Allow me to comment something more on replys exchanged between you and David 0921,something about 'death as confined to the grave'; something like cause and efect. By the way,death is an enemy, how to fight with him and defect him?
To deeply analyze and understand this terrible biblical theme, we need to start from the beginning of a mortal process that has existed since the beginning.Where does the dying process of man begin? Well, the Word of God reveals to us where it begins, by the way, the Word is GOD, understand?
Here's the source and the beginning of the mortal process:
Prov.18:21KJV:-Death and life are in the power of the TONGUE...
James 3:5-6:->5 The TONGUE is a little member, and boasts great things.Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6The TONGUE is a fire,A WORLD OF INIQUITY:so is the TONGUE among our members, that it defileth(and kills)the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature(as in days of Noah and Lot);and it is set on FIRE of HELL.
What is the MOUTH of the grave and how is it seen?Well,what does the Word of GOD say?Rom.3:10-18
10 As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understand,there is none that seeks after GOD.
12 They are all gone out of the way,they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good,no, not one.
13 Their THROAT is an open SEPULCHRE;with their TONGUES they have used deceit;the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose MOUTH is full of cursing and bitterness
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways
17 And the way of peace have they not known
18 There is no fear of GOD before their eyes
You said:'death as confined to the grave',death caused by a THROAT(an open sepulchre)and a satanic TONGUE,so the dead body is placed in the grave because of the bad smell that exudes from the dead(spiritually the stench of the sin),and you are obliged to get rid of it by burying it in an open hole in the earth
Just to clarify Jema. 'Limbo' & 'purgatory' do not mean the same - if that was in your mind. I apologize if you were thinking of some other RC doctrine that I don't know of & therefore would welcome enlightening so that I might consider my error.
However, I can see how you might understand 'being in limbo' as 'souls waiting for Heaven', and 'purgatory' which involves a time of spiritual cleansing so that the soul can be acceptable to God & fit to enter Heaven, as very similar. Purgatory is an RC teaching based on the Apocryphal writings & is not Scriptural Truth. Anyway, I've written to David0921 citing Scriptures that reveal the underworld & those righteous ones that awaited release & attained it after Christ's Redemptive Work was completed.
Thanks for that Chris , did you notice the scripture for today on this site ? John Ch 5 V 28 . I believe that John is speaking of a yet future event in this verse .
I did notice that Jema. In fact, as you know, Jesus repeated this Truth twice (also in John 5:25), where He adds, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, AND NOW IS....". I wonder if Jesus is also referring to one of the great signs at His coming Crucifixion, when He would yield up His Spirit, & when 'the graves were opened, and many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose, & came out of their graves...'. So, two mighty events: at His Crucifixion & then at His Coming. Lifeless, corrupt bodies might lie in the grave, but the spirits of just men made perfect ( Hebrews 12:23) & to the Church of the Firstborn, are promised to live forever in the presence of God their Father.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
These passages, I believe are talking about two Resurrections:
The First Resurrection ( John 5:25) in which God applies Salvation to the life of a True Believer in causing them to become Born Again, in giving them their Resurrected Soul, in raising them from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life, Eternal Life.
And then the Resurrection of the Last Day ( John 5:28,29) when True Believers will be given their Spiritual Bodies in which they will live an reign with Christ Eternally as a complete personality in the New Heavens and New Earth.
Hi David , thanks for your reply to me . Please keep in mind 2nd Timothy Ch 2 V 14-18 . My beliefs are that the first ressurection will take place at Christ's return and the second at the end of his 1000 year reign over the earth and the humans on it . During that 1000 years , humans will live and die and at the end of it , those that died during it will be ressurected and judged and finally God will be all in all and no flesh will be alive . I believe that the wages of sin is death , therefore , as we all sin we all die and stay dead until Christ returns . We may discuss this all day but my beliefs will not change , I would much rather talk about the things we have in common , I don't enjoy argumentative debates no matter how polite :) . I respect others beliefs and hope that mine will be respected . Circular debates are to me a waste of my energy and unenjoyable to me . I don't feel the need to defend my beliefs and don't want to . Maybe this isn't the site for me :) . Some people really enjoy debates but I really don't . I haven't come to my beliefs lightly and I've been reading the Bible every day for almost 30 years . I think I need a break from this site . May God bless you all .
I would only respond with these verses. And the encouragement to continue searching the scriptures, praying that God might lead you into truth. Because not one of us has plumbed the depths of the riches of the Word of God. The Bible is the only source book of absolute Truth.
2 Timothy 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Dear David , thank you for your kindness to me . There is something that I'm noticing a lot on here and it's distressing me . This is not personal to you so please don't take it as such . When a person , for some reason , finds a part of the Bible unpalatable , they ignore it , thereby creating a gap in the narrative , then they feel the need to fill that gap with their own imaginings or the imaginings of others . So many things seem so clear and straight forward to me and I get frustrated when others don't see what I see . I guess everyone on here could say that :) . This 'making up the gaps' or rather , the perceived gaps , really gets to me . This is why I don't enjoy in-depth debates . I always read and enjoy your posts , even if I don't agree with you :) . Posts that are just full of humans imaginings , cunningly devised fables I think Paul calls them , irritate me a lot . I need to keep away from such posts , I don't have the patience for them . I hope you have a great day today , I'm off to do some shopping for my parents . I thank God for life and I thank God so much for His Precious Work , the Bible , our comforter and strengthener and peace . I need it every day .
I see these "gaps", as you call them, as well. I also see statements made and then verses quoted that often do not relate to what is being stated. And I rarely respond to these types of posts.
