Thanks again for replying and sorry for such a long delay in me responding, as I mentioned I have been very busy throughout the week.
I have read through the comments.
David, I don't think I can improve on anything that Brothers Chris, Giannis, Ronald and others have shared.
I do not hold the view that you and GiGi has shared.
Here is what I would share with you in answering your question to me.
You asked.
"If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?
David, as I said in an earlier post, "the invitation went out to ALL the world" I have provided verses.
Here's my reasoning.
Romans 5:18. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
We can draw a picture out of the writing to the Hebrews concerning Israel.
We are to join him (God) in his rest.
Hebrews 4:2-11.
Here is how we Join him, vs 3- For we which have believed do enter into rest,
There is a lot more said in this verse alone concerning this topic.
1) This rest was pre-ordained from the foundation of the world. "If" they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
2) There is a condition that has to be met. "IF" they shall enter into my rest.
3) You have to believe to enter into the rest.
Verses 10-11. "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Do you notice verse 11? (Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,) lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
The only way to enter in is to believe and the only way "not to enter in" is unbelief.
Sorry for getting into your conversation with Chris, but I would like to ask you a question. Suppose you are in jail for some reason and somebody comes by and offers you to exchange positions with you. You out of the jail and him inside the jail in your position. If you don't accept that offer, are you still getting out of jail?. Another example. Suppose you owe somebody some money and you hane not got any money to pay back. A stanger comes by and offers to pay your debt. If you don't accept his offer and do not want him to pay for you your debt, are you free of your debt?
Have a good thought on that brother. It will give you the answer to your questions.
I understand your question. But the scenario you pose is not what the Bible teaches.
First of all, just looking at the law of our land, your scenario does not hold because if that person's debt to the law had been fully paid, the law could no longer condem them or punish them for the crime in question. And chosing to accept or reject the payment does not even enter into the question.
Now lets consider the Law of God, the Bible, and what does it say.
The Bible is crystal clear that the penalty for breaking the Law of God is to be under the Wrath of God and to suffer eternal Death. And God cannot and will not just set that Law aside without that penalty being fully paid. That would be a violation of God's justice.
Furthermore, if anyone could somehow pay that penalty, the sentance required by the Law, and come out on the other side, the Law could no longer condem them because they would have paid that debt to the Law in full. This does not involve any choice or acceptence on their part. It IS the LAW! And God does NOT violate His Law.
So then, how is anyone going to be saved?
The answer is that only God Himself, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ could pay that penalty for any individual. And once He has done that, that individual is GUARANTEED to become saved. Because that person now stands guiltless before the Law of God.
So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life.
Judgment and Salvation must be viewed in the context of the Law of God, which is the Bible alone and in its entirety.
This explaintion does not begin to express the full nature of mankind's condition or the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation.
You wrote "So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life."
Question. God has paid the price of ALL people's iniquity. And if faith is a product of God applying salvation to their life, then why not everyone believes?
The short answer to your question is God did not pay for the sins of everyone.
He paid only for the sins of those whom He chose to save. God calls these the Elect of God.
They are not elect because of any inherent goodness or worthiness within them as we read in Romans 3:10-18 and similar passages. They are not elect because they are more likely to respond to the Gospel than any one else. All mankind is DEAD in trespasses and sins. Eph 2:1.
God works in the Heart of those whom He is saving to CAUSE them to respond. And He gives them a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul. This is becoming Born Again. It is a true MIRACLE of God. It is all the MERCY of God as He does 100% of the work to save His Elect and they enter into His Rest.
Romans 9:15,16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So what must we do to be saved? The answer is: We can do nothing! But we can cry to God for mercy as He commands us to do. Like Publican: " Lord have mercy upon me a sinner", in the very Real Hope that God might save us.
Joel 2:12-14
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Question. In Romans 8:28-29 says, "28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". What does that "foreknow" stand for? God foreknew what?
Another question. 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who(God) will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". If God wants ALL people to be saved, why does He choose some specific people for salvation, and not all?
Third and final question. Romans 2:6-10, "6Who(God) will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" Here it says that God will save or judge people according to their deeds. But why is this since salvation is granted by faith and not works? Doesn't those seem to be in contrast to one other? What are your thoughts on those?
So according to you brother which are the conditions of a person to be selected by God. If it not faith or works or anything else. what is it that Gos sees in us in order to select us for salvation?
What I believe and understand is that mankind is a spiritual being created by God, in God's image. God not being lonely desired to create mankind for fellowship and to become like God (through Jesus Christ). That is why it is referred to in the bible as a "high calling".
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 KJV
According to the bible all of God's creations, including mankind, have a purpose. We are saved by the gift of grace, then to change to accomplish good works (or have the desire to live right and please God).
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 KJV
Even though Jesus paid mankind sin debt, mankind still has to accept Jesus and live according to God's word (commandments, statutes, laws, ordinances, etc.)
Yes brother you are right that God's purpose in creating mankind was to have somebody to share ... everything He has. Nobody likes to be alone, not even God himself. The way I have understood the whole story of God and man is:
God created us in His image and after His likeness. Usually the "in His image" is interpreted that people are similar to God in certain characteristics like love, freedom, sadness, joy, feelings, cleverness, creativity, etc. Some, like me, believe that God's external appearance is similar to ours. God has a head, hands, feet, mouth, ears, etc. Some other christians do not agree.
The "after His likeness" is usually interpreted that God made people in order to become like Him in character. So in the garden of Eden God was coming in the afternoons and was talking to Adam and Eve. In that way Adam and his wife would start knowing God and learn what God feels, what He thinks, what He considers right/wrong, fair/unfair and so in the holy state they were they would come closer to God eventually becoming like Him in character. But after their fall that procedure stopped and now people were following and becoming similar to somebody else, the satan. God offered us a way out of sin, but the whole story doesn't end here. We are given His spirit to produce a fruit, thus aquiring the characteristics of His character. This is the narrow road after His commandments.. And we know what God is like because Jesus told us and of course God's character shows in Christ who is God Himself.
But, if we will become something like little Gods, I don't really know, there are many objections to that.
And you are right again that we have to accept God's gift of salvation to be saved, it is not an automatic process for all people. You accept His offer and you are given it, you don't accept it and you are not be given it. And after we have been saved we have to walk all the way to the end to be given what we were promised, the salvation of our souls. GBU
I am unaware of any information that God gives us as to how he made the choice of whom to save.
He is Crystal clear, however, that that choice was not made on the basis of any righteousness, any goodness, any worthiness, any action that we might take.
What He sees in every one of His elect is what we read in Romans 3:10-18. A condition no different than any who remain unsaved.
It is only God's mercy that He would save anyone.
God's elective program is God's business. It is not our business.
If God has saved us, it is our business to proclaim the true gospel of salvation by Grace alone. And God will use that proclamation as he sees fit, according to his will, not ours.
And if we are trusting in or proclaiming a gospel where God does anything less than 100% of the work to save us, it is not the gospel of the Bible.
Unfortunately what you have stated puts mankind in control of salvation. And if I may paraphrase what you are saying somewhat crassly:
God has done His part and now it's up to us.
And there certainly are verses when taken in isolation that might support that view. (see my responses to Spencer and Adam)
That conclusion, however, flys in the face of many other statements God makes about the Nature of Salvation, the Nature of Mankind, and the Nature of God's Justice and Judgment.
Romans 3:10-18, Romans 9, Ezekiel 36:24-32, Eph 2:1 and many many more.
God did not write the Bible in a way that is easy to come to truth. In fact He wrote it in a way to reveal truth if we follow the principles that God lays down, but also to hide truth. 2 Timothy 3:16 and Matthew 13:10-17.
God also has a time table for revealing truth from the Bible. Romans 16:25,26 and Daniel 12:9. Christ the perfect preacher taught many things about His death and resurrection, yet His disciples did not understand until after the fact.
Most importantly we must be looking to God Himself, praying that He might open our spiritual eyes and ears as we search the Bible comparing Scripture with Scripture. This is not quick or easy business.
I believe David 0921, your paraphrasing of what I wrote is correct, though I would rewrite it more fully as, 'God has done His part and now it's up to us TO RESPOND TO HIS GIFT OF LOVE.' Here then is the problem, which of course I was attempting to draw you to, and that is, your understanding of Salvation is that God does the whole work to make it fully effective & even our response to it must be regarded as contributory to that salvation.
