Bible Discussion Thread Page 3

The analogy of the bus was simply used to show that all men have this faith according to what it IS and exercise it every day .

The definition of what faith IS is therefore still upheld by Hebrews . " Now with is.."

Thus we must have a clear understanding of what faith IS before can go on .

And for that matter what it is not! So we don't get sidetracked .

For the record the Kingdom of God has been in existence since God created the heaven and earth .

God has not once relinquished His throne and still reigns and rules even as He has from the beginning .

That mankind have become rebels and relinquished their dominion over the earth to the devil is another matter entirely . But not without the foreknowledge of God .

Before anything was created visible or invisible there was only God or rather there is only God .

When God created both heaven and earth . That creation was not incorruptible ,for only God is incorruptible .

With every action there is a reaction . So "sin must come but woe to him by whom it comes"

Wisdom then dictated two trees in the midst of the garden . The tree of life and the other tree.

Note in all that followed Genesis 1:1, God still ruled and worked everything according to His own council and will .

The devil rebelled in heaven , he was cast out of heaven to the earth his power "in the air"

The Lord is coming to the air . he is vast down to the earth . The Lord will step on the earth . he is cast down the pit .

" If I by the finger of God do cast out demons ,know ye that the kingdom of God has drawn nigh you.

The kingdom of God is within you it is also written .

I think your confusing two very different subjects ." He that doeth the will of God are my ( true) mother "

And what faith IS . Time and space will not allow me to say much else . But I hope and pray what has been said helps. GB

Gerald, last post, I promise!

Paul said in Galatians 2:20, for I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I live, I live by the faith "of" the Son of God.

All the translations, including the New King James changed it to "live by the faith in the Son of God."

Now is that true? Yes it is true. We live by faith in Christ. But the basis of my faith is His faith, not mine!

And you might ask what about back in the gospels, when Jesus said let it be unto you according to your faith? Or, He would say where is your faith?

Let me just point out that the Greek is so exact that there is no "wiggle room" in there as to what it's talking about.

For instance, when Jesus said where is your faith, just the pronoun "your" means where is the faith that you're supposed to possess.

If He was challenging them to produce the faith, it would not be a personal pronoun, it would be a reflexive pronoun, "Where is the faith of you? Why aren't you producing it?"

Jesus never used a reflexive pronoun because the gospels is a historical presentation to us of three years of Jesus taking the disciples, and putting them in situations that are designed for God's Spirit to do, not for human beings to do, putting them into those situations and letting them fail. They tried!

Jesus was not challenging them in each of those circumstances to perform, and then after three years say "When are you guys going to learn?" Jesus wasn't challenging them to come up with the faith. He was showing them that without Christ, they cannot do one thing. They can't do it!

But for me, the definition of faith is persuasion. And it is a word that describes the presence and the activity of God's Spirit in the life of the believer. So it's Christ in me that persuades me. I am under the influence of an unseen Spirit that persuades me and ministers to me. And for me, that is faith!

Again, thank you for what you've shared!

Amen, Spot on Brother Jesse.

I believe the short cummings of the disciples during Jesus 3-year ministry exhibits the lack of "fruit barren faith" that only can be produced by the vine.

This is faith in a substance, (Our Lord Jesus.) The author and finisher of the faith.

If I'm going to have to go with the body of scripture as a whole, I would have to come up with the conclusion that my faith is a fruit of the Holyspirit without having to go to the Greek.

However here is the Greek in the Strongs.

Author= Chief leader/Captain or prince.

Finisher=Completer that is consummater.

Faith:

Greek:

Transliteration: pistis

Pronunciation: pis'-tis

Definition: From G3982; persuasion that is credence; moral conviction (of religious truth or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher) especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance belief believe faith fidelity.

Ephesians 2:8-9.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now if it's God's grace, and my faith, then I would something to boast of. "My faith initiated His grace".

That would be a form of work to add to my salvation and it would be something I could lose.

But if he is the Author and the finisher of "HIS faith, I can't lose that.

BECAUSE HE IS THE FINISHER OF WHAT HE STARTED.

God bless you.

Brother Spencer,

I completely agree. I would even go as far to say that they not only lacked faith (Spiritual faith), but the had none at all. You see, the Holy Spirit had not come yet. They did have human faith but without the indwelling of Gods Spirit, they had no way of coming up with Spiritual faith. That faith is a fruit of Gods Spirit, not man produced.

