He's going to restore them right here on earth and fulfil the promises to Abraham.
Jeremiah 23:5-6.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice IN THE EARTH.
In his days JUDAH SHALL BE SAVED, AND ISRAEL SHALL DWELL SAFELY: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
And God wants the world to see it!!
Jeremiah 31:10.
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
He does this for his name sake!
Ezekiel 36:22-27.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land... ( This will be done on earth! There's no heathens in heaven! )
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mark 4:10-12 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
When God uses the term "Israel" or "Judah" or "Jerusalem" He can be talking about the corporate body(National Israel or the New Testament Church) or ALL True Believers (the Elect of God). When talking about Salvation and the Gospel it is usually the latter; this is the case in Jeremiah as in many other parts of the Bible.
Furthermore, God is revealing truth in our Day that was hidden until we are near the end. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it can be read like any other book to understand truth. We must use the principles that God establishes in the Bible to interpret Scripture. And then it is only God Himself that opens our spiritual understanding as we compare Scripture with Scripture applying those principles.
Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Thanks for responding, it's been a busy week, sorry for such a late response.
Part 1.
Acts 7:35-38 emphasis is on Moses not the Church. besides this gathering/church is the Nation Israel, Not Christ church "that he would later build mentioned in Matthew 16:18.
Christ have not been crucified yet, so the church couldn't have already been built.
The church was not built on the sacrifices of goats and calves, nor would it be built while the first tabernacle stood.
Church definition.
a calling out that is (concretely) a popular meeting especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both
As you mentioned, In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says upon this rock he will build HIS CHURCH.
So, this rock that Jesus mentions in which he will build his Church, is a rock of offence and a stumbling block to the Jews, so this gathering "The Church " is not the gathering in the wilderness.
GIGI
Galatians 3:29. Is not talking about any promises back to the land here on earth. It's not a Kingdom verse at all. It's about a contrast between Salvation by faith and the works of the Law. That's not a land promises!
Theme; Galatians 3:1-2.
Vs 14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Also, Hebrews 11 is a chapter about faith!
The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven "After" The Millennium kingdom here on Earth. Revelation 21:1-2.
Revelation 20:7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
I must also add that I believe Israel ceased to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom on earth at the Cross. And the New Testament Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
And I believe that we are currently living in the Great Tribulation period which will end when Christ returns to complete His Salvation and Judgement Program with the Resurrection and Rapture and creation of New Heavens and New Earth.
I must also add that I believe Israel ceased to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom on earth at the Cross. And the New Testament Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
And then you sate in the next paragraph;
And I believe that we are currently living in the Great Tribulation period which will end when Christ returns to complete His Salvation and Judgement Program with the Resurrection and Rapture and creation of New Heavens and New Earth.
David, how can we be "currently living in the Great Tribulation period which will end when Christ returns to complete His Salvation and Judgement Program with the Resurrection and Rapture and creation of New Heavens and New Earth.
And yet "the New Testament Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation?
This is confusing David! If the Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel (at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.) and we are currently living in the Great Tribulation period, then the New Testament Church has already ceased to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel.
I do not agree with your definition of the "Church" nor your definition of the "rock".
God speaks of the Church and Israel both in a corporate sense (God's organizational representation of His Kingdom on this earth) and in a Spiritual or Eternal sense (All True Believers throughout history). And we must look at both the immediate context and the context of the entire Bible to determine which is in view. Sometimes it can be both.
The "rock" is Christ Himself. It is not what you describe.
What we are discussing really boils down to our view of the Bible itself. Is the Bible truly the Word of God where God is the ONE AND ONLY AUTHOR of the ENTIRE Bible and every word, every phrase in the Bible is from the Mouth of God Himself. Or is it a collection of writings by Men inspired by God that merely "contains" the Word of God.
If it is the former, which indeed it is, and not the latter then the Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must compare scripture with scripture throughout the ENTIRE Bible to come to any Truth using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible. And this includes the principle that "Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not".
Furthermore, we read in Rev13:8 that Christ was "the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the World." So the efficacy of Christ's payment for the sins of His Elect (the Eternal Church) extends throughout time.
There is one and only one Judgment and Salvation Program for Mankind throughout time. And that Program, the Gospel, is circumscribed by the Bible Alone and in its Entirety.
David, I didn't give you my definition of Church. I gave you the Strongs definition of Church.
ekklsia
Pronunciation: ek-klay-see'-ah
Definition: From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out that is (concretely) a popular meeting especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly church.
Christ said upon this rock he will build "HIS" Church. It's His calling out or Gathering, It's not by Church membership. It's the Holyspirit the puts the true believers in the body of Christ, "By faith.
We will have to agree to disagree on the Church issue.
David, Concerning the rock.
You said.
The "rock" is Christ Himself. It is not what I describe.
Yes, the rock is Christ! Thats exactly what I described!
David Israel stumbled at that rock, this was not Christ church in the wilderness.
Isaiah 8:14. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Acts 4:10-11. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Study these verses also.
Matthew 21:33-43
1 Peter 2:6-9.
Romans 9:31-33.
See Part 2
Davtid you have said over and over again
"There is one and only one Judgment and Salvation Program for Mankind throughout time. And that Program, the Gospel, is circumscribed by the Bible Alone and in its Entirety.
Who's debating that?
I agree and been saying that exclusively since I have been on this site!
However, I don't even recall THAT being a part of this conversation!
For now I am setting aside the Salvation issue. I'm highlighting one's method of interpreting the bible. and what goes on After the rapture of the Church whether pre-trib or Post-trib or whatever.
Do one believe in a Millennium or not? If so, give your chronological chart!
