Hebrews
King James Version (KJV)
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You have solid points here, that are contributed by the Scriptures you given.
But in all fairness KJV has discrepancies too,
These translators were men learnt in the letter, it doesn't imply they were obedient to the Grace of God in the working of sanctification of the Spirit, obedience unto righteousness unto holiness to the new creature, but quite the opposite according to Scripture, 2Cor 3:6 could God used them? yes, even as God used Nebuchadnezzar
In the uses of Neb, this reveals to us that God has a secret way of using the wicked for His greater purposes, in this case, punishing Israel for their continuous disobedience to the manifestation of the Grace of God given under the Old Covenant. Hebrews tell us, the Grace of His words did not profit them because of unbelief in the Light. Psalms 19:7,8
This Word of God that is pure, tried in the furnace of the earth 7 times; that you so zealously speak of
Declares 1Cor 2:9-13 --- The Grace of God, the True Light that appears to all mankind, which is the living manifestation of His 2nd coming bringing us salvation, Hebrews 9:28 His spiritual appearances within our hearts, the working out of Matt 11:27
The Spirit alone is the interpreter of what He has inspires.
How much more so now, with the coming of Christ, we have the fullest of Grace & Truth reveal, whose beginning is as a tiny grain of mustard Seed in our hearts, yet; if believe in & obeyed grows by the operations of His Spirit to our profit, by faith in hearing the Word of God in our hearts. This is the sure Word of prophecy that Peter refers too!
And if not obeyed, then we will receive a just recompense of reward as they did...indeed, even more so according to Hebrews 10:29 Hebrew 12:25
Do some research in England during this moment of the reformation, when the KJV was written, their fruits/works declare who servants they are.
a friend
in love & truth.
After reading two threads, which stated that "we could never love like God loves" I felt compel by Holy Spirit to correct this belief, that's unscriptural.
Paul states 2Cor 5:14
The love of God that flowed through him, he states in Gal 2:20 it was Christ that dwelling within him, living, moving & having His being within Paul, having His mind, heart & spirit. & where Christ dwells He brings His Father with Him John14:23 & God is love, he became an living expression of the Godhead, there's no way that in this abide abode that God love was not known, felt, displays in his life. Have you ever tried keeping your human love in? What about God ?
Jesus states in John15:10 "abide in His love"
We must believe that we can Ephesians 3:19 as we continue to grow in Grace in the knowledge of His will that
Hebrews 10:10 for faith Gal 5:6
1 John 1:14 perfect love experienced, is what John the beloved "tasted, seen & handled" 1John 4:12
1 Thessalonians 4:9 God taught them how to love as He loves
John 13:14 "as I have love you"
Folks,
To my understanding, Jesus prayer in John 17:21-23 reveals a union between the Spirit & Soul of our Creator & his creatures that unites us in such an wonderous way, that it took Divinity to imagine it, & the Son accomplish all His Father's heart desire. Matt 17:5
Jeremiah 32:38-41 Love never fails.
Maybe Matthew 6:14-15 can be applicable to such a situation, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"
What about Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.". If in our heart dwells bitterness, hostility, passions, ...?
Some thoughts about the unpardonable sin. Firstly in general all unrepentant sin is unpardonable. But there are cases in a christian life that a sin can become unpardonable. It seems that there is a line that if one crosses, there is no return. I would call it "a line of repentance". When one crosses that line it seems they will never repent any more whatever happens in their life
1. An individual apostasy from God that goes on and on for a long time and christians are moving further and further away from God while their heart gets more and more hardened and their conscious becomes less and less sensitive, seems they eventually cross the line of no return. It is the situation described by Paul in Hebrews 10:26-29 and Hebrews 6:4-8.
2. Blasphemy against the HS. The word Blasphemy in anc grk has the meaning of giving somebody a bad reputation, lke calling demonic the actions of the HS. It is unpardonable. Again people who do that have already crossed the repentance line. Why? Because one who in purpose and with full knowledge of what is doing(not just repeat what he heard from somebody else) fights against God, there is noway he will ever repent.
