shall be a tenth, and it (the tenth) shall be eaten (same as Christ is eaten, eat the words and digest them) as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance (CHRIST) IS IN THEM, when they cast their leaves (administer judgement), so the HOLY SEED shall be the substance thereof.

Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (those conformed to the image of Christ) SHALL COME upon Mt, Zion to JUDGE the house of ESAU

and the Kingdom shall be the LORDS.

Jesse

a very important subject here in both topics, faith & suffering

1.Faith, we all know that Rom 10:17, Paul earlier says it is Rom 10:8 he's not talking about the letter here

But John 6:63 The Grace / Light that appears in the heart bringing salvation to all mankind Hebrews 9:28 that wait on Him.

Believing that it is He, speaking to us & His first works within us is teaching us to deny all ungodliness & the learning of righteousness

Paul says in Gal 3:2 so there's an increase of His Spirit as we received His judgement of sin & instruction in righteousness.

Here is Power offered to overcome all sin. For He who show us our sin, will not only take them away, but power is given to preserve from repeating the sin. There is one requirement, a truly contrite & broke heart birth through godly sorrow for the offense. This is saving faith produce by the Spirit, True faith purifies the heart, cleanses the vessel 2 Timothy 2:21

2.Suffering 2Timothy 3:12

As we look through both Testaments, we see a common thread, the suffering of the faithful

Paul by the Spirit call them 2Cor 4:17 which suffering brings a far more eternal weigh of glory

Hebrews 11:35,38 attain a better resurrection, whom the world was not worthy of.

We must have a renewing of our minds as Paul contiu.. 2Cor 4:18

What an encouragement on this side of the grave, & the reward is eternal,

Folks,

lets pick up our Cross & follow Jesus, He merciful & faithfully cleanses us from all unrighteousness, takes away our sins against Him, continually increases us with His Spirit alone the Way, until we are baptize unto His death, being dead unto sin, baptizes us in His Spirit, each one fitted in the body according to His gifts, we enter into the fellowship of His suffering (He's there with us ) therefore we experience the Power of His resurrection, & He never leaves us or forsakes us.

Then rewards us for what He alone done through us, what a deal, Come on!

Jesse you inspire me, thank you

Friend;

Lev 26:15-21 God is speaking to His people, the history of the children of Israel full of this. 2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 3:22 Hosea 6:1,2

Christ brings this into the NT John 12:40 Acts 28:27

Hebrews 12:5-11 speaking of His children

He does this in His merciful lovingkindness to us, we being so blinded by the deceitfulness of sin, it must be scourge out, define as "to flog" lit or fig, God as a father chastising and training men as children by affliction,

Chastisement; Education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction, chastening, instruction, nurture.

There's two kinds of fear, & many manifestations of each, all grounded in one of the two, godly fear which foundation is grounded in obedient reverential love for God.

The other, Satan counter part, grounded in disobedience which brings torment, where condemnation & guilt in one's own heart follows them wherever they go, for they have offended the Holy God; they having continue in disobedience to the Grace of God which appears in their hearts.

God's love in chastising correction, cast this fear & torment out

& why? John 14:21, which defines love, which makes way for John 14:23 one's habitation becomes a dwelling place for Perfect Love in the work of Sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus.

thus "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.

Hebrews 12:11 exercising the Grace of God, the Word of Righteousness in discerning between Good & evil,, there's suffering in the Cross to learn righteousness. 1Pet 4:1

Then we have Job, who God said is perfect, Job 2:3; which trials, suffering & afflictions is of a much higher concept than punishment for disobedience, James 5:11

Hebrews 11:33 for this purpose "obtain a better resurrection"

one eighty, you would do well to live out your call name.

your in darkness, deceived; dwelling, speaking & judging falsely against God

Ephesians 5:13, therefore, Ephesians 5:14

In Love & Truth

OSAS: Another character in the "hall of fame" of saints from Hebrews 11.

Sampson. Hebrews 11:32 mentions Sampson in passing but doesn't elaborate on the subject.

Judges 13 gets into the beginning of the story of Manoah and his wife who had an angelic visitation from God announcing the birth of Sampson and the prophesied deliverance from the Philistines that his life would enable. Interestingly the angel appeared both times to the woman and it seemed this unnamed wife had more sense than her husband who was convinced they would die after such a visitation. Perhaps Sampson's upbringing in such a household led to some of his irrational behaviors as he grew up.