David, I've been working on something before you entered the site.
Examining our Hermeneutics. Do we take scripture seriously or reasonably literal, figuratively, allegorically or what?
I'm using the time and location of the Millenium as the test.
Does your belief shape your theology or does your theology shape your belief on this topic?
I entered this discussion talking about the Millenium, God promises to Israel, better yet to Abraham.
You said those promises are parables. Well obviously, I would say they are not, then you would say they are, and we would go on and on and on.
David 5/6 of the bible is about Israel so when you declare that all that is said about them is a parable then we have no scripture to hinge a debate on.
Parables is given to us to know.
Can you please give your take on Zechariah chapters 12 thru 14.
If they are Parables, please explain them.
How does those scriptures apply to the Church since it has taken over the promises to Israel?
You stated, "The promise of the physical land to Abraham and the Israelites was a shadow pointing to the heavenly land of promise, the New heavens and new earth.
The Kingdom here on earth is ushered in after the tribulation. It's an everlasting Kingdom with Satan being chained 1000 years, After Satan is released there will be a final rebellion and the inhabitants/Earth dwellers will war against God!
Gigi, if the New heavens and new earth is the Millenium, Are you saying that war is in heaven? The new Jerusalem doesn't come down until after Judgment, and then a new heaven and new earth!
It's has been a lot of jumping around on this topic by you.
I've seen several view changes on this topic, from the kingdom is in heaven, The kingdom is on earth, It's in your heart ect.
David.
Let's go over my post you replied to, Here's the context: Me- He's going to restore them right here on earth and fulfil the promises to Abraham.
Jeremiah 23:5-6.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice IN THE EARTH.
Jeremiah 31:10
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. (Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off)
HE WANTS THE NATIONS TO SEE IT AND DECLARE IT AFAR OFF! THAT CAN ONLY BE DONE HERE ON EARTH.
The basis of your reply.
God speaks in Parables.
When God uses the term "Israel" or "Judah" or "Jerusalem" He can be talking about the corporate body (National Israel or the New Testament Church) or ALL True Believers (the Elect of God.
David when God is talking about bring a people back to their own Land, he's talking about a people that had one and was removed out of it.
Hello S. Spencer, I did not say that the New heavens and earth are the millennium. I don't believe that. I believe that time of the new heavens and new earth are for eternity
I stand by what I posted to David in this thread. I continue to read and study what is said in Scripture on the topic of the seed of Abraham and the promises to him. I am learning more and more as time goes on. I can see that you are very firmly decided on your viewpoint. I am not at that point yet because I am still seeking answers.
One is heirs of the promises of salvation by faith. Galatians 3:1-16.
The other is a geographic Land here on Earth;
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. Jeremiah 23:5-8.
The Israel of God.
Galatians 6:12-16.
Here is the context in verse 12) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
These were the judaizers, who wanted "to make a fair shew in the flesh" they were checking on the Galatians to constrain them to be circumcised.
We have two groups in play here within the body of Christ.
1) Messianic Jews/Israel is the circumcision, The Israel of God mentioned in verse 16.
2) The Gentiles is the uncircumcision and the "them" mentioned in verse 16,
It reads; "..peace be on them, and mercy, (AND) upon the Israel of God.
The remnant of believing Israel, "according to the election of grace" within the nation of Israel ( Rom. 9:6; 11:5), is recognized as the true "spiritual Israel"
It would have been strange for the apostle Paul, the Jewish believer who wrote Galatians, to refer to Gentile Christians as Israel.
if God is speaking in parables when he is mentioning Israel and Jerusalem brought back to the land, and it is given to us to know the parables,
Can you or Gigi explain these three chapters of "parables" Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14?
Here are just a few verses.
Zechariah 12:2-3. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zechariah 13:9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Zechariah 14:2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Please take the liberty to read all three chapters.
I find it strange how two people can take entirely different paths or hermeneutic principles and end up at the same place on this topic.
David, you spiritualize the text as most do to get to a desired destination,
Gigi, you hitch a ride there, but don't believe in spiritualizing the text, "I've seen some of your debates with Alex and Earl"
Gigi, Can you explain what route you took to get to your viewpoint? Because if you don't believe in dispensationalism you are going to have to except Alex and Earls way of interpreting scripture to do away with these hundreds of Kingdom verses here on Earth.
I have given some thought to what you posted here and have re-read it,
So I have a few things to say.
First of all, I do not believe it is correct to spiritualize Scripture texts in the way that Earl and Alex do, as I don't think that you do either.
Secondly, I do take most Scripture texts at face value. This means literally in cases where a literal understanding is warranted, and as exemplary when a text is an example or shadow of what Christ would do or bring. This means I take poetic texts as being so, and apocalyptic texts as being figurative and/or symbolic. I consider prophetic texts as referring to something that will happen at a time after the prophecy is given and these prophecies are not always literally fulfilled., but many times are.
Thirdly, I do not make a marked separation between the Old and New Testament as dispensationalists do. The Scriptures are a whole history of God's redemptive work and revelation to mankind. But I do use what the New Testament says to interpret the Old Testament, especially when an author refers to an OT text when explaining certain truths, such Paul in explaining who are the true seed of Israel and heirs to the promises given to Abraham, as in Gal. chapter 3, Eph. chapter 2, and Romans 9-11.
I believe that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament in that in it are the fulfillment of what was promised in the OT through Jesus Christ. I do think that there are still prophecies to be fulfilled, not as the dispensationalists believe, but as far as what the NT authors speak of concerning the events leading up to the consummation of history.