I do try to quote verses to support what I'm stating. In fact, I like to actually include the words of the verses themselves rather than merely the reference, because our focus should be on God's Words not our words. I don't want anyone to trust what I say. I want us to trust what God says.
Also we must recognize that if we have come to any truth from the Bible it is only because of God's Mercy. It is God that must open our Spiritual ears and give us ears to hear, from the Scripture, in His time in accordance with His Will. We are not in control of this; God is. We must wait upon God. By nature we do not like that idea; we want to be in control. And this often leads to frustration. But we must wait upon God.
Yes, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of GOD: and they that hear shall live, and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord, and so shall we ever be with the Lord, for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15
And the NATIONS were(WLL BE) angry, and thy wrath is come(GOD'S WRATH has already started), and the time of the DEAD, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth- Revelation 11:18.
Daniel 12:1-3 (combined with Isaiah 26:19-21. Take a look.)
1 At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
An another of the disciples said unto JESUS: Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But JESUS said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (let the dead bury their dead? What is your understand of this?)
In Catholicism, Limbo is the place where infants and children who ere not baptized go to upon death util the time God takes them into heaven. Purgatory is the place where believers go to be refined and purged of residual sin to be fit to enter heaven.
I don't believe that either of these places exist nor that this doctrine is true. The phrase "being left in limbo" then was coined to describe a state of "not yet" decided or completed, as in and unfinished project is ceased from being completed to be tabled for another time to be finished. And the phrase of something being a "purgatory" was coined to describe a place or situation that is very uncomfortable with suffering and difficulties.
Thank you GiGi, I appreciated that explanation about 'Limbo'. I had never known that 'other' meaning in relation to the RC teaching of their young ones, yet unbaptized (under the RC system), were held back (in limbo) from Heaven. So, I can see where the use of the word, though I innocently expressed concerning the OT faithful being kept in Hades, actually has a more sinister meaning & application. So thanks for that info & apologies again to Jema & anyone else who might have thought I was giving support to an RC teaching.
Oh Chris, i was not thinking that you were giving support to RC at all. Rather, I think that you were simply using known words to describe what you thought the OT saints were sent to when they died.
And as for me, I just wanted to clarify the RC teaching about purgatory and limbo. People us these words in phrases as I mentioned that speak to an earthly situation. But in RC, these terms are used for the two places saved people go to upn death until they are "fit for heaven". I don't believe these teachings at all.
***This comment was inadvertently posted in the wrong thread. I have deleted that comment and am now reposting in the correct thread***
Chris,
Please see my response to what I thought was your last. And with which I agree regarding our disparate beliefs.
In this comment you are suggesting that Romans 3 is "only addressed" to those in Rome. Not true! While it is written to the Church in Rome addressing perhaps their misunderstanding of Mankind's condition, it, like the entire Bible, is written and addressed to all Mankind. And that statement is a statement of Mankind's condition, without exception, that has existed ever since Adam's first Sin of disobedience to God 's Law. That apart from God's Mercy in Salvation as He applies that Salvation to our life in making us Born Again, we are Spiritually Dead and in Bondage to Sin and Satan. And none of Mankind has any "inherent faith" that is pleasing to God and can result in Salvation.
To say it very plainly, you and I understand Salvation and the nature of the Bible quite differently.
I just take what is said in Hebrews 4 at face value as being the same gospel because I do not read in the epistles that there are more than one gospel. Paul even said in Galatians that if anyone preaches any other gospel that that of Jesus, they are to be accursed. So the New Testament is the Testament of the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by those who knew Jesus in His earthly life and resurrected life and Paul who knew Jesus after His resurrection. I believe that the rest spoken of in Hebrews is our inheritance as saved individuals, but the gospel is that of Christ crucified, even that of Him being crucified from before the creation of the world. This is the Everlasting Covenant made between the Godhead to create a people who will need to be redeemed from sin they commit, death they will face as a result of sin against God, and the evil one who prowls after fallen mankind to keep them from redemption.
God foreknew all of these things and His plan of redemption predates His creation of the world and all beings that live. God's purpose for creating was to redeem a people for Himself to share in the glory of His presence, life, and communion of the Godhead. He, in His infinite wisdom always knew that this was the ultimately best way to create what came into existence, even with the sureness that many angels will sin and rebel, and also, that mankind would sin and rebel, and then that the good created world will be corrupted by the sin of mankind and the fallen angels. God is so much greater than all of this sin and corruption. He knew that He could infinitely overcomes both sin and the evil ones through His acts of salvation. He knew that a redeemed people is infinitely better than a people who could not sin and would not know of sin.
So, I see only one gospel preached, one Eternal Covenant, one plan for all of the redeemed, and one way for all to be saved in Christ Jesus. ...cont.
Probably I didn't make it clear in my previous post that we may be misled to a wrong conclusion about Hebrews 4:2 and it is not our fault. To put it plainly the translation is wrong here.
Lets do some greek first, it will be useful as far as that verse is concerned. You must be a bit patient to follow me.
The phrase in KJV in Heb 4:2 "the gospel was preached" in grk it is "esmen evengelismenoi". The word "evengelismenoi" comes from the verb "evagelizomai" which is in Engl. "to evangelize". It comes from "Evangelion" (Evangelium in Latin) which means "a good message, good news". From "Ev" which in anc gtk means "good" and "angelia" which means "message" (the word "angel" comes from this word. "Angel" in anc grk means "messenger"). The word Evangelion (good message/news, gospel) today means the gospel of Christ. But that was not the case in ancient times. During Jesus' time it meant any good news, ie a message of a victory in a battle against an enemy was an evangelion(gospel), a message from the Emperor was an evangelion(gospel), even the Emperor's birthday was an evangelion(gospel), any good news actually was an evangelion(gospel).
