Concluding thoughts on death; the afterlife (maybe for real this time).
I guess I'd do better with a 10000 character limitation to these posts; although the reader may not have an appetite for that.
Anyway; another point here will fling to a common defence quoting Deuteronomy 29:29. Some things are hidden to us.
Feel free in dissenting viewpoints to doubt my compassion in making such harsh statements. I consider it necessary information.
The harsh reality is that none of us can bear in our natural minds to think of anyone lost and suffering eternal punishment. It seems to trigger a desire to find a believer and just ask for a hug or something for reassurance. We instinctually know as children to seek such comfort from a parent; but no human can offer any assurance that they will be there to greet us after they leave this earth from heaven or a "better place" in their imagination that is made up to substitute for God's atoning death and substitutionary redemption of His people. To take the example before of what a lost person would want those surviving on earth to know; surely a saved person would say something similar. The only example of that perhaps is when Samuel is disturbed by Saul; it ( 1 Samuel 28:15). It didn't go well for Saul; needless to say even if this really was Samuel's spirit risen from rest in the afterlife. We can be certain that those in heaven would feel sorry for us and think it odd or silly that we are feeling sad for them in some ways. Also we can realize that those spiritually dead but still LIVING on earth have no idea or concept of that fact; they cannot fathom anything LIVING that has passed from all they have known in this life with the body and all its 5 senses perished.
Maybe I'm focused more now than I've ever been watching my parents in their nineties whose bodies and minds are decaying.
God help all of us including myself not to hold onto one more day on earth because we want that more than being in His presence
Apologies for the delay in responding to your question, KD7IVS.
We see these names, Urim & Thummim mentioned in various passages (e.g. Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, Numbers 27:21). Not much is known about them (there is even ignorance & debate amongst the Jews about this), except that they were likely stones (maybe precious stones) that were placed in the Jewish high priest's "breastplate of judgement"; sometimes referred to as the "breastplate of decision". Within that breastplate were also the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, so it appears that there might be a connection there, where the high priest used these stones to determine God's Will in certain situations concerning Israel.
How God chose to guide the priest to a correct judgement/decision is not told us: whether by the appearance of Light (Urim) or Perfections or declaration of Truth (Thummim). In 1 Samuel 28:6 which you referred to, we read of King Saul making enquiry of the LORD, but the LORD did not speak to him, whether by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by the prophets. This then seems to be some of the ways that God revealed His Word to His people, and these stones, Urim & Thummin, were used by the High Priest to learn the answer from God for the people.
Are you referring to verse 7? I see it spelled (Endor) in the KJV
I then see it spelled En Dor in Bible Hub interlinear study
However you spell it she's a Medium .
Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after those having occult knowledge, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Familiar spiritS - These are evil spirits personating dead human beings, and attaching themselves only to "mediums" and those who give up their will to them.
1Samuel 28:11-12,14, 1Samuel 28:15, says & "Samuel said" it has been noted in the Bible even in this very chapter that it's wicked & under GOD's laws penalty of death. Exodus 22:18, 1Samuel 28:3
GOD had left Saul, 1Samuel 28:6 because Saul 1st left GOD in all his doings, 1Samuel 13, 1Samuel 14, & 15, including killing GOD's priests 1Samuel 22:11-19, & pursued trying to kill David his faithful servant, son-in-law & person GOD used to save Israel & Saul's throne. 1Samuel 16:21, 1Samuel 17,
it lead to an evil spirit harrassing him. Even before he killed GOD's Priests. 1Samuel 16:23, 1Samuel 18:10-12,
1Samuel 15:23,
Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 18:10,
In Egypt & Babylon people practiced evil that had effects yet GOD always proves to be GOD ALMIGHTY. Exodus 1, begins the events
Daniel 1, starts Daniel's account in Babylon..
Even in the last days there will be false signs & wonders. Revelation 13,
It's important to know the power of GOD & stay far from evil .
The power of GOD= heals, sets free, saves, brings justice, redeems, supernaturally protects, HIS HOLY Spirit brings peace, wisdom, understanding, hope & joy beyond understanding.
Agreed. Believers have no business delving into these practices as they open doors to wicked influences. But I do think believers need to be aware of the subtle "doors" to occult practices. Yoga and mindfulness are a couple even if it is packaged as Christian yoga or mindfulness. Also, seeking supernatural experiences concerning the "presence" of the Holy Spirit, such as "holy laughter" "being drunk in the spirit" "feeling electricity going through one's body". Seeking the experience and not truth is dangerous in some ways. I am not saying that someone cannot be moved by the Spirit or feel the Spirit pressing on one to pray or do or say a specific thing. I have had such experiences, but I did not go seeking to be "receive an anointing or blessing" for these things to happen to me. Those who are experience seekers or wishing for a hyper emotional encounter with the Holy Spirit are often introduced to occult influences under the guise of a "blessing" or "anointing" or "encounter" or with the Holy Spirit. Scripture calls us to be sober minded and reverent in our approach to God. Since He is in charge and decides when and how He will impact us, there isn't a need to seek or press for such an experience. The Lord will bring it to us at the right time and in the right situation.