The reason I periodically presents this is not to divide but to show that some of what we are saying is the same thing.
For instance, There is no marked separation between the Old and New Testament as far as what and whom the blood of Christ covers.
The difference is those sacrifices pointed forward to one who would come and be slain for the sins of the whole world.
We look back at it.
I often emphasize that if we set the salvation topic aside and let the scripture give us its chronological order of the end times scenario we all come up to the 7 year tribulation with the last half being the great tribulation. Most agree up to that point.
But then they argue about the rapture.
Well if we set the rapture argument aside for a second and focus on the tribulation period and what chronologically comes after it using Revelation 20:1-4. we come to the Millennium.
Lets get clarity on what is going on here!
After the tribulation period and after the rapture when the salvation issue has been already settled. Shouldn't we be expecting judgment on the inhabitants of the earth?
If the kingdom here on earth has already started, chronologically the first 1000 years of the kingdom Satan is Chained!
Jesus is literally sitting on David's throne ruling with a rod of iron FROM JERUSALEM, and we too rule and reign with Christ upon the earth.
Isaiah 11:1-12.
Isaiah 60:1-12.
There is 100's of these verses of a kingdom here on earth.
This haven't happened yet, Christ is not reigning here on earth in Jerusalem and we're not reigning with him. ( We are pilgrims and sojourners in a foreign land.)
Furthermore, If this happened at the cross, none of the conditions mentioned in the OT concerning the kingdom has been met.
And, the 1000 years have expired!
When did Revelation 20:7-8 occur?
Spiritualizing the scriptures is a must for those who hold certain views.
When discussing this topic we put to much emphasis on Israel. The real emphasis is on Gods Promises!
God made his name great by his dealings with a rebellious Nation, Israel was a picture of all of mankind and the Adamic nature. we would have done no better.
Without the law and Israel failure to bare fruit under the law, we have no way to measure ourselves and this fallen nature of the flesh.
Ezekiel 36:23-24 says
"And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
How do you spiritualize a verse and fulfil it?
It has to be literally do it!
How do God Allegorically be sanctified in Israel before their eyes?
And then take them from among the heathen, and gather them out of all countries, and will bring them into their own land. Allegorically!?
Gigi, you said that's the Church receiving these promises,
If God said I will gather you from all countries and left off right there, you would have a case, "small but at least you would have one"
But God went on to say and put you in your OWN Land!
When did the Church have a Land?
And if this Land is Heaven, how is it the Heathen going to see what is mentioned in the verses above?
The word Mystery in the Greek is used a little different than the way we use the word.
Mystery in the Greek is "musterion" it means something divine that has been unknown up until now but is here now being divinely revealed. "Christ IN US" " The kingdom is at hand" And the kingdom is within you etc.
When God mentions Israel in the OT, he's talking about The Nation of Israel associated with the land.
Are the 12 tribes of Israel a idiom for the Church as well?
Who are those out of the Church is called the remnant of Israel?
When did God scatter them (The Church) among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries?
When God is talking about Israel, he us NEVER talking about the Church. In fact, he makes a great distinction between Israel and the Church. Those who are post cross "Jew and Gentiles make up the Church. However, that union was hid in the OT, Salvation to the Gentiles was mentioned but not as one body. Also, the Church never had geographic land! So how can you bring them back from all nations to the "land" of Israel. The land of Israel belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel. scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries:
Can Jeremiah 16:14-15 be applied to the Church?
"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.
But The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers."
Jeremiah 23:5 makes it clear along with many other verses.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock{the LORD Jesus Christ}I will build my church{the Eternal Church, All True Believers throughout history, the ISRAEL OF GOD}; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mark 4:34 But without a PARABLE spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
The historical events that God records in the Bible are absolutely accurate in their historical account. But God did not record these events in the first instance to give us a history lesson. They are recorded to teach us some aspect of the Gospel which is God's Judgment and Salvation program for Mankind and this World.
And the Book of Jeremiah, like the entire Bible, is exactly that.
Ephesians 3:1-15 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the MYSTERY of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be FELLOWHEIRS{of the New Heavens and New Earth}, and of the SAME BODY{the Israel of God}, and PARTAKERS OF HIS PROMISE in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the FELLOWSHIP, OF THE MYSTERY which from the FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the CHURCH {All True Believers throughout history} the manifold wisdom of God, According to the ETERNAL PURPOSE which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH{All True Believers throughout history}is named,
Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the CHURCH{All True Believers throughout history}by Christ Jesus throughout ALL AGES, world without end{the New Heavens and New Earth}. Amen.
There is ONE SALVATION, ONE INHERITANCE for all True Believers throughout history, i.e. the ISRAEL OF GOD.
The Chruch is the true Israel of God and heirs to God's promises to Abraham
Galatians 3:29 'And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'
Galatians 6"15-16 'For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and the mercy, and upon the Israel of God.'
All who are in Christ through faith, as Abraham was, are the seed that receive the promise of God to Abraham, the inheritance Abraham looked forward to, the heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 11:10.
The promise of the physical land to Abraham and the Israelites was a shadow pointing to the heavenly land of promise, the New heavens and new earth of eternal life with Jesus. The land of Israel was described as flowing with milk and honey, the New Jerusalem is described as flowing with living waters and fruit from the tree of life continually. Both figurative language for the abundant blessings of life in abundance from God for those who are of the faith of Abraham.
Well put and I agree , if we are Christ's ,then we are Abraham's and heirs of the promise . We have been grafted in , there is one nation , the Israel of God , made up of the faithful Jews who were waiting for their Massiah but never got to see him and then those biological Jews who accepted Christ as the promised Massiah along with us Christians . Christ is the Only Way ,we are all one in him .