Yet, when I consider God's Part in it, I can only conceive of His Plan, His Provision of the Sacrifice, His Acceptance of that Work if fully completed, & His Receiving of those who have embraced it & been changed by His Spirit. I sense that the Plan you adhere to, stops at His completed Work, & anything subsequent to that completion is treated as 'adding to His Work - adding to our salvation'. If a repentant sinner, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, responds to the Gospel, calling out to a Merciful God for forgiveness, I cannot believe that this sinner has added to the Gospel (even, to God's Plan) in any way at all. The Plan was conceived & fully completed - nothing could be added to it, though some have tried & still try. But to say that when we cry out for mercy & forgiveness is adding to that Plan, this becomes too unbelievable for me.
Therefore, in all of this, I cannot leave out both the convicting Work of God's Spirit ( John 16:7-11) coupled with Romans 10:8-10, "the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation": after hearing the Word, being convicted, confession & believing in what God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone.
Note the emphasis in these verses on "believing in the HEART""
Jeremiah 17:9,10
The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the HEART, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
And then there is Romans 3:10-18
There in lies the problem.
We cannot and will not "Believe in the heart" until God gives us a NEW HEART, that is a New Resurrected Soul.
Ezekiel 36:26
A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
We must be Born Again as God applies His Salvation to those whom He saves BEFORE we can believe with our whole heart.
That is Salvation. And our Belief, our Faith is the RESULT of God applying salvation to one of His elect. And is not because we have "accepted" an offer of salvation.
I agree David0921, that our hearts are naturally filthy & wicked, & on their own there is no desire to search for or long for cleansing or to be right with God.
You state, that God then has to give sinners (i.e. God's pre-selected sinner) "a NEW HEART"; I assume this is God's first act towards saving a soul. So, only with this New Heart (i.e. now Born Again), "God applies His Salvation" to His selected ones, after which application "we can believe with our whole heart". I hope I have your order correct.
A few questions then arise:
a. how does an unforgiven sinner get a New Heart while still in his filthy state? If a New Heart represents being born again, why does God need to apply His Salvation after the new heart is given?
b. in your other comments (past & present), the matter of repentance and calling upon God to save, hasn't come up (at least I can't remember). Where then do these fit in your belief, as declared in your posts?
c. what would the Work of the Holy Spirit be in each or any of those points you raised (i.e. between the unregenerate state of man right up to expression of Belief and Faith of the born again)?
To add to my earlier comment and your statements regarding repentance and brokenness before God. I want to make it clear that there is no salvation without repentance from sin and a broken and contrite heart before God.
But this again is the work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. It is not due to any inherent character within us.
I think that some of this may be seen as God is drawing us. But it will certainly be in evidence once God applies His Salvation to our life, in performing the MIRACLE of the New Birth, in giving the one whom He is saving a New Resurrected Soul, ie making them Born Again.
I do believe that God may DRAW those whom He saves in very individual and varied ways. This might be very quickly or very prolonged.
This is all very mysterious and we need to be very careful not to put our spin on God's process. But one thing is certain. All of this is God's work not our work in any sense as God works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
All of the glory for every aspect of our salvation belongs to God Alone. And we can take no credit whatsoever for any part of our salvation. Lest we become like the man of Numbers 15.
We should stand amazed that God would have saved us. And asking WHY ME? I deserve only Thy wrath and condemnation.
Thank you David0921 for your response. I would align myself with most of what you've written concerning biblical inspiration, that the Word of God is indeed wholly authored by God. Yet, when I read 2 Timothy 3:16, that "ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God", I would be in conflict with some who hold fervently that what we read now (from the ancient recordings, also the KJB) are the actual Words that God (by His Spirit) spoke to godly men to write. "Inspiration" to me, doesn't mean that God dictated the Words to record, nor does it mean that the fingers of the writers were gripped by Him to pen those holy Words. Rather, as men recorded down what they saw or learned, God's Spirit was present to help them record accurately and remember correctly. That said, since you brought it up, I'll move on.
"What do I believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?" When we have Scriptures such as John 3:3-8, 1 Peter 1:22-23, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 5:1, & others in John's epistle, we can believe that this re-birth is wholly of God & not of man's doing or involvement; that re-birth is a spiritual birth, whereby God gives us a new spirit (His Spirit) Who always inclines us towards God & His Son; that God's Ministry to us can only be to our revived spirit in us and not to the flesh that has no desire after godly things. Therefore, we are to continue to crucify our flesh which lusts against the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:17) in us & distracts us from serving God acceptably & in fear. Therefore, by the Holy Spirit in us, we have become new creatures in Christ Jesus, reckoning ourselves to be dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ. This re-birth must be the final Work of God in the sometimes lengthy course in a person's struggle dealing with conviction of sin, brokenness, humility, & cry for a Savior to save & redeem him. (continued on Page 2).
If the sinner has been true about himself & his need before God, the assurance of that great Work of Salvation is now completed in him & he steps out in great joy & great desire to follow the path of holiness. This I understand is 'Born Again', its work in the sinner & the change of life that ensues.
To the other part of your comment. You stated, "I want to make it clear that there is no salvation without repentance from sin and a broken and contrite heart before God. But this again is the work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. It is not due to any inherent character within us."
Given what you've stated here & what we've discussed earlier, you state that this (repentance & brokenness) is the Work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. But back to our problem: if this is the Work of God (to bring about repentance & brokenness), surely this is the unsaved sinner's response before God - that which you have written can never happen, since such a response would be adding to God's Work. As I remember, you've stated previously that it is only God Who saves: "We must be Born Again as God applies His Salvation to those whom He saves BEFORE we can believe with our whole heart. That is Salvation. And our Belief, our Faith is the RESULT of God applying salvation to one of His elect. And is not because we have "accepted" an offer of salvation". (continued on Page 3).
So the problem is: if God saves BEFORE we can believe - and Belief/Faith can only happen at the moment of salvation, what then is the penitent sinner believing & calling out to God in faith, if it is not Believing & Faith itself. Rather, it may be better stated, 'that the Holy Spirit at the proper time gives the needed Grace & Faith to believe ( Ephesians 2:8), yet the sinner coming to the Lord still needs Faith to believe by the Grace of God - and I believe that this Faith in no way contributes to God's Work of Salvation. As well, if a sinner is born again, he already has expressed belief/faith, therefore it cannot happen at or after salvation is given.
Acts 16:30,31, describes this matter well. The Philippian jailer, after seeing what took place in his prison, cried out to Paul & Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The jailer was still unregenerate at this point, when Paul & Silas said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house". The jailer, as all sinners, have to believe on Jesus & His finished Work for them - and this belief is when they are still in sin & not at or after salvation.
Hello Chris, I've been following this conversation over the past week.
I happen to agree with David in that one who is dead in sin must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel. It seems that yoo may think that being born again always happen at the same time as one being saved (within a short time frame)
I guess I think that it is God who regenerates any and all who are elected to salvation, and that conversion is not always a matter of a short time frame. From God's perspective, He can regenerate anyone and bring them to repentance and faith in a short period of time or over a more lengthy time frame. Yet from the standpoint of the person elected, they may not truly know when they exactly they were regenerated, but may know when they first believed the gospel and realized that they are saved.
I do believe only a regenerated person can cry out to God to save them because an unregenerated man will never desire to turn to God and seek salvation from God. But the God who regenerates is the One who brings one to repentance, a desire to petition God for salvation, and faith to believe the gospel (at which time the person realizes that they HAVE been saved by Jesus).
I hope I am not being confusing here or not presenting my ideas clearly. Even so, I hope that my thoughts may cause some to think deeply on this matter rather than in a superficial way (not that I think you are that way).
He who began the good work in you is faithful to complete it. (I can't recall the verse that says this at the moment, but it is clear that all that we are commanded to do to be saved is accomplished by the grace and action of God in the total process of our salvation) Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. God does all that is needed for us to be saved. After we realize that we are born again and saved, we can look back and say that it is all of God, not by my effort, choice, or desire, but His election and sovereign power to make alive that which is dead to Him.
Let us see some cases in the Book of Acts concerning people who believed in Jesus. Say Paul. Was he regenerated when he saw Jesus on his way to Damascus? On the contrary he was on a mission to jail the christians there. So what happened to him and believed in Jesus? Answer. Jesus' appearance to him. Second case, Cornelius and his friends. Were they regenerated when Peter came and preached to them? What made them believe? Because of the appearance of the angel Cornelius saw when fasting. Next case That Roman in Cyprus. Was he regenerated? Until a time he couldn't make up his mind who was right, Paul or that sorcerer. What opened his (spiritual) eyes and believed? The loss of sight of that sorcerer after Paul's command. So we see that many times God acts in specific ways to assist people to believe in Him. Recalling how God helped me to believe in Jesus, well, I had a client who was a new born christian. Sometime he started talking to me about Jesus and salvation. I had my beliefs at that time like all people in the world. Maybe God exists maybe no, maybe there is afterlife, maybe not. And I was resisting to him a lot. But what made me keep discussing with him about Jesus was a very joyful feeling I was always having as we were talking about these things. I was feeling joy all the time. And I kept going back and talk until God found an opening in my hert and did all the good work. If not, probably I would be bored after the second time and ended such conversations. So you see joy was the specific action of God to me.