In that context we must examine that verse. The literal/right translation is "the good message/news they were told". It has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ, and this is how this specific verse is translated in all other English translations which I searched.
So what was the good news for the Hebrews when they went out of Egypt? It was the message of a promised land where they could rest and be protected from their enemies. That is why it says that they didn't have faith in those good news. If we assume that Paul talks about Jesus' gospel, it doesn't make sense. Those Hebrews that went out of Egypt didn't believe Christ's gospel? What that gospel had to do with them, especially at the time of escaping from Egypt?
1 Cor 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained ..."
The whole letter of Hebrews is centered on Jesus, the Son of God, the divine Word, who was incarnated into a human nature and fleshly body unique to Himself to fulfill all that was involved to save humanity from the bondage and condemnation of sin decided from pre-creatin in the Everlasting Covenant within the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The book of Hebrews is all about Jesus, our Savior and we as believers of this one gospel are contrasted to the OT Israelites who did not believe this one gospel that Moses preached to them in the wilderness. It is the same gospel preached to Abraham. The good news that God will save them from their sin and corruption and bring them into an everlasting inheritance in the presence of God forever.
As I said before, we do not know all of what God communicated to the patriarchs, prophets, David, and others concerning this gospel. But Hebrews says that it was preached to Israel in the wilderness, and I believe it is the same gospel we preach and believe. Whereas Hebrews chapter 4 is speaking of the rest of God, this does not equate to the gospel referred to in verse 2 as a gospel of rest-the physical land of Canaan for Israel and the heavenly Jerusalem for us. The result of hearing the gospel of Jesus and believing it is the reception of forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance kept for us in heaven.
Giannis, thank you for explaining your thoughts to me. I do appreciate your input. I just do not concur with your analysis of this verse in Hebrews Chapter 4.
Same gospel, yet in an embryo state of types & shadows, its blessing were outward, worldly & only cleansed to the purifying of the flesh, was a tutor to led us to Christ who's Blood cleanses the conscience from dead works " sin; meaning the author of it " by His Spirit of Grace & Truth in the inward parts.
The OT gospel of the letter commanded, but could not empower, thus the history of Israel never continuing steadfast & faithful to the end. Which is a repeated exhortation in Hebrews to us & them as our example of what not to do.
Yet, God in Hebrews 11 gives us Light of the true & living faith, that comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself. We must put a separation from a faith that comes from the letter & the living faith that comes from the Spirit, letter kills, Spirit brings us into the very Life of God, becoming partakers of the Divine Nature & delivers us from the corruption of our fleshly birth.
With the NT gospel of Grace, inwardly, God promise Holy Spirit provides the power for the new birth John 3:6 its blessing are inward, heavenly, spiritual, in truth "Christ" the Substance of all things. Who in the fullest of time was made a life quickening Spirit, for our sake
Concerning the rest of Chapter 4 its has to do with obedience to the gospel under the 2 covenants, it they would have obey, their was a certain measure of rest that OT gospel provided, otherwise, they could not have been condemned for not entering into it & the same goes for us, the question is, who will truly enter?
Our rest is in Christ, the Substance, who provides all for us, in causing us to will & do of His good pleasure by the promise
Holy Spirit, to those that believe, believing & obeying are synonym, we enter into His works that were finished from the foundation of the world Ephesians 2:10 provided we obey Him, thus He becomes the Author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him.
I do not equate the gospel preached to the Israelites mentioned in Hebrews 4:2 with the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is not the gospel at all. It is the Law that brings us condemnation because no one but Christ could keep it fully.
It seems like you have misunderstood what I posted.
you say the law of Moses was there condemnation, yes indeed; to those who did not obey it, but what is it to those who do, but there glory, in the measure that God was please to reveal of His Grace which was freely given under the OT gospel
quoting you; no one but Christ could fully keep it
Luke 1:6Philippians 3:6
to use your own tools of understanding
blameless!
, ( to blame), blameless, deserving no censure, free from fault or defect: Luke 1:6; Philippians 2:15; Philippians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:13Hebrews 8:7 (in which nothing is lacking); in the Sept. equivalent to , Job 1:1, 8 etc
Do you think, that perhaps you could be blinded here?
We are only "blameless" if Christ has paid for our sins and we have become Born Again. Then the Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we no longer stand guilty before the Law of God. No saved person will ever become "blameless" or "faultless" while living in their fleshly body.
When we become Born Again, God does give us a New Resurrected Soul which, in itself, cannot sin. But that Soul still resides in a Body that has not been "saved" and still lusts after sin. And so, while every True Believer will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God and will continue to Grow in Grace, they will never attain a state of Sinless Perfection in regard to keeping the Law of God. Hence the Apostle Paul's statement "the good that I would I do not; but the evil that I would not, that I do."
At the Last Day when all True Believers will be Resurrected / Raptured, they will receive their Resurrected Spiritual Bodies. At that time every True Believer will become Sinless in their whole personality and will live and reign with Christ in that state throughout Eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth.
From reading this and some of your other comments, you seem to have an incorrect understanding regarding the Nature of Salvation. I do pray that God might lead us both into Truth as we search the scriptures.
But thank you for you comment. And may the LORD richly bless you.
