Bible Discussion Thread Page 2

Thanks Brother Chris.

Very well stated!

God bless

S.Spencer,

As I said in my post to Ronald, I concur with his time chart, so I don't think I need to give a repeat of his and call it "my timechart". I do look forward to reading your thoughts on this.

Very clear post , thank you .

Hey S Spencer,

Thank you, brother, for this discussion. I understand the 7-year tribulation rapture doctrine hinges on the prince in Dan. 9:26 and the he in vs. 27 as being the beast/antichrist at the end times. This is in brief my understanding of the 70th week and what Scripture says to me on this very important subject.

Dan. 9:25 says 69 weeks until the Messiah the Prince. Jesus was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit; the meaning of Messiah is the Anointed One. Vs. 27 "And he shall confirm the covenant" Isaiah 42:6 "with many" Matt. 20:28 Matt. 26:28 Mark 14:24, "for one week:"

Jesus came and was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit and John confirmed this John 1:34 The demons knew who He was Mark 3:11 and Andrew told Simon they have found the Messiah, and Philip told Nathanael, John 1:41,45 Jesus said this Luke 4:17-21.

In Luke 3:1-2 we see the time when John was called by God. If we look at history, Tiberius Ceasar, his 15th year would be 26-27 AD. It is considered Jesus was baptized in late summer or early fall. Jesus attended 3 Passovers and was crucified on the fourth in 30-31 AD. John 2:13, John 5:1 John 6:4 John 19:14.

There is a discussion on John 5:1 whether it is a Passover, but most accept it is. The old manuscripts have "the" in front of the feast leading scholars to conclude that it was probably the Passover feast.

The first Passover would be in 27-28 AD and His crucifixion in 30-31 AD. This would make Jesus's ministry 3.5 years, halfway through the 70th week.

"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" That is what Jesus's death did. Heb. 10 and when the judgment came in 70 AD the physical act of sacrificing ceased caused by their rejection of Him and crucifying Him.

See part 2

Ronald.

Part 2.

In Daniel 9:25. the Messiah the Prince should be translated Messiah the King. That is how its read in Hebrew.

Johns' baptism had nothing to do with him being king.

Here are other issues I have with your timeline.

Daniel 9:25 is the end of the 69th week.

According to you guys timeline, these are consecutive weeks.

So according to that,

Here is the beginning of the seventh week- Daniel 9:26. (And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off!)

Can you see right away there is an issue with that timeline you gave?

You guys put the beginning of the 70th week in your timeline at the baptism.

If you all want to be consistent according to this belief Daniel's 70 weeks is consecutive, according to vs 26 the 70th week starts off with the Messiah being cut off. See Daniel 9:26.

The end of the 69th week is the Messiah presented as king.

If Daniels 70th week Prophecy is consecutive the 70th week starts off with him cut off. (According to the way some have it)

Let's address Part 2 of you reply.

You said Stephen's death as the first Martyr 34-35 AD is 3.5 years after Jesus's crucifixion this would end the 70th week.

Let's go back to Daniel 9:26-27 and take it as it is written.

IM HIGHLIGHTING KEYS IN THE ORDER PRESENTED FOR LACK OF SPACE.

Daniel 9:26.....(and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...);

So, after the 69th week on into the 70th week we have the Messiah cut off but also the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

(According to anyone that would have these weeks consecutive)

According to your timeline, you have that 38 years later.

If these weeks are consecutive, you have to include this in the 70th week.

However, those 38 years is an interval no matter what view you take.

But you guys don't believe there's an interval at all.

It's getting late, We can continue. perhaps during the week or this weekend.

God bless.

Hi S Spencer,

Part 1

Just to finish up on the Last Week. Sorry, this is so long but I hope you will have all the reasons for my understanding of this very important prophecy. I have learned much.

I know we differ on this and I believe we both respect each other as brothers and the truth is what matters. The word prince in vs 25 is the same as in vs. 26 it is the Hebrew word nagiyd or nagid meaning chief commander, leader, ruler, or prince, but never translated as king, but many times as the commander of a military.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks, 490 years are given for the things that are determined to be accomplished that is the prophecy. 1. To finish the transgression. 2 To make an end of sins. 3 to make reconciliation for iniquity. 4 to bring in everlasting righteousness. 5 To seal up vision and prophecy. 6 To anoint the most holy.