So instead of saying "regeneration" maybe we can say "a specific action of God to those He knows that will believe" to help them believe? Think about it.
Finally in Jeremiah 23:29 says, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" God's word is like a hammer that breaks a rock. What is a rock? it is a stonny heart, an unregenerated heart, isn't it?
Thanks GiGi; and I hope you had a good time away, away from those noisy workers, at least.
I think what we are grappling with here, is the word, 'regeneration'. I understand you believe that 'regeneration' can happen at any time to the one who is 'elected to salvation' to enable him to come to salvation. Whereas, the word 'regenerate' to me means 're-birth', and not simply an awakening or displaying some propensity towards spiritual things. I'm sorry if I've not properly grasped your meaning, but that's what I gather.
The best verse I can think of for this matter is Titus 3:3-5:
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly".
Paul of course, speaks of our former spiritual condition, then on God's Love & Kindness shown to sinful man (via the Gospel), and finally, that man could never save himself or make himself right before God, but could ONLY BE SAVED because of God's Mercy toward him. And how was his salvation effected? By 'regeneration' and by 'renewal', through the Holy Ghost.
If this sinner was first regenerated, so he could repent, respond, or approach God for salvation, then why would he need to do these things, for he was already regenerated & renewed by the Holy Ghost? And this question I had just posed to David0921. So, regeneration to me equates to re-birth, for I can't perceive that a regenerative Work of God is any less than that. If anything, as stated in another post of mine, I see the 'convicting, drawing, compelling' Work of the Holy Spirit urging the unregenerated soul - but this I wouldn't consider as a regenerative work. Thanks for your input here.
His wisdom and counsel is beyond our ability to know and understand; and that we are to submit ourselves to His sovereignty in all these things and trust in Him as truly good, loving, gracious, and merciful. His reasons for choosing as He has are mysterious to us, but in perfect harmony with His nature. And these choices are really His business to act on and not ours to criticize.
I often think that if one must chose to believe the gospel, then what happens to those who have not heard, are too young to understand, or too impaired to discern it, too deaf to hear it, etc. Are all of these damned? I am not aware of any bible verse that speaks of an "age of accountability" for infants and children, nor that they get a pass because they cannot make an informed choice to believe. I do know that Jesus said that we are not to prevent children (including infants) to come unto Him because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, there must be a way for God's saving grace to reach these humans with regeneration and faith even though their understanding is not yet mature enough to fully understand their need to be saved from sin and the content of the gospel. Jesus also said that only those born of water and the Spirit can come into the kingdom. So how does God apply this to infants and children should they die before this "age of accountability" if they are in a state of depravity, dead in sin, separated from God, and unregenerated?
These are very profound things to consider. I know I do not have all of the answers from a biblical perspective. But I do have my viewpoint based on what I do find in Scripture. And in so many ways, a viewpoint is really what any of us have as we search the Scriptures for answers and a mindset that is like that of God in Christ.
I will leave this post for now having brought up some matters that pertain to God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself.
Thank you GiGi for your thought-provoking comments here, as also on the Character Traits of God, now His Sovereignty & being Superlative. So, to continue here.
Going through your list of mankind's condition before God & God's Work towards man's renewal, I will list those, & other points, with verse(s), & in the order that I understand them.
a. Man's total depravity ( Romans 3:9,10,23).
b. God's Love & Mercy for all sinners ( John 3:16: 'loved the World' of sinners, not only the Elect; 2 Peter 3:9: 'God suffers long, not willing that any (all sinners) should perish'.
c. God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification ( Romans 8:29,30: Paul shares this order pertaining to believers, where the logic is, if God foreknew those who would be His, it is understood that He also knew those who would reject Him). And through His Knowledge, God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy & blameless people ( Ephesians 1:4).
To what have we been predestined to? To be conformed to His Son's Image (v29), according to God's Purpose ( Ephesians 1:11), & to be adopted into His Family ( Ephesians 1:5).
Calling. Various types of Calling given in the Bible, but pertaining to salvation: 1 Peter 2:9, 'having called us out of darkness (our sinful state without God) into His marvellous light (our forgiven state with God & His Son). Do we then just transition from darkness to light without a work of God the Spirit in us? And it is to this point that our discussions have focussed. Paul in Romans 8 is speaking to believers, so the matter of repentance wasn't mentioned, but may have been implied here.
However, Paul in Acts 17 spoke to the idolatrous Athenians, 'that God calls on all men everywhere to repent'. And here we read that unregenerate men were called to repentance. Continued on Page 2.
So, we have the mystery here: did those at Mars Hill who believed Paul, repent while still unsaved, or were they under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or were they regenerated first so they could repent & believe? From the order you gave, I note that you've written 'Regeneration before Belief, Repentance, Conversion, & Redemption'. Whereas, my order would be, Repentance, Belief, Redemption/Regeneration/Conversion. And as stated elsewhere, my understanding of Regeneration is synonymous with Re-birth. So if one is regenerated before believing & repentance, then why the need for believing & repentance, for he has already been given re-birth & converted?
As far as the creation, the holiness, & the rebellion of some angels are considered, like many things in the Word, it's simply not possible to form hard & fast views & beliefs. But in regard to humanity, as you stated, "Some (humans) to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world", places our understanding at a different level pertaining to angels. If what you believe is truth, then it would be wrong for God to relegate most of humanity, not chosen by Him, to an eternal hell. Why? Because those unfortunate people will have to suffer because God ordained them to suffer. How then does such a belief stand against the Scriptures that say that He is not willing that any should perish? Because He has willed that many will perish. To me this would be incredibly baffling, making God to be an ogre, indiscriminately saving some, causing others of His creation to perish. This I can't accept or reconcile in any other way, than stated elsewhere: that the Gospel comes to all, for all are sinners - what we do as sinners in response, in concert with the Holy Spirit working in the life so touched, fits all the Scriptures much better and makes the preaching of the Gospel all the more necessary & timely (at least the apostles regarded it so).
And to also consider the other mystery, of which you addressed: what about the infants, the mentally/physically infirmed, or those who've never heard of Jesus - what is their state before God? Though not clearly revealed to us, except for possible snapshots, we can only entrust these souls to a Merciful God, Who makes no mistakes to the right outcome for all & we do our part to give them every opportunity to hear & respond, if they can. And this has spurred many to go to far-off unreached people groups, hazarding their lives (some having lost theirs), so that others might have an opportunity to hear of God's Love & Forgiveness, & of renewed changed lives.
So, I've tried to address at least most of your points here GiGi; but in relation to your subject, "God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself", I agree that God is Sovereign in every situation & His Will will be performed, but could we also say that His Sovereign Will can only be declared/seen when all His Attributes (some of which are His Mercy, Love, Foreknowledge, Longsuffering, the Gift of Himself in Jesus) must combine together to form that Sovereign Will? Or, is His Will separate from His other Attributes? Something to consider, I think. Blessings & thank you for provoking our thoughts.
Pelagius taught that man's reason was not corrupted by the fall and that Adam's sin was not imputed nor inherited by subsequent offspring. So He did not think that man needed to cooperate with God to be saved nor did He believe that a person could be saved by God's sovereign choice without the assent of the human.
Augustine refuted Pelagius and taught that man was morally depraved from conception because of Adam's sin and needed God's grace to be saved. He taught that regeneration was a sole work of God and man did not cooperate with God to be saved.
So Pelagius taught a monergism that was solely a work of man and Augustine taught a monergism that was solely the work of God.
Pelagius' view was condemned as heretical by the church and Augustine's view prevailed in the church until the Reformation.
Luther, Calvin, Knox all taught an Augustinian monergism. Along comes Arminius teaching semi-Pelagianism that man must cooperate with God and His grace to be saved. He denied that regeneration was a monergistic work of God and that it was God and man working together to bring about salvation. This view is called synergistic because it involves the work or cooperation of more than one person.
Since that time monergism and synergism has been strongly debated among believers, especially theologians for centuries, as it is today. And among regular folk like us, we are blessed to have the Bible in our language to read and study. So each of us must do that and form our beliefs from what we learn. I used to believe decisional regeneration but from my reading of Scripture I have come to believe in monergistic regeneration prior to one's repentance and belief. That does not make my view correct or not. But it just shows that people can be brought to change their views as they study the Scriptures.
This thread is getting very long so I will exit this thread and consider how I will start a new one on one of the topics I listed in my reply to you. Thanks again.