Judges 16 shows where Sampson ended up with Delilah; who ultimately sapped his strength to the point where he was blinded and no longer able to resist his enemies who were using her against him. He had lost his wife according to Judges 14:3 after they killed her following his vengeance in killing 30 Philistines. This tragedy could have been avoided if he had married within his people. He would continue to follow his affections; yet somehow God saw that he had genuine faith. This is perhaps best illustrated when he deliberately gave up his life in knocking down the pillars of Dagon's temple in Judges 16:29; and kills more Philistines than he did his entire life previously.

How we end life clearly is important; if the rest of our life is screwed up but we end it well then we can enter into heaven; the other extreme exists for those who turn away at the last minute; sadly a friend of mine said that was the case with his mother after being in a home where believers surrounded her the last few months of her life she turned away from the faith.

The examples in the last few posts show how God knows the heart; we can never be sure someone can't turn at the last minute but certainly shouldn't count on it. Matthew 7:20 shows us how in time we can see those who are truly saved by GOOD FRUIT.

OSAS: The rest of the story of Lot and his family

In assessing Lot's narrow escape from Sodom; the patience of God is unmistakeable. The angels put up with the hemming and hawing in Lot's pathetic request to go to a closer town rather than far away in the mountains to escape (see Genesis 19:20). In the end he ends up fleeing further once he sees the destruction.

REMEMBER LOT'S WIFE. I highly recommend the tract by Chapel Library on this topic with this title. ( Genesis 19:26). I cannot ultimately prove that Lot's wife was lost in her curiousity to look back but it certainly cost her her life. We are reminded; of course of the verse in Luke 9:62 of he who looks back once he has put his hand to the plough not being suitable for the Kingdom of God.

It would seem that Lot's wife couldn't have been alongside him and turned to a pillar of salt the same distance away from the destruction. It would seem she lagged some distance behind OR stood still quite a while when Lot continued on before this happened. Anyway; the tract I mentioned shows her priviledge in being in a home where someone read God's word and believed. I would say that it was probably much compromised what Lot was actually teaching as head of the household not to mention what his daughters knew scripturally. She was nonetheless without excuse; if we look at Rahab "the harlot" and her commendation saving the spies and preservation of life and listed in Hebrews 11 as an example of faith ( Hebrews 11:31) she was commended and actually part of the lineage of Christ eventually. Being OBEDIENT at such a time requires true faith; and Lot's wife clearly was more enamored with the world in this case than a pagan prostitute because of the ACTIONS demonstrating faith or lack thereof. This is why works ARE important. In all this we can't ignore Abraham's pleading to God in Gen. 18:32; clearly he had Lot in mind and his family to be the rightous who would escape. His sons in law ended up being wicked.

Lord Jesus, I plea that You tell/show one way or another to K., that her behavior greatly displeases You. Open up her spiritual eyes that she sees that there is no playing around with You, God. I also plea that You, Jesus comfort K. Whatever situation your child is going through be there and embrace Your child with Your love. Father God, You sent Jesus to heal M. What we need is Hebrews 11:1 "evidence" Since we all believe in Your word. I plea that You also speak to O., Your child, guide and lead her/him on the right path. In the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ.

Hi Rainwalker.

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

I also believe this quote by Peter in 1 Peter 3:19-20 doesn't say Christ went into Hell and preached to the Spirits in prison.

I believe verse 20 tells us WHEN he preached to those in prison.

(Verse 20)

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

I believe the building of the ark, the material used and the ark itself presents a type in the work of Christ and Christ himself.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

I also believe Ephesians 4:8-9 has to be interpreted separate from 1 Peter.

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

I believe this passage of scripture is saying Jesus rose victorious from the grave. He paid the price for the sin of the world through His sacrificial death and Resurrection, and broke the power of sin, Satan, death, and hell.

I believe at this point those saved in the Old Testament leaves Abraham's bosom and goes to be with the Lord.

And so do we when we die.

Also, I believe Satan will be bound by a great Angel, not the Lord. That is yet future. Revelation 20:1-2.

The conditions in Revelation 20:3-5 hasn't happened yet.

Blessings.

The LAND, The PROMISE, The INHERITANCE

Genesis 13:14-17 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the LAND which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed FOR EVER. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Hebrews 11:8-10 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an INHERITANCE, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the LAND OF PROMISE, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the HEIRS with him of the SAME PROMISE: For he looked for a CITY WHICH HATH FOUNDATIONS, whose BUILDER AND MAKER IS GOD.