These 6 things were determined upon Daniel's people, the lost sheep of Israel, and the holy city, Jerusalem. Were these things accomplished when Jesus first came, or will they be accomplished after Jesus second coming? These six things are the purpose of the prophecy, Dan. 9:24.

My understanding Jesus accomplished this when He first came. The 70 weeks which is 490 years are given for these 6 things to be accomplished.

1 To finish the transgression. From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law, rebellion. Isaiah 53:5,8 Isaiah 53:11 Hebrews 9:15-18.

Jesus with a perfect life gave up his body to death; he fulfilled the first covenant of law and redeeming of the transgressions under the first covenant of law. He became sin for us, and with his blood made the new covenant being the only mediator of the New Testament that we through faith in Jesus Christ receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Offered first to the house of Israel then offered to the rest of the world.

See part 2

S Spencer on the last week.

Part 2

2 To make an end of sins (Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law). The verb in the Hebrew text translated as "put an end to" can mean "to seal up". The covering of our sins was accomplished on the cross at Calvary. When he said IT IS FINISHED, he provided us with the garments (wedding garments) to cover our sins. Psalm 32:1-2 Matthew 1:21 John 1:29 Romans 8:3 1 Corinthians 15:3 Hebrews 10:8-11 1 John 3:5 Revelation 16:15.

Is there still sin today? Yes. Will there still be sin and death after Jesus's second coming? Yes. Even during the 1000 years, there will be sin and death until all is made new Rev. 21:1-4 but through Jesus, they are covered and sealed, Rev. 16:15

3 To make reconciliation for iniquity (Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement, iniquity is guilt, crookedness, perverseness, that which is not straight or upright, moral distortion, in the dark. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

The word reconcile means to bring back to a former state of harmony Jesus reconciled both Jew and Gentile unto God in one body by the cross and now through Jesus we both Jew and Gentile have access by one Spirit unto the Father no more strangers or foreigners but fellow citizens. Making reconciliation for iniquity concerns our involvement in the work of salvation.

4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. Everlasting, no end, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving-kindness, in conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will, fair and balanced. Isaiah 61:10-11 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 1 Peter 2:24.

See Part 3

S Spencer on the last week.

Part 3.

Jesus by His blood entered once into the holy place not made by hands having obtained eternal redemption everlasting, never to fade, and in Jesus, we have everlasting righteousness and salvation, through faith, given by grace from God, by the blood of the Lamb freely offered for us. To look for everlasting righteousness to be brought in the future is to deny the work of Christ, which he claimed was finished. We have no righteousness apart from Jesus Christ.

5 To seal up vision and prophecy; seal up, affix a seal, a seal in biblical times as today, is used to guarantee security, or indicate ownership, fulfill a vision of God's communication with man, prophecy w-n-, the same word for prophet, the word of God given to us through a prophet. The greatest prediction, which runs through the whole Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23 John 6:27 Mark 1:14-15 Acts 3:18 John 5:36-40 Matthew 11:11-15 Romans 3:21.

All through the New Testament, it shows the fulfillment of the prophets and the law; fulfilled on the cross at Calvary. Gabriel was sent to help Daniel understand the matter, and consider the vision.

6 To anoint the Most Holy. Anoint, the theological meaning of mashach to smear, anoint. The Most Holy qa-da-sm qo-des, most holy, most holy place, Set apart from the rest for a special function. This was done by Jesus after he ascended to heaven before the destruction of the temple made by man. It is the anointing of the holy of holies in the temple not made with hands. Hebrews 8:1-12 Hebrews 9:6-14

Jesus went in once and anointed the Holy of Holies not made with hands. Jesus anointed the Holy of Holies once and made it possible for man through him and the Holy Spirit to enter the most holy and God can dwell in us. When Jesus cried out and said it was finished and gave up the ghost, the veil of the temple rent in half.

See Part 4

S Spencer on the last week.

