Discuss Ezekiel 28 Page 2

The Bible does not teach eternal conscious torment. The consistent testimony of scripture is that "the wages of sin is death," and not eternal life. Romans 6:23; Genesis 2:17; Ezekiel 18:30-32; 1 John 5:12. It was the devil who first taught that one could sin and still have eternal life. Genesis 3:4. Jesus came to save us from perishing, and to give us eternal life, not to save us from living forever. John 3:16.

Hellfire is something that takes place at the end of this world, and not at death. John 5:28,29; Matthew 13:40. In it, soul and body are completely destroyed. Matthew 10:28; 2 Thess 1:9. It will consume the wicked into ashes. Revelation 20:9; Malachi 4:1-3; Psalm 37:20. Even the devil will be consumed to ashes. Ezekiel 28:18,19; Isaiah 47:14.

In the new earth, when all sin has been eradicated, there will be no more suffering or pain or death. Revelation 21:4.

Hi Cheryl Sorry Scripture reference Ezekiel 28: King of Tyrus figure of speech for lucifer veres 1-17, also

Isaiah 14:12-16.

Interestingly seems symbolicly.

In study Tyrus appears to be what the world wants to call 'Atlantis ' even online searches lead that direction. Amos 1:8-10, Zechariah 9:1-4, Ezekiel 27:3-4, Ezekiel 29:18, Ezekiel 26:3-21, hopefully these are helpful

Does Ezekiel discuss the fall of Satan

Hi Brother Ronald.

You are right, there is so much that is not given in scripture so most is conjectural.

I also believe Adam lived in a different environment for lack of better terms, "Before sin entered the world."

A big question that troubles me is the word naked. It seems it carries more of a spiritual meaning than nudity often in scripture.

I believe often it's the opposite of being clothed with righteousness in a way mentioned here in Isaiah 61:10-11.

The question is was Adam and Eve naked spiritually before eating of the tree of "knowledge of good and evil and perhaps they were clothed in a way mentioned in Ezekiel 16:7-15. We know good and evil existed long before Adam. "But they had no knowledge of it until they ate if the fruit. Look at Genesis 3:17. in that context, ( AND THE EYES OF THEM BOTH WERE OPENED,)....( and they knew that they were naked;...) and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

I believe as you do Adam and Jesus Christ is all part of Gods plan that was before this world and I feel it involves Satan because this plan, that was before this world, included the lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

I believe in the Gap theory, Not as some do and try to fit the Dinosaurs into that gap or any other life existence that we know of, I believe they were all created in the Genesis account. I believe Lucifer may possibly have had a dominion here on earth in that Gap.

Here's why. Ezekiel 28:13. ( Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; ) every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

The account in Genesis Lucifer has already fallen, He's not adorned as mentioned in Ezekiel 28. " I believe this fallen mentioned here is positionally. and. "Down to Earth."

until next time.

GBU.

Hello Prasanth. The question you ask is a valid one & because the Scriptures are not entirely clear on all the events pertaining to Satan's origin & despatch, we can only formulate an opinion based on what the Scriptures do reveal. Therefore, we can get many opinions on this, even yours could be valid. So, as you've asked the question, let me give you my understanding using a timeline.

a. When God created all things in Heaven (He Himself being un-created), all heavenly beings, etc. were created in eternity past. This was before the creation of the worlds, of man & of other things for the Earth. In Heaven, God created beings such as cherubs, seraphs, beasts, etc., which all had a particular function before God & which constantly worshipped Him ( Ezekiel 10:1-22; Isaiah 6:1-8).

b. One cherub, which was "perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" ( Ezekiel 28:15), is reference to the one the Bible calls, Lucifer ( Isaiah 14:12). Although, the Ezekiel reference is directly to the King of Tyrus, the wording suggests that the spirit within the king is being addressed & described. Lucifer desired to sit in God's place ( Isaiah 14:12-14), therefore he was cast out of Heaven onto the Earth.

c. And Lucifer, also called Satan (in Book of Job), was there in readiness to deform God's perfect creation (man & woman) in the Garden of Eden, that they too might become like him, filled with evil & opposing God & all that is righteous & holy ( Genesis 3:1-19).

d. Though Satan was cast to the Earth, he still has access to Heaven, even as he presented himself to God with the other angels ( Job 1:6,7) to accuse Job (even as he does us: Revelation 12:10). Satan is not chained or confined to Hell now - he roams freely to deceive the nations ( Revelation 20:3) & will make his final thrust through the coming Anti-Christ, the personification of Satan, just as King Tyrus was. But he will one day be locked up for good ( Revelation 20:7-10).

Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Isaiah 14:12-15 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Ezekiel 28:14 - Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:15 - Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ezekiel 28:16 - By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Luke 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Hebrews 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of DEATH, that is, the devil;

LEGALLY, because Jesus (2nd Adam) WON back the Authority FROM SATAN that First Adam lost in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, was conceived becoming the SON OF MAN. All God, all HUMAN.

Satan and Demons are NOT HUMAN. They borrow bodies: dogs, frogs and witches who lend their bodies.

CAREFULLY READ EPHESIANS 6

Donna Smith,

There are several opinions on this, we know Satan was the first to rebel, the first to sin, a murderer, and is the father of lies ( John 8:44). We see in Isaiah 14 God said, take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, many take vs. 12 O Lucifer son of the morning as being Satan describing his casting out.

The word Lucifer, the morning star is another word for the planet Venus, Latin roots lux (light) and ferre (to carry) it is its brightest right before sunrise. It is also called a day star because it can be seen in the daytime.

We see in ( Ezekiel 28:12-19) Is a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, where the description of Satan is taken. In ( Job 1) and ( Job 2) " the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord" (angels) Satan showed up. So at this time Satan still had access to heaven. In ( Luke 10:18) Jesus said "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Whether past or future? Whether it was his ranking or permanent?

Now in ( Revelation 12:7-17) and Revelation 13:1-2), the war in heaven where the red dragon and his angels are cast out into the earth. In verse 8 there is no more place for them in heaven. In verse 12 they are rejoicing in heaven and the warning, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth" because Satan knows he only has a short time.

My understanding, Revelation 12 starts the great tribulation when Satan is permanently cast down with no more access to heaven and gives his power seat and great authority to the beast. Revelation 12, if you look at the Greek it is Satan standing on the sand of the sea when the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit. ( Revelation 9:11) ( Revelation 11:7) ( Revelation 17:8).

May this help your study, you can use, bible simple search KJV, just type in to edge, google, yahoo or whatever search you use, also this site. Type in devil, Satan, and it will pull all scripture that contains these words you can study.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Loretta.

You are correct, God knows all things. He even knew Satan would fall and deceive man.

Knowing this you know about as much as everybody. So with that being said I will give you my answer which would sound a lot like sister Dianne's and brother Earls, but I will say it in three word! I DONT KNOW. There is nothing given in scripture on this matter.

Another question is could creating Lucifer the way he did and knowing he would fall be a part of Gods redemption plan? Who knows?

Another question and this one might a little easier to answer, If God never created Satan and would have just created Satan would man have turned out rebellious and evil? Perhaps so. We know during the millennium Satan will be chained a thousand years and man will be under the reign of Christ and there will still be death and sin. After the Devil is loosed again he will deceive the nations again. With that being said, why did God create a rebellious man?

Now we come to part of Brother Earl's answer.

Romans 9:20-23. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

"Perhaps this can apply to Lucifer as well."

Here's a side note on Satan. He was created perfect. Ezekiel 28:15.

He fell because of pride. Ezekiel 28:17. and this caused him to want to be like the most high! Isaiah 14:12-14.

He was created perfect and by this he wanted to be worshiped.

Is not that what he ask the Lord Jesus to do in Mathew 4:9. This is also one of mans biggest problems as well, desiring praise and glory for ourselves.

God bless.

Earl Lucifer was perfect until the day iniquity was found in Him, Ezekiel 28:15 thou wast perfect in thy ways until iniguity was found in thee. Everything God created has freedom of will including angels, angels are messengers and they are either working for one side or the other and lucifer before he changed was a perfect and powerful spiritual being who wanted to be Like the most high God. I was dealing with one area you have gone to several, I wasn't attempting to prove anything it was a discussion. God Bless I respect your input.