Thanks GiGi & yes this thread is long & cumbersome - pity to those trying to read it on their phones. What you shared about your early childhood is not dissimilar to mine; for I was brought up in a very godly, Christ-honoring home, taken to Church, attended children's S/School, had devotions/prayer-time at home, & lived according to biblical & parental rules. Only in my late teens, did I go 'off the rails' as my work took me far from home & under the influence of ungodly peers. In other words, what faith & love I had for the Lord earlier had altogether disappeared, preferring my new lifestyle of sin & having no conviction of it.
But in respect of my very early years, my recollection, though limited, was that I was always encouraged to 'accept Jesus into my heart'. This I willingly did, knowing that this was based on my understanding of sin, Jesus' Love & Sacrifice for me, & to receive the Gift of Salvation. Now my emphasis here is on the "Gift". After running amok for about eight years, the Holy Spirit took hold of me in a manner I had never experienced, even in those early years. I was deeply convicted of my sinful life & estrangement from the Lord, & in brokenness & tears confessed my sins. And at that very moment, a very strong sense of being forgiven, acceptance, & an inward renewal (regeneration) had taken place. But what of those early years, similar to yours?
Since being given re-birth & deeply studying the Word, I considered what my state was during those earlier years. I believe that every new-born has a sin nature; you asked, "Why would God have this be?" In my simple way, if Adam was created without a sin nature & then that nature became corrupted because of his sin, then all who have a blood connection to him must also have that fallen nature transferred to them regardless of age or innocence (maybe Romans 5:12 applies here). To Page 2.
It appears to be a natural law of transference of human nature, to which God doesn't eradicate when making 'a new creation in Christ', rather giving us His Spirit so we can live this New Life & have the wherewithal to deal with the enemy of our souls. Our sinful human nature still requires this sin-affected body to age & die, but the promise is that our spirits shall live, for they are no longer dead gripped in sin, but new and alive unto God.
Therefore, when I see a new-born babe, I see the little one not as you do (i.e. "God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when they cannot yet believe" and "that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability)". Rather, I see a babe, whatever the religion or heart condition of the parents, as one born in innocence yet with a sinful human nature. What keeps such a one from being rejected by God if there is an early death, is that that sin nature has not been fed yet with sin (a wilful act of sin bringing a response in the heart). So in my mind, 'regeneration' doesn't come up here, as there is no need for re-birth, and no question whether the babe is a part of the elect or not - that if the sin nature has not been fed, all are innocent & will be saved.
Re: "decisional regeneration". I've stated before, even to David0921, that I don't believe that to accept/receive Christ adds to God's redeeming/regenerating Work, nor is that act necessary for God to complete His Work. I believe that since salvation through Christ is God's Gift (in very truth, undeserved) to all, those being drawn & convicted by the Spirit, will respond under such conviction. As mentioned previously, if one is regenerated first so they can respond, it seems to defeat the need to respond, as they have already been regenerated. Onto Page 3.
Just as a child receiving a gift responds by reaching out to take (or, grab) it, with a smile or a thank you following, the sinner under deep conviction of his sinful state, of deserved punishment, will certainly reach out & give thanks for such a gift from God Who alone can save him. The Work of God has already been completed when Jesus made the payment for sin, nothing more can ever be added to it, not even a sinner's acceptance & appreciation.
I realize that I, and those who have been saved from other religions or a sinful lifestyle, can have a salvation experience that is different to say, as yours, where you were brought up in a Christian home & lived a godly life, increasing in faith & knowledge. I feel that even though the Spirit's Work in each case is the same, it might be very different in the severity of conviction & understanding. For you, you have been faithful to the Lord & His Word from your early years, so regeneration has been early, especially when you came to the age of understanding what sin is & the Gospel that saves - and you embraced that & continued in joy, hope & confidence of your position in Christ. For most others, coming out of a life of sin & false religions, I'm confident that what was a subtle Work of the Holy Spirit in you to save you will be a heart-wrenching, mighty shake-up & revelation from God in others. In either case, regeneration must take place: for me the date is set in stone (Oct 23, 1979), for you, a quieter unnoticeable transition under the Spirit's Ministry in your life. I'll leave it here for now & thanks again.
So, I cannot definitely say when I was saved or regenerated or first believed. I just grew up knowing that I was saved by Jesus and His death and resurrection. I have lived all of my life as a believer and so I have lived a life far different than someone who was a pagan, atheist, or uninformed until they came to Christ as an adult. I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God. I am sure many people have a similar testimony about God's sovereign grace bestowed on them before they can even remember.
In the Scriptures, especially in the book of Acts and in the Epistles we have accounts of adults who were unregenerated coming to faith, not about children born to faith filled, regenerated parents. Yet ever since that first generation of converts to the Christian faith there have been millions of children brought up by believing parents and were exposed from infancy the truth of the Gospel and the salvation that God gives to them by grace alone.
But nevertheless, in today's western nations, people have grown up for many decades having been taken to church and taught how God wants us to act by parents who may not even be believers, but it was expected of parents to take their children to church, etc.
Also, the idea of decisional regeneration is fairly new in Christian history. (which does not make it right or wrong doctrine just because it is new).
In the 500's Pelagius promoted that any human can come to God all on His own without grace from God. He taught that man's will was not in bondage to sin and that people are born morally neutral. See more
I have read your replies and thank you for taking time to consider the topics and give thoughtful responses. I know that I threw out a lot of things to consider.
I wanted to address the issue of infants and others who are not able to intellectually understand their need for salvation or the gospel.
I believe that each and every human is conceived with a sinful nature. I can't even imagine why God would have this be, but the Bible is clear that this is true. And the Bible says that no one seeks God or is able to eradicate this nature from within themselves on their own. So, the people I am speaking about are dead in sin, separated from God. So, I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
they cannot yet believe as we do who are older. Should they die in infancy or childhood, I believe that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability.
But does this mean that every infant is regenerated? I don't think so, but certainly those who would die young.
Let me explain from my life experience because I think that my experience is very common for people who were born into a family of faith and exposed to the gospel from very young age. I am not saying this happens to all children of believing parents, but to many over the centuries.
I cannot remember a time when I did not believe in Jesus. I can remember that I did as far back as my preschool years, say about 3. I cannot remember before that. AS I grew up, my understanding of God, Jesus' saving work for me, and the need to believe the Gospel also grew and matured. As I entered my teen years, living my life for Jesus was very important to me and I have done so for the remainder of my life. So, when did I first believe? Certainly not when I was a teen or even a school-age child.
May I point something out in your posts that seems a bit confusing.
In part 1 you stated "I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
THEY CANNOT YET BELIEVE AS WE DO WHO ARE OLDER.
However, here's what you say about yourself.
In part 2 you stated,
"I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God.
Gigi, do you not see something wrong with these statements?
I do not see any problem with what I posted. If God chose to have me be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for me.
As for the others, infants and very young children can be given faith and believe but it is not in the same manner as adults.
For illustration, David said that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacogntive way. They are intellectually aware that they are trusting someone and now who they are trusting.
For another example, our new grandchild is believing that she will get feed and nurtured by her mom, but this is different than adults who can detect God's providence (or anyone else's) and connect that with His love and compassion.
I was also referring to babies and children who die young. I believe that God does save them. He regenerates them and causes them to believe within the soul, but perhaps not in the intellect. But it is all a work of God, not of the volition of the infant or child.
I also believe that God works the same way with unregenerate adults. He predestines them to election, regenerates them at the time He chooses, calls them, gives them faith to believe and repentance as he draws them to call upon Jesus for salvation.
I think that those who hold to a synergistic view of regeneration and faith give the unregenerate person's "free" will to much credit as it is just as corrupted as all the rest of him as a result of the sinful nature. I believe that an unregenerate person is unable to choose anything positive having to do with God and salvation. They, instead would be indifferent or hostile, or at enmity with God. They are unwilling to find out the truth about Him and rebel in their hearts at the thought of believing the Gospel and coming to Jesus for salvation. This will of unregenerate man is enslaved to the sinful nature and ruled by the prince of the power of the air Eph. 2:2.
Thanks again for replying and sorry for such a long delay in me responding, as I mentioned I have been very busy throughout the week.
I have read through the comments.
David, I don't think I can improve on anything that Brothers Chris, Giannis, Ronald and others have shared.
I do not hold the view that you and GiGi has shared.
Here is what I would share with you in answering your question to me.
You asked.
"If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?
David, as I said in an earlier post, "the invitation went out to ALL the world" I have provided verses.
Here's my reasoning.
Romans 5:18. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
We can draw a picture out of the writing to the Hebrews concerning Israel.