Part 4

The service in the temple made by hands was over as Jesus told the woman at the well, John 4:21-24. Soon in that generation, it would be physically gone and never be again. The animal sacrifices that never covered sin ended on the cross, the whole Levitical priesthood and sacrificial shadow service, Hebrews 7:11-13. Only the Messiah Himself could legitimately abolish once and forever the system of symbols that pointed forward to the atoning self-sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God.

This was the cause of the sacrifices and oblations to cease in Dan 9:27. This unveils one of the most profound and decisive revelations of the Messiah's mission, the very goal, the things determined by the seventy-weeks prophecy, God's will, the work Jesus was sent to do John 5:36 John 17:54-6 the sixfold goal of Daniel 9:24.

In vs. 26 after 69 weeks the Messiah is cut off, which after means it is in the 70th week. The people of the prince that shall come are the judgment of God not in these 70 weeks. This connection between the coming of the Messiah and the destruction of the city is the crucial message of Daniel 9:26, 27. They had 490 years to be ready and accept their Messiah and the people of the prince that shall come is the outcome of Jerusalem's rejection of her Messiah.

Jesus related the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 to Israel's final refusal to accept Him as her Messiah, Matt. 21:33-44 Matt. 23:37-38; Luke 19:41-44. The abomination Jesus was referring to in Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 was not to the future but to their near future when the Roman army would destroy Jerusalem and the Temple in their generation Luke 21:20-24.

See Part 5

Hi Brother Ronald.

Part 1.

Sorry for such a delay. In Daniel 9:25 "Messiah the Prince"

What I was saying is it actually SAYS Messiah the king.

I didn't mean to say it's translated king from prince.

On Daniel 9:24-25. I agree with you when you say "These 6 things were determined upon Daniel's people, the lost sheep of Israel, and the holy city, Jerusalem. That's true!

Now here is where we disagree on Daniel 9:24-25. Seventy weeks are determined "UPON THY PEOPLE and upon thy holy city, DANIELS PEOPLE!

These six things wasn't accomplished for Daniels people at the cross because"Daniels people" rejected Jesus as savior.

Daniels people transgression and sin is specific.

They denied their king and savior who came at the appointed time!

This is what Hosea 5:15 is talking about.

"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

This is also what Jesus is saying in Matthew 23:39. "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".

Of course they saw him again.

What Jesus is saying here is they won't behold him as a nation again until they say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!

That affliction will come in the 70th week.

When they turn to him then will those 6 things for "Daniels people" be accomplished.

Here is what I have as the middle of the 70th week. Revelation 13:4-5 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months".

In Matthew 24:3 When Jesus pointed his Desciples to Daniel 9 he was answering 2 of the 3 questions they asked him. "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world.

See pt 2.

Hi S Spencer,

Part 1

Did not know it was Messiah the King in Dan. 9:25, whether that would matter, we know He is King.

I have enjoyed this discussion because of its importance not on salvation but for those who will be living when the end starts. This 70th week, if it is in the future or if it has been fulfilled in the past makes a world of difference in what people are expecting to happen.

If the 70th week is in the future there will be the 7-year pre, mid, or post-tribulation as taught, but if it has been fulfilled in the past that would make that false. What outcome would that have on those who are here?

Daniels people, the lost sheep of Israel, Matt. 10:5-6 did not reject Him, it was the corrupt rulers of Jerusalem and the temple, Luke 16:14-15 whose eyes were blinded and Jesus cried over it Luke 19:39-44. Many of them believed in Him but would not confess Him, John 12:42. Jesus the Messiah had to be cut off/sacrificed, Psalm 22:16-18 Isaiah 53:8-12 to atone for sins, Dan. 9:26.

If the priests and leaders of Jerusalem had received Jesus as their Messiah and had not conspired with the Romans to crucify Him, there would be no atonement sacrifice for the salvation of the Jews first and also to the Greek/Gentiles, it was God's plan.

Daniel 9:25-27 is a precise prediction of when Jesus would come and be anointed. In the scripture from Matthew to Acts 8:4-5, there is strong evidence without assumption of a 7-year amount of time from the anointing of Jesus the Messiah and His 3.5-year ministry/confirming the covenant to the lost sheep of Israel, Daniel's people.

His crucifixion in the middle and 3.5 more years the gospel was to only the lost sheep, Daniel's people by Jesus through His apostles, thousands were saved, then the death of Stephen, and the gospel going to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous, the branch broke off, but still offered to the Jews.