In today's church environment, there is a lot of new age or occultic practices being introduced repeatedly over the past decades. We all should be wary of anything that is the "new" thing in church circles. We need to keep our guard up, especially if we participate in a charismatic or pentecostal type of fellowship. I am not bashing these types of churches, but, just like the Catholic churches, "new" ways of accessing the Holy Spirit have cropped up over the last years that lead into occult influences. This is called syncretism, which is blending occult or pagan practices with Christian practices, often with seemingly "spiritual" Christian sounding names and descriptions. Let's be wise.
Loved this! Thank you. And this tells us we had better fear going to witches, psychics, palm readers, tarot, astrologists, horoscopes, angel card readers, crystal ball readers, black magic, white magic, ouija boards, satanism, Wicca, yoga, etc. and so on and so forth. These things are a giant no no!But the Bible also says that REBELLION is as the sin of witchcraft. I fear THE LORD of hosts! Saul was desperate when he consulted with the witch of Endor. Even she was terrified. She thought she would be killed. If I remember correctly. I always warn people about going anywhere but to the Lord. And to stay far away from any occult or new age practices.
I was just reading up on Saul in 1 Samuel 10 and 13. I think the kingship was taken from Saul because: first He offered a sacrifice to YHWH without Samuel, violating the commandment that the priests are to offer the sacrifice; and second, When Saul and his army went out to defeat the Amalekites, Saul took Agag the Amalekite king as a captive, destroyed all of the other Amalekites, took the best cattle and booty from the plunder. God had instructed Saul to completely wipe out the Amalekites, leaving NO survivors and destroy ALL of the Amalekites' possessions and their habitations, EVERTHING belonging to the Amalekites. Thirdly, Saul set up a monument to Himself in Carmel instead of a memorial to YHWH.
On his way back from Carmel to Samuel, Saul stated "I have kept the commandments of the LORD."
God had already told Samuel that the kingship and anointing of the Holy Spirit will be removed from Saul because of these sins (which included pride, independence from God, self-righteousness, etc.)
After the Holy Spirit left him, Saul was given an evil spirit within himself that distressed him, depressed him, and caused his mind to play "mind-games" within himself. After this time, Saul went to the witch of Endor to have her conure up the spirit of Samuel (who had died and also, had never spoke to Saul again after the encounter with Saul returning from Carmel and Saul's lack of remorse and repentance.) Saul wanted Samuel to give him the inside scoop for the upcoming battle with the Philistines (since the LORD no longer spoke to Saul to guide him in war).
This is where David come into the picture. Saul wanted a musician to play for him in hopes to soothe his vexed soul. David was recommended and chosen by Saul. David's music helped Saul' mood and lifted the oppression of the evil spirit for a time until David needed to be called again and again to play for Saul. Thus began the relationship of Saul/David/Jonathan. It was good at first. then went bad in time.
1 Samuel 28:19. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Brother Earl God did not communicate with the witch scriptural proof 1 Samuel 28:6 and when Saul inquired of the lord the lord answered him not neither by dreams nor nor by urim nor by prophets.
Thank you Rick. As I mentioned earlier, I am totally unfamiliar with such manifestations except what we read in the Word. In the case of the witch of Endor, the first clue I gained was the utter surprise of the witch when a spirit (of Samuel) appeared instead of what was the usual appearances of evil spirit manifestations ( 1 Samuel 28:12). Would a necromancer be shocked at an appearance of one that was not what she was familiar with? Maybe these spirits appear in a special way or form that wouldn't surprise or affright her, but it seems that this was not the case with Samuel.
And secondly, if it was an evil spirit, how did it know (or, prophesy) of an occurrence that was not known earlier ( 1 Samuel 28:19, "to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines")? I understand what you wrote, that even the devils can know this, when you wrote about the adversary the father of lies, "Remember in Genesis thou shalt not die", referring to Genesis 3:4. Yet, Satan there could only say that because God had already told Adam that. Could Satan prophesy of coming events, whether of Israel, the nations or the future of the world?