We are to join him (God) in his rest.
Hebrews 4:2-11.
Here is how we Join him, vs 3- For we which have believed do enter into rest,
There is a lot more said in this verse alone concerning this topic.
1) This rest was pre-ordained from the foundation of the world. "If" they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
2) There is a condition that has to be met. "IF" they shall enter into my rest.
3) You have to believe to enter into the rest.
Verses 10-11. "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Do you notice verse 11? (Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,) lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
The only way to enter in is to believe and the only way "not to enter in" is unbelief.
Running out of space, See part 2.
Thanks for responding.
I'm in the middle of a busy work week,
I have a lot of catching up to do on this current discussion.
I will continue when time permits.
God bless.
Sorry for getting into your conversation with Chris, but I would like to ask you a question. Suppose you are in jail for some reason and somebody comes by and offers you to exchange positions with you. You out of the jail and him inside the jail in your position. If you don't accept that offer, are you still getting out of jail?. Another example. Suppose you owe somebody some money and you hane not got any money to pay back. A stanger comes by and offers to pay your debt. If you don't accept his offer and do not want him to pay for you your debt, are you free of your debt?
Have a good thought on that brother. It will give you the answer to your questions.
Hello Giannis,
I understand your question. But the scenario you pose is not what the Bible teaches.
First of all, just looking at the law of our land, your scenario does not hold because if that person's debt to the law had been fully paid, the law could no longer condem them or punish them for the crime in question. And chosing to accept or reject the payment does not even enter into the question.
Now lets consider the Law of God, the Bible, and what does it say.
The Bible is crystal clear that the penalty for breaking the Law of God is to be under the Wrath of God and to suffer eternal Death. And God cannot and will not just set that Law aside without that penalty being fully paid. That would be a violation of God's justice.
Furthermore, if anyone could somehow pay that penalty, the sentance required by the Law, and come out on the other side, the Law could no longer condem them because they would have paid that debt to the Law in full. This does not involve any choice or acceptence on their part. It IS the LAW! And God does NOT violate His Law.
So then, how is anyone going to be saved?
The answer is that only God Himself, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ could pay that penalty for any individual. And once He has done that, that individual is GUARANTEED to become saved. Because that person now stands guiltless before the Law of God.
So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life.
Judgment and Salvation must be viewed in the context of the Law of God, which is the Bible alone and in its entirety.
This explaintion does not begin to express the full nature of mankind's condition or the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation.
[Comment Removed]
You wrote "So then, salvation has nothing to do with "making a choice" or "accepting" the payment for sin that God has made for us. God has obligated Himself to "save" that person because the Law has been fully satisfied. And their "belief", their "faith" their becoming a"new creation in Christ" is a PRODUCT of God applying salvation to their life."
Question. God has paid the price of ALL people's iniquity. And if faith is a product of God applying salvation to their life, then why not everyone believes?
The short answer to your question is God did not pay for the sins of everyone.
He paid only for the sins of those whom He chose to save. God calls these the Elect of God.
They are not elect because of any inherent goodness or worthiness within them as we read in Romans 3:10-18 and similar passages. They are not elect because they are more likely to respond to the Gospel than any one else. All mankind is DEAD in trespasses and sins. Eph 2:1.
God works in the Heart of those whom He is saving to CAUSE them to respond. And He gives them a New Heart, a New Resurrected Soul. This is becoming Born Again. It is a true MIRACLE of God. It is all the MERCY of God as He does 100% of the work to save His Elect and they enter into His Rest.
Romans 9:15,16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
So what must we do to be saved? The answer is: We can do nothing! But we can cry to God for mercy as He commands us to do. Like Publican: " Lord have mercy upon me a sinner", in the very Real Hope that God might save us.
Joel 2:12-14
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Question. In Romans 8:28-29 says, "28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.". What does that "foreknow" stand for? God foreknew what?
Another question. 1 Timothy 2:4, "Who(God) will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.". If God wants ALL people to be saved, why does He choose some specific people for salvation, and not all?
Third and final question. Romans 2:6-10, "6Who(God) will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" Here it says that God will save or judge people according to their deeds. But why is this since salvation is granted by faith and not works? Doesn't those seem to be in contrast to one other? What are your thoughts on those?
So according to you brother which are the conditions of a person to be selected by God. If it not faith or works or anything else. what is it that Gos sees in us in order to select us for salvation?
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2 KJV
According to the bible all of God's creations, including mankind, have a purpose. We are saved by the gift of grace, then to change to accomplish good works (or have the desire to live right and please God).
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12 KJV
Even though Jesus paid mankind sin debt, mankind still has to accept Jesus and live according to God's word (commandments, statutes, laws, ordinances, etc.)
Yes brother you are right that God's purpose in creating mankind was to have somebody to share ... everything He has. Nobody likes to be alone, not even God himself. The way I have understood the whole story of God and man is:
God created us in His image and after His likeness. Usually the "in His image" is interpreted that people are similar to God in certain characteristics like love, freedom, sadness, joy, feelings, cleverness, creativity, etc. Some, like me, believe that God's external appearance is similar to ours. God has a head, hands, feet, mouth, ears, etc. Some other christians do not agree.
The "after His likeness" is usually interpreted that God made people in order to become like Him in character. So in the garden of Eden God was coming in the afternoons and was talking to Adam and Eve. In that way Adam and his wife would start knowing God and learn what God feels, what He thinks, what He considers right/wrong, fair/unfair and so in the holy state they were they would come closer to God eventually becoming like Him in character. But after their fall that procedure stopped and now people were following and becoming similar to somebody else, the satan. God offered us a way out of sin, but the whole story doesn't end here. We are given His spirit to produce a fruit, thus aquiring the characteristics of His character. This is the narrow road after His commandments.. And we know what God is like because Jesus told us and of course God's character shows in Christ who is God Himself.
But, if we will become something like little Gods, I don't really know, there are many objections to that.
And you are right again that we have to accept God's gift of salvation to be saved, it is not an automatic process for all people. You accept His offer and you are given it, you don't accept it and you are not be given it. And after we have been saved we have to walk all the way to the end to be given what we were promised, the salvation of our souls. GBU
[Comment Removed]
I am unaware of any information that God gives us as to how he made the choice of whom to save.
He is Crystal clear, however, that that choice was not made on the basis of any righteousness, any goodness, any worthiness, any action that we might take.
What He sees in every one of His elect is what we read in Romans 3:10-18. A condition no different than any who remain unsaved.
It is only God's mercy that He would save anyone.
God's elective program is God's business. It is not our business.
If God has saved us, it is our business to proclaim the true gospel of salvation by Grace alone. And God will use that proclamation as he sees fit, according to his will, not ours.
And if we are trusting in or proclaiming a gospel where God does anything less than 100% of the work to save us, it is not the gospel of the Bible.
Unfortunately what you have stated puts mankind in control of salvation. And if I may paraphrase what you are saying somewhat crassly:
God has done His part and now it's up to us.
And there certainly are verses when taken in isolation that might support that view. (see my responses to Spencer and Adam)
That conclusion, however, flys in the face of many other statements God makes about the Nature of Salvation, the Nature of Mankind, and the Nature of God's Justice and Judgment.
Romans 3:10-18, Romans 9, Ezekiel 36:24-32, Eph 2:1 and many many more.
God did not write the Bible in a way that is easy to come to truth. In fact He wrote it in a way to reveal truth if we follow the principles that God lays down, but also to hide truth. 2 Timothy 3:16 and Matthew 13:10-17.
God also has a time table for revealing truth from the Bible. Romans 16:25,26 and Daniel 12:9. Christ the perfect preacher taught many things about His death and resurrection, yet His disciples did not understand until after the fact.
Most importantly we must be looking to God Himself, praying that He might open our spiritual eyes and ears as we search the Bible comparing Scripture with Scripture. This is not quick or easy business.
Yet, when I consider God's Part in it, I can only conceive of His Plan, His Provision of the Sacrifice, His Acceptance of that Work if fully completed, & His Receiving of those who have embraced it & been changed by His Spirit. I sense that the Plan you adhere to, stops at His completed Work, & anything subsequent to that completion is treated as 'adding to His Work - adding to our salvation'. If a repentant sinner, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, responds to the Gospel, calling out to a Merciful God for forgiveness, I cannot believe that this sinner has added to the Gospel (even, to God's Plan) in any way at all. The Plan was conceived & fully completed - nothing could be added to it, though some have tried & still try. But to say that when we cry out for mercy & forgiveness is adding to that Plan, this becomes too unbelievable for me.
Therefore, in all of this, I cannot leave out both the convicting Work of God's Spirit ( John 16:7-11) coupled with Romans 10:8-10, "the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation": after hearing the Word, being convicted, confession & believing in what God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone.