Acts 3:16 is one of the great verses in the bible that says this man was given the faith by Jesus. And Jesus is glorified by it because Jesus is the one that did this.



Faith is not produced by man. There is a certain kind of faith that man produces, but it's not spiritual faith, and it's not saving faith.

James, in James Chapter 2 discussed that. There is a faith that won't save you. Religious faith, human faith! But there is a faith that is produced by the Holy Spirit. The bible says that God gives us the faith.

Sorry for not replying sooner. I am staying at a Navy facility in Virginia for the next few months and the internet here is hit and miss, some days non-existent!

God bless you for everything you do here.

Amen Brother Jesse!

Acts 3:16 is one I missed and a great example.

I'm also traveling and trying voice command that Isn't going well!

You have to have perfect pronunciations. I'm originally from Louisiana

I didn't realize my speech has so many issues.

I generally don't like to respond until I'm at home on the desktop.

GB

Gerald,

Here is my continuation:

I have given my understanding of the human kind of persuasion, or human faith. It is persuading ourselves to believe.

The God kind of persuasion, or biblical faith describes what God's Spirit does in the life of the believer.

All of His ministry to me, everything that God's Spirit does in me, and everything that God's Spirit does when I get together with other believers for bible study, and I'm not saying that 100% of it is the Lord, but every time the Holy Spirit ministers to me, it all comes under the category of persuasion because He is someone I cannot see, and cannot audibly hear.

There is something persuading us about the truth, or persuading us about the things of Christ.

I have a personal definition of faith. Faith is the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life.

That's God's faith. That's the faith that's in the bible. In Galatians 5:22, it says but the fruit of the Spirit, (speaking of the Holy Spirit), is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, and faith.

Faith is a fruit of God's Spirit. Faith is a persuasion which God's Spirit produces, not man.

In Hebrews 12:2, we are told to run the race, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

However, the word "our" as in our faith, it's not in the Greek text. It's the word "the." He is the author and the finisher of the faith.

If you have a copy of the old King James Bible, there are numerous phrases that talk about the faith of Christ.

The newer translations will take the phrase "the faith of Christ," and change it to faith "in" Christ, because the translators said it makes it sound like it's the Lord's faith. Well, duh! But they said it must be "in Christ." No, it's the faith of Christ!

I am going to need one more post. My apologies for being long winded!

Gerald,

First, let me say thank you for taking the time to share your understanding of the word faith. You have shared some things that I fully agree with.

It looks to me from reading through your 3-part post, that you believe there are two types of faith. I also believe there are two types of faith, human faith which everyone has, both believer and non-believer alike. And then there's the faith that the Bible speaks of. Every one has human faith. But not everyone has biblical faith.

I believe I have a strong understanding of biblical faith, as you also believe you do. I will keep this as short as I can, but will try and further share why I believe the way I do.

But please know that I am only sharing my understanding the same way you shared yours. I am not looking for an argument on the word faith, just sharing what I firmly believe.

First of all, the word faith in Greek is PISTIS. It is from the word PEITHO which means to persuade. If you're into the study of Greek culture or Greek mythology, you know that Peithos was the goddess of persuasion.

But Peitho is the root word for the word faith. The verb form of Pistis is the word that means to believe.

In Greek, not so much English, but in Greek, how a Hellenist or Greek speaking person would understand faith, he or she would understand it as persuasion.

People hear the word faith and they go in all different directions as to what faith is. But faith is Pistis. And it means persuasion.

There are two kinds of faith because there are two sources of faith. And remember that every time we say faith, we are making reference to persuasion. But there are two kinds of faith, and two sources of faith. One is human, and one is from God as a source.

The human kind of faith is when the human being persuades himself or herself to believe. That's not biblical faith.

I am going to need a little more space so please bear with me!

My posts are not for fruitless arguing or for just beings' different' or contentious .

I'm afraid it's no use for you or anyone to give me the Greek or hebrew for I neither know enough about both to use them correctly or know if another is .

There's also no guarantee that knowing Greek or Hebrew will give you a right understanding of the scriptures .

For did not Saul of Tarsus know the scriptures ,more than most . Was not Hebrew his mother tongue ?

Yet did he understand the scriptures ? No! He so did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church agreed with Stephens death and was charged with persecuting the Lord .