Hi Nana,

Yes God created the devil.

Read Ezekiel 28:12-19. take note of verses 14 and 15.

" Ezekiel 28:14-15. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast "CREATED", till iniquity was found in thee."

Psalms 148:2-5. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

" Let THEM praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were CREATED."

Colossians 1:16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

God bless.

Really the God's people,much more now, need a lot of wisdom,it because Satan will manifest himself in Israel disguised as messiah,IN FACT an esoteric,and kabbalistic,and spiritist messiah,actually AN IMPOSTER- John 5:v.43.

Satan is a wise in Torah,he is wiser than Daniel the prophet,as GOD revealed to Ezekiel 28:1-3,and he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God,or that is worshipped;so that he as God will sit in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God.He will be the future guide of the esoteric,and kabbalistic,and spiritist Judaism,and as"messiah" he will be the most important ruler of Israel.

The false messiah will use all structures of the Roman Catholic Church in the 7 regions of the Earth;I mean,Europe,Asia, Africa,Oceania(Australia),North America,Central Amrica,and South America(7 regions)for establishing a MONSTROUS religious and satanic Empire,the Antichrist's kingdom.

By the way,the false messiah,enthroned in Jerusalem,the great city called spiritually Sodom and Egypt-Rev.11:8-,in the FIRST HALF of the last week of 7 years-Dan.9:v.27,he will give to the guide of the RCC, the Pope, his Power,and his Throne(IN JERUSALEM),and great Authority-Rev.13:v.2.

The false messiah-Satan-son of perdition and MAN of sin,he will exerciseth all the power of the FIRST Beast(the Pope) before him,and causeth the earth(Israel)and them which dwell therein to worship the first(MAN)Beast(the Pope enthroned by him in JERUSALEM),whose deadly wound was(will be)healed.Rev.13:v.12.

13 And he doeth(will do)great wonders,so that he(will)make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And(will)deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the Beast;saying to them that dwell on the earth(Israel),that they should make an image to the Beast(the Pope),which had the wound by a Sword,and did live.

The fulfilment of above will begin after the death of Pope Francis so soon.

Brother Earl.

I believe prince of Tyrus, used in Ezekiel 28:2. he's talking to the king of Tyrus. "The ruler of Tyrus"

But in Ezekiel 28:12-19. He addresses him King of Tyrus and broadens his indictment and put him in places he has never been. I believe he's talking to the source behind the king of Tyrus. Carefully go through the verses.

Examples:

Here you see the Lord talking to the unclean spirits in a man.

Mark 5:7-9. And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Here's a link to scripture where Gabriel is fighting with Demonic forces of Persia. and next Grecia.

Daniel 10:13-21.

EVELYN

Really the God's people, much more now, need a lot of wisdom, it because Satan will manifest himself in Israel disguised as messiah, IN FACT an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah, actually AN IMPOSTER - John 5:v.43. Satan is a wise in Torah, he is wiser than Daniel the prophet, as GOD revealed to Ezekiel 28:v.1-3, and he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. He will be the future guide of the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist Judaism, and as "messiah" he will be the most important ruler of Israel, inclusive he will use all structures of the Roman Catholic Church in the 7 regions of the Earth; I mean, Europe, Asia, Africa, Oceania(Australia), North America, Central Amrica, and South America (7 regions) for establishing a MONSTROUS religious and satanic Empire, the Antichrist's kingdom. By the way, the false messiah, enthroned in Jerusalem, the great city called spiritually Sodom and Egypt-Rev.11:v.8-, in the first half of the last week of 7 years-Dan.9:v.27, he will give to the guide of the RCC, the Pope, his Power, and his Throne, and great Authority-Rev.13:v.2.

The false messiah-Satan-son of perdition and MAN of sin, he will exerciseth all the power of the first Beast(the Pope) before him, and causeth the earth(Israel)and them which dwell therein to worship the first(MAN)Beast(the Pope),whose deadly wound was(will be)healed.Rev.13:v.12.