Hebrews 11:13-18 These all died in faith, not having received the PROMISES, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were STRANGERS and PILGRIMS on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a BETTER COUNTRY , that is, an HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God:

Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Promise of the Land, the Inheritance, the City, is the Kingdom of God, New Heavens and New Earth which are, ETERNAL, FOR EVER. It is not a piece of property on this sin-cursed earth which will be destroyed.

Christ "spoke in parables" Mark 4:33,34.

Page 2.

Then what about Abraham? Abraham was dead & buried, how could he being dead rejoice to see Jesus' Day, this is the Day of Jesus' Coming? This wasn't a situation of (the Genesis) Abraham knowing about Jesus & waiting patiently with joy, for Jesus' Sacrifice & Redemption. This dialogue with the Jews was to show that Abraham was alive in Hades all this time, but NOW rejoicing to see the Messiah finally come (in Jesus' Day) Who would give full atonement to him & all others waiting in hope.

Yes, Abraham, as those many others, 'who looked for a heavenly city', expected it (in faith) & died (in faith), "not having received the promises, but seeing them afar off" ( Hebrews 11:13,16). Their faith/faithfulness to God was vibrant even to this point in their death & confinement in Hades, but until the Atonement was completed at Calvary, they remained in limbo, waiting, in expectation of the promised eternal rest that awaited them, to have Christ's Blood applied to them as well.

Now the Gospel was complete for them (what they once knew imperfectly); the eternal Rest they longed for was now realized in Christ Jesus, in Whose Blood there is Peace with God ( Colossians 1:20) & eternal Rest in Christ ( Hebrews 4:9). GBU.

Hi Brother Chris.

I agree 100% what you have said that OT Israel knew nothing of a coming Messiah's Sacrifice of His Life for them & substitutionary payment. Hence, the word 'Gospel' mentioned in Hebrews 4 is not the same Gospel they received as is the complete Gospel that the Apostles preached post-Cross. (Perhaps not in the way it is preached in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

I believe the OT saints did what was required of them at that time to make them just with God. Their temporal rituals and sacrifices exemplified the Gospel and perhaps the resurrection was preached by "type" when Issac was offered as a sacrifice by Abraham. Hebrews 11:17-19.

However, could they have perceived it, being that Jeremiah 31:31-34 have not taken place yet?

When we study Hebrews in its entirety, we know that this new covenant was not to come under the Levitical covenant. This is clearly seen in Hebrews Ch 7 and 8.

So, when we look back at this, Israel mind was blinded and there was a veil upon their hearts, as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3:14-16. "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament, which vail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when "it" shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (The "it" mentioned here is their hearts.)

When Israel turns their hearts to God the veil and the blindness shall be taken away.

This is what Paul is saying in Romans 11.

Israel was incapable of receiving the revelation of the Gospel under the Levitical High Priest and if you study the Gospels carefully, neither could the Apostles until the death of the one that filled the role of the Levitical Priesthood at the Cross.

(I believe this is what John's baptism was all about)

The resurrection began the new covenant under the new Priest hood. ( Hebrews 7:15-16.)

Now Christ faith in them will give them rest.

Thats future for them as a Nation

Yes, David,

The Chruch is the true Israel of God and heirs to God's promises to Abraham

Galatians 3:29 'And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'

Galatians 6"15-16 'For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and the mercy, and upon the Israel of God.'

All who are in Christ through faith, as Abraham was, are the seed that receive the promise of God to Abraham, the inheritance Abraham looked forward to, the heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 11:10.

The promise of the physical land to Abraham and the Israelites was a shadow pointing to the heavenly land of promise, the New heavens and new earth of eternal life with Jesus. The land of Israel was described as flowing with milk and honey, the New Jerusalem is described as flowing with living waters and fruit from the tree of life continually. Both figurative language for the abundant blessings of life in abundance from God for those who are of the faith of Abraham.

Promises for believers

For it has been granted to you not only to believe in Christ but also to suffer for him (Phillipians 1:29). Acts 5:41 is in a similar vein; namely being thankful for being worthy to be persecuted in His name; which is promised for all true believers. ( 2 Tim. 3:12; etal). The promise of being chastised if we are a true child of God and other sufferings aren't exactly the first thing we focus on

when it comes to God's promises. But of course if we consider these hard sayings first; we can learn to appreciate the more pleasurable promises in a greater way.