The Pharisees ,Sadducee's and Drs of the law did they understand the scriptures ? No! Yet Hebrew was their mother tongue yet so not unde4stoid the scriptures crucified the Lord himself .

If you know and understand Greek or Hebrew ( which is fine) be sure to still not lean upon your own understanding of Greek and Hebrew for that danger is even more prevalent. Not to undeminevyiur confidence in the Lord but rather to warn you or any that understanding both is no guarantee of understanding the scriptures as they were and are meant to be so .

We are not persuaded by faith but being persuaded by understanding the Word of God ,for faith in God comes by understanding the Word of God . It is not a product of faith . Faith is what you use when you have understood and intelligently respond in faith to what you know to be the truth .

There are not two types of faith . According to what faith IS ,all have a measure of it to " profit withal"

Faith works in the same way in the world ( my analogy of the bus proves it) as it does when our faith is in God .

It's the same faith .

The religious baggage that has been added to it is quite awful .

We do not have to get faith . We use our faith every day . If you havevever got on a plane . Not only have you put your faith in the pilots but also wether you understand them or not the laws of physics .

Gerald,

I hope you don't think I was accusing you of posting things "for fruitless arguing or for just beings' different' or contentious."

I would not do that. I thought I was respectful in what I shared with you. I did thank you for what you shared and I even told you that I agreed with much of what you said.

All we can do here is share our understanding, whether it be right or wrong.

You are absolutely correct in saying "there is no guarantee that knowing Greek or Hebrew will give you a right understanding of the scriptures.

That is true. There's also no guarantee that reading the English text is going to give us an understanding.

The only way we can understand scripture is if God through His Spirit reveals it to us. We have no way of comprehending God's word without His help. And we can only know if He wants us to know. There's so much scripture I still do not understand but it does not get me down because I come to realize that the reason I don't understand something is because He knows I'm not ready to understand it. The Lord will only give me what He knows I am ready to handle, and I'm okay with that.

Again, thank you for the things you've shared.

Was not saying that to accuse you but rather for any other readers who might jump to that conclusion .

I've been a child of God ,born again for over 40 years and still find the Bible inexhaustible.

A well very deep but with clear pure water for the drinking if you take the time and trouble to go for it .

Is it not written "they who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled"?

Keep on keeping on says the scripture for " then shall ye know as you follow onto know".

Waters up to the ankles . Safe enough for a child to paddle in .

Waters up to the loins . Safe enough for " young men" up to their loins who if their honest at first are a little afraid ,because they feel the power of the waters and know it could destroy them .

But to their delight and joy find ,

There are waters to swim in and the sea bares them up .

But even here the same scripture does not stop .

For while a man can swim the English Channel he is not going to be able swim the Atlantic or indeed the Pacific .

But what does the scripture say?

But I " could not go on and the angel led me to a river on who's banks trees were planted whos leaves were for the healing of the nations .

Keep eating keep studying keep thinking or meditating on the scriptures for no time spent doing so is wasted nor unfruitful if we do so prayerfully .

For we do but give the Holy Spirit the means to work in you that which pleases God to do .

Psalm 1 . Blessed is the man who meditates on Gods Word day and night ,"he is like a tree planted by the rivers of living waters ".

It is line upon line and precept upon precept and your right we cannot understand what we are not ready for or " able to bear"

But you would be surprised what God can do .

Jesse, in following this conversation with Gerald, I agree that you have been respectful and not accusatory.

I agree that it is the Holy Spirits task and pleasure to open up our understanding of Scripture. He is glad to do this when we honestly seek Him to show us what is true. We may need to check our biases and preconceptions before He will do this, but He is faithful to reach us through the Word and through one another.

alex1939...Gerald Gbu But we have to keep in mind that the Kingdom does NOT come till the woman births the manchild...Rev.12:10...Its the Kingdom we are all hoping for...Remember Jesus said the Kingdom of God will come as a man who sows seed in his field...And our hearts is that field where the good seed is sown...Thats y he is saying unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...( A spiritual pregnancy ) via his seed the word...The woman in Rev 12 had to go thru a spritual pregnancy...By hearing his word his seeds as he said the good seed is the words of God...The book that he wrote with his own blood contains the living words of God and is that New Covenant in his blood...Drink ye all of it...Remember when he took the cup and said drink ye all of it this is the New testament in my blood...( the new covenant. )