I do thank you for your explanation brother & it was certainly worth considering, but there are still a couple of these hurdles I need to get over to be fully persuaded - if you or someone can provide some Scripture to show that even Satan & his devils can foretell future events without those events already declared by God prophetically, I would be grateful.
Thank you Rick. I have also heard from others that which you have written, that the spirit that appeared before the witch was demonic.
The question then: can an impersonating demonic spirit say what he did in 1 Samuel 28:15-20? I have to admit my ignorance on how the spirit of a person wherever it may be located, can be called up to appear, present himself & speak. If this was an (evil) demonic spirit, are then the words it expressed also be considered truth, for it is evident, that an evil spirit cannot bring forth God's Message? Unless of course, that wasn't truth that was given & the whole scenario was a falsehood & should be altogether removed. Samuel however, does give us a clue: he said, "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up"? (v 15). It appears that Samuel's spirit was at rest at some place (in the OT economy), for he was brought up (up from where?). We need to consider the whole portion & come to our own understanding.
Hello Bill & thank you once again. As I understand from your earlier post, that you also believe that 'sleep' in this instance, refers to death. It being a euphemism, unlike 'trust' (in your example), which isn't one. That being the case, 'sleeping in the salvation of Jesus', seems fine in one sense, yet doesn't fit the context here. Paul is writing to the Thessalonians because of their concern & sorrow that those who have departed earlier have altogether disappeared from view. So Paul says, that those who have died may indeed have their bodies in the grave, but when Jesus comes, He will bring those very persons back to Earth with Him ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14). There is no break in the train of thought here (from verses 13-18).
Re: 1 Samuel 28:11-20. This is in the OT economy, where we can understand that Samuel's spirit, & of those deemed righteous, were in a holding place of comfort, even as Jesus outlined in Luke 16:19-31. After the crucifixion & resurrection, we don't find evidence of such a place of rest for the believer.
With the account of the rich man & Lazarus, we might have to defer on that, as I feel, if Lazarus didn't exist, then really none of the other details would make sense & would have to be treated metaphorically (i.e. no place of punishment & suffering).
"Jesus restored life to at least three (3) bodies, for these are recorded", you wrote. Sorry, I need enlightening: where is this number recorded? I only know of, "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose", without giving a number. Many thanks again, brother.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) -"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.". Have you considered "sleep in Jesus" as referring to the believers that sleep in the salvation of Jesus and not in some place in which Jesus is present (heaven)? Saying that I trust in Jesus does not actually mean that I am attached or embodied in Jesus. It means that I trust in what Jesus stands for as my salvation and eternal life with Him.
Sorry about my misunderstanding as to the Lazarus in your prior comment. Lazarus had died, no doubt in any Christian's mind. The body was decomposing as Mary told Christ. Christ recalled the spirit, some may soul, of Lazarus and the body was restored to life until the appointed time for the spirit to exit the body later. That the spirit resides somewhere accessible is not the question; the question is where. I find no concrete evidence it is in heaven either before or after the resurrection.
Case in point, 1 Samuel 28:11-20. The spirit of Samuel was brought from its resting place for Saul. Granted, God can do and/or permit ALL THINGS. Personally, I can not accept the spirit of Samuel was recalled from heaven, but it could have been.
As to the use of the name "Lazarus" in the parable of the poor beggar, the Hebrew meaning of Lazarus, (Hebrew, , means "God Has Helped". Thus, the use of "Lazarus" reinforces the intended meaning of the parable and invites no questioning as to the name after the parable is concluded.
Matthew 27:52,53 is another example of the unlimited power of God. Jesus restored life to at least three (3) bodies, for these are recorded. There was an earthquake that could have opened graves. Those brought to life are called "saints". Those raised would have been known in Jerusalem to have died. This, to me, is an act of confirming Christ's holiness and coming resurrection in three (3) days.
Thanks brother Adam for your reply. I agree, "sleep is a state of rest" & being oblivious to everything through our nightly sleep, we can be thankful to the Lord that we still have life & breath - not so for those who've died (slept with no awakening & eventually reduced to dust). But your second paragraph statement seemed to imply that "between death & Jesus' return" we will still be 'altogether' (body, or what's left of it, & the spirit) waiting for the call.
Concerning man's spirit. My understanding that a spirit has no physical properties - that it is the essence of a person (the body being a covering for our functions & recognition). If "the spirit of man goeth upwards" & Jesus spoke of "fearing not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul", they seem to confirm that the immaterial part of us (the real 'us'), cannot be destroyed & remains accountable to the One Who gave it.