3. Lying to the Holly Spirit, like Ananias and Sapphira did. They were not given any chance to repent(apart from being questioned by Peter), they immediately fell down dead. So trying to cheat on the Holly Spirit is unpardonable.
4. As a final one that will occur in the future. Receiving the mark of the beast is also unpardonable. This indicates that people who will accept the mark will have knowledge of what they will be doing.
Blessings.
Folks;
In 1Pet 2:24 we have Holy Spirit summing up Christ redemptive work of our complete deliverance from sin.;
" by who's stripes we are healed"
Directly relating to Isa 53, the whole chapter reveals Christ redemptive work from the bondage & slavery of sin.
"wounded for our transgressions, bruise for our iniquities, chastisement of our peace was upon Him, by whom stripes we are healed.
The healing spoken of here in context with both scriptures refer to the spiritual sinful nature we all inherited from Adam disobedience. It was a spiritual matter that manifested itself in his spirit & soul & fulfill in his flesh. Rom 6:16
Hebrews 10:1,2 the expression of the words " the good things to come" "once purged would have no remembrance of sin"
Indicating a sinless state, being made partakers of His divine nature, being thoroughly cleansed by washing of the Water of the WORD, partaking of Christ Blood & Flesh, His Grace / Light appearance 2Cor 4:6,7 exercising this glory & knowledge of God that comes to us in the Face of God Son, the free gift of Word of Righteousness Rom 5:17 / Word of Faith Rom 10:8 via, the Revelation of Christ to each individual soul.
Hebrew 10:26-29
I ask you, have the Spirit of Grace / Light convicted you of a sin or sins, & you having heard His Voice who speaks from heaven, your still being overcome by satan? By continuing in sin, has His Voice which you once heard strongly, has it weaken or are you to the point where He's not heard anymore within conscience, the still small Voice not there troubling you by you having not esteeming Him Isa 53:3 in His 2nd appearances which is Spirit within your heart bringing you the words of eternal salvation, Hebrew 9:28?
Christ came to destroy the works of the devil & the devil work is the temptations to sin, the temptation is the spirit of satan manifesting himself /revealing his will within our hearts, The Grace of God is also the Cross, the Power of God unto salvation appearance within
>It has never been anything close to an argument whether killing, stealing, adultery, ect was a sin or not on this site, and you know that.
"and you know that"?
What an unusual comment from you. Surely you're not pretending to know my thoughts that only God knows?
I stand by what I wrote and God knows your heart and motives for every word you say. It's a fact that Christians often try to justify sin through clever little cherry picking of verses and this occurs on this site. There was someone just recently who wrote it's impossible for Christians to sin and that our actions don't matter. This is a false teaching. It's unusual that you claimed "never been anything close to an argument..." because that's obviously untrue.
I'm not sure whether you haven't read some of these threads on this or just generally denying it. Christians sinning was such a big deal that's why Jesus warned His followers so much about it over and over, including through parables. If it wasn't such a big deal, Jesus wouldn't have repeated this over and over. John 8:11 "go, and sin no more" etc.
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
The truth needs to be shared on this forum, because there is a lot of misinformation and lies often repeated. Satan loves deceiving Christians and getting them to do his work. I feel led by the spirit to warn Christians, because people are ignoring Jesus's words and time is running out. John 14:15 Most people in the US call themselves "Christian" but Jesus says most people will go to hell. Jesus will help go after his true followers (sheep), but He doesn't go after wolves to "save" them, and He doesn't go after wolves in sheep's clothing. Matthew 7:13-21
I agree with the sleep until Jesus comes, because that's what the Bible says.
However, are these verses that say we'll not be saved now but later conflict with your view?
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
IN THE LAST TIME, not NOW.
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
THE END
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
DOES NOT SAY HE THAT ENDURE NOW, IS SAVED NOW. IT SAYS UNTO THE END, WHICH MEANS THE END, NOT NOW.