"God has provided, salvation is given; and this is just the sinner's response to a Work that has already been done by God alone"
We are to join him (God) in his rest.
Hebrews 4:2-11.
God bless.
You quoted Romans 10-8-10.
Note the emphasis in these verses on "believing in the HEART""
Jeremiah 17:9,10
The HEART is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the HEART, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
And then there is Romans 3:10-18
There in lies the problem.
We cannot and will not "Believe in the heart" until God gives us a NEW HEART, that is a New Resurrected Soul.
Ezekiel 36:26
A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
We must be Born Again as God applies His Salvation to those whom He saves BEFORE we can believe with our whole heart.
That is Salvation. And our Belief, our Faith is the RESULT of God applying salvation to one of His elect. And is not because we have "accepted" an offer of salvation.
You state, that God then has to give sinners (i.e. God's pre-selected sinner) "a NEW HEART"; I assume this is God's first act towards saving a soul. So, only with this New Heart (i.e. now Born Again), "God applies His Salvation" to His selected ones, after which application "we can believe with our whole heart". I hope I have your order correct.
A few questions then arise:
a. how does an unforgiven sinner get a New Heart while still in his filthy state? If a New Heart represents being born again, why does God need to apply His Salvation after the new heart is given?
b. in your other comments (past & present), the matter of repentance and calling upon God to save, hasn't come up (at least I can't remember). Where then do these fit in your belief, as declared in your posts?
c. what would the Work of the Holy Spirit be in each or any of those points you raised (i.e. between the unregenerate state of man right up to expression of Belief and Faith of the born again)?
To add to my earlier comment and your statements regarding repentance and brokenness before God. I want to make it clear that there is no salvation without repentance from sin and a broken and contrite heart before God.
But this again is the work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. It is not due to any inherent character within us.
I think that some of this may be seen as God is drawing us. But it will certainly be in evidence once God applies His Salvation to our life, in performing the MIRACLE of the New Birth, in giving the one whom He is saving a New Resurrected Soul, ie making them Born Again.
I do believe that God may DRAW those whom He saves in very individual and varied ways. This might be very quickly or very prolonged.
This is all very mysterious and we need to be very careful not to put our spin on God's process. But one thing is certain. All of this is God's work not our work in any sense as God works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
All of the glory for every aspect of our salvation belongs to God Alone. And we can take no credit whatsoever for any part of our salvation. Lest we become like the man of Numbers 15.
We should stand amazed that God would have saved us. And asking WHY ME? I deserve only Thy wrath and condemnation.
Praise God for so great Salvation!
Thank you David0921 for your response. I would align myself with most of what you've written concerning biblical inspiration, that the Word of God is indeed wholly authored by God. Yet, when I read 2 Timothy 3:16, that "ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God", I would be in conflict with some who hold fervently that what we read now (from the ancient recordings, also the KJB) are the actual Words that God (by His Spirit) spoke to godly men to write. "Inspiration" to me, doesn't mean that God dictated the Words to record, nor does it mean that the fingers of the writers were gripped by Him to pen those holy Words. Rather, as men recorded down what they saw or learned, God's Spirit was present to help them record accurately and remember correctly. That said, since you brought it up, I'll move on.
"What do I believe the Bible says about the term BORN AGAIN?" When we have Scriptures such as John 3:3-8, 1 Peter 1:22-23, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 5:1, & others in John's epistle, we can believe that this re-birth is wholly of God & not of man's doing or involvement; that re-birth is a spiritual birth, whereby God gives us a new spirit (His Spirit) Who always inclines us towards God & His Son; that God's Ministry to us can only be to our revived spirit in us and not to the flesh that has no desire after godly things. Therefore, we are to continue to crucify our flesh which lusts against the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:17) in us & distracts us from serving God acceptably & in fear. Therefore, by the Holy Spirit in us, we have become new creatures in Christ Jesus, reckoning ourselves to be dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ. This re-birth must be the final Work of God in the sometimes lengthy course in a person's struggle dealing with conviction of sin, brokenness, humility, & cry for a Savior to save & redeem him. (continued on Page 2).
If the sinner has been true about himself & his need before God, the assurance of that great Work of Salvation is now completed in him & he steps out in great joy & great desire to follow the path of holiness. This I understand is 'Born Again', its work in the sinner & the change of life that ensues.
To the other part of your comment. You stated, "I want to make it clear that there is no salvation without repentance from sin and a broken and contrite heart before God. But this again is the work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. It is not due to any inherent character within us."
Given what you've stated here & what we've discussed earlier, you state that this (repentance & brokenness) is the Work of God within us as He is drawing and saving us. But back to our problem: if this is the Work of God (to bring about repentance & brokenness), surely this is the unsaved sinner's response before God - that which you have written can never happen, since such a response would be adding to God's Work. As I remember, you've stated previously that it is only God Who saves: "We must be Born Again as God applies His Salvation to those whom He saves BEFORE we can believe with our whole heart. That is Salvation. And our Belief, our Faith is the RESULT of God applying salvation to one of His elect. And is not because we have "accepted" an offer of salvation". (continued on Page 3).
So the problem is: if God saves BEFORE we can believe - and Belief/Faith can only happen at the moment of salvation, what then is the penitent sinner believing & calling out to God in faith, if it is not Believing & Faith itself. Rather, it may be better stated, 'that the Holy Spirit at the proper time gives the needed Grace & Faith to believe ( Ephesians 2:8), yet the sinner coming to the Lord still needs Faith to believe by the Grace of God - and I believe that this Faith in no way contributes to God's Work of Salvation. As well, if a sinner is born again, he already has expressed belief/faith, therefore it cannot happen at or after salvation is given.
Acts 16:30,31, describes this matter well. The Philippian jailer, after seeing what took place in his prison, cried out to Paul & Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The jailer was still unregenerate at this point, when Paul & Silas said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house". The jailer, as all sinners, have to believe on Jesus & His finished Work for them - and this belief is when they are still in sin & not at or after salvation.
I happen to agree with David in that one who is dead in sin must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel. It seems that yoo may think that being born again always happen at the same time as one being saved (within a short time frame)
I guess I think that it is God who regenerates any and all who are elected to salvation, and that conversion is not always a matter of a short time frame. From God's perspective, He can regenerate anyone and bring them to repentance and faith in a short period of time or over a more lengthy time frame. Yet from the standpoint of the person elected, they may not truly know when they exactly they were regenerated, but may know when they first believed the gospel and realized that they are saved.
I do believe only a regenerated person can cry out to God to save them because an unregenerated man will never desire to turn to God and seek salvation from God. But the God who regenerates is the One who brings one to repentance, a desire to petition God for salvation, and faith to believe the gospel (at which time the person realizes that they HAVE been saved by Jesus).
I hope I am not being confusing here or not presenting my ideas clearly. Even so, I hope that my thoughts may cause some to think deeply on this matter rather than in a superficial way (not that I think you are that way).
He who began the good work in you is faithful to complete it. (I can't recall the verse that says this at the moment, but it is clear that all that we are commanded to do to be saved is accomplished by the grace and action of God in the total process of our salvation) Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. God does all that is needed for us to be saved. After we realize that we are born again and saved, we can look back and say that it is all of God, not by my effort, choice, or desire, but His election and sovereign power to make alive that which is dead to Him.
May I intervene and say a few things?
Let us see some cases in the Book of Acts concerning people who believed in Jesus. Say Paul. Was he regenerated when he saw Jesus on his way to Damascus? On the contrary he was on a mission to jail the christians there. So what happened to him and believed in Jesus? Answer. Jesus' appearance to him. Second case, Cornelius and his friends. Were they regenerated when Peter came and preached to them? What made them believe? Because of the appearance of the angel Cornelius saw when fasting. Next case That Roman in Cyprus. Was he regenerated? Until a time he couldn't make up his mind who was right, Paul or that sorcerer. What opened his (spiritual) eyes and believed? The loss of sight of that sorcerer after Paul's command. So we see that many times God acts in specific ways to assist people to believe in Him. Recalling how God helped me to believe in Jesus, well, I had a client who was a new born christian. Sometime he started talking to me about Jesus and salvation. I had my beliefs at that time like all people in the world. Maybe God exists maybe no, maybe there is afterlife, maybe not. And I was resisting to him a lot. But what made me keep discussing with him about Jesus was a very joyful feeling I was always having as we were talking about these things. I was feeling joy all the time. And I kept going back and talk until God found an opening in my hert and did all the good work. If not, probably I would be bored after the second time and ended such conversations. So you see joy was the specific action of God to me.