I desire to be submissive, & remain teachable, let take a look at one of your statement of belief.
You spoke to Ronald, & previously stating this many time as I recall
We get our understanding of the Bible from the Bible itself. The Bible alone and its entirety is the Word of God and must be our only Authority.
Ok, this is your faith, not mind, you know where I STAND ON THIS ISSUE, saying that Luke 1:6 they were not blameless. When the Scripture of Truth says plainly "walking in all the commandments & ordinances of the Lord blameless". along with the rest of the Scriptures that I've quoted concerning this, even giving you concordance reference which you use to understand the words of God. David, you don't even believe your own faith & your calling God a liar & you expect me to give heed to counsel such as this?
I could go on refuting you soundly with the Scriptures & sound reasoning, but considering our past conversations, what would be the purpose?
Souls are at stake here, whom Jesus suffer & paid the ultimate price for & God will judge His people Ecclesiastes 5:2,3
David,,,,,,, as Keith Green song says, Your heart is hard (& is hardening ) & your prayers are cold, so where will you go from here?
I did not respond to your posts to me because I don't think it would be very fruitful.
But to your post to David I will respond on the subject of how you evaluated his heart as being hard. For one, this is not true of David, and secondly, you cannot possibly be a judge as to the secret condition of the heart before God. Even though you and David disagree on some matters does not warrant such a harsh eval of David. Please consider repenting of judging him so.
What David has stated directly contradicts God's words, denies the Truth, makes God a liar. it's dishonor God, insults His Person & slanders His integrity. I recall you speaking somewhat of this to Spencer, What about our God
You don't call this hardness of heart? Speaking such things before a holy & pure God, as this is what God means, interpreting God's words, When God has given us Light & has not left us in the dark in such matters, 2Cor 2:10-13
Isaiah 1:27
Gigi, in truth, what I spoken is a token, a extension of God grace, mercy & love Him
Grace reveal God's judgments upon all ungodliness & righteousness that leads us to godliness, convicting of one & teaching the other.
John 16:8
Psalms 89:14 & if he would receive it as such, he would see God's face in repentance, not to be repented of.
In love for his eternal welfare & his calling of God in this life, I've waited on the Lord for instructions & so I spoke, as of now, I'm clear of this man's blood Acts 18:6 & if I'm clear in my conscience before God, no mortal can condemn me for it, & if not
Concerning our conversation continuing as being unfruitful, that will depend on our love for the Truth,
Hi GiGi. Just one thought in relation to this 'Gospel' in Hebrews 4:2, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them...". We do see words, such as Gospel, which is familiar to us that can compel us to believe that the same word must apply elsewhere in the Bible. In recent discussions about the word 'parable', I showed that what we read of Jesus' parables, do not always have the same meaning in the OT (sometimes, but not always); so we need to express care in reading & understanding.
An example in Acts 7:38, "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us". Here is a classic example of how a word, with the same spelling can have another meaning (known as 'homonyms'). E.g. in English (current; ring; spring; etc. are such examples). And I understand, the same in Hebrew & Greek (Giannis/Jesse can enlighten us on this). So, if we come to Acts 7:38 with a firm belief that Luke is speaking of the Church we know today as also applying to Moses' day, then we would greatly err. Luke (in v37), was clearly referring to Deuteronomy 18:15, when Moses spoke to the people, but Luke says, "this is he (Moses), that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in mount Sina...". So what is this 'church' comprised of? Can we assume that it must also be the same Church as we have today since 'Israel was saved as well by virtue of Christ's Sacrifice from the Earth's foundation', or, is the 'church' an homonym having another meaning? In Greek, 'ekklesia' is the word for 'church', however, it can also apply to an assembly or gathering of people. And when Luke refers this to the Hebrew rendering, 'qahal', we find that it isn't the Church we know of today, but indeed a 'gathering of God's people, Israel' ( Judges 21:8, 'assembly'; 1 Chronicles 29:1, 'congregation'). So maybe the word 'Gospel' needs similar treatment.
In grk those words are called synonyms. They are different words with the same meaning. ie church(ekklesia), synagogue(synagoge), congregation(synaxis), they mean the same, a gathering. The anc grks used them to express the same thing. Later, the church was used for the christian congregation and synagogue for the Jewish one. Today in some churches, the word church means the building where christians gather.
Now as I said to GiGi the respective word for gospel in grk (evangelion) actually means good message/news (in ancient greek). Any good message, not only the good news of salvation. The grk for gospel (evangelion) is a very ancient word. It first appears in Homer's poem, the "Iliad" in the 8th centuary BC, for the good message of a victory in a battle, also for the price given to him who brings the good news, or even the sacrifice that was offered to Gods for their support in a victory. In Roman times evangelion(gospel) was any good news from or about the Emperor. So it was not used just for Jesus' gospel. And with this meaning we should apply it in Heb 4:2. If we look it up in other Eng. translations, we find out that all of them translate it more or less as "good news spoken", I can not figure out why the KJV translaters prefered the phrase "gospel preached". Maybe there was no difference at that time. Maybe they really thought that it was Christ's gospel that was spoken to Hebrews, although the context of that chapter does not give that impression.
Thank you brother Giannis for adding your further thoughts to the meaning intended in Hebrews 4:2.
To the puzzle as to "why the KJV translators preferred gospel preached", my suspicion is that they, as you've pointed out, understood that the Gospel was indeed the 'good news'. But when we (post-Cross) had the Gospel preached to us, it clearly was the Good News of Christ's redemptive Work. But the Gospel preached unto them was also wonderful news, but to them it was the news of their future rest (first temporarily in Canaan, & then with the Lord forever).