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
PATIENCE. IF YOURE SAVED NOW WHY NEED PATIENCE. YE "MIGHT" RECEIVE.. ITS CONDITIONAL.
Above are 4 verses saying we're saved later, not now. Can you find 4 or more verses that say we're saved now and not later?
Interesting viewpoint.
Here's another one that I find provocative.
In John 20:17, the word translated "touch" is a Greek word which means "to cling to, to lay hold of.
She wanted to worship him and never loose him again.
But there was still work to be done in cleansing our temple by presenting himself in our behalf.
Then in the same verse Jesus says why he told Mary not to touch him.
"FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER.
I believe Jesus was in his role as the High priest as this point.
He was to present himself as the sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:25-26. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 10:12-22. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
God bless.
And yes, those OT Sacrifices clearly pointed to Israel that "their sins brought them under condemnation and the Wrath of God", yet they still needed to faithfully perform them so as to stay the Wrath of God from them. For this reason, verses such as Numbers 15:25 & Leviticus 4:31 (after the priest offers the sacrifice, the burnt offering becomes a "sweet savour unto the LORD' and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and IT SHALL BE forgiven him") spoke very clearly to them concerning their state before God & their lives were under God's Judgement. If all that they sacrificed before God & receiving His forgiveness by it, only meant that they were performing an act which was useless, since Christ (as you believe), was already sacrificed for them from before the foundation of the world, then we do have a problem in understanding the nature of the OT sacrificial system.
If Christ already atoned for their sins, what was the need to introduce a system of works to please God & receive His Forgiveness? It's almost like saying, 'that we have been forgiven by Christ's Blood, but we still need to add our own works to make His Sacrifice complete'. Certainly, the OT Sacrifices contained no efficacy, for their blood shed had no lasting atoning value to the offeror ( Hebrews 10:11,12), but it still had to be done, so that God's Wrath could be stayed, their sins had to be covered, that they be not destroyed. And if that were not the case, then so help any who failed to perform what God had commanded - their fate was sealed.
The sacrificial system was absolutely important for Israel's physical preservation, but it did look forward to that One & only Sacrifice which would avail for them & for us. To understand the Bible in any other way concerning the sacrificial system, becomes meaningless.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
The Law having a SHADOW of good things TO COME, and not the very IMAGE of the things(so just like a shadow),could never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Hebrews 10:1
Hebrews 9:-Verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service,and aA EARTHLY sanctuary.There was a tabernacle made; the first, where the priests went always into to accomplishing the service of GOD, but into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
But the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
which was A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience, which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
If the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to GOD, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living GOD? And for this cause JESUS is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified
Friends
Concerning Hebrews 9:14
The cleansing offer here, is from the evil one, who rules in the old Adamic nature, the first birth.
The dead works are by Satan influence upon hearts & minds, thus we yielding our member unto unrighteousness Rom 6:16
The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is obedience to the Spirit. Rom 8:14
Hebrews 10:5-10
The nature of the Salvation that Christ offer was to rid us of sin. John 1:29 "ONCE & FOR ALL".
Bring us to a life of obedience, by the Spirit through the new birth 1Pet 1:2
Hebrews 10:14-18 Where the remission of these are, there is no more offering for sin.
& why, as stated in v 16,17 , the expression here is they that are sanctified, by obedience to His holy will & are made perfect, they sin no more. Christ being formed in the heart by God writing His Commandment on the tablet of our heart & placing His fear there Jeremiah 32:40
Hebrews 10:26-31
If we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth, the Grace of God that appears to all mankind Titus 2:11-13
The Holy Spirit who John 16:8
Christ was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8
Hebrews 4:2,3 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Romans 3:10,11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
V. THE THEME OF HEBREWS:
"The just shall live by faith." That's presented three times in the New Testament. Hebrews 10:38.
Faith is what this book is all about. If you live by faith, then you have to accept the consequences because there's no in between.