The following are the fundamental rules of Bible interpretation that the God lays down:
Christ is the author of the Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
...the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
As we approach the end of the world, and Christ's return, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end. This is spoken of as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.
Daniel 12:9-10 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Habakkuk 2:2-3 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation is not found in the Bible. It seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that the whole Bible is written for us today.
The Book of Jeremiah is not a happy Book. It is Judgment Judgment Judgment; just like many of the Old Testament prophetic books. It is not a Book that we like to spend much time in; and as a result most Christians, most Bible teaches do not.
The setting of Jeremiah is the rebellion of National Israel and God's Judgment upon them for their rebellion. But this Book is much much more than that. And what I am going to say is going to be disturbing to many and contradictory to much of what I read in the comments on this site.
The Book of Jeremiah is today's Newspaper. While in the setting of National Israel, it is also very much about the churches and congregations of our Day and, therefore, about God's Judgment that has come upon the churches and congregations for a similar rebellion because the Bible has lost its Ultimate Authority and because they have developed doctrines and practices that, while pleasing to men, are contrary in many ways to the commandments and teachings of God and the True Gospel of the Bible.
I believe that we are living in that period of history which God describes in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Where passages like 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2 are very definitely in play. And that God is continuing to save His Elect apart from any church or congregation as the True Gospel is proclaimed by individuals and ministries apart from any church or denomination.
The next Big Event in God's Plan for this World will be the return of Christ on the clouds of glory to Resurrect and Rapture ALL True Believers, destroy Satan and those that have not become saved and this sin-cursed Earth and create New Heavens and a New Earth where those whom Christ has saved will live and reign with Him Eternally.
There is no "future glory for National Israel" nor a "future golden age" on this sin-cursed Earth. But there is a grand and glorious Eternal Future for the "Israel of God".
This is a time to "examine ourselves" 2 Cor 13:5, 2 Pet 1:10.
Yes David , I agree , it's a very distressing book . Poor Jeremiah suffered greatly , chapter 39 is terrifying . Jeremiah would have suffered not just because of what happened to Israel as a nation but on a personal level also , somewhere in there it tells us that one of his daughters was married to Zedekiah , therefore
some of those children that were killed in chapter 39 could well have been Jeremiah's own grandchildren . To me it's the saddest book in Israel's history .
Sorry , meant to say that Zedekiah was Jeremiah's grandson and therefore Zedekiah's children were Jeremiah's great grandchildren , sorry for confusion .
If we look at ( Jer 31:27) The LORD says "that I will sow the house of Israel, and the house of Judah"
Many people mistakenly say all the house of Israel are Jews, they are not. This verse clearly separates the two.
There were 12 sons of Jacob. One was named Judah whose descendants are of the tribe of Judah, these are the Jews.
The word (Israel) in that verse is #3478 in the Hebrew language; it means he will rule (as) God, a symbolic name of Jacob, also typically ((of his posterity)).
(of his posterity) The word posterity means 1) Future generations. 2) All of a persons descendants.
Now if we look at ( Rev. 7:4-8) we see 12,000 being sealed from each of the 12 tribes of the children of (Israel). the word (Israel) in this verse is Greek #2474; it means the adopted name of Jacob, including his descendants. ((his descendants)) are the 12 tribes of the house of Israel.
If we look at (Ester 3:4) "for he had told them that he was a Jew"
The word (Jew) is #3064; it means a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew) or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah)
The Jews are clearly descendants of Judah. They are not the whole house of Israel.
The whole house of Israel are what people consider to be the lost tribes, the tribes that are scattered where God wanted them to be for this generation. The Jews are of the tribe of Judah only!
Hello Jharveys. I'll share very generally on the passage you quoted.
The chapters 30 to 33 in Jeremiah are God's Words to His people (Israel & Judah) giving them His Promise & certain hope for their future restoration back to their lands. Some consider these chapters as applying to their recovery from the Assyrian & Babylonian captivity (in which they were in at the time), but verses such as Jeremiah 30:3,7,10,11 & others seem to indicate that all of Israel will return to their land of promise, & not just the 'few' who came out of the present captivity. The mention of the 'terrible day, none ever like it, even the time of Jacob's trouble, but Israel will come out of it', indicates that there is still salvation & hope for Israel even after going through the coming time of Great Tribulation.
Then chapter 31 continues this theme of restoration for Israel; with verses 1 to 22 concerning the Northern Kingdom (Israel); verses 23 to 26 the Southern Kingdom (Judah); and verses 27 to 40 to both Kingdoms.
So to Jeremiah 31:23-34 (your passage), the message is first to Judah & then God establishes His New Covenant with both houses (from verse 27). To Judah, God tells them that they will know His blessing on Jerusalem (Mt. Zion) where justice & holiness abounds (v23); & the people will thrive in food production (vv24,25). And so to, the New Covenant which still awaits enforcement, vv27-34 and other verses beyond, gives God's Assurance that both man & animals will abound, that He will prosper them & not afflict & destroy them as before, & they will realize that each one is accountable & punishable for their own sins & not blame their fathers (the meaning of verses 29 & 30). That future day, Israel will have God's Laws written upon their hearts (v33), i.e. they will be changed inwardly & not just giving lip-service as previously and all will truly know intimately their God & not a conditional-based Covenant of the old Mosaic Law. Hope that gives you an adequate outline.
I concur with Brother Chris.
God is going to give Israel a heart of flesh.
He's going to restore them right here on earth and fulfil the promises to Abraham.
Jeremiah 23:5-6.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice IN THE EARTH.