Those 'out of body' experiences, even the one you had after your accident, demonstrates that the spirit that gives life to the body, can return (& must return) for that body to resume functioning. But at death, the spirit is gone, unless, as Jesus brought back the spirit into people (e.g. Lazarus, Jairus' daughter). If the spirit goes, then to where? With ghosts & apparitions, I know nothing - maybe demonic activity or their impersonations. But then we have 1 Samuel 28:7-15, which can lead us to think of a departed soul in a resting place (OT economy). If for Samuel, then why not others who have departed? Should not our spirits leave the body & as in Paul's case have access to Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 12:1-4)? So "if the dead in Christ shall rise first", the spirit that once left it, must rejoin it. The question remains, where goes the spirit of man? If we maintain that the body sleeps, then we should also answer, where does his spirit reside? Is it still active & alert in another place or hovering over a body that is long gone? For the believer, I believe it's in Heaven.
Did you notice? David feared GOD & would not lay his hand on GOD's anointted & felt remorseful for cutting Saul's garment.
1 Samuel 24:4,5,6 , 1 Samuel 24:10,
Saul also ripped Samuel's garment 1 Samuel 15:27 however 1 Samuel 15:28-29. Even after remorseful repentance 1 Samuel 15:29,30,35
Do think the significance of the clothing was a factor? 1 Samuel 2:19, His mother's sacrifice 1 Samuel 1:28
Saul pursued David to kill him: 1 Samuel 19:1,10,11,15,
& Saul ordered the prophets of GOD killed, possibly unarmed, their families, livestock & nursing babies included.; 1 Samuel 22:17,18,19 Same Saul that left the enemy King & livestock alive in disobedience to GOD's orders. 1 Samuel 15:1,2,3,8,9,
Psalms 105:15
David's mercy 2 Samuel 9:3-7,
David's sin & judgement: 2 Samuel 12:7,9,11,12,14,18, 2 Samuel 13:1,6,7,8,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,28,29,30,31,32, after years 2 Samuel 14:25,30,31,32, 2 Samuel 15:6,10,12,13,14,16,23,30,31, 2 Samuel 16:3,5,6,7,8,11,13,22, 2 Samuel 17:21,23,29, 2 Samuel 18:5,7,9,10,12,14,15,17,20,27,32,33, 2 Samuel 19:1-4, "the sword did not depart from his house" etc. There were more scriptures about his consequences _.
Queen Vashti, consequence Ester 1:19, Ester 2:4
Saul then 1 Samuel 28:3,7,18,19
David has Psalms of remorseful repentance, gives glory to GOD ALMIGHTY, shows mercy & humility at times. With Saul he shows remorse but didn't read much of repentance, etc.
In this sad account, we see that the prophet Samuel was already dead with his body in the grave at Ramah (v3) & King Saul was asking the Lord concerning the battle before him, since he was completely outnumbered by the enemy (the Philistines). King Saul had earlier decreed that the practice of wizardry, necromancy, etc. was forbidden, however, since God had chosen not to answer Saul's prayers about this battle, Saul, in subterfuge, turned to a woman who still quietly dabbled in witchcraft.
The woman was hesitant to do this because of the King's edict, but Saul, who was disguised, assured her that nothing would happen to her. This woman, as others who practised these 'arts', usually operated by using deceit, voice impersonations & other means to satisfy their enquirers. Sometimes of course, impersonating evil spirits would be roused up & make their presence known. But here in this account, the spirit & vision of dead Samuel had appeared to the woman, to which she took great fright because her 'art' was actually producing an actual real event, which was very unusual for her. I would understand that this was an exception to the rule: that God had allowed this to take place for Saul's sake. God had refused to speak to Saul earlier because of his sins, disobedience & hatred of David, but now chose to allow this 'word from Samuel' to cause him great despair.
This account reminds us of Jesus' story about the rich man & Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), where both the rich man & Lazarus were in hell (though Lazarus was in comfort & the other in torment). The rich man pleaded that Lazarus be sent back to Earth to warn his five brothers about the condition of their lives & not end up where he was, but Jesus said that his brothers had the Scriptures from God to warn them. So it implies that the spirit of Lazarus could have been sent to Earth to warn, but God chose not to. But in Saul's case, God had allowed this to happen & used it to foretell of Israel's defeat & Saul's death.
Read the Chapters these scriptures are in, to see what was going on at those times, to cause disquietedness in these people's lives:
1 Samuel 28:15
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Psalms 39:6
Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.
Psalms 42:5
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.
Psalms 42:11
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
Psalms 43:5
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
Proverbs 30:21
For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear:
Disquieted in Proverbs 30, interestingly is a prophetic book speaking to the signs of the Times we are living in Now.