VI. THE OUTLINE OF HEBREWS:
CHAPTERS 1-6: The Superiority of the Person of Jesus Christ.
CHAPTER 1:1-3: The Superiority of Jesus Christ to the Prophets.
CHAPTER 1:4-2:18: The Superiority of Jesus Christ to the Angels.
The Jews believed that the angels were higher than man, and some even believed that Michael the Archangel was higher than the Messiah.
CHAPTER 3: The Superiority of Jesus Christ to Moses, in Chapter 3.
CHAPTER 4: The Superiority of Jesus Christ to Joshua, in Chapter 4.
And when you get to Chapter 4, I think you will be in for an interesting surprise. I would encourage you before you read Chapter 4 to read the account of creation in Genesis Chapter 1, and the first part of Chapter 2, especially from the standpoint that after each day of creation, it says, "and it was the first day," and "it was the second day," and so on.
But you will notice in Genesis Chapter 2, at the seventh day, it never says "and it was the seventh day." Hebrews Chapter 4 tells us that the seventh day never ended.
So, the superiority of Jesus Christ to Joshua, the Lord has a better day of rest than what Joshua presented.
Sins; therefore can be of commission or omission. There are many exhortations in scripture; one of he most frightening is that cowards are named among other grievous sins as a group who will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven ( Rev. 21:8). Therefore; we are without excuse if we always "go along to get along" and if we desire to live a cloistered existence and not let our light shine before men we are not living as the Lord desires. During persecution; of course it takes wisdom at times especially when there are other family members involved as to when to speak and when not to. The other side of this equation is a lack of patience; where we become so fearful of our needs being provided that we aren't taking things into prayer and trusting His guidance. Jesus Himself at times withdrew Himself from the crowds; He knew there was the appointed time to die and didn't let all the other attempts on His life distract Him.
In all these things then; it truly is faith that allows us to work in His strength. James 2:26 is interesting with the analogy of a body without the spirit (human spirit) present is dead. All of our talk is empty without action which is prompted and motivated by our love for God having us keep His commandments ( John 14:15).
Also; it seems apparent that we should; more than ever keep the admonition in Hebrews 10:25. As a Body; a cord of two or three isn't easily broken ( Ecclesiastes 4:12). Helping a brother or sister in Christ really is helping ourselves as Christ lives in all the saints. The concept of being the hands and feet of God gives a tangible representation of heaven; which is more than an amorphous light or mist.
Thanks for your response and question.
Jesus asks us to take a hold of his outstretched hand and pick up our crosses and follow Him. Does that take effort on our part? When you get up in the morning to read your bible, does that take effort on your part? Does it take effort on our part to pray, to ask for forgiveness, to repent? Does it take effort to give up our worldly luxuries, material things. I think we can agree the answer to all these questions would be Yes.
We are are supposed to be walking with Jesus/God toward our salvation in heaven. 'It is a relationship". He is NOT giving us a "free ticket" like many christians have been deceived by satan to believe. He wants us to work toward becoming Godly, and in doing so we will getting prepared and ready to live in His Kingdom. If we continue to live sinful worldly lives we are not following Christs examples that he gives to us so vividly throughout the scriptures and we will not receive salvation! Hebrews 10:26
Yes, it takes effort on our part. Jesus tells the adulterous to stop sinning, John 8:11. Jesus tells the invalid that he healed to stop sinning or something worse will happen to him John 5:14
Jesus expects the adulteress, the invalid, and all of us that want to inherit the Kingdom to stop sinning. Does this take an effort on our part? Yes. Jesus knows this takes effort for us. Jesus tells us we need to become humble, obedient, and teachable by following God's Commandments and by striving each day to become "sin free". Jesus promises us that he will give us The Comforter-His Holy Spirit to enable us to actually overcome sin and not only sin - but this entire World! John 14:17
I will close with a couple of great verses.
1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."