The opposite is true of course; in light of Hebrews 11:25. Sin runs its course of earthly pleasures; which lead up to eternal condemnation. For God's children; however there are pleasures evermore in His right hand ( Psalm 16:11). The fullness of life is also mentioned in that verse which corresponds with John 10:10 in living life to the full. Food and clothing are promised in the Gospels ( Matt. 6:25); (compare with 1 Kings 17:6 where the ravens brought Elijah food). Notice that shelter or a place to rest His head is mentioned as lacking in Matthew 8:20; which made some turn away from following Him. Surely Christ Himself did stay in peoples' homes for short interludes; but He also spent many nights on mountains in prayer; or sleeping on a boat.

Much prayer; of course seems to be edifying when focused on fulfilling the Great Commission. God states in Isaiah 55:11; that His word will not go out void; but accomplish His purposes. If we are doing His work; then we can be sure to reap what we sow; in terms of reward (see Psalm 126:5). Heavenly treasures are a promise for those who are serving out of a pure heart (see 2 Timothy 4:7-8). Therefore; the end ouf our sufferings in Christ will bring eternal glory that outweighs anything on earth. (see Romans 8:18). 2 Corinthians 4:17-18 also discusses "momentary afflictions" that don't compare to heavenly bliss.

Page 4. David0921.

I think our point of difference here is on Faith: did the OT faithful (the elect) have a God-given faith so as to be accepted, or did they come in their own faith, which God accepted looking ahead to the Cross? Yet knowing, that faith could never save them - only Christ's Blood. Hebrews 11:39,40, "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." We have been made perfect (cleansed, holy) in Christ & so also those others to join us as new creatures in Christ Jesus, that which they could only hope for & never attained.

f. Born again. The entrance of the Holy Spirit into a sinner's life: the sinner who has heard & understood the Gospel in view to the wretchedness of his sins & holiness of God, repented, called upon God for salvation, & God's Gift of Salvation & of His Spirit, Who seals, secures, & ministers to every area of the person's life. The once lost, despairing & fearful under the judgement of God, now enjoys peace with God, freedom from sin's grip, victory over temptations, power & desire to live unto God & not to self, & the assurance of God's tender care to eternity, would show the redeemed one this dramatic change in life that can only be done by the Power of God. I see this, in brief, the re-birth work of the Holy Spirit & resulting effect on this 'new' person's life ( 2 Corinthians 5:17).

I trust brother that my comments have gone some way to help you understand what I believe.

The Faith of Abraham and Sarah resulted in a Child called Isaac.....Which was a Child of Promise....Their Faith was a type of a pregnancy....Abraham wd be the Father of a multitude.....Sarah was too old to have Children.....But she got pregnant b/c of their faith which answers to the 1st Promise that Abraham wd be multiplied as the sands of the seas.....But God didn't Sware by himself in the 1st Promise.....Of the multiplication of Abraham's seed......God only swore by himself in the 2 nd Promise...That Christ wd be mutiplied as the stars of Heaven which was a New Covenant Gen.22 :17.....When Jesus died at Calvary....when a seed dies it multiplies...So Faith under this New covenant has a greater Promise.....Thus the Child of Promise under the new covenant is the H.G....The Child of Promise By Faith.....Real Faith under this N.C. is a spiritual pregnancy......Its Christ that is gona be multiplied as the stars of heaven..... Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.....When a woman is pregnant she has the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.....She brought forth a manchild....Which is the Child of PROMISE....Remember that 2 nd Promise when God swore by himself......Thats y Jesus is saying to whom the word came it made them Gods.....b/c i have spoken these words ( his seeds ) Sorrows have filled your hearts a spiritual pregnancy.....As Faith comes by hearing his word which are his seeds.....Everything under this N.C. is heavenly in the spiritual realm.....As we have borne the image of the earthy we must also bear the image of the heavenly.....Now its the H.G. that is the Child of Promise....Our new Heart and new Spirit.....Thats y Jesus is saying that which is born of the spirit is spirit...Which is that Child of Promise the H.G.....Thats y he always refers to himself as the Son of man.....Mankind is gonna have a baby Christ.....But there was no such seed under the O.T...H.G.IS GONA BE BORN IN US.

Page 1.