Describing this Generation of people's living on the earth. Even describing the riots in our cities:
the hatred of our young people against their own parents
The hatred against racial injustice,
Hatred against upper class, middle class, and lower class, that suffer need for everything.
Hatred for generations that did nothing (in their perception) to save the earth, prevent global warming, killing animals into extinction, ethnic cleansing of whole nations of people to take their lands for their own greedy reasons.
As they erupt in anger, so will the earth respond in kind.
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
1 Samuel 18:10
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.
1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1 Samuel 16:15
And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1 Samuel 19:9
And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.
1 Samuel 19:20
And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.
1 Samuel 11:6
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his ANGER was kindled greatly.
1 Samuel 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Acts 19:15
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
>>Most of Sauls problems were of pride. The people wanted a King and God gave them what they wanted; which was for someone else to be a go-between so they didn't have to speak to God.
Rebellion is AS the sin of witchcraft. Saul sought out witches.
The day he "died" he prohibited the customary sacrifice to God for victory in Battle; and told the soldiers He would be their sacrifice! Saul and his 2 sons all died.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Mishael> Saul was consulting with the witch at Endor, instead of consulting with God. God rejected Saul for it; Sent Samuel to tell him that.
It's a good story to read. Reading horoscopes is an abomination also. Search on the word 'witches' and it will fetch all those verses.
I believe your right...This message came from God, not from a spirit conjured up by a witch.... God knew that Saul was going to see this witch, and God made sure Saul learned a lesson....
I have studied this story many times because I believe it is a warning to those who would become involved in witchcraft to see what happened to King Saul because he believed a witch had power. She screamed when she saw Samuel, so she didn't bring him up from the dead. Only God has power over life and death. On TV and movies actors try to convince people they are powerful.
I guess I'd do better with a 10000 character limitation to these posts; although the reader may not have an appetite for that.
Anyway; another point here will fling to a common defence quoting Deuteronomy 29:29. Some things are hidden to us.
Feel free in dissenting viewpoints to doubt my compassion in making such harsh statements. I consider it necessary information.
The harsh reality is that none of us can bear in our natural minds to think of anyone lost and suffering eternal punishment. It seems to trigger a desire to find a believer and just ask for a hug or something for reassurance. We instinctually know as children to seek such comfort from a parent; but no human can offer any assurance that they will be there to greet us after they leave this earth from heaven or a "better place" in their imagination that is made up to substitute for God's atoning death and substitutionary redemption of His people. To take the example before of what a lost person would want those surviving on earth to know; surely a saved person would say something similar. The only example of that perhaps is when Samuel is disturbed by Saul; it ( 1 Samuel 28:15). It didn't go well for Saul; needless to say even if this really was Samuel's spirit risen from rest in the afterlife. We can be certain that those in heaven would feel sorry for us and think it odd or silly that we are feeling sad for them in some ways. Also we can realize that those spiritually dead but still LIVING on earth have no idea or concept of that fact; they cannot fathom anything LIVING that has passed from all they have known in this life with the body and all its 5 senses perished.
Maybe I'm focused more now than I've ever been watching my parents in their nineties whose bodies and minds are decaying.
God help all of us including myself not to hold onto one more day on earth because we want that more than being in His presence
We see these names, Urim & Thummim mentioned in various passages (e.g. Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, Numbers 27:21). Not much is known about them (there is even ignorance & debate amongst the Jews about this), except that they were likely stones (maybe precious stones) that were placed in the Jewish high priest's "breastplate of judgement"; sometimes referred to as the "breastplate of decision". Within that breastplate were also the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, so it appears that there might be a connection there, where the high priest used these stones to determine God's Will in certain situations concerning Israel.
How God chose to guide the priest to a correct judgement/decision is not told us: whether by the appearance of Light (Urim) or Perfections or declaration of Truth (Thummim). In 1 Samuel 28:6 which you referred to, we read of King Saul making enquiry of the LORD, but the LORD did not speak to him, whether by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by the prophets. This then seems to be some of the ways that God revealed His Word to His people, and these stones, Urim & Thummin, were used by the High Priest to learn the answer from God for the people.
I then see it spelled En Dor in Bible Hub interlinear study
However you spell it she's a Medium .
Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after those having occult knowledge, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
Familiar spiritS - These are evil spirits personating dead human beings, and attaching themselves only to "mediums" and those who give up their will to them.
It seems that the English translation of "Endor" should be "Ein Dor".