So instead of saying "regeneration" maybe we can say "a specific action of God to those He knows that will believe" to help them believe? Think about it.
Finally in Jeremiah 23:29 says, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" God's word is like a hammer that breaks a rock. What is a rock? it is a stonny heart, an unregenerated heart, isn't it?
Today is a busy day with the remodeling so I will get back to you soon/
I think what we are grappling with here, is the word, 'regeneration'. I understand you believe that 'regeneration' can happen at any time to the one who is 'elected to salvation' to enable him to come to salvation. Whereas, the word 'regenerate' to me means 're-birth', and not simply an awakening or displaying some propensity towards spiritual things. I'm sorry if I've not properly grasped your meaning, but that's what I gather.
The best verse I can think of for this matter is Titus 3:3-5:
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly".
Paul of course, speaks of our former spiritual condition, then on God's Love & Kindness shown to sinful man (via the Gospel), and finally, that man could never save himself or make himself right before God, but could ONLY BE SAVED because of God's Mercy toward him. And how was his salvation effected? By 'regeneration' and by 'renewal', through the Holy Ghost.
If this sinner was first regenerated, so he could repent, respond, or approach God for salvation, then why would he need to do these things, for he was already regenerated & renewed by the Holy Ghost? And this question I had just posed to David0921. So, regeneration to me equates to re-birth, for I can't perceive that a regenerative Work of God is any less than that. If anything, as stated in another post of mine, I see the 'convicting, drawing, compelling' Work of the Holy Spirit urging the unregenerated soul - but this I wouldn't consider as a regenerative work. Thanks for your input here.
Pt. 3
His wisdom and counsel is beyond our ability to know and understand; and that we are to submit ourselves to His sovereignty in all these things and trust in Him as truly good, loving, gracious, and merciful. His reasons for choosing as He has are mysterious to us, but in perfect harmony with His nature. And these choices are really His business to act on and not ours to criticize.
I often think that if one must chose to believe the gospel, then what happens to those who have not heard, are too young to understand, or too impaired to discern it, too deaf to hear it, etc. Are all of these damned? I am not aware of any bible verse that speaks of an "age of accountability" for infants and children, nor that they get a pass because they cannot make an informed choice to believe. I do know that Jesus said that we are not to prevent children (including infants) to come unto Him because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, there must be a way for God's saving grace to reach these humans with regeneration and faith even though their understanding is not yet mature enough to fully understand their need to be saved from sin and the content of the gospel. Jesus also said that only those born of water and the Spirit can come into the kingdom. So how does God apply this to infants and children should they die before this "age of accountability" if they are in a state of depravity, dead in sin, separated from God, and unregenerated?
These are very profound things to consider. I know I do not have all of the answers from a biblical perspective. But I do have my viewpoint based on what I do find in Scripture. And in so many ways, a viewpoint is really what any of us have as we search the Scriptures for answers and a mindset that is like that of God in Christ.
I will leave this post for now having brought up some matters that pertain to God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself.
Have a good day in Aus.
Thank you GiGi for your thought-provoking comments here, as also on the Character Traits of God, now His Sovereignty & being Superlative. So, to continue here.
Going through your list of mankind's condition before God & God's Work towards man's renewal, I will list those, & other points, with verse(s), & in the order that I understand them.
a. Man's total depravity ( Romans 3:9,10,23).
b. God's Love & Mercy for all sinners ( John 3:16: 'loved the World' of sinners, not only the Elect; 2 Peter 3:9: 'God suffers long, not willing that any (all sinners) should perish'.
c. God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, Calling, Justification, Glorification ( Romans 8:29,30: Paul shares this order pertaining to believers, where the logic is, if God foreknew those who would be His, it is understood that He also knew those who would reject Him). And through His Knowledge, God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy & blameless people ( Ephesians 1:4).
To what have we been predestined to? To be conformed to His Son's Image (v29), according to God's Purpose ( Ephesians 1:11), & to be adopted into His Family ( Ephesians 1:5).
Calling. Various types of Calling given in the Bible, but pertaining to salvation: 1 Peter 2:9, 'having called us out of darkness (our sinful state without God) into His marvellous light (our forgiven state with God & His Son). Do we then just transition from darkness to light without a work of God the Spirit in us? And it is to this point that our discussions have focussed. Paul in Romans 8 is speaking to believers, so the matter of repentance wasn't mentioned, but may have been implied here.
However, Paul in Acts 17 spoke to the idolatrous Athenians, 'that God calls on all men everywhere to repent'. And here we read that unregenerate men were called to repentance. Continued on Page 2.
So, we have the mystery here: did those at Mars Hill who believed Paul, repent while still unsaved, or were they under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, or were they regenerated first so they could repent & believe? From the order you gave, I note that you've written 'Regeneration before Belief, Repentance, Conversion, & Redemption'. Whereas, my order would be, Repentance, Belief, Redemption/Regeneration/Conversion. And as stated elsewhere, my understanding of Regeneration is synonymous with Re-birth. So if one is regenerated before believing & repentance, then why the need for believing & repentance, for he has already been given re-birth & converted?
As far as the creation, the holiness, & the rebellion of some angels are considered, like many things in the Word, it's simply not possible to form hard & fast views & beliefs. But in regard to humanity, as you stated, "Some (humans) to be elected to receive salvation and most of humanity not chosen by Him before the creation of the world", places our understanding at a different level pertaining to angels. If what you believe is truth, then it would be wrong for God to relegate most of humanity, not chosen by Him, to an eternal hell. Why? Because those unfortunate people will have to suffer because God ordained them to suffer. How then does such a belief stand against the Scriptures that say that He is not willing that any should perish? Because He has willed that many will perish. To me this would be incredibly baffling, making God to be an ogre, indiscriminately saving some, causing others of His creation to perish. This I can't accept or reconcile in any other way, than stated elsewhere: that the Gospel comes to all, for all are sinners - what we do as sinners in response, in concert with the Holy Spirit working in the life so touched, fits all the Scriptures much better and makes the preaching of the Gospel all the more necessary & timely (at least the apostles regarded it so).
Onto Page 3.
And to also consider the other mystery, of which you addressed: what about the infants, the mentally/physically infirmed, or those who've never heard of Jesus - what is their state before God? Though not clearly revealed to us, except for possible snapshots, we can only entrust these souls to a Merciful God, Who makes no mistakes to the right outcome for all & we do our part to give them every opportunity to hear & respond, if they can. And this has spurred many to go to far-off unreached people groups, hazarding their lives (some having lost theirs), so that others might have an opportunity to hear of God's Love & Forgiveness, & of renewed changed lives.
So, I've tried to address at least most of your points here GiGi; but in relation to your subject, "God's sovereign freedom of His will that is unconditioned by any source or action outside of Himself", I agree that God is Sovereign in every situation & His Will will be performed, but could we also say that His Sovereign Will can only be declared/seen when all His Attributes (some of which are His Mercy, Love, Foreknowledge, Longsuffering, the Gift of Himself in Jesus) must combine together to form that Sovereign Will? Or, is His Will separate from His other Attributes? Something to consider, I think. Blessings & thank you for provoking our thoughts.
Pt. 3
Pelagius taught that man's reason was not corrupted by the fall and that Adam's sin was not imputed nor inherited by subsequent offspring. So He did not think that man needed to cooperate with God to be saved nor did He believe that a person could be saved by God's sovereign choice without the assent of the human.
Augustine refuted Pelagius and taught that man was morally depraved from conception because of Adam's sin and needed God's grace to be saved. He taught that regeneration was a sole work of God and man did not cooperate with God to be saved.
So Pelagius taught a monergism that was solely a work of man and Augustine taught a monergism that was solely the work of God.
Pelagius' view was condemned as heretical by the church and Augustine's view prevailed in the church until the Reformation.
Luther, Calvin, Knox all taught an Augustinian monergism. Along comes Arminius teaching semi-Pelagianism that man must cooperate with God and His grace to be saved. He denied that regeneration was a monergistic work of God and that it was God and man working together to bring about salvation. This view is called synergistic because it involves the work or cooperation of more than one person.
Since that time monergism and synergism has been strongly debated among believers, especially theologians for centuries, as it is today. And among regular folk like us, we are blessed to have the Bible in our language to read and study. So each of us must do that and form our beliefs from what we learn. I used to believe decisional regeneration but from my reading of Scripture I have come to believe in monergistic regeneration prior to one's repentance and belief. That does not make my view correct or not. But it just shows that people can be brought to change their views as they study the Scriptures.
This thread is getting very long so I will exit this thread and consider how I will start a new one on one of the topics I listed in my reply to you. Thanks again.