Thanks David0921; I think that this matter of 'believing on God' or even 'believing that God is able', is to be seen as different as to what we call 'saving faith', or a faith (act of trusting) in God to effect His Work of Salvation. It might sound like a 'grasping at straws' to convince another, but for me to adequately understand & apply this matter of 'ordinary faith & saving faith', is important. In the case of the OT folk, as we read here in Romans 4 about Abraham & David, the mention of Abraham's faith being "counted for righteousness", I understand that from what he knew & experienced of God, he exhibited human (ordinary) faith towards Him. And this was a faith based on his knowledge & his works to please God (as with Enoch, Hebrews 11:5). I don't perceive this was a special gift of faith for these men to exhibit, but an ordinary faith resulting from God revealing Himself to them & their desire to serve only Him.

But then we come to the NT & Ephesians 2:8,9. Even though unregenerate man, as those of the OT, can still express faith, whether towards God or man, in Ephesians we see that for the saving Work of Christ to be effective, we have the indivisible combination of both God's Grace & His Faith given for that to happen. In other words, God could have just given the sinner His Grace by way of sending His Son for them, but can that sinner, from an unregenerate heart, create a faith that can truly understand, embrace, & consistently live out the great salvation of God? And that is why Ephesians 2:8 shows, "and that not of yourselves": the Gift of God is both His Grace & His Faith that would instigate & complete salvation in that lost soul. Onto Page 2.

Page 1.

Thank you David0921; you have written extensively on this subject & asked many questions. I don't plan to give as much detail as it deserves, but will address some of it.

The Bible from Genesis to Malachi is about God's dealings with His people, Israel - giving them the Law & associated punishments for their disobedience. From Jesus' teachings (Gospels) onwards (the fuller meaning of aspects of that Law to Revelation), the saved Jew & Gentile can learn & apply the full requirements of all of God's Laws by the Work & Power of the Holy Spirit within them. So then, can the Gentile, whether unbelieving or believing, learn anything from the Old Law? Most certainly, but realizing that that Law was served to Israel only to show them God's requirements for them, their sinful state ( Romans 7:7), their inability to fully obey them, & their need for God's Help to deal with sin. To the God-fearing Jew under the Law, their hope & faith remained in the God they served, looking for His Redemption ( Hebrews 11:1,2,39,40); & this applied to those pre-Law & certainly pre-Christ, in Whom their redemption would one day be realized.

Romans 3:31. Romans 3:28, "we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law". This is the essence of this chapter, of justification of both Jew & Gentile through faith & not dependence on the Law. Is the Law then nullified because of faith? Paul writes, "we establish the Law"; i.e. the Law's role was to make men conscious of sin (v20) & this aspect of the Law (revealing sin) is confirmed by all those who turn from sin to Christ in faith. The Law couldn't effect salvation in Jesus - only Faith in Him could. The Law served/serves its purpose, but could never bring release. Why should we then put ourselves under it by reverting to it & placing its Holy Commands with punishment on those who need the liberty found by faith in Jesus? Onto Page 2.

NUMBERS CHAPTER 20

Continued....

Moses and Aaron went before the Lord at the entrance to the tabernacle and the glory of the Lord appeared to them, instructing Moses to take the rod (of Aaron) and SPEAK to THE rock before them. Was this a natural rock that was already in this wilderness or was this a rock that they carried with them throughout the wilderness journey? ( 1Cor. 10:4 says that the spiritual rock followed them; which was Christ)

Moses and Aaron then went out to the people. Moses derides the people angrily and strikes the rock twice. Water flows from it miraculously. God disciplines Moses for sinning in the way he carried out God's instructions. God did not tell Moses to strike the rock, just speak to it. Perhaps Moses had thought that since he had struck the rock the first time ( Exodus 17) that that is the way he was to always do this. God did not tell Moses to scold the people in anger. Unfortunately, Moses sinned by not following the exact instructions of God, but added to what God had told him to do. Moses credited himself to be the one to bring water out of the rock rather than give God the credit and glory for it alone. He did not sanctify God in this instance before the people fo Israel.

The result of this sin was that Moses would not enter the promised land. Moses did not argue with God. He did not bargain with Him. Nor did he intercede for himself. He accepted the will of God. He knew that there was an eternal promised land (like Abraham) he would enter that was better than the physical land. ( Hebrews 11:39-40) Moses knew of the Messiah, the gospel that that would come from Him, and the salvation that he would receive from Him ( Gal. 3:8).