GOD had left Saul, 1Samuel 28:6 because Saul 1st left GOD in all his doings, 1Samuel 13, 1Samuel 14, & 15, including killing GOD's priests 1Samuel 22:11-19, & pursued trying to kill David his faithful servant, son-in-law & person GOD used to save Israel & Saul's throne. 1Samuel 16:21, 1Samuel 17,
it lead to an evil spirit harrassing him. Even before he killed GOD's Priests. 1Samuel 16:23, 1Samuel 18:10-12,
1Samuel 15:23,
Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 18:10,
In Egypt & Babylon people practiced evil that had effects yet GOD always proves to be GOD ALMIGHTY. Exodus 1, begins the events
Daniel 1, starts Daniel's account in Babylon..
Even in the last days there will be false signs & wonders. Revelation 13,
It's important to know the power of GOD & stay far from evil .
The power of GOD= heals, sets free, saves, brings justice, redeems, supernaturally protects, HIS HOLY Spirit brings peace, wisdom, understanding, hope & joy beyond understanding.
Agreed. Believers have no business delving into these practices as they open doors to wicked influences. But I do think believers need to be aware of the subtle "doors" to occult practices. Yoga and mindfulness are a couple even if it is packaged as Christian yoga or mindfulness. Also, seeking supernatural experiences concerning the "presence" of the Holy Spirit, such as "holy laughter" "being drunk in the spirit" "feeling electricity going through one's body". Seeking the experience and not truth is dangerous in some ways. I am not saying that someone cannot be moved by the Spirit or feel the Spirit pressing on one to pray or do or say a specific thing. I have had such experiences, but I did not go seeking to be "receive an anointing or blessing" for these things to happen to me. Those who are experience seekers or wishing for a hyper emotional encounter with the Holy Spirit are often introduced to occult influences under the guise of a "blessing" or "anointing" or "encounter" or with the Holy Spirit. Scripture calls us to be sober minded and reverent in our approach to God. Since He is in charge and decides when and how He will impact us, there isn't a need to seek or press for such an experience. The Lord will bring it to us at the right time and in the right situation.
In today's church environment, there is a lot of new age or occultic practices being introduced repeatedly over the past decades. We all should be wary of anything that is the "new" thing in church circles. We need to keep our guard up, especially if we participate in a charismatic or pentecostal type of fellowship. I am not bashing these types of churches, but, just like the Catholic churches, "new" ways of accessing the Holy Spirit have cropped up over the last years that lead into occult influences. This is called syncretism, which is blending occult or pagan practices with Christian practices, often with seemingly "spiritual" Christian sounding names and descriptions. Let's be wise.
I was just reading up on Saul in 1 Samuel 10 and 13. I think the kingship was taken from Saul because: first He offered a sacrifice to YHWH without Samuel, violating the commandment that the priests are to offer the sacrifice; and second, When Saul and his army went out to defeat the Amalekites, Saul took Agag the Amalekite king as a captive, destroyed all of the other Amalekites, took the best cattle and booty from the plunder. God had instructed Saul to completely wipe out the Amalekites, leaving NO survivors and destroy ALL of the Amalekites' possessions and their habitations, EVERTHING belonging to the Amalekites. Thirdly, Saul set up a monument to Himself in Carmel instead of a memorial to YHWH.
On his way back from Carmel to Samuel, Saul stated "I have kept the commandments of the LORD."
God had already told Samuel that the kingship and anointing of the Holy Spirit will be removed from Saul because of these sins (which included pride, independence from God, self-righteousness, etc.)
After the Holy Spirit left him, Saul was given an evil spirit within himself that distressed him, depressed him, and caused his mind to play "mind-games" within himself. After this time, Saul went to the witch of Endor to have her conure up the spirit of Samuel (who had died and also, had never spoke to Saul again after the encounter with Saul returning from Carmel and Saul's lack of remorse and repentance.) Saul wanted Samuel to give him the inside scoop for the upcoming battle with the Philistines (since the LORD no longer spoke to Saul to guide him in war).
This is where David come into the picture. Saul wanted a musician to play for him in hopes to soothe his vexed soul. David was recommended and chosen by Saul. David's music helped Saul' mood and lifted the oppression of the evil spirit for a time until David needed to be called again and again to play for Saul. Thus began the relationship of Saul/David/Jonathan. It was good at first. then went bad in time.
Saul was consulting with witches and spirits of the dead. This is why Gods anointing left him.
I believe this is what you are looking for.
1 Samuel 28:19. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
And secondly, if it was an evil spirit, how did it know (or, prophesy) of an occurrence that was not known earlier ( 1 Samuel 28:19, "to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines")? I understand what you wrote, that even the devils can know this, when you wrote about the adversary the father of lies, "Remember in Genesis thou shalt not die", referring to Genesis 3:4. Yet, Satan there could only say that because God had already told Adam that. Could Satan prophesy of coming events, whether of Israel, the nations or the future of the world?