See Part 2

S Spencer,

Part 2

The destruction of the city and the temple was the judgment for the ruler's abominations that was carried out, after the 490 years, Dan. 9:26 Luke 19:41-44. Why? Thou knowest not the time of thy visitation and this time was prophesied in Dan. 9:25. The Greek word here that is translated as visitation is episcope, which means investigation, inspection, overseer, and that was the 3.5 years He had been among them.

In Rev. 11:1-2 42 months, Rev. 11:3-7 1260 days, Rev. 12:6 1260 days, Rev. 12:14 a time and times and half time, Rev. 13:5 42 months. All these equal 3.5 years, the Gentiles trod down the Holy City, 3.5 years, the two witnesses are given power, 3.5 years, the woman is fed in a place from the face of the dragon for 3.5 years, and the first beast who people call the antichrist, power was given him to continue, 3.5 years. All is before the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15.

The Gentiles trodden down the holy city, the two witnesses, the woman being fed and hid from the face of the dragon, and the beast continuing, all 3.5 years. Are all these things going on at the same time? Without speculation can we say they are not? None of these 3.5-year 4 events looks peaceful, but the opposite. One thing is clear the beast in Rev. 13 is given only 3.5 years, not seven. And for those who consider Dan. 7 in Dan. 7:25, it is also 3.5 years.

So if he confirmed a covenant/treaty and 3.5 years of peace there is no mention of it in Revelation, only the 3.5 years from when he ascends out of the bottomless pit, Rev. 11:7, Rev. 13:1, and Rev. 17:8 until he is cast into the lake of fire by Jesus, Rev. 19:20.

I end with this, we have made it a long one. It has been a pleasure discussing this, may we all learn and grow from each other and be blessed, and be led by the Spirit of Truth. May your week go well.

Thank you, brother and God bless,

RLW

Thanks Brother Ronald.

Matthew 27:22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? THEY ALL SAY UNTO HIM, LET HIM BE CRUCIFIED.

Matthew 27:25 THEN ANSWERED ALL THE PEOPLE, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

also Mark 15:8-15

Through out the gospel the multitude rejected him.

only a few followed and the wasn't totally convinced until after the resurrection.

I believe we covered much considering I can't participate as much as I would like too.

I will continue on what I was working on with the Millennium kingdom and the approach to it later when time permits.

As usual it's been a great discussion with you.

God bless.

S Spencer the last week.

Part 5 and last

The Roman armies under General Titus placed their idolatrous ensigns as an "abomination" in Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. There is much more in history. what the leaders of Jerusalem did I will not say it here because none of it is recorded in the Bible. The prophecy is given in three phases one of seven weeks, a second of sixty-two weeks, and a third of one week. Nowhere does Gabriel imply a gap between any of these three phases.

The events in Verses 26 and 27 are joined together of the same event and cannot be taken to be in chronological order, the same as the events in Revelation are not in chronological order. The Messiah in vs. 26, who is cut off after 69 weeks is thehe in vs. 27 the one who confirms the covenant and in the middle of the week, His crucifixion is the cause of the sacrifices and oblations to cease.

Does any scripture confirm an event that happened in the middle of a 7-year week? The Gospel of John verifies the precise historical fulfillment of this prophecy in Christ's life; the time between His baptism and anointing and the cross was exactly three and one-half years. And Jesus through His apostles confirmed the last 3.5 years, that is recorded in history of Stephens death 3.5 years after Jesus crucifixion when the gospel went to the Gentiles.

I understand this is a lot but I hope this will be enough for you to see where I am coming from. It is not from a teaching or a group it is my understanding given to me of scriptures.

God bless,

RLW

Ronald.

Part 2.

Matthew 24:4-15.

Then from verses 5 through 13 Jesus gives what I would say any array of things that are not signs.

And then comes verses 14 and 15.

14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.

15) WHEN YE THEREFORE SHALL SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Brother Ronald this is definitely end times.

God bless.

Ronald.

This explanation of Daniel 9 is very easy to understand. Thanks for doing so. I agree with your analysis.

Thanks Brother Ronald.

I will go over these over the weekend.

God bless.