GBU
Therefore I submit, that those who did abide by God's Instructions pertaining to the sacrifices, were forgiven & accepted by Him, being held in Hades upon their death, but awaited the awakening to eternal life, even as Jesus made those sacrifices complete for them through His Own Sacrifice. For if they weren't forgiven at the first (i.e. their sins were covered before God, for He cannot overlook sin), then their second part would be alongside the rich man in torment who received no forgiveness. If their sins were not covered (i.e. they remained unforgiven), then they would stand condemned, die in their sins, and Jesus' Sacrifice could never apply to them. But Jesus' Death did apply because it looked back to the sacrifices that spake of Him & pointed to Him alone.
Therefore, even if Jesus' Coming would not be till many centuries/decades later for them, those of obedient Israel could still stand confident before the LORD, that their performance of the sacrifices that pleased Him, their righteous standing before God & full salvation later, was certain. Yet, as we know, most of them were unfaithful in spite of God receiving & blessing them, so suffering & captivity were their lot - even what they had before God, they lost - but those truly IN Christ Jesus now can never be lost: Hebrews 10:12,14,17, "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of GodFor by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctifiedAnd their sins and iniquities will I remember no more".
This is a classic example of why we must read the Whole Bible interpreting scripture with scripture to come to Truth. And how the Bible is its own interpreter.
When we fail to do this we are almost certain to come to wrong understanding. Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke he not. The Old Testament Ceremonial Laws were a "historical parable". A shadow pointing to the substance.
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
No. The sacrifices of the Old Testament ceremonial law did not forgive their sins.
Hebrews 8:3-6 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Genesis 13:14,15 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Hebrews 10:11,12 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
As you have already experience, they're many who will gladly give you their opinions, thus leaving you both torn & tormented with them,
Friends; you must go to God Himself to seek your answer, it's the only Way you'll have peace on this issue.
Your openness & honesty in revealing that you & your husband were living in sin before marriage is noted. This is what God is looking for, truthfulness Hebrews 10:22 as you both come before Him.
Here are some Scriptures.
Matt 10:19 "except for fornication"
John 4:10-18, here we have Jesus offering eternal life to a woman who had been married 5 times & presently living in sin
Scriptures does not reveal what all Jesus Christ spoke to the Samaritan's those two day He stay with them, but you can be sure it was on the lines of John 8:11 Hebrews 10:26
God's grace teaches us the knowledge of His will & we are to exercises it until we become more than conquerors through Him that loves us & continually gives Himself to us through His Spirit of Grace. This is putting Him on & what we receive from Christ is our inheritance in Him.
The simplest & purest definition of a Christian, is Christlikeness, to be like Jesus.
Its true we all come into this world as sinners, but it not true that we must remain sinners.
Jesus name declare His works, Matt 1:21 "saves them from their sin, not in their sins". Titus 2:14, "cleanse us all iniquity" for how else can we be Col 1:22 "present you holy, unblameable & unreproveable in His sight.
Concerning the reading of the amplified bible this is another man made opinion, throw it out the window along with the rest of the dirty water.
in love & truth
You stated, "the apostles had not been told the Gospel will also be given to the Gentiles, the time had not come. There were another 3.5 years after Jesus's ministry before the apostles were told the gospel of Christ will be given to the Greeks/Gentiles.
I agree with Gigi, The Apostles were told to go out to preach the gospel to the whole world and I believe the old economy "if that's the correct term to use" ended at the crucifixion when the veil was rent from top to bottom.
The timing of the beginning and ending of what God ordained in the old and in the new covenant was totally of God, "Not according to man's response to it"
The OT scripture said salvation would go out to the Gentiles by the seed which shall come. some expected it in the New Testament as seen in Luke 2:30-32. For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people. A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Also.
Jesus said in John 2:19-22 he would tare the temple down and build it again in 3 days.
That was the end of temporary temple that only served as a shadow of what was to come. Hebrews 9:6-11.
When he rose from the grave, he went to the disciples and see here what he said in Luke 24:42-48.
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things!
Concerning the veil being rent from top to bottom.