I do thank you for your explanation brother & it was certainly worth considering, but there are still a couple of these hurdles I need to get over to be fully persuaded - if you or someone can provide some Scripture to show that even Satan & his devils can foretell future events without those events already declared by God prophetically, I would be grateful.
The question then: can an impersonating demonic spirit say what he did in 1 Samuel 28:15-20? I have to admit my ignorance on how the spirit of a person wherever it may be located, can be called up to appear, present himself & speak. If this was an (evil) demonic spirit, are then the words it expressed also be considered truth, for it is evident, that an evil spirit cannot bring forth God's Message? Unless of course, that wasn't truth that was given & the whole scenario was a falsehood & should be altogether removed. Samuel however, does give us a clue: he said, "why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up"? (v 15). It appears that Samuel's spirit was at rest at some place (in the OT economy), for he was brought up (up from where?). We need to consider the whole portion & come to our own understanding.
Re: 1 Samuel 28:11-20. This is in the OT economy, where we can understand that Samuel's spirit, & of those deemed righteous, were in a holding place of comfort, even as Jesus outlined in Luke 16:19-31. After the crucifixion & resurrection, we don't find evidence of such a place of rest for the believer.
With the account of the rich man & Lazarus, we might have to defer on that, as I feel, if Lazarus didn't exist, then really none of the other details would make sense & would have to be treated metaphorically (i.e. no place of punishment & suffering).
"Jesus restored life to at least three (3) bodies, for these are recorded", you wrote. Sorry, I need enlightening: where is this number recorded? I only know of, "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose", without giving a number. Many thanks again, brother.
Thank you for your kind comments.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) -"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.". Have you considered "sleep in Jesus" as referring to the believers that sleep in the salvation of Jesus and not in some place in which Jesus is present (heaven)? Saying that I trust in Jesus does not actually mean that I am attached or embodied in Jesus. It means that I trust in what Jesus stands for as my salvation and eternal life with Him.
Sorry about my misunderstanding as to the Lazarus in your prior comment. Lazarus had died, no doubt in any Christian's mind. The body was decomposing as Mary told Christ. Christ recalled the spirit, some may soul, of Lazarus and the body was restored to life until the appointed time for the spirit to exit the body later. That the spirit resides somewhere accessible is not the question; the question is where. I find no concrete evidence it is in heaven either before or after the resurrection.
Case in point, 1 Samuel 28:11-20. The spirit of Samuel was brought from its resting place for Saul. Granted, God can do and/or permit ALL THINGS. Personally, I can not accept the spirit of Samuel was recalled from heaven, but it could have been.
As to the use of the name "Lazarus" in the parable of the poor beggar, the Hebrew meaning of Lazarus, (Hebrew, , means "God Has Helped". Thus, the use of "Lazarus" reinforces the intended meaning of the parable and invites no questioning as to the name after the parable is concluded.
Matthew 27:52,53 is another example of the unlimited power of God. Jesus restored life to at least three (3) bodies, for these are recorded. There was an earthquake that could have opened graves. Those brought to life are called "saints". Those raised would have been known in Jerusalem to have died. This, to me, is an act of confirming Christ's holiness and coming resurrection in three (3) days.
Concerning man's spirit. My understanding that a spirit has no physical properties - that it is the essence of a person (the body being a covering for our functions & recognition). If "the spirit of man goeth upwards" & Jesus spoke of "fearing not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul", they seem to confirm that the immaterial part of us (the real 'us'), cannot be destroyed & remains accountable to the One Who gave it.
Those 'out of body' experiences, even the one you had after your accident, demonstrates that the spirit that gives life to the body, can return (& must return) for that body to resume functioning. But at death, the spirit is gone, unless, as Jesus brought back the spirit into people (e.g. Lazarus, Jairus' daughter). If the spirit goes, then to where? With ghosts & apparitions, I know nothing - maybe demonic activity or their impersonations. But then we have 1 Samuel 28:7-15, which can lead us to think of a departed soul in a resting place (OT economy). If for Samuel, then why not others who have departed? Should not our spirits leave the body & as in Paul's case have access to Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 12:1-4)? So "if the dead in Christ shall rise first", the spirit that once left it, must rejoin it. The question remains, where goes the spirit of man? If we maintain that the body sleeps, then we should also answer, where does his spirit reside? Is it still active & alert in another place or hovering over a body that is long gone? For the believer, I believe it's in Heaven.