In his days JUDAH SHALL BE SAVED, AND ISRAEL SHALL DWELL SAFELY: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
And God wants the world to see it!!
Jeremiah 31:10.
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
He does this for his name sake!
Ezekiel 36:22-27.
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land... ( This will be done on earth! There's no heathens in heaven! )
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God bless.
Mark 4:10-12 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
When God uses the term "Israel" or "Judah" or "Jerusalem" He can be talking about the corporate body(National Israel or the New Testament Church) or ALL True Believers (the Elect of God). When talking about Salvation and the Gospel it is usually the latter; this is the case in Jeremiah as in many other parts of the Bible.
Furthermore, God is revealing truth in our Day that was hidden until we are near the end. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God did not write the Bible in a way that it can be read like any other book to understand truth. We must use the principles that God establishes in the Bible to interpret Scripture. And then it is only God Himself that opens our spiritual understanding as we compare Scripture with Scripture applying those principles.
Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Thanks for responding, it's been a busy week, sorry for such a late response.
Part 1.
Acts 7:35-38 emphasis is on Moses not the Church. besides this gathering/church is the Nation Israel, Not Christ church "that he would later build mentioned in Matthew 16:18.
Christ have not been crucified yet, so the church couldn't have already been built.
The church was not built on the sacrifices of goats and calves, nor would it be built while the first tabernacle stood.
Church definition.
a calling out that is (concretely) a popular meeting especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both
As you mentioned, In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says upon this rock he will build HIS CHURCH.
So, this rock that Jesus mentions in which he will build his Church, is a rock of offence and a stumbling block to the Jews, so this gathering "The Church " is not the gathering in the wilderness.
GIGI
Galatians 3:29. Is not talking about any promises back to the land here on earth. It's not a Kingdom verse at all. It's about a contrast between Salvation by faith and the works of the Law. That's not a land promises!
Theme; Galatians 3:1-2.
Vs 14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Also, Hebrews 11 is a chapter about faith!
The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven "After" The Millennium kingdom here on Earth. Revelation 21:1-2.
Revelation 20:7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
See Part 2.
I must also add that I believe Israel ceased to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom on earth at the Cross. And the New Testament Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
And I believe that we are currently living in the Great Tribulation period which will end when Christ returns to complete His Salvation and Judgement Program with the Resurrection and Rapture and creation of New Heavens and New Earth.
On you second reply.
Quoting you;
I must also add that I believe Israel ceased to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom on earth at the Cross. And the New Testament Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
And then you sate in the next paragraph;
And I believe that we are currently living in the Great Tribulation period which will end when Christ returns to complete His Salvation and Judgement Program with the Resurrection and Rapture and creation of New Heavens and New Earth.
David, how can we be "currently living in the Great Tribulation period which will end when Christ returns to complete His Salvation and Judgement Program with the Resurrection and Rapture and creation of New Heavens and New Earth.
And yet "the New Testament Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel at the beginning of the Great Tribulation?
This is confusing David! If the Church ceases to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel (at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.) and we are currently living in the Great Tribulation period, then the New Testament Church has already ceased to be God's corporate representation of His Kingdom and custodian of the True Gospel.
Can you clear that up?
God bless.
I do not agree with your definition of the "Church" nor your definition of the "rock".
God speaks of the Church and Israel both in a corporate sense (God's organizational representation of His Kingdom on this earth) and in a Spiritual or Eternal sense (All True Believers throughout history). And we must look at both the immediate context and the context of the entire Bible to determine which is in view. Sometimes it can be both.
The "rock" is Christ Himself. It is not what you describe.
What we are discussing really boils down to our view of the Bible itself. Is the Bible truly the Word of God where God is the ONE AND ONLY AUTHOR of the ENTIRE Bible and every word, every phrase in the Bible is from the Mouth of God Himself. Or is it a collection of writings by Men inspired by God that merely "contains" the Word of God.
If it is the former, which indeed it is, and not the latter then the Bible is its own dictionary and its own interpreter. And we must compare scripture with scripture throughout the ENTIRE Bible to come to any Truth using the principles that God lays down for us in the Bible. And this includes the principle that "Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke He not".
Furthermore, we read in Rev13:8 that Christ was "the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the World." So the efficacy of Christ's payment for the sins of His Elect (the Eternal Church) extends throughout time.
There is one and only one Judgment and Salvation Program for Mankind throughout time. And that Program, the Gospel, is circumscribed by the Bible Alone and in its Entirety.
Part 1
David, I didn't give you my definition of Church. I gave you the Strongs definition of Church.
ekklsia
Pronunciation: ek-klay-see'-ah
Definition: From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out that is (concretely) a popular meeting especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly church.
Christ said upon this rock he will build "HIS" Church. It's His calling out or Gathering, It's not by Church membership. It's the Holyspirit the puts the true believers in the body of Christ, "By faith.
We will have to agree to disagree on the Church issue.
David, Concerning the rock.
You said.
The "rock" is Christ Himself. It is not what I describe.
Yes, the rock is Christ! Thats exactly what I described!
David Israel stumbled at that rock, this was not Christ church in the wilderness.
Isaiah 8:14. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Acts 4:10-11. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Study these verses also.
Matthew 21:33-43
1 Peter 2:6-9.
Romans 9:31-33.
See Part 2
Davtid you have said over and over again
"There is one and only one Judgment and Salvation Program for Mankind throughout time. And that Program, the Gospel, is circumscribed by the Bible Alone and in its Entirety.
Who's debating that?
I agree and been saying that exclusively since I have been on this site!