So why did that Gospel not profit them? The verse states that it was because of a lack of faith. So, though the word 'Gospel' (good news) might be common in both thoughts, also the word 'Faith' is common as well; the former that they must have faith in what God had promised them in assuring them of a future Rest - and for us, that we must have faith in what God has promised us in Christ Jesus for salvation & rest.
The problem that arises when using the word 'Gospel' in this verse, is that if one believes that OT Israel also received the same Gospel as we have been given, then of course, they too must get saved as we do. But I simply do not see such a promise & provision given to them, and I don't think the KJV translators anticipated that confusion could arise later by their using the word 'Gospel', which was an apt word, though maybe perplexing to some today.
I quote Heb 4:2 from the NIV, ."1.Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2. For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. "
GiGi, also all the grk Bibles I have read so far agree on that matter that the message to the Hebrews was for their entrance to the promised land.
If we wish to know whether the Hebrews at that time did actually know about Christ's sacrifice, we can look at Ephesians 3:4-6, "4.Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
Why does Paul call God's plan a mystery for the people in OT? Because simply they didn't know about it.
Also please read 1 Cor 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"
GiGi, the Hebrews were expecting Christ (Messiah) as a king who would free them from their enemies and make them a nation which would rule over all other nations. They never expected Him as a man who would sacrifice Himself for the salvation of all nations, showing this way that they had never known God's mysterious plan. This is how I understand it and if I am wrong let God lead us.
Thanks for your reply. My NIV says gospel, not good news, so perhaps you have a different edition. But I know that gospel and good news mean the same thing.
Remebering what JESUS said: Matthew 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the END come. (The END is now, even now, from now on, in the turn from the sixth to the seventh Day. The Dispensation of Grace is finished in LITERAL fulfillment of the words of our Lord JESUS Christ. Unfortunately, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. JESUS said: The lord shall come in a Day when the servant looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites".
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Allow me to comment something more on replys exchanged between you and David 0921,something about 'death as confined to the grave'; something like cause and efect. By the way,death is an enemy, how to fight with him and defect him?
To deeply analyze and understand this terrible biblical theme, we need to start from the beginning of a mortal process that has existed since the beginning.Where does the dying process of man begin? Well, the Word of God reveals to us where it begins, by the way, the Word is GOD, understand?
Here's the source and the beginning of the mortal process:
Prov.18:21KJV:-Death and life are in the power of the TONGUE...
James 3:5-6:->5 The TONGUE is a little member, and boasts great things.Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6The TONGUE is a fire,A WORLD OF INIQUITY:so is the TONGUE among our members, that it defileth(and kills)the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature(as in days of Noah and Lot);and it is set on FIRE of HELL.
What is the MOUTH of the grave and how is it seen?Well,what does the Word of GOD say?Rom.3:10-18
10 As it is written,There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understand,there is none that seeks after GOD.
12 They are all gone out of the way,they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good,no, not one.
13 Their THROAT is an open SEPULCHRE;with their TONGUES they have used deceit;the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose MOUTH is full of cursing and bitterness
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways
17 And the way of peace have they not known
18 There is no fear of GOD before their eyes
You said:'death as confined to the grave',death caused by a THROAT(an open sepulchre)and a satanic TONGUE,so the dead body is placed in the grave because of the bad smell that exudes from the dead(spiritually the stench of the sin),and you are obliged to get rid of it by burying it in an open hole in the earth
However, I can see how you might understand 'being in limbo' as 'souls waiting for Heaven', and 'purgatory' which involves a time of spiritual cleansing so that the soul can be acceptable to God & fit to enter Heaven, as very similar. Purgatory is an RC teaching based on the Apocryphal writings & is not Scriptural Truth. Anyway, I've written to David0921 citing Scriptures that reveal the underworld & those righteous ones that awaited release & attained it after Christ's Redemptive Work was completed.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
These passages, I believe are talking about two Resurrections:
The First Resurrection ( John 5:25) in which God applies Salvation to the life of a True Believer in causing them to become Born Again, in giving them their Resurrected Soul, in raising them from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life, Eternal Life.
And then the Resurrection of the Last Day ( John 5:28,29) when True Believers will be given their Spiritual Bodies in which they will live an reign with Christ Eternally as a complete personality in the New Heavens and New Earth.
I would only respond with these verses. And the encouragement to continue searching the scriptures, praying that God might lead you into truth. Because not one of us has plumbed the depths of the riches of the Word of God. The Bible is the only source book of absolute Truth.
2 Timothy 3:16, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I see these "gaps", as you call them, as well. I also see statements made and then verses quoted that often do not relate to what is being stated. And I rarely respond to these types of posts.
I do try to quote verses to support what I'm stating. In fact, I like to actually include the words of the verses themselves rather than merely the reference, because our focus should be on God's Words not our words. I don't want anyone to trust what I say. I want us to trust what God says.
Also we must recognize that if we have come to any truth from the Bible it is only because of God's Mercy. It is God that must open our Spiritual ears and give us ears to hear, from the Scripture, in His time in accordance with His Will. We are not in control of this; God is. We must wait upon God. By nature we do not like that idea; we want to be in control. And this often leads to frustration. But we must wait upon God.
May God lead us into truth as we search His Word.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Yes, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of GOD: and they that hear shall live, and we which are alive shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord, and so shall we ever be with the Lord, for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:15
And the NATIONS were(WLL BE) angry, and thy wrath is come(GOD'S WRATH has already started), and the time of the DEAD, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth- Revelation 11:18.