13 And he doeth (will do)great wonders,so that he(will)make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And(will)deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the Beast;saying to them that dwell on the earth(Israel),that they should make an image to the Beast(the Pope),which had the wound by a Sword, and did live.

The fulfilment of above will begin after the death of Pope Francis very soon.

Earl Bowman,

" Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tarsus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart (prince of Tarsus) is lifted up, and thine (prince of Tarsus) heart is lifted up, an thou hast said, I am a God, and I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet that art a MAN, and not God, though thou (prince of Tarsus) Set thine heart AS THE heart of God.

ALL MEN have the same problem; they want to EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE GOD.

ALL MEN START OUT AS (children of) SATAN."

Ezekiel 28:2 overshadows ( Isaiah 14:12-14) & ( 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

I like how the prophets intertwine and repeat messages; you will rarely see an error in their texts. The prophets are woefully underrated by the people, as the NT is their book of choice.

Brother Earl.

Part 1.

I'm sure we both know what I mean when I say literal. We know God don't have feathers as seen hear. Psalms 91:4.

We use good biblical hermeneutics.

To get the scope of Ezekiel addressing TYRE you have to start at Ezekiel 26. on through Ezekiel 28.

By the time we get to Ch 28 Ezekiel is shifting from the city of Tyre to the King of Tyre "the ruler." But notice he calls him the " PRINCE OF TYRE " That would be significant because it suggests that the Prince of Tyre has an authority over him.

The passages in Ezekiel 28 we see in verse 2. Ezekiel is addressing the "PRINCE OF TYRE."

By the time you get to Ezekiel 28:12. He's addressing the ( KING OF TYRE. )

Here He's addressing what's behind the prince of TYRE. ( The demonic influence of Lucifer. )

Ezekiel 28:2. Son of man, say unto the

( PRINCE OF TYRUS, )Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Ezekiel 28:12.

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the ( KING OF TYRUS,) and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

The king of Tyre shown below here in verse 13 says the king of Tyre been in Eden, ( The Garden of God )

I doubt the prince of Tyre have been there!!

Ezekiel 28:13.

THOU HAST BEEN IN EDEN THE GARDEN OF GOD; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Part 2. Coming.

I believe we're born Children of Adam.

Sold under sin and possibly in a sense Children of the Devil.

God bless.

Brother Jesse:

You said we have to take scripture as it is given to us so plainly.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tarsus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart (prince of Tarsus) is lifted up, and thine (prince of Tarsus) heart is lifted up, an thou hast said, I am a God, and I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet that art a MAN, and not God, though thou (prince of Tarsus) Set thine heart AS THE heart of God.

Ezekiel 28 12 Son of man, take up a LAMENTATION upon the king of Tarsus..

From verse 1 thru verse 19 God is taking to a man, the King of Tarsus.

ALL MEN have the same problem; they want to EXALT THEMSELVES ABOVE GOD.

ALL MEN START OUT AS (children of) SATAN.

Brother Earl.

You quoted:

" Brother S Spencer, I have not found anywhere in scripture that describes the cherub as being anything other than flaming swords (the word of God) of fire and the glory of God."

End quote.

Earl it seems to me you did find a scripture!! " The one I pasted!! I never gave an interpretation on it, You did!!

All I did was copy and paste it to Chris answering hi question.

And you came along and NAILED IT!!

Here's the pasted verse I used earlier pulled out of Ezekiel 28:12-18.

( Ezekiel 28:14.""THOU ART THE ANOINTED CHERUB"" that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.)

Incase one missed it, He's called a cherub again in Ezekiel 28:16.

YOU NAILED IT!! And disbelieve your own interpretation.

Look at Ezekiel 28:12-18. With that layed out detailed description how can you not take it literal!!

You said you have not found anywhere in scripture that describes the cherub as being anything other than flaming swords (the word of God) of fire and the glory of God."

Look at Ezekiel 28:18. .......I BRING FORTH A FIRE FROM THE MIDST OF THEE, IT SHALL DEVOUR THEE, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

"" So I suppose God is going to bring fire upon ( THE WORD OF GOD ) and DEVOUR it and bring it to ashes upon the earth?