However, I don't even recall THAT being a part of this conversation!
At least not from me.
Part 2.
For now I am setting aside the Salvation issue. I'm highlighting one's method of interpreting the bible. and what goes on After the rapture of the Church whether pre-trib or Post-trib or whatever.
Do one believe in a Millennium or not? If so, give your chronological chart!
David, I've been working on something before you entered the site.
Examining our Hermeneutics. Do we take scripture seriously or reasonably literal, figuratively, allegorically or what?
I'm using the time and location of the Millenium as the test.
Does your belief shape your theology or does your theology shape your belief on this topic?
I entered this discussion talking about the Millenium, God promises to Israel, better yet to Abraham.
You said those promises are parables. Well obviously, I would say they are not, then you would say they are, and we would go on and on and on.
David 5/6 of the bible is about Israel so when you declare that all that is said about them is a parable then we have no scripture to hinge a debate on.
Parables is given to us to know.
Can you please give your take on Zechariah chapters 12 thru 14.
If they are Parables, please explain them.
How does those scriptures apply to the Church since it has taken over the promises to Israel?
Gigi
You stated, "The promise of the physical land to Abraham and the Israelites was a shadow pointing to the heavenly land of promise, the New heavens and new earth.
The Kingdom here on earth is ushered in after the tribulation. It's an everlasting Kingdom with Satan being chained 1000 years, After Satan is released there will be a final rebellion and the inhabitants/Earth dwellers will war against God!
Gigi, if the New heavens and new earth is the Millenium, Are you saying that war is in heaven? The new Jerusalem doesn't come down until after Judgment, and then a new heaven and new earth!
It's has been a lot of jumping around on this topic by you.
I've seen several view changes on this topic, from the kingdom is in heaven, The kingdom is on earth, It's in your heart ect.
David.
Let's go over my post you replied to, Here's the context: Me- He's going to restore them right here on earth and fulfil the promises to Abraham.
Jeremiah 23:5-6.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice IN THE EARTH.
Jeremiah 31:10
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. (Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off)
HE WANTS THE NATIONS TO SEE IT AND DECLARE IT AFAR OFF! THAT CAN ONLY BE DONE HERE ON EARTH.
The basis of your reply.
God speaks in Parables.
When God uses the term "Israel" or "Judah" or "Jerusalem" He can be talking about the corporate body (National Israel or the New Testament Church) or ALL True Believers (the Elect of God.
David when God is talking about bring a people back to their own Land, he's talking about a people that had one and was removed out of it.
See Part 3.
I stand by what I posted to David in this thread. I continue to read and study what is said in Scripture on the topic of the seed of Abraham and the promises to him. I am learning more and more as time goes on. I can see that you are very firmly decided on your viewpoint. I am not at that point yet because I am still seeking answers.
Part 3.
We are dealing with two separate issues here.
One is heirs of the promises of salvation by faith. Galatians 3:1-16.
The other is a geographic Land here on Earth;
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. Jeremiah 23:5-8.
The Israel of God.
Galatians 6:12-16.
Here is the context in verse 12) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
These were the judaizers, who wanted "to make a fair shew in the flesh" they were checking on the Galatians to constrain them to be circumcised.
We have two groups in play here within the body of Christ.
1) Messianic Jews/Israel is the circumcision, The Israel of God mentioned in verse 16.
2) The Gentiles is the uncircumcision and the "them" mentioned in verse 16,
It reads; "..peace be on them, and mercy, (AND) upon the Israel of God.
The remnant of believing Israel, "according to the election of grace" within the nation of Israel ( Rom. 9:6; 11:5), is recognized as the true "spiritual Israel"
It would have been strange for the apostle Paul, the Jewish believer who wrote Galatians, to refer to Gentile Christians as Israel.
See Part 4.
Part 4.
David
if God is speaking in parables when he is mentioning Israel and Jerusalem brought back to the land, and it is given to us to know the parables,
Can you or Gigi explain these three chapters of "parables" Zechariah chapters 12, 13, and 14?
Here are just a few verses.
Zechariah 12:2-3. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zechariah 13:9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Zechariah 14:2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Please take the liberty to read all three chapters.
I find it strange how two people can take entirely different paths or hermeneutic principles and end up at the same place on this topic.
David, you spiritualize the text as most do to get to a desired destination,
Gigi, you hitch a ride there, but don't believe in spiritualizing the text, "I've seen some of your debates with Alex and Earl"
Gigi, Can you explain what route you took to get to your viewpoint? Because if you don't believe in dispensationalism you are going to have to except Alex and Earls way of interpreting scripture to do away with these hundreds of Kingdom verses here on Earth.
See Part 5.
I have given some thought to what you posted here and have re-read it,
So I have a few things to say.
First of all, I do not believe it is correct to spiritualize Scripture texts in the way that Earl and Alex do, as I don't think that you do either.
Secondly, I do take most Scripture texts at face value. This means literally in cases where a literal understanding is warranted, and as exemplary when a text is an example or shadow of what Christ would do or bring. This means I take poetic texts as being so, and apocalyptic texts as being figurative and/or symbolic. I consider prophetic texts as referring to something that will happen at a time after the prophecy is given and these prophecies are not always literally fulfilled., but many times are.
Thirdly, I do not make a marked separation between the Old and New Testament as dispensationalists do. The Scriptures are a whole history of God's redemptive work and revelation to mankind. But I do use what the New Testament says to interpret the Old Testament, especially when an author refers to an OT text when explaining certain truths, such Paul in explaining who are the true seed of Israel and heirs to the promises given to Abraham, as in Gal. chapter 3, Eph. chapter 2, and Romans 9-11.