Here is what was accomplished at the death and resurrection of our Lord.
Here in Hebrews 6:17-20 we see Jesus as our "forerunner" and High Priest.
We have been once and for all cleansed and can now enter therein with a clear conscience. See Hebrews 9:8-26.
Also.
Hebrews 10:8-22.
The veil being rent signifies the end of the old covenant and the resurrection ushered in the new covenant.
The commission came right afterwards. Luke 24:42-49. and Matthew 28:19-20.
God bless.
What I been given by the Spirit, & Scriptures is that the OT is our example.
God was ready to bring Israel into possession of the promise land, then after their 40yrs of wandering, they enter & came into a measure of it, but they stalled again & did not drive out all of there enemies, through doubt & unbelief, Hebrews 10:19 & the pleasures & comforts 1John 2:16 as then so now!
You say "Definitely not the 2nd case" they're cleaned & are continuously being clean. There is a state of Grace in the work of redemption that as one continues faithful to God, minding His reproofs & instructions in righteousness growing unto maturity in Christ, Hebrews 12:7-11 Hebrews 10:21-23 in judgment God remembers mercy. Our Father is a good one, He sees & discerns the intents of our hearts toward Him.
For instances, when we're learning how to walk, there's many falls, but at some point the child learns, doesn't fall any more. The same with coming out of sin, He takes us step by step, line upon line, bringing us through stages of deliverance. If we can overcome one sin, & continue in the exercising of His Grace we can eventually overcome all sin. Like the children of Israel we becomes content, grown fat, thus their miserable history of continuing in sin & ours. Oh, we keep up the outward appearance & lip service, but the inward work of His living Presence has ceased & now it just a memory of what He had wrought in us from past experiences, Grace is Divine Power to continue. 1Thess 5:24
Hi Chris
Quoting you (we can never fulfill the law perfectly,) this is against Scriptures, Rom 8:4; it doesn't state a little or mostly, but fulfill in Christ Jesus! He's the Head, we're His body.
I've notice you've left the word 'abrogated', out of this conversation, no doubt; after this enlightenment, yet your being shifty to your assertions, as you indirectly assert it again by Hebrews 8:13; deceitfully clever, whether you were mindful of it or not, the Lord know the intent of our hearts. The Law; is only vanish away if we are walking in the Spirit, Gal 5:16; If we sin, than the Law revives & the penalty of death ensues. Sin is not to be continue in, to be repeated over & over again for life, the holy writ says, Rom 6:11; through the exercising of the Word of His Grace/Righteousness, it, the sin nature in purge out as we remain confident, faithful & steadfast unto the end. Hebrews 10:36-39;
This liberty that you speak of in the NC, from the context of our previous conversation; your stated, to fully know & obey God's will, by the working of Holy Spirit in them, your stating this can be accomplish, now your being evasive in this statement also, Titus 2:7; Friend, your speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, James 1:8; James 3:11,12; this doesn't become godliness, truth in the inward parts & righteousness in either testament.
The statement below is a quote from one of your responses to Frankie.
"The Old Covenant showed man his sin & God's Vengeance was upon him (but saved by the sacrifices); "but Grace & Truth came by Jesus Christ" ( John 1:17) & we now can receive unconditional pardon."
Forgive me for extracting that comment out of its context, but by that statement you are asserting a different Salvation plan for those saved in National Israel of the Old Testament from the Salvation of the New Testament. And the Salvation plan you are asserting is a Salvation based upon Works rather than Grace. And that CANNOT be. It is the snare that the Pharisees fell into.
We read in Hebrews and in particular Hebrews 10:1-4
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
All of the "ceremonial" aspects of the Law were given to National Israel as a PICTURE of the Nature of Salvation. And not as a MEANS to Salvation. They were types and shadows of the real SUBSTANCE of Salvation.
And that Salvation is the same Salvation that has "saved" every True Believer throughout time.
We MUST allow the Bible, The WHOLE Bible, to interpret itself.