You don't believe in a literal Satan, Oseas believes Satan seduced Eve but you guys agree with one another.

Of all the Amillennialist on this site you can't find 2 that agree on anything! But most of you claim being Spirit led.

People be careful of what's being presented to you and study scripture.

God bless.

Hi Brother Earl.

I agree, I don't think Lucifer was created perfect as far as "immune from Iniquity."

I believe his perfection is better described in verses 12 through 14.

He is described as if he's #1 in rank, or Complete for what he was created for.

""Thou sealest up the sum""

He also was ( THE ANOINTED CHERUB )

Ezekiel 28:12-13. Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; THOU SEALEST UP THE SUM, full of wisdom, and PERFECT IN BEAUTY.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; EVERY PRECIOUS STONE WAS THY COVERING, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: THE WORKMANSHIP OF THY TABRETS AND OF THY PIPES WAS PREPARED IN THEE IN THE DAY THAT THOU WAST CREATED.

THOU ART THE ANOINTED CHERUB THAT COVERED; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

THOU WAST PERFECT IN THY WAYS FROM THE DAY THAT THOU WAST CREATED, till iniquity was found in thee.

God bless.

Yes Chris better known as Lucifer and very high position of power and authority also He walked in the Garden of God Eden. Something else to keep in mind he was not this hideous beast, also the serpent description is a figure of speech for how sly he operates. Would Eve be so stupid to converse with a hideous beast or snake, not buying it. look at Ezekiel 28:12-17 very descriptive of satan, king of tyrus is figure of speech, noticed perfect until iniquity was found in thee.

Hi Chris.

I believe the scripture actually says I will be ( LIKE ) the most high. here's scripture:

Isaiah 14:12-14. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; "I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH."

Ezekiel 28:15. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

We often quote it as Satan wanted to be God or dethrone God. But there is a significant difference here that may be applicable for us today.

You see God shares his glory with NO creative being.

"" Isaiah 42:8. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.""

"" Jeremiah 9:23. Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:""

2 Corinthians 10:17. But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Considering Satans fall -

Here I believe we also should examine ourselves to see what's behind our Motives.

God bless.

Yes Chris better known as Lucifer and very high position of power and authority also He walked in the Garden of God Eden. Something else to keep in mind he was not this hideous beast, also the serpent description is a figure of speech for how sly he operates. Would Eve be so stupid to converse with a hideous beast or snake, not buying it. look at Ezekiel 28:12-17 very descriptive of satan, king of tyrus is figure of speech, noticed perfect until iniquity was found in thee.

TO ALL

Gen.1:2-This Scriptures were revealed to Moses around 2.500 years after Adam, beteween 2nd and 3rd Day.

Genesis 1:v.2 And the earth was without form,...

See, GOD was not speaking of the geometric form of the Planet Earth to Moses, which He "hangeth upon nothing"- Job 26:v.7-, no, absolutely, it because the geometric form of the Planet Earth around 6.000 years ago was the same it is today, of course. NOTE: To say the Planet Earth was without geometric form based in Genesis 1:v. 2 is ridiculous.

By the way, GOD had planted a wonderful Garden in Eden were a multitude was ruled by a powerful Cherub- Ezekiel 28:v.13-15 and Isaiah 14:v.12-12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!...

After the rebellion, the inhabitants of Eden, ruler by the fallen Cherub, were transformed into dust, dust of the earth, except the spirit, evidently ( Jude 1:v.6), and the earth did get consequently formless and empty, spiritually, everything was without form but not physically.

Please, re-study your LITERAL conceptions, many of them ridiculous, and cause a lot of mochery. The letter kills.

To the only Wise GOD our Saviour, be Glory and Majesty, Dominion and Power, both now and ever. Amen.





and void;

and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Ezekiel 28:12-15 (the king of Tyrus being another name for Satan.

As you can see not only was he in the garden of Eden, verse 15 he was perfect (good) until iniquity (sin) was found in him.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.

Satan started of good before becoming evil. One of satan's many names was the king/prince of Tyrus, Ezekiel, Ezekiel 28:13-15 let's us know he was in the garden of Eden, he was elevated to the anointed cherub that covereth perfect until sin was found in him ( started off good and turned evil).