I believe that the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament in that in it are the fulfillment of what was promised in the OT through Jesus Christ. I do think that there are still prophecies to be fulfilled, not as the dispensationalists believe, but as far as what the NT authors speak of concerning the events leading up to the consummation of history.
Hope this helps to clarify my approach for you.
Thanks again for replying.
The reason I periodically presents this is not to divide but to show that some of what we are saying is the same thing.
For instance, There is no marked separation between the Old and New Testament as far as what and whom the blood of Christ covers.
The difference is those sacrifices pointed forward to one who would come and be slain for the sins of the whole world.
We look back at it.
I often emphasize that if we set the salvation topic aside and let the scripture give us its chronological order of the end times scenario we all come up to the 7 year tribulation with the last half being the great tribulation. Most agree up to that point.
But then they argue about the rapture.
Well if we set the rapture argument aside for a second and focus on the tribulation period and what chronologically comes after it using Revelation 20:1-4. we come to the Millennium.
Lets get clarity on what is going on here!
After the tribulation period and after the rapture when the salvation issue has been already settled. Shouldn't we be expecting judgment on the inhabitants of the earth?
If the kingdom here on earth has already started, chronologically the first 1000 years of the kingdom Satan is Chained!
Jesus is literally sitting on David's throne ruling with a rod of iron FROM JERUSALEM, and we too rule and reign with Christ upon the earth.
Isaiah 11:1-12.
Isaiah 60:1-12.
There is 100's of these verses of a kingdom here on earth.
This haven't happened yet, Christ is not reigning here on earth in Jerusalem and we're not reigning with him. ( We are pilgrims and sojourners in a foreign land.)
Furthermore, If this happened at the cross, none of the conditions mentioned in the OT concerning the kingdom has been met.
And, the 1000 years have expired!
When did Revelation 20:7-8 occur?
Spiritualizing the scriptures is a must for those who hold certain views.
But yet it doesn't solve these problems.
More another day.
GB.
Thanks for replying.
I will get back to you in a few hours.
God bless you.
Part 5.
When discussing this topic we put to much emphasis on Israel. The real emphasis is on Gods Promises!
God made his name great by his dealings with a rebellious Nation, Israel was a picture of all of mankind and the Adamic nature. we would have done no better.
Without the law and Israel failure to bare fruit under the law, we have no way to measure ourselves and this fallen nature of the flesh.
Ezekiel 36:23-24 says
"And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
How do you spiritualize a verse and fulfil it?
It has to be literally do it!
How do God Allegorically be sanctified in Israel before their eyes?
And then take them from among the heathen, and gather them out of all countries, and will bring them into their own land. Allegorically!?
Gigi, you said that's the Church receiving these promises,
If God said I will gather you from all countries and left off right there, you would have a case, "small but at least you would have one"
But God went on to say and put you in your OWN Land!
When did the Church have a Land?
And if this Land is Heaven, how is it the Heathen going to see what is mentioned in the verses above?
God bless you both and Goodnight.
Ephesians 3:3-4.
The word Mystery in the Greek is used a little different than the way we use the word.
Mystery in the Greek is "musterion" it means something divine that has been unknown up until now but is here now being divinely revealed. "Christ IN US" " The kingdom is at hand" And the kingdom is within you etc.
When God mentions Israel in the OT, he's talking about The Nation of Israel associated with the land.
Are the 12 tribes of Israel a idiom for the Church as well?
Who are those out of the Church is called the remnant of Israel?
When did God scatter them (The Church) among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries?
When God is talking about Israel, he us NEVER talking about the Church. In fact, he makes a great distinction between Israel and the Church. Those who are post cross "Jew and Gentiles make up the Church. However, that union was hid in the OT, Salvation to the Gentiles was mentioned but not as one body. Also, the Church never had geographic land! So how can you bring them back from all nations to the "land" of Israel. The land of Israel belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel. scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries:
Can Jeremiah 16:14-15 be applied to the Church?
"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.
But The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers."
Jeremiah 23:5 makes it clear along with many other verses.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
God bless.
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock{the LORD Jesus Christ}I will build my church{the Eternal Church, All True Believers throughout history, the ISRAEL OF GOD}; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mark 4:34 But without a PARABLE spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
The historical events that God records in the Bible are absolutely accurate in their historical account. But God did not record these events in the first instance to give us a history lesson. They are recorded to teach us some aspect of the Gospel which is God's Judgment and Salvation program for Mankind and this World.
And the Book of Jeremiah, like the entire Bible, is exactly that.
Thanks for your responses.
I'm working so I will get back to you at my earliest convenience.
God bless.
Ephesians 3:1-15 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the MYSTERY of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be FELLOWHEIRS{of the New Heavens and New Earth}, and of the SAME BODY{the Israel of God}, and PARTAKERS OF HIS PROMISE in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the FELLOWSHIP, OF THE MYSTERY which from the FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the CHURCH {All True Believers throughout history} the manifold wisdom of God, According to the ETERNAL PURPOSE which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH{All True Believers throughout history}is named,
Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the CHURCH{All True Believers throughout history}by Christ Jesus throughout ALL AGES, world without end{the New Heavens and New Earth}. Amen.
There is ONE SALVATION, ONE INHERITANCE for all True Believers throughout history, i.e. the ISRAEL OF GOD.
The Chruch is the true Israel of God and heirs to God's promises to Abraham
Galatians 3:29 'And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'
Galatians 6"15-16 'For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and the mercy, and upon the Israel of God.'
All who are in Christ through faith, as Abraham was, are the seed that receive the promise of God to Abraham, the inheritance Abraham looked forward to, the heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 11:10.