Thanks GiGi & yes this thread is long & cumbersome - pity to those trying to read it on their phones. What you shared about your early childhood is not dissimilar to mine; for I was brought up in a very godly, Christ-honoring home, taken to Church, attended children's S/School, had devotions/prayer-time at home, & lived according to biblical & parental rules. Only in my late teens, did I go 'off the rails' as my work took me far from home & under the influence of ungodly peers. In other words, what faith & love I had for the Lord earlier had altogether disappeared, preferring my new lifestyle of sin & having no conviction of it.
But in respect of my very early years, my recollection, though limited, was that I was always encouraged to 'accept Jesus into my heart'. This I willingly did, knowing that this was based on my understanding of sin, Jesus' Love & Sacrifice for me, & to receive the Gift of Salvation. Now my emphasis here is on the "Gift". After running amok for about eight years, the Holy Spirit took hold of me in a manner I had never experienced, even in those early years. I was deeply convicted of my sinful life & estrangement from the Lord, & in brokenness & tears confessed my sins. And at that very moment, a very strong sense of being forgiven, acceptance, & an inward renewal (regeneration) had taken place. But what of those early years, similar to yours?
Since being given re-birth & deeply studying the Word, I considered what my state was during those earlier years. I believe that every new-born has a sin nature; you asked, "Why would God have this be?" In my simple way, if Adam was created without a sin nature & then that nature became corrupted because of his sin, then all who have a blood connection to him must also have that fallen nature transferred to them regardless of age or innocence (maybe Romans 5:12 applies here). To Page 2.
It appears to be a natural law of transference of human nature, to which God doesn't eradicate when making 'a new creation in Christ', rather giving us His Spirit so we can live this New Life & have the wherewithal to deal with the enemy of our souls. Our sinful human nature still requires this sin-affected body to age & die, but the promise is that our spirits shall live, for they are no longer dead gripped in sin, but new and alive unto God.
Therefore, when I see a new-born babe, I see the little one not as you do (i.e. "God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when they cannot yet believe" and "that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability)". Rather, I see a babe, whatever the religion or heart condition of the parents, as one born in innocence yet with a sinful human nature. What keeps such a one from being rejected by God if there is an early death, is that that sin nature has not been fed yet with sin (a wilful act of sin bringing a response in the heart). So in my mind, 'regeneration' doesn't come up here, as there is no need for re-birth, and no question whether the babe is a part of the elect or not - that if the sin nature has not been fed, all are innocent & will be saved.
Re: "decisional regeneration". I've stated before, even to David0921, that I don't believe that to accept/receive Christ adds to God's redeeming/regenerating Work, nor is that act necessary for God to complete His Work. I believe that since salvation through Christ is God's Gift (in very truth, undeserved) to all, those being drawn & convicted by the Spirit, will respond under such conviction. As mentioned previously, if one is regenerated first so they can respond, it seems to defeat the need to respond, as they have already been regenerated. Onto Page 3.
Just as a child receiving a gift responds by reaching out to take (or, grab) it, with a smile or a thank you following, the sinner under deep conviction of his sinful state, of deserved punishment, will certainly reach out & give thanks for such a gift from God Who alone can save him. The Work of God has already been completed when Jesus made the payment for sin, nothing more can ever be added to it, not even a sinner's acceptance & appreciation.
I realize that I, and those who have been saved from other religions or a sinful lifestyle, can have a salvation experience that is different to say, as yours, where you were brought up in a Christian home & lived a godly life, increasing in faith & knowledge. I feel that even though the Spirit's Work in each case is the same, it might be very different in the severity of conviction & understanding. For you, you have been faithful to the Lord & His Word from your early years, so regeneration has been early, especially when you came to the age of understanding what sin is & the Gospel that saves - and you embraced that & continued in joy, hope & confidence of your position in Christ. For most others, coming out of a life of sin & false religions, I'm confident that what was a subtle Work of the Holy Spirit in you to save you will be a heart-wrenching, mighty shake-up & revelation from God in others. In either case, regeneration must take place: for me the date is set in stone (Oct 23, 1979), for you, a quieter unnoticeable transition under the Spirit's Ministry in your life. I'll leave it here for now & thanks again.
Pt. 2
So, I cannot definitely say when I was saved or regenerated or first believed. I just grew up knowing that I was saved by Jesus and His death and resurrection. I have lived all of my life as a believer and so I have lived a life far different than someone who was a pagan, atheist, or uninformed until they came to Christ as an adult. I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God. I am sure many people have a similar testimony about God's sovereign grace bestowed on them before they can even remember.
In the Scriptures, especially in the book of Acts and in the Epistles we have accounts of adults who were unregenerated coming to faith, not about children born to faith filled, regenerated parents. Yet ever since that first generation of converts to the Christian faith there have been millions of children brought up by believing parents and were exposed from infancy the truth of the Gospel and the salvation that God gives to them by grace alone.
But nevertheless, in today's western nations, people have grown up for many decades having been taken to church and taught how God wants us to act by parents who may not even be believers, but it was expected of parents to take their children to church, etc.
Also, the idea of decisional regeneration is fairly new in Christian history. (which does not make it right or wrong doctrine just because it is new).
In the 500's Pelagius promoted that any human can come to God all on His own without grace from God. He taught that man's will was not in bondage to sin and that people are born morally neutral. See more
I have read your replies and thank you for taking time to consider the topics and give thoughtful responses. I know that I threw out a lot of things to consider.
I wanted to address the issue of infants and others who are not able to intellectually understand their need for salvation or the gospel.
I believe that each and every human is conceived with a sinful nature. I can't even imagine why God would have this be, but the Bible is clear that this is true. And the Bible says that no one seeks God or is able to eradicate this nature from within themselves on their own. So, the people I am speaking about are dead in sin, separated from God. So, I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
they cannot yet believe as we do who are older. Should they die in infancy or childhood, I believe that they are saved because God ordained them to be elect and also knew and chose that they would not reach the age of accountability.
But does this mean that every infant is regenerated? I don't think so, but certainly those who would die young.
Let me explain from my life experience because I think that my experience is very common for people who were born into a family of faith and exposed to the gospel from very young age. I am not saying this happens to all children of believing parents, but to many over the centuries.
I cannot remember a time when I did not believe in Jesus. I can remember that I did as far back as my preschool years, say about 3. I cannot remember before that. AS I grew up, my understanding of God, Jesus' saving work for me, and the need to believe the Gospel also grew and matured. As I entered my teen years, living my life for Jesus was very important to me and I have done so for the remainder of my life. So, when did I first believe? Certainly not when I was a teen or even a school-age child.
See pt. 2
May I point something out in your posts that seems a bit confusing.
In part 1 you stated "I do not think that these people are saved because they are innocent. I believe that God ordains their salvation and does regenerate them even when
THEY CANNOT YET BELIEVE AS WE DO WHO ARE OLDER.
However, here's what you say about yourself.
In part 2 you stated,
"I cannot recall ever having a time when I was away from God in Christ nor a time when I did not know the gospel. This must have been when I was an infant. I believe that as an infant, toddler, or preschooler I heard the Gospel message from church readings and was taught from infancy about Jesus and that I was regenerated and given faith to believe before I could know to accept or reject the gospel, nor did I know what it was like to rebel against God.
Gigi, do you not see something wrong with these statements?
I do not see any problem with what I posted. If God chose to have me be aware of believing in Him from a very early age, that is God's sovereign choice for me.
As for the others, infants and very young children can be given faith and believe but it is not in the same manner as adults.
For illustration, David said that God caused him to trust in Him while he was at His mother's breast. But an adult trusts God in a more metacogntive way. They are intellectually aware that they are trusting someone and now who they are trusting.
For another example, our new grandchild is believing that she will get feed and nurtured by her mom, but this is different than adults who can detect God's providence (or anyone else's) and connect that with His love and compassion.
I was also referring to babies and children who die young. I believe that God does save them. He regenerates them and causes them to believe within the soul, but perhaps not in the intellect. But it is all a work of God, not of the volition of the infant or child.
I also believe that God works the same way with unregenerate adults. He predestines them to election, regenerates them at the time He chooses, calls them, gives them faith to believe and repentance as he draws them to call upon Jesus for salvation.
I think that those who hold to a synergistic view of regeneration and faith give the unregenerate person's "free" will to much credit as it is just as corrupted as all the rest of him as a result of the sinful nature. I believe that an unregenerate person is unable to choose anything positive having to do with God and salvation. They, instead would be indifferent or hostile, or at enmity with God. They are unwilling to find out the truth about Him and rebel in their hearts at the thought of believing the Gospel and coming to Jesus for salvation. This will of unregenerate man is enslaved to the sinful nature and ruled by the prince of the power of the air Eph. 2:2.
Thanks for asking.
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