My brother Chris, thank you the astute observations. There is a difference between the fall of the adversary and the final casting out of heaven. The fall, which occurred following Genesis 1:1 and the aftermath of God's judgment, which is found in Genesis 1:2; included the following consequences. Although still allowed access to heaven, the adversary was stripped of all authority and glory; he had been the adorned, anointed cherub that covereth. However, the beauty of his form was transformed into that of a serpent and a dragon; also, he was demoted to the lowly position of tempter ( Gen. 3:1; Matt. 4:3). All movement was restricted by God's "hook in his hose" ( Job 41:2); and any use of power required permission because God put a "double bridle" on him ( Job 41:13-14). Also, he had to regularly report with the regular angels ( Job 1:6; 2:1). This leads to the reason why he was not immediately destroyed.

Christ opened the spiritual matrix and became the firstfruits and prototype of all who inherit the kingdom of heaven. Similarly, God positioned the adversary as the one who opened the matrix, and created hell for him and the angels which are suggested in the plural pronoun "they" in mentioned in Ezekiel 28:16 and are mentioned in Jude 6 ( Matt. 25:41).

The eternal fate of all humankind is either heaven or hell. Water represents people ( Rev. 17:15). Therefore, for the duration of man's chronological week upon the earth following the fall of Adam and Eve, God is using Christ to draw up the Jordan River, which represents those who will inherit the kingdom, into His mouth ( Job 40:23). Conversely, he uses the adversary as the serpent who eats dust ( Gen. 3:14; 1 Pet. 5:8), from which man is made ( Gen. 2:7), and carry them along with him into hell.

These conditions surrounding the fall of the adversary were effective throughout the Old Testament. However, the final casting did not occur until the days of John the Baptist ( Matt. 11:12). See the following post.

Thank you once again for your comments, brother Leon. I generally understand & agree with your comments, but if I could direct you to what you wrote: "Following his fall, the adversary was relegated to the position of tempter. Just as he tempted Christ, he was only allowed in the garden to tempt Eve, who was then used to test Adam's loyalty to God."

I believe we have a problem here: Satan's fall is alluded to in Isaiah 14:12-15 & Ezekiel 28:12-19. And then we have Job 1:6,7. So the questions that arise are: at what point was Satan cast down to the Earth & were there two castings down? One, which caused Genesis 1:2 & another that brought on Genesis 3:1-15? For, if the first beautiful Earth was corrupted by reason of Satan's involvement, then where did he go between the first & second creations of Earth, since he lost his position in Heaven, no doubt?

Does Satan's "walking to & fro in the Earth & walking up & down in it" apply to the second creation of Earth, where we find him all over the Earth, including Eden, & then again some years later during the lifetime of Job? If that's the case, then he being wholly evil, walking all over this globe, causing mankind's fall & causing Job his ultimate test, surely must indicate that such evil must breed evil, not only to those tested but to all of 'groaning' creation so affected?

Therefore, looking at the Scriptures given by the Lord for us to work with, to have a two-Earth belief (once unformed & then reformed), becomes very difficult to acquiesce to, for Satan's position in either world, must mean a corruption of that world; i.e. if Satan was the reason for the first deformation, the reformation of the second must be likewise affected. Or, if God cleaned up the first then why permit Satan to be around to also affect the second? To be around again, just to test mankind's fidelity to Him, seems a weak reason in light of the extent of damage that was in Satan's power. The Lord be with you.

Brother Leon - greetings again & thank you for your detailed replies. I agree to the beauty of God's Handiwork & Artistry, and as in all artwork, "Beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder". What I might consider a grotesque, simplistic & meaningless piece of artwork when visiting an art gallery might well be a thing of beauty & rich in meaning to another, & therefore justifying its high price & demand. So, on this score, I don't see a formless, void, dark Earth as a creation of ugliness & deformity, but simply a part of the whole creation created by God having its own beauty painted by the Master Artist. Though, your next point concerning Eden requires comment.