.....And we have to keep in mind that the manchild fits the spirit of truth that is gonna rule all nations....Goes back to Jeremiah 1 when Jeremiah said he cd not speak he was just a Child...Jesus said the spirit of truth cd not speak of himself....Thats b/c he is gonna be born in Humanity...He is just an infant...A Spiritual infant...She brought forth a manchild a kingdom Child...As Jesus said that which is born of the spirit is spirit...Our new innerman has to be born in us via the seed of Jesus...As his seed/word triggers a spiritual pregnancy Which is Faith the substance of a baby Christ the Kingdom ...That New Born Babe desiring the sincere milk of the word is the H.G. and is that Child of Promise, the H.G. The Kingdom...Unless you receive the Kingdom as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...Remember even back in the O.T. only the babes cd enter the promise land... Numbers 14:31..That woman in Rev. 12 is a beautiful picture of the Church birthing Christ...The son of man...mankinds fruit unto God...Keep in mind Gerald this analogy fits the New Birth via his blood..The New Covenant..An Israel of God.k

I beg to differ . For not only did Jesus say to some " the kingdom of God is within you " is it not also written if you are a true born child of God you have been " translated from the kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Gods dear Son.

For every kingdom has a King and every kingdom has citizens .and each kingdom has laws .

The kingdom of darkness is of the law of sin and death .

The kingdom of God is of Life and Jesus Christ .

I am already in the kingdom of God and will enter into its fullness anon .

But when Jesus said to pray Thy kingdom come Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven .

Let the kingdom of God that is in you be manifested in your life . Or in other words ,Be not conformed to this world and the kingdom of darkness but walk in the light as He is in the light and we will have fellowship with Him and with each other and the blood of Jesus Christ will cleanse you and me ad a are in the body ( continually) from all sin "

For even as the natural body has blood that circulates the body and protects it from infection etc and cleanses the body . So too the spiritual body.

For we are are we not? Members of the one body ,He being the head and king of the body .

"If any man says he has no sin the truth is not in him "

For this mortal body is still subject to the law of sin and death . Thus the reason to not only confess our sin but the blood of Jesus Christ not only cleanses us from any particular sin but that sin that still lurks in our mortal bodies .

Let not sin REIGN in your mortal bodies says the scriptures .

Rule ,govern a kingdom if you will of sin .

But let Christ reign in your mortal body . Who or what rules in your ' kingdom'?

That which you speak of in revelation is another matter that time and space and indeed full understanding of will not allow .

Well said, brother Gerald.

alex1939...Amen Gerald Hebrews 11:1 is the best description of faith, Its simply a spritual pregnancy that precedes the New Birth...The Child is the H.G. THE Child of Promise...When a woman is pregnant she has the substance of things hoped for the Evidence of things not seen...But in the spritual realm the bridegroom is Jesus and his words are his seeds...Thats y he has to know us, Thats when the good seed the living word is sown in our hearts...Forming Christ in us...My lil Chidren of whom i travail in Birth till CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU...Thats y he always refers to himself as the son of man...Impling mankinds fruit unto God as Romans 7:4 tells us...Thus the Wheat is truly a baby Christ...Simply b/c the sower of that heavenly seed is Christ the bridegroom...Our hearts is the womb in the spirit...Thats y he is saying that which is born of the spirit is spirit thus the Child IS OUR NEW INNERMAN the H.G. the multiplication/regeneration of Christ in us..The Child is the Evidence we have known the bridegroom.

.....But this is gonna initiate war in heaven...Its gonna be Kingdom against Kingdom...Simply b/c satan is gonna sow a tare in

us which is satans seed...Remember satan the dragon the tare wanted to kill the woman with Child Rev 12:5 a great warfare with in us...This war rages in our hearts and minds simply b/c the Kingdom is gonna be with in us...The woman is the world as God so loved the world but she is also bride the good ground where the good seed was sown impregnating her with that heavenly seed...The Children of Promise an Israel of God...But these things are hid from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes...Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail and birth pains... Jeremiah 30:6...Men & women are gonna birth a baby Christ...Kings shall be your nursing father and women are gonna be your nursing mothers..Faith under this New Covenant is gonna fulfill the great promise of multiplication n regeneration in humanity....ok lemme go

I see nothing in the scriptures to suggest faith is some ' spiritual pregnancy'.