Daniel 12:1-3 (combined with Isaiah 26:19-21. Take a look.)
1 At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
An another of the disciples said unto JESUS: Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But JESUS said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (let the dead bury their dead? What is your understand of this?)
In Catholicism, Limbo is the place where infants and children who ere not baptized go to upon death util the time God takes them into heaven. Purgatory is the place where believers go to be refined and purged of residual sin to be fit to enter heaven.
I don't believe that either of these places exist nor that this doctrine is true. The phrase "being left in limbo" then was coined to describe a state of "not yet" decided or completed, as in and unfinished project is ceased from being completed to be tabled for another time to be finished. And the phrase of something being a "purgatory" was coined to describe a place or situation that is very uncomfortable with suffering and difficulties.
And as for me, I just wanted to clarify the RC teaching about purgatory and limbo. People us these words in phrases as I mentioned that speak to an earthly situation. But in RC, these terms are used for the two places saved people go to upn death until they are "fit for heaven". I don't believe these teachings at all.
Chris,
Please see my response to what I thought was your last. And with which I agree regarding our disparate beliefs.
In this comment you are suggesting that Romans 3 is "only addressed" to those in Rome. Not true! While it is written to the Church in Rome addressing perhaps their misunderstanding of Mankind's condition, it, like the entire Bible, is written and addressed to all Mankind. And that statement is a statement of Mankind's condition, without exception, that has existed ever since Adam's first Sin of disobedience to God 's Law. That apart from God's Mercy in Salvation as He applies that Salvation to our life in making us Born Again, we are Spiritually Dead and in Bondage to Sin and Satan. And none of Mankind has any "inherent faith" that is pleasing to God and can result in Salvation.
To say it very plainly, you and I understand Salvation and the nature of the Bible quite differently.
[Comment Removed]
[Comment Removed]
Thank you for your response.
I just take what is said in Hebrews 4 at face value as being the same gospel because I do not read in the epistles that there are more than one gospel. Paul even said in Galatians that if anyone preaches any other gospel that that of Jesus, they are to be accursed. So the New Testament is the Testament of the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached by those who knew Jesus in His earthly life and resurrected life and Paul who knew Jesus after His resurrection. I believe that the rest spoken of in Hebrews is our inheritance as saved individuals, but the gospel is that of Christ crucified, even that of Him being crucified from before the creation of the world. This is the Everlasting Covenant made between the Godhead to create a people who will need to be redeemed from sin they commit, death they will face as a result of sin against God, and the evil one who prowls after fallen mankind to keep them from redemption.
God foreknew all of these things and His plan of redemption predates His creation of the world and all beings that live. God's purpose for creating was to redeem a people for Himself to share in the glory of His presence, life, and communion of the Godhead. He, in His infinite wisdom always knew that this was the ultimately best way to create what came into existence, even with the sureness that many angels will sin and rebel, and also, that mankind would sin and rebel, and then that the good created world will be corrupted by the sin of mankind and the fallen angels. God is so much greater than all of this sin and corruption. He knew that He could infinitely overcomes both sin and the evil ones through His acts of salvation. He knew that a redeemed people is infinitely better than a people who could not sin and would not know of sin.
So, I see only one gospel preached, one Eternal Covenant, one plan for all of the redeemed, and one way for all to be saved in Christ Jesus. ...cont.
Probably I didn't make it clear in my previous post that we may be misled to a wrong conclusion about Hebrews 4:2 and it is not our fault. To put it plainly the translation is wrong here.
Lets do some greek first, it will be useful as far as that verse is concerned. You must be a bit patient to follow me.
The phrase in KJV in Heb 4:2 "the gospel was preached" in grk it is "esmen evengelismenoi". The word "evengelismenoi" comes from the verb "evagelizomai" which is in Engl. "to evangelize". It comes from "Evangelion" (Evangelium in Latin) which means "a good message, good news". From "Ev" which in anc gtk means "good" and "angelia" which means "message" (the word "angel" comes from this word. "Angel" in anc grk means "messenger"). The word Evangelion (good message/news, gospel) today means the gospel of Christ. But that was not the case in ancient times. During Jesus' time it meant any good news, ie a message of a victory in a battle against an enemy was an evangelion(gospel), a message from the Emperor was an evangelion(gospel), even the Emperor's birthday was an evangelion(gospel), any good news actually was an evangelion(gospel).
In that context we must examine that verse. The literal/right translation is "the good message/news they were told". It has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ, and this is how this specific verse is translated in all other English translations which I searched.
So what was the good news for the Hebrews when they went out of Egypt? It was the message of a promised land where they could rest and be protected from their enemies. That is why it says that they didn't have faith in those good news. If we assume that Paul talks about Jesus' gospel, it doesn't make sense. Those Hebrews that went out of Egypt didn't believe Christ's gospel? What that gospel had to do with them, especially at the time of escaping from Egypt?
1 Cor 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained ..."
The whole letter of Hebrews is centered on Jesus, the Son of God, the divine Word, who was incarnated into a human nature and fleshly body unique to Himself to fulfill all that was involved to save humanity from the bondage and condemnation of sin decided from pre-creatin in the Everlasting Covenant within the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The book of Hebrews is all about Jesus, our Savior and we as believers of this one gospel are contrasted to the OT Israelites who did not believe this one gospel that Moses preached to them in the wilderness. It is the same gospel preached to Abraham. The good news that God will save them from their sin and corruption and bring them into an everlasting inheritance in the presence of God forever.