You referred to Ezekiel 28:11-19 & Satan's position in Eden. Are you inferring two Edens? One before this 'deformation of the Earth' where the once anointed cherub was found & the second, after a 'reformed Earth' with a restored Eden, yet with the same fallen, iniquitous rebel roaming its pristine environs? If then God's Judgement brought on a deformed cursed Earth because of Satan's wickedness, how does it figure that this newly 'reformed' Earth could contain the same evil now on the prowl and not bring on further similar desolation? Would not the Earth need to return to its 'original state' as the prince of this world now reigns?

That is why I suggest that even though God's Judgement is sure & will always be evident now & in the future ages, the mentioning of the unformed barren Earth of Genesis, I don't believe is evidence of that judgement. And with so few verses available to form a qualified determination, my response, as in all such biblical scenarios, is to withdraw & accept the verses given without added interpretation. If giving them consideration, they would still remain to me as only hypotheses & add no value to knowledge or faith.

Peaceful salutations in His name! I thank God for you, Brother Chris! Your passion for God's word and the grace of Christ displayed in your replies are commendable! "Iron sharpens Iron" ( Prov. 27:17), which is why conversations such the ones we are having are very beneficial. In response to your initial question, God does not create anything that does not glorify Him, nor serve a purpose to fulfill His Divine will (Is. 45:7; Rev. 4:11). God is the Master Artist, and the created universe is His canvas. All strokes of the paint brush, and the colors and textures of all paints used are intentional.

Undoubtedly, the conditions in Genesis 1:2 were the result of God's judgment in the form of a Noahic-type flood in which He extracted all light and structure from the earth, leaving it in a "voided" state, the Biblical definition of which is associated with emptiness, desolation, and chaos. Scripture suggests the reason for God's judgment in Ezekiel 28:11-19. It speaks of the adversary, the old serpent ( Rev. 12:9), having been in the Garden of Eden, and subsequently being stripped of all his glory after iniquity was found in him and he became filled with violence because of his merchandise. If, indeed, the earth was the setting for this activity, and had become the product of such violence and corruption, it would definitely have prompted God's judgment. Keep in mind that violence and corruption impelled God to pass judgment in the form of the Noahic flood ( Gen. 6:10-13).

Following God's judgment, the evidence of which is found in Genesis 1:2, He presents Christ, His Son, in Genesis 1:3, who reintroduces light into the creation, reestablishes order, and proceeds to create. Today Christ continues to be the spiritual glue which holds the creation together and causes its harmonious functioning. Paul says, "by Him all things consist" ( Col. 1:17b).

Thank you Michael for that response. As you may anticipate, I refute practically everything you've stated about the Almighty God. I believe the fundamental flaw in your argument is that "God is to be held responsible for the origin of evilnessthat evil is in Jehovah's nature & expressed by His actions". I bring up three areas to consider:

a. if there is any evil within God, even a speck of it, then whatever goodness is there becomes tainted with evil. And this effectively makes the whole evil. So even the goodness of God is no longer pure but impure. I think you're saying that God is wholly evil without any goodness in Him. If that's the case, then what Scriptures are you reading that show this & what Scriptures are you avoiding that show His Goodness to man. God can't be good & evil simultaneously. You would need to cite a couple of examples.

b. the origin of evil does not come from God but from Satan. Ezekiel 28:12-15 speaks of the King of Tyrus, but clearly the content of those verses point to Satan, the spirit indwelling the king. Satan was "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." God didn't create evil in that cherub, evil was found in him. Evil can enter when we are given the power of choice: Satan fell, Adam & Eve fell, & all who are born with such flesh.

c. what you've read in the Bible that presents God with an evil component in Himself is likely man's own belief of what is wrong or unfair & not from Truth. As created beings we might demand rightness from the Creator, when in fact the Creator has the right to demand of us & to do with us as He pleases: Romans 9:19-23. Are you then unmindful of this Truth of the Sovereignty & Wisdom of God? You've mentioned Eden & the temptations given to Jesus; why would you think that God instigated such things for evil? Yes, He could have prevented them but that certainly does not indicate any wrongdoing. We can never be in the place of God & He doesn't reveal all.