So here, as in Exodus, the waters of Meribah were bitter-sweet. Bitter because the people received discipline from God, but sweet, because God was merciful towards them and provided the water they sorely needed.

Moses must have known that his life was coming to an end soon.

Brother David0921:

All the saints (elders) in the old testament died a physical death; because Christ, the promised SEED had not yet COME to give ALL immortal life by his resurrection.

Ezekiel 18:4 .... the SOUL that sinneth it shall DIE .....the soul goes to the grave .....

The promise in both the Old and New Testament has always been the promise of eternal live, destroying the enemy of man, DEATH.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all (the saints in the Old testament), having obtained a good report through faith (believing in the coming messiah to deliver them from death), RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE.

Hebrews 11:40 For God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (resurrected with Christ, Christ ONLY is perfect and hath immortality dwelling in the light .... 1 Timothy 6:16)

Matthew 27:52-53

All creation was given immortality at the same time: when Christ was resurrected; Christ only was resurrected, creating a NEW CREATION.

Revelation 21:5 ... Behold, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW ....

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in CHRIST (Christ ONLY was resurrected), he is a NEW creature: old things have passed away, Behold, all things have become NEW.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow (God foreknew all creation), he did also PREDESTINATE (by Christ resurrection) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN (Christ ONLY arose) of many brethren (CHRISTians).

God bless YOU!

Christ: Real and imaginary

Previously; the concept has been introduced as to evidence of good or bad fruit as indicators of true or false salvation in earlier posts. The idea of self; somehow being able to adequately perform the behaviors such as illustrated in the Beatitudes on the Sermon on the Mount (i.e. be a peacemaker; meek; etc) basically demonstrates humanism in some form. I also mentioned the idea of "decisional regeneration". Often; there isn't much thought once we have "fire insurance" as it were; of such verses as 2 Corinthians 13:5 in testing ourselves to see if we are; indeed in the faith. Iron sharpening iron ( Prov. 27:17) is a way that God often uses to chastise us; which He does with all who are truly in the faith. We also should examine carefully the entire message of scripture; in this case the Beatitudes. Here it DEFINES who the meek are; those who are "despitefully used; wrongfully accused and otherwise abused" (my own rhyme giving the gist of the scripture). In the flesh we may put up with this; but expect someone to pity us; unlike what Jesus went through in Isaiah 53. To die for a friend is one thing; but for enemies is something else ( Romans 5:7-8).

The opposite also holds true; people somehow read the Gospels and think that Christ was all about bringing people together; peace and harmony. The unregenerate mind glosses over Matthew 10:34; 10:36; and the 10 times they tried to kill Jesus by various methods such as stoning and throwing him off a cliff BEFORE the cross. The last case was when Lazarus was raised from the dead when he along with Christ were in the final failed attempt at assassination. The world of course has trouble understanding the need for a bloody cross; of the fact that ALL of us are guilty for His death (at least the elect). Ultimately; to believe Christ is God (part of a triune God) has to be given by God ( Matt. 16:17).

Without God we can do nothing ( John 15:5). See also Hebrews 11:6.

Hi 510.

"The Lord has won the battle for us".

You may not find it written like that in the scripture.

However that fact to be true but the battle isn't over as long as we're in the world.

Scripture records the end and all things will be made new.

We still have our adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour as mentioned in 1 Peter 5:8.

We also have this flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would as mentioned in Galatians 5:17.

In John 16:33 Jesus says; "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world".

Jesus said in John 18:36. "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD:

There's a heavenly kingdom yet to come!

Today he's calling out a people unto himself.

We were redeemed from this foreign cursed land by the precious blood of Christ as Peter mentioned in 1 Peter 1:17-19 as well as them of old who came before us as mentioned in Hebrews 11:13.

With that being said we are to be ambassadors for Christ. One who goes to a foreign country to do the business of he who sent you,

Satan is the prince of this world we live in.

I hope this helps and perhaps others would like to add,

God bless.

Mr. Spencer,

I would encourage you to read Hebrews 11 very carefully.

The "Land" that was promised to Abraham is the New Heavens and New Earth which is the Promised Land for every True Believer.

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

Hebrews 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The Promised Land

I have quoted a few selected verses from Hebrews 11 below.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

So what were these faithful men of God looking for? What was the LAND they were looking for? What was the PROMISE spoken of in these verses?

Was it some geographical land on this sin cursed earth where they were STRANGERS and PILGRIMS?