1 Samuel 24:4,5,6 , 1 Samuel 24:10,
Saul also ripped Samuel's garment 1 Samuel 15:27 however 1 Samuel 15:28-29. Even after remorseful repentance 1 Samuel 15:29,30,35
Do think the significance of the clothing was a factor? 1 Samuel 2:19, His mother's sacrifice 1 Samuel 1:28
Saul pursued David to kill him: 1 Samuel 19:1,10,11,15,
& Saul ordered the prophets of GOD killed, possibly unarmed, their families, livestock & nursing babies included.; 1 Samuel 22:17,18,19 Same Saul that left the enemy King & livestock alive in disobedience to GOD's orders. 1 Samuel 15:1,2,3,8,9,
Psalms 105:15
David's mercy 2 Samuel 9:3-7,
David's sin & judgement: 2 Samuel 12:7,9,11,12,14,18, 2 Samuel 13:1,6,7,8,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,28,29,30,31,32, after years 2 Samuel 14:25,30,31,32, 2 Samuel 15:6,10,12,13,14,16,23,30,31, 2 Samuel 16:3,5,6,7,8,11,13,22, 2 Samuel 17:21,23,29, 2 Samuel 18:5,7,9,10,12,14,15,17,20,27,32,33, 2 Samuel 19:1-4, "the sword did not depart from his house" etc. There were more scriptures about his consequences _.
Queen Vashti, consequence Ester 1:19, Ester 2:4
Saul then 1 Samuel 28:3,7,18,19
David has Psalms of remorseful repentance, gives glory to GOD ALMIGHTY, shows mercy & humility at times. With Saul he shows remorse but didn't read much of repentance, etc.
However the Bible says: 1 Colossians 1:20,
Job 12:16
Hopefully these are helpful in your study.
The woman was hesitant to do this because of the King's edict, but Saul, who was disguised, assured her that nothing would happen to her. This woman, as others who practised these 'arts', usually operated by using deceit, voice impersonations & other means to satisfy their enquirers. Sometimes of course, impersonating evil spirits would be roused up & make their presence known. But here in this account, the spirit & vision of dead Samuel had appeared to the woman, to which she took great fright because her 'art' was actually producing an actual real event, which was very unusual for her. I would understand that this was an exception to the rule: that God had allowed this to take place for Saul's sake. God had refused to speak to Saul earlier because of his sins, disobedience & hatred of David, but now chose to allow this 'word from Samuel' to cause him great despair.
This account reminds us of Jesus' story about the rich man & Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31), where both the rich man & Lazarus were in hell (though Lazarus was in comfort & the other in torment). The rich man pleaded that Lazarus be sent back to Earth to warn his five brothers about the condition of their lives & not end up where he was, but Jesus said that his brothers had the Scriptures from God to warn them. So it implies that the spirit of Lazarus could have been sent to Earth to warn, but God chose not to. But in Saul's case, God had allowed this to happen & used it to foretell of Israel's defeat & Saul's death.
1 Samuel 28:15
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Psalms 39:6
Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.
Psalms 42:5
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.
Psalms 42:11
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
Psalms 43:5
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.
Proverbs 30:21
For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear:
Disquieted in Proverbs 30, interestingly is a prophetic book speaking to the signs of the Times we are living in Now.
Describing this Generation of people's living on the earth. Even describing the riots in our cities:
the hatred of our young people against their own parents
The hatred against racial injustice,
Hatred against upper class, middle class, and lower class, that suffer need for everything.
Hatred for generations that did nothing (in their perception) to save the earth, prevent global warming, killing animals into extinction, ethnic cleansing of whole nations of people to take their lands for their own greedy reasons.
As they erupt in anger, so will the earth respond in kind.
Mishael.
1 Samuel 28 &
1 Samuel 16:23
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
1 Samuel 18:10
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.
1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1 Samuel 16:15
And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1 Samuel 19:9
And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.
1 Samuel 19:20
And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.
1 Samuel 11:6
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his ANGER was kindled greatly.
1 Samuel 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Acts 19:15
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
>>Most of Sauls problems were of pride. The people wanted a King and God gave them what they wanted; which was for someone else to be a go-between so they didn't have to speak to God.
Rebellion is AS the sin of witchcraft. Saul sought out witches.
The day he "died" he prohibited the customary sacrifice to God for victory in Battle; and told the soldiers He would be their sacrifice! Saul and his 2 sons all died.
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Mishael> Saul was consulting with the witch at Endor, instead of consulting with God. God rejected Saul for it; Sent Samuel to tell him that.
It's a good story to read. Reading horoscopes is an abomination also. Search on the word 'witches' and it will fetch all those verses.