As I said before, we do not know all of what God communicated to the patriarchs, prophets, David, and others concerning this gospel. But Hebrews says that it was preached to Israel in the wilderness, and I believe it is the same gospel we preach and believe. Whereas Hebrews chapter 4 is speaking of the rest of God, this does not equate to the gospel referred to in verse 2 as a gospel of rest-the physical land of Canaan for Israel and the heavenly Jerusalem for us. The result of hearing the gospel of Jesus and believing it is the reception of forgiveness of sins, and an inheritance kept for us in heaven.
Giannis, thank you for explaining your thoughts to me. I do appreciate your input. I just do not concur with your analysis of this verse in Hebrews Chapter 4.
Cont..
Same gospel, yet in an embryo state of types & shadows, its blessing were outward, worldly & only cleansed to the purifying of the flesh, was a tutor to led us to Christ who's Blood cleanses the conscience from dead works " sin; meaning the author of it " by His Spirit of Grace & Truth in the inward parts.
The OT gospel of the letter commanded, but could not empower, thus the history of Israel never continuing steadfast & faithful to the end. Which is a repeated exhortation in Hebrews to us & them as our example of what not to do.
Yet, God in Hebrews 11 gives us Light of the true & living faith, that comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself. We must put a separation from a faith that comes from the letter & the living faith that comes from the Spirit, letter kills, Spirit brings us into the very Life of God, becoming partakers of the Divine Nature & delivers us from the corruption of our fleshly birth.
With the NT gospel of Grace, inwardly, God promise Holy Spirit provides the power for the new birth John 3:6 its blessing are inward, heavenly, spiritual, in truth "Christ" the Substance of all things. Who in the fullest of time was made a life quickening Spirit, for our sake
Concerning the rest of Chapter 4 its has to do with obedience to the gospel under the 2 covenants, it they would have obey, their was a certain measure of rest that OT gospel provided, otherwise, they could not have been condemned for not entering into it & the same goes for us, the question is, who will truly enter?
Our rest is in Christ, the Substance, who provides all for us, in causing us to will & do of His good pleasure by the promise
Holy Spirit, to those that believe, believing & obeying are synonym, we enter into His works that were finished from the foundation of the world Ephesians 2:10 provided we obey Him, thus He becomes the Author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him.
NT the birth.
Deuteronomy 30:14-16 The law of Moses, the administration of the letter, OT gospel; outward
Romans 10:8 The Word of Faith, the administration of the Spirit, NT gospel inward
Hebrews 8:6-9
I do not equate the gospel preached to the Israelites mentioned in Hebrews 4:2 with the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is not the gospel at all. It is the Law that brings us condemnation because no one but Christ could keep it fully.
It seems like you have misunderstood what I posted.
Deuternomy 4:6-9
Luke 1:6 Philippians 3:6
to use your own tools of understanding
blameless!
, ( to blame), blameless, deserving no censure, free from fault or defect: Luke 1:6; Philippians 2:15; Philippians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Hebrews 8:7 (in which nothing is lacking); in the Sept. equivalent to , Job 1:1, 8 etc
Do you think, that perhaps you could be blinded here?
We are only "blameless" if Christ has paid for our sins and we have become Born Again. Then the Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we no longer stand guilty before the Law of God. No saved person will ever become "blameless" or "faultless" while living in their fleshly body.
When we become Born Again, God does give us a New Resurrected Soul which, in itself, cannot sin. But that Soul still resides in a Body that has not been "saved" and still lusts after sin. And so, while every True Believer will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God and will continue to Grow in Grace, they will never attain a state of Sinless Perfection in regard to keeping the Law of God. Hence the Apostle Paul's statement "the good that I would I do not; but the evil that I would not, that I do."
At the Last Day when all True Believers will be Resurrected / Raptured, they will receive their Resurrected Spiritual Bodies. At that time every True Believer will become Sinless in their whole personality and will live and reign with Christ in that state throughout Eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth.
From reading this and some of your other comments, you seem to have an incorrect understanding regarding the Nature of Salvation. I do pray that God might lead us both into Truth as we search the scriptures.
But thank you for you comment. And may the LORD richly bless you.
I desire to be submissive, & remain teachable, let take a look at one of your statement of belief.
You spoke to Ronald, & previously stating this many time as I recall
We get our understanding of the Bible from the Bible itself. The Bible alone and its entirety is the Word of God and must be our only Authority.
Ok, this is your faith, not mind, you know where I STAND ON THIS ISSUE, saying that Luke 1:6 they were not blameless. When the Scripture of Truth says plainly "walking in all the commandments & ordinances of the Lord blameless". along with the rest of the Scriptures that I've quoted concerning this, even giving you concordance reference which you use to understand the words of God. David, you don't even believe your own faith & your calling God a liar & you expect me to give heed to counsel such as this?
I could go on refuting you soundly with the Scriptures & sound reasoning, but considering our past conversations, what would be the purpose?
Souls are at stake here, whom Jesus suffer & paid the ultimate price for & God will judge His people Ecclesiastes 5:2,3
David,,,,,,, as Keith Green song says, Your heart is hard (& is hardening ) & your prayers are cold, so where will you go from here?
In love & truth, your Friend
Frankie J
I did not respond to your posts to me because I don't think it would be very fruitful.
But to your post to David I will respond on the subject of how you evaluated his heart as being hard. For one, this is not true of David, and secondly, you cannot possibly be a judge as to the secret condition of the heart before God. Even though you and David disagree on some matters does not warrant such a harsh eval of David. Please consider repenting of judging him so.