Or was it a HEAVENLY country, a HEAVENLY city, whose builder and maker is God?

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11 is talking about the INHERITANCE that awaits all True Believers that God has and will save throughout time. That is the New Heavens and New Earth where all True Believers will live and reign with Christ ETERNALLY. That God will create from the ashes of this sin-cursed earth.

Not some future Kingdom on this sin-cursed earth with Christ ruling from Jerusalem.

Heaven part 3

Rewards in heaven

Genesis 15:1 is the only scripture I have found that shows that God Himself is our reward. Certainly it is enough; and will be enough for those saved even without receiving rewards to know that He fulfilled what was needed on their behalf despite only getting to heaven as though "through the fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Hebrews 11:6 states that we MUST believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That is part of the nature of God; and should help us desire to see our brothers and sisters exalted and rejoice in the small ways God can use our service to help build them up in the faith. The admonition of Revelation 3:11 should also keep us pursuing the Lord until the end as we can lose our rewards to another if not careful.

I have probably discussed before several pasages on the type of rewards due to particular service which we do based (hopefully) on our gifts and calling. The reader can look up passages related to faithful preaching of the Word (and the more stringent judgments attached to that responsibility); those who patiently await His coming as Malachi 3 discusses with the book of remembrance and other verses talking about patient endurance until the end; and of course rewards for the martyrs for Christ.

These would no doubt represent levels of authority in some respect in heaven; and I have also brought up the verses in regard to ruling few or many cities; also we could look at 1 Cor. 5:41 for that. We should also note the reward of the evangelist those who lead many to righteousness shining as the stars in Daniel 12:3. That could also refer to end time events as with that of the great multitude martyred seen in heaven in association with the 144,000 taken from the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9).

To be continued.

David0921 lemme just say this to you and your doctrine of the bible being God himself....Israel was Sola Scriptura Written words only....They knew the bible by heart....But Jesus tells them you are of your father the Devil....Not that the bible was of the devil but their hearts were of the Devil.....And the written word cd not fix their hearts....It wd require a New Covenant to give mankind a new heart and a new spirit by the blood of Jesus at Calvary.... Rev 5:1...Now there is a new BOOK in the right hand of the Father, this is the book of life....That N.C.....And whosoever was not found written in this new book of life that Jesus wrote with his own blood was cast into the lake of fire....Which is baptism of the H.G. and fire....That fire that Jesus wants to bring on all the world....As our God is a consuming fire....That is gonna consume mans evil adamic heart...Thats y Jesus says he came to bring fire on the earth....Which is a cleansing Fire...As Malachi 3:2 explains.

Thus Faith can only come by the living word the seed of the sower that book in the Fathers right hand....Initiating a spiritual pregnancy by the seed of the bridegroom as his seed is spirit and life ... Hebrews 11:1...Thats y Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen....Even in the natural when a woman is pregnant she has the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen...The Child....B/C i have spoken these words sorrows has filled your hearts....A spiritual pregnancy....He wants to impregnate this whole world with his precious seed.... Jeremiah 30:6 Why do i see the whole world in travail and birthpains....David thats y the new birth is so important....And it can only happen by the living word the contents of that book in the fathers right hand....Not by reading a bible...HE HAS TO KNOW US....WE NEED LIVING SEED ( THE BRIDEGROOMS SEED)...Not written words...But the seed of the Bridegroom are Living words of life the Children of Promise..THE H.G...

Part. 3

The OT promises were superceded by what we receive in Christ and their better promises were to be realized only with us being co-heirs with them in Christ, in which we will together be made perfect forever.

I love that there is not one fulfillment of promises for the OT believers and a different fulfillment of promises for NT saints. But together we all receive that same fulfillment of better promises in Christ that far outweigh the value of the OT promises by an infinite degree. We are all receivers of the greatest fulfillments of God's promises through His grace and mercy that can be given by God. How wonderful is that.

It is these verses in the OT that cause me to not believe in a future earthly eternal state for Israelites and a heavenly eternal state for Christians. Hebrews 11:19-20 clearly says that we all receive from God the same eternal inheritance. Not separate eternal inheritances or states of blessedness.

Abrahamic Covenant.

Part 3.

Centuries after Abraham died, the children of Israel took possession of the land under Joshua's leadership ( Joshua 21:43). At no point in history, though, has Israel controlled all of the land God had specified. There remains, therefore, a final fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant that will see Israel occupying their God-given homeland to the fullest extent. The fulfillment will be more than a matter of geography; it will also be a time of holiness and restoration (see Ezekiel 20:40-44 and 36:1-37:28).