The promise of the physical land to Abraham and the Israelites was a shadow pointing to the heavenly land of promise, the New heavens and new earth of eternal life with Jesus. The land of Israel was described as flowing with milk and honey, the New Jerusalem is described as flowing with living waters and fruit from the tree of life continually. Both figurative language for the abundant blessings of life in abundance from God for those who are of the faith of Abraham.
If you feel inspired and have time, would you mind expounding on parables and Mark 4:10-12?
More specifically:
What is perception according to you and or scripture?
What is the purpose or meaning of "not understand" in verse 12?
Will you provide an example/s of a principle/s that God established to interpret scripture?
Peace
The following are the fundamental rules of Bible interpretation that the God lays down:
Christ is the author of the Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
...the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
As we approach the end of the world, and Christ's return, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end. This is spoken of as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.
Daniel 12:9-10 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Habakkuk 2:2-3 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation is not found in the Bible. It seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that the whole Bible is written for us today.
The Book of Jeremiah is not a happy Book. It is Judgment Judgment Judgment; just like many of the Old Testament prophetic books. It is not a Book that we like to spend much time in; and as a result most Christians, most Bible teaches do not.
The setting of Jeremiah is the rebellion of National Israel and God's Judgment upon them for their rebellion. But this Book is much much more than that. And what I am going to say is going to be disturbing to many and contradictory to much of what I read in the comments on this site.
The Book of Jeremiah is today's Newspaper. While in the setting of National Israel, it is also very much about the churches and congregations of our Day and, therefore, about God's Judgment that has come upon the churches and congregations for a similar rebellion because the Bible has lost its Ultimate Authority and because they have developed doctrines and practices that, while pleasing to men, are contrary in many ways to the commandments and teachings of God and the True Gospel of the Bible.
I believe that we are living in that period of history which God describes in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Where passages like 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2 are very definitely in play. And that God is continuing to save His Elect apart from any church or congregation as the True Gospel is proclaimed by individuals and ministries apart from any church or denomination.
The next Big Event in God's Plan for this World will be the return of Christ on the clouds of glory to Resurrect and Rapture ALL True Believers, destroy Satan and those that have not become saved and this sin-cursed Earth and create New Heavens and a New Earth where those whom Christ has saved will live and reign with Him Eternally.
There is no "future glory for National Israel" nor a "future golden age" on this sin-cursed Earth. But there is a grand and glorious Eternal Future for the "Israel of God".
This is a time to "examine ourselves" 2 Cor 13:5, 2 Pet 1:10.
some of those children that were killed in chapter 39 could well have been Jeremiah's own grandchildren . To me it's the saddest book in Israel's history .
If we look at ( Jer 31:27) The LORD says "that I will sow the house of Israel, and the house of Judah"
Many people mistakenly say all the house of Israel are Jews, they are not. This verse clearly separates the two.
There were 12 sons of Jacob. One was named Judah whose descendants are of the tribe of Judah, these are the Jews.
The word (Israel) in that verse is #3478 in the Hebrew language; it means he will rule (as) God, a symbolic name of Jacob, also typically ((of his posterity)).
(of his posterity) The word posterity means 1) Future generations. 2) All of a persons descendants.
Now if we look at ( Rev. 7:4-8) we see 12,000 being sealed from each of the 12 tribes of the children of (Israel). the word (Israel) in this verse is Greek #2474; it means the adopted name of Jacob, including his descendants. ((his descendants)) are the 12 tribes of the house of Israel.
If we look at (Ester 3:4) "for he had told them that he was a Jew"
The word (Jew) is #3064; it means a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew) or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah)
The Jews are clearly descendants of Judah. They are not the whole house of Israel.
The whole house of Israel are what people consider to be the lost tribes, the tribes that are scattered where God wanted them to be for this generation. The Jews are of the tribe of Judah only!
I hope this is helpful for you and others.
Blessings to you.
The chapters 30 to 33 in Jeremiah are God's Words to His people (Israel & Judah) giving them His Promise & certain hope for their future restoration back to their lands. Some consider these chapters as applying to their recovery from the Assyrian & Babylonian captivity (in which they were in at the time), but verses such as Jeremiah 30:3,7,10,11 & others seem to indicate that all of Israel will return to their land of promise, & not just the 'few' who came out of the present captivity. The mention of the 'terrible day, none ever like it, even the time of Jacob's trouble, but Israel will come out of it', indicates that there is still salvation & hope for Israel even after going through the coming time of Great Tribulation.
Then chapter 31 continues this theme of restoration for Israel; with verses 1 to 22 concerning the Northern Kingdom (Israel); verses 23 to 26 the Southern Kingdom (Judah); and verses 27 to 40 to both Kingdoms.
So to Jeremiah 31:23-34 (your passage), the message is first to Judah & then God establishes His New Covenant with both houses (from verse 27). To Judah, God tells them that they will know His blessing on Jerusalem (Mt. Zion) where justice & holiness abounds (v23); & the people will thrive in food production (vv24,25). And so to, the New Covenant which still awaits enforcement, vv27-34 and other verses beyond, gives God's Assurance that both man & animals will abound, that He will prosper them & not afflict & destroy them as before, & they will realize that each one is accountable & punishable for their own sins & not blame their fathers (the meaning of verses 29 & 30). That future day, Israel will have God's Laws written upon their hearts (v33), i.e. they will be changed inwardly & not just giving lip-service as previously and all will truly know intimately their God & not a conditional-based Covenant of the old Mosaic Law. Hope that gives you an adequate outline.
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