More later.
John 17:17 involves Christ's prayer for us to be sanctified; and involves His Word and the truth. James 1:23 and 24 reminds us that we need to be "doers"; and he compares a man in front of a mirror forgetting what he looks like as an example. I am not sure of the context; but I would also quote the verse from Hebrews 10:25 in this posting. The first passage shows the danger of ignoring our own walk; possibly showing us how we forget what we say; or invoking a memory that we are still with a fallen nature; the second passage also shows how forgetting to do corporate worship can also make us forget the experience.
I state this fact first because I find that no matter how long I learn the scriptures; grow in wisdom and understanding; etc. that it is in the fellowship of the saints where I once again recognize God's presence; and witness anew those with different gifts.
The danger of being prideful as to our own continued growth; particularly when it comes to learning things from other believers is one important reason to continue in regular church attendance as well as; of course witnessing with fellow believers; small groups; corporate prayer; etc.
The fact is; that as long as we dwell in this mortal flesh; there is potential to fall into sin. This is one reason we need to be careful not to idolize someone who appears to be someone mature in the faith. On the other hand; it is imperative to have others such as Paul with Timothy or Christ with the Disciples for instruction and discipleship; as "iron sharpens iron" ( Prov. 27:17). Proverbs 27:6 states "faithful are the wounds of a friend." Surely this sort of relationship is rare and needed in the church today.
As a father with a child; instruction in righteousness should bring us to maturity in our own spiritual walk so that we can go out and make Disciples ourselves as Christ instructed ( Matt. 28:19-20). We need to get beyond "decisions" for Christ that way.
Part 2
2 To make an end of sins (Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law). The verb in the Hebrew text translated as "put an end to" can mean "to seal up". The covering of our sins was accomplished on the cross at Calvary. When he said IT IS FINISHED, he provided us with the garments (wedding garments) to cover our sins. Psalm 32:1-2 Matthew 1:21 John 1:29 Romans 8:3 1 Corinthians 15:3 Hebrews 10:8-11 1 John 3:5 Revelation 16:15.
Is there still sin today? Yes. Will there still be sin and death after Jesus's second coming? Yes. Even during the 1000 years, there will be sin and death until all is made new Rev. 21:1-4 but through Jesus, they are covered and sealed, Rev. 16:15
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity (Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement, iniquity is guilt, crookedness, perverseness, that which is not straight or upright, moral distortion, in the dark. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
The word reconcile means to bring back to a former state of harmony Jesus reconciled both Jew and Gentile unto God in one body by the cross and now through Jesus we both Jew and Gentile have access by one Spirit unto the Father no more strangers or foreigners but fellow citizens. Making reconciliation for iniquity concerns our involvement in the work of salvation.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. Everlasting, no end, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving-kindness, in conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will, fair and balanced. Isaiah 61:10-11 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 1 Peter 2:24.
See Part 3
What is man SAVED from?
The wages of SIN is DEATH.
What is SIN?
Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Hebrews 10:16 And this is the covenant I will make with them, after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my LAWS in their hearts, and in their minds I will write them:
Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
So what is the SIN that results in death.
James 2:7 Do they not blaspheme thy Holy NAME by which ye are called?
Revelation 13:6 And he open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme HIS NAME ....
John 16:8 And when HE (the Holy Ghost) is COME, he (the Holy Ghost) will reprove the world of SIN ....
So what is SIN that leads to death? ....blasphemy of the Holy Ghost by whose NAME ye are CALLED.
Acts 2:38 .....REPENT (of your beliefs) and be baptised in the NAME of Jesus ......
John 16:9 Of SIN because the BELIEVE not on me (the promised SEED of God), the ROD that CAUSES man to do the WILL of God.
Man does't BELIEVE that Christ came as SINFUL FLESH (you and I and all creation): and DIED on the cross.
Three days later Christ ONLY arose; and all creation were joint heirs with Christ's resurrection, all creation bears the NAME of Christ, because they were made ONE with Christ, blaspheming that name leads to DEATH.