According to
Luke 6:45 you can !
What David has stated directly contradicts God's words, denies the Truth, makes God a liar. it's dishonor God, insults His Person & slanders His integrity. I recall you speaking somewhat of this to Spencer, What about our God
You don't call this hardness of heart? Speaking such things before a holy & pure God, as this is what God means, interpreting God's words, When God has given us Light & has not left us in the dark in such matters, 2Cor 2:10-13
Isaiah 1:27
Gigi, in truth, what I spoken is a token, a extension of God grace, mercy & love Him
Grace reveal God's judgments upon all ungodliness & righteousness that leads us to godliness, convicting of one & teaching the other.
John 16:8
Psalms 89:14 & if he would receive it as such, he would see God's face in repentance, not to be repented of.
In love for his eternal welfare & his calling of God in this life, I've waited on the Lord for instructions & so I spoke, as of now, I'm clear of this man's blood Acts 18:6 & if I'm clear in my conscience before God, no mortal can condemn me for it, & if not
Concerning our conversation continuing as being unfruitful, that will depend on our love for the Truth,
I know where I stand.
in love & truth
[Comment Removed]
An example in Acts 7:38, "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us". Here is a classic example of how a word, with the same spelling can have another meaning (known as 'homonyms'). E.g. in English (current; ring; spring; etc. are such examples). And I understand, the same in Hebrew & Greek (Giannis/Jesse can enlighten us on this). So, if we come to Acts 7:38 with a firm belief that Luke is speaking of the Church we know today as also applying to Moses' day, then we would greatly err. Luke (in v37), was clearly referring to Deuteronomy 18:15, when Moses spoke to the people, but Luke says, "this is he (Moses), that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in mount Sina...". So what is this 'church' comprised of? Can we assume that it must also be the same Church as we have today since 'Israel was saved as well by virtue of Christ's Sacrifice from the Earth's foundation', or, is the 'church' an homonym having another meaning? In Greek, 'ekklesia' is the word for 'church', however, it can also apply to an assembly or gathering of people. And when Luke refers this to the Hebrew rendering, 'qahal', we find that it isn't the Church we know of today, but indeed a 'gathering of God's people, Israel' ( Judges 21:8, 'assembly'; 1 Chronicles 29:1, 'congregation'). So maybe the word 'Gospel' needs similar treatment.
In grk those words are called synonyms. They are different words with the same meaning. ie church(ekklesia), synagogue(synagoge), congregation(synaxis), they mean the same, a gathering. The anc grks used them to express the same thing. Later, the church was used for the christian congregation and synagogue for the Jewish one. Today in some churches, the word church means the building where christians gather.
Now as I said to GiGi the respective word for gospel in grk (evangelion) actually means good message/news (in ancient greek). Any good message, not only the good news of salvation. The grk for gospel (evangelion) is a very ancient word. It first appears in Homer's poem, the "Iliad" in the 8th centuary BC, for the good message of a victory in a battle, also for the price given to him who brings the good news, or even the sacrifice that was offered to Gods for their support in a victory. In Roman times evangelion(gospel) was any good news from or about the Emperor. So it was not used just for Jesus' gospel. And with this meaning we should apply it in Heb 4:2. If we look it up in other Eng. translations, we find out that all of them translate it more or less as "good news spoken", I can not figure out why the KJV translaters prefered the phrase "gospel preached". Maybe there was no difference at that time. Maybe they really thought that it was Christ's gospel that was spoken to Hebrews, although the context of that chapter does not give that impression.
To the puzzle as to "why the KJV translators preferred gospel preached", my suspicion is that they, as you've pointed out, understood that the Gospel was indeed the 'good news'. But when we (post-Cross) had the Gospel preached to us, it clearly was the Good News of Christ's redemptive Work. But the Gospel preached unto them was also wonderful news, but to them it was the news of their future rest (first temporarily in Canaan, & then with the Lord forever).
So why did that Gospel not profit them? The verse states that it was because of a lack of faith. So, though the word 'Gospel' (good news) might be common in both thoughts, also the word 'Faith' is common as well; the former that they must have faith in what God had promised them in assuring them of a future Rest - and for us, that we must have faith in what God has promised us in Christ Jesus for salvation & rest.
The problem that arises when using the word 'Gospel' in this verse, is that if one believes that OT Israel also received the same Gospel as we have been given, then of course, they too must get saved as we do. But I simply do not see such a promise & provision given to them, and I don't think the KJV translators anticipated that confusion could arise later by their using the word 'Gospel', which was an apt word, though maybe perplexing to some today.
The NIV also uses the term gospel in Heb. 4:2.
I quote Heb 4:2 from the NIV, ."1.Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2. For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. "
GiGi, also all the grk Bibles I have read so far agree on that matter that the message to the Hebrews was for their entrance to the promised land.
If we wish to know whether the Hebrews at that time did actually know about Christ's sacrifice, we can look at Ephesians 3:4-6, "4.Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
Why does Paul call God's plan a mystery for the people in OT? Because simply they didn't know about it.
Also please read 1 Cor 2:7, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"
GiGi, the Hebrews were expecting Christ (Messiah) as a king who would free them from their enemies and make them a nation which would rule over all other nations. They never expected Him as a man who would sacrifice Himself for the salvation of all nations, showing this way that they had never known God's mysterious plan. This is how I understand it and if I am wrong let God lead us.
GBU
Thanks for your reply. My NIV says gospel, not good news, so perhaps you have a different edition. But I know that gospel and good news mean the same thing.
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