The Abrahamic Covenant also promised many descendants ( Genesis 12:2). God promised that the number of Abraham's children would rival that of "the dust of the earth" ( Genesis 15:16). Nations and kings would proceed from him ( Genesis 17:6). It is significant that the promise was given to an aged, childless couple. But Abraham "did not waver through unbelief" ( Romans 4:20), and his wife Sarah "considered him faithful who had made the promise" ( Hebrews 11:11). Abraham was justified by his faith ( Genesis 15:6), and he and his wife welcomed Isaac, the son of promise, into their home when they were 100 and 90 years old, respectively ( Genesis 21:5).

God reiterates the Abrahamic Covenant to Isaac and to his son Jacob, whose name God changes to Israel. The great nation is eventually established in the land where Abraham had dwelled. King David, one of Abraham's many descendants, is given the Davidic Covenant ( 2 Samuel 7:12-16), promising a "son of David" who would one day rule over the Jewish nation-and all nations-from Jerusalem. Many other Old Testament prophecies point to the blessed, future fulfillment of that promise (e.g., Isaiah 11; Micah 4; Zechariah 8).

See Part 4.

Hi Chris,

Thanks, Chris I was just being silly with the ruckus, I took a closer look at John 3 and I understand what you are saying about John 3:13 being in the discussion with Nicodemus. Jesus is telling him that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring the knowledge of heavenly things. That is a better understanding of the context of what Jesus was telling Nicodemus.

On the other, We are told in Hebrews 9:27 man is appointed once to die but it is God's will and His pleasure, and some things we have not been told. We know in Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and in 2 Kings 2:11 Elijah was taken up, other than that we speculate.

We do know Moses died Deut. 34:1-5, that is why I believe the transformation was a vision, whether a future event like things John was shown in Revelation or just a vision to strengthen the three to be apostles. My understanding is our soul is not immortal, to me scripture says we are mortal 2 Cor. 15:46-48 and will be until we are resurrected, 1 Cor. 15:53-54. The spirit that goes back is our breath/life, Ecclesiastes 12:7

In Matt. 27:50-54 my understanding is different, the word resurrection is a different word than used for all the other times it is in scripture it has more of a meaning of waking up. I would think after being hung on the cross for 6 hours one would be in and out of consciousness. In vs 50 Jesus cried out and yielded up the ghost.

All the things that happened next are connected with and, all happened when Jesus died. The earthquake opened the graves and those who arose went into Jerusalem when Jesus died not after Jesus was resurrected. That is my understanding, but scripture does not tell us about who they appeared to or what happened to them. Verse 54 confirms this to me and ties it to John 8:28.

Thanks for your reply and a better understanding of John 3:13, but my understanding is still no one but Jesus has ascended to heaven or will.

God bless,

RLW

GiGi. Final part

Hebrews 11:22, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also SHALT BE CUT OFF"

There are so many verses that are clear that salvation can be lost so that litterally one can write a whole book about it.

As Richard wrote how can one be happy if their salvation is always at risk? Yes I must be happy because God saved me, because He will do everything He can (according to His Justice which means He will never violate my freedom) to bring me back when I stray, like the Shepherd who went to find the lost sheep or the penny in the house, BUT I always have to guard my heart with fear because even if it was regenerated by God when I was born again, it still remains deceitful. And I don't know how I will stand when a temptation wiil stand in front of me. David just gave a glimpse to the naked Bathseba and that was enough to bring him down. Good for him he repented. Saul never repented.

You know in Greece in school we are taught about the fall of Constantinople by the Ottomans. History says (but it is possibly just a myth) that the turks found a little gate open in the walls and went in. Constaninople which was heavily fortified so it never fell for a thousand years, fall this time due a little door that was forgoten open during the seige. This can serve as an example of how satan works. He only needs a small opening in our heart to get in. And when he gets in the looting starts.

And by the way, why is satan fighting christians if they can never loose their salvation? But the Bible ( 1 Peter 5:8) says that he goes around to find someone to devour. Paul here talks to christians not to non believers.

Now about Israel, Paul says in Romans 11:26 that all Israel will be saved. Every single one of them? I can not answer to that. It is also written, John 19:37, "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced"

GBU