The whole world is DEAD in sin (UNBELIEF).
God bless you
Instead what I'm looking for verses supporting people saying they were already saved (in the past) and already have salvation.
So far there seem to be dozens of verses supporting a future salvation and none supporting a past or present salvation before judgment, but only one which I just now found supporting a present salvation: Luke 19:9
Verses supporting Future salvation:
1. Phil 2:12 - "work out" salvation as if its a process and not a one moment event.
2. 1 cor 3:6-8 (conditional- "reward according to his own labour.") It doesn't say the reward came in advance before any labor was done or that labor was irrelevant.
3. 1 Cor 9:24-27 "run the race" to win the prize, not the 'race was already won' and you already have the prize.
4. Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
5. 1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
6. 1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." If salvation was given now, why would it say its not given until the "last time"?
7. 2 Timothy 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." It says "keep" like a promise, like assurance of future salvation? It doesn't say Jesus already saved me and delivered the commitment.
Verses supporting Present salvation:
1. Luke 19:9
Currently:
7 verses supporting future salvation
1 verse supporting present salvation.
Any others?
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:10 KJV
2 Corinthians 5:10
If there are no verses saying we are immediately saved before we die and are judged, why do people assume that? If not in the Bible where did this belief originate?
The bulk of this discussion is focused on men who profess to believe as a Christian and who are seeking faith as a means to an end. This; in my opinion is far more insidious; and leads to greater judgment than the average pagan who overtly worship false gods. We have discussed Lot's wife; and of course in New Testament times we have warnings such as Hebrews 10:29 to seriously consider as well as the previous verse. We have more than the law now; we have the Bible; the written testimony of God with His redemptive plan for us.
Part of the problem; as I have pointed out a number of times is the concept of "decisional regeneration". We can follow the admonition of Romans 10:9 and attest to the veracity of John 3:16 and a few other basic verses on salvation for a number of reasons; but apart from a transformation through the Holy Spirit and God drawing a person toward repentance we are NOT saved. This concept is found in 5 scriptures as either granting or leading someone to repenetance (see 2 Tim. 2:25; Romans 2:4). Two types of sorrow are mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:10; godly and worldly sorrow. The end result is either spiritual death or life. (compare Peter to Judas Iscariot after Gethsemene; and until His crucifixion for examples of these two types of sorrow). I would go farther though; some of us haven't even considered the consequences of our sins and how it would affect us at the end of this life; and Judgment Day. Fear of hell may not save someone without an appreciation for the Holiness of God and how we have offended our Creator; which comes in a large part after we are saved (experientially slow for some; immediate for others). But true repentance gives us some realization of our state apart from Christ along with a new heart ( Ezekiel 11:19-20).
I will say that in today's world; it is going to get very costly to even confess Christ; assuming; of course it is real church that we are declaring allegiance to
Sorry but I'm not wanting to turn what Gigi started a couple of years ago as a summary through the OT.
I'm emphasizing how God deals with them as a Nation as he do us today. ( With mercy for his name sake.) He will complete what he started! He's not a man where he lies or repent. This will be illustrated in Ch 23 vs 19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
The fact that God decided to continue his promises with the next generation "kids 20 years and below" and continue to carry them on eagles wings in the wilderness emphasis he's committed to carrying on with his promises and dealing with them as a Nation as part of his redemption plan.
That's the same kind of display of commitment and faithfulness he has for his Church.
We're a stiff neck people as well who has the spirit INSIDE US! so we should be encouraged by God not abandoning Israel.
We should consider
Hebrews 10:29-31. and
Romans 11:18-20.
I've read and studied Hebrews 11 and interpret those verses perhaps slightly different than you and don't care to get into that on this thread.
However I will leave you with this, How they are to pray.
Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. THY KINGDOM COME. Thy will be done, AS IN HEAVEN, SO IN EARTH.
This haven't happened yet.
I'll be leaving this thread for now.
God bless.