For faith in of and by itself can do nothing .

It all depends on where you have put your faith .

Faith in God comes by hearing and understanding the living Word of God .in what it says and promises to them that believe .

It is the fulfilment of the Word of God and promises that produces something r " The seed is the Word of God".

We benefit when we sow in faith believing God . Understanding that what we do we reap .

Faith is that measure which if it is in God pleases God . For without faith it is impossible to please God "

For we honour God first by believing Him and then as in all real belief acting upon what we understand on the one hand and in the goodness of God and will keep His Word .

Even the measure of faith we have is a gift of God ,so all the glory belongs to God . But we have also the satisfaction of our faith being rewarded and pleasing God.

Thank you, Gerald, for this response and for its clarity.

Continued :

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for ..

A farmer sows in hope because of the promise that is in the seed .

Unless he sows in faith he will not get a harvest but believing in the promise he sows .

And gives substance to his hope . Faith without works is dead .

Real faith is not blind but sees that which is as it were afar off and being convinced of it acts accordingly .

"It is the evidence of things as yet unseen .."

When no one is at the bust stop you nearly always think you have missed the bus . But if someone is there you have hope .

By you standing at the bust stop not only do you give substance to yiur hope ( in the promise) but you are the evidence of things as yet unseen .The bus!

And in due time your faith is rewarded and you get on the bus or you have a harvest or you get your flight .

The bus company says you must stand at a particular bus stop . If you think the bus will stop for you anywhere else you will be disappointed . The airline states the time of departure if you think it will wait for you ,you will be disappointed .

The farmer knows he has not only to sow that seed but that there is a time for sowing .

Faith has rules! Wether you faith is in God or something else .

It is not something you have to get you already have faith and use it every day . Faith in God works by the same principles as to what faith IS . It is not a different faith it's simply put in its right place .Or rather in the right person .

Faith can grow and a new born child of God has a measure of faith in God .

There is " little faith " there is "great faith " there is faith as "small as a mustard seed "

Peter had little faith despite the fact that he had just walked on water .

The only two people who the Lord said had " great faith" were interestingly ; gentiles .

Abraham " the father of the faithful" had faith but it had also to grow .

He was only partial in his obedience to God at the beginning . So also are we .

To be continued

Amen and Tnank you brother Jesse.

Often we read or hear the word of God and we say "I'm going to do that". For instance We shall love one another as I have loved you. How are we carrying that out as a whole?

This is not anything our flesh wants us to do.

I believe the inerrant word of God CAUSES us to do something our natural man couldn't do.

This is Agape!

This is what Jesus asked Peter in John 21:15-17.

Peter understood. Peter responded "You know I love you Lord".

Peter didn't use the word Agape, he used phile. Perhaps that's the highest degree of Love the flesh is capable of.

He knew he wasn't capable.

Neither was the disciples ready for ministry until the were filled with the Holyspirit.

We're talking about fruit barring that Israel "being a degenerate vine" couldn't do. " Matthew 21:43.

You can't command someone to Love the way God loves.

I believe in Matthew 21:43 that nation mentioned here is the Church Peter mentions in 1 Peter 2:9.

Here's another reference of where our righteous deeds if counted worthy must come from within the heart. Matthew 23:25-28. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Thou blind Pharisee, CLEANSE FIRST THAT WHICH IS WITHIN THE CUP AND PLATTER, THAT THE OUTSIDE OF THEM MAY BE CLEAN ALSO.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Thanks Brother Jesse.

God bless you.

Hello Spencer

I would like to bring some thoughts into consideration.

If I don't feel like doing a good work that is infront of me but still know that this is God's Will, should or should I not do it? What is Lord expecting from me and how is He going to judge my specific action(or lack of it)?

If I don't feel like obeying God's commandements in the New Testament, should I still or not obey them? Is is how I feel (or driven/moved by the Spirit) or is it how it should be and what is God expecting from me?

What do we actually mean when we say that we are driven by the Spirit or that we are under the influence of the Spirit? Do we expect a feeling or a motivation getting somehow inside us? Isn't it enough that the written Word of God istructs us to do certain things? Isn't the Word of God written by the influence of the Spirit? Isn't it what the Spirit of God wants us to do(or not to do)? Do we really need an extra motivation/inspiration? And if there isn't such an extra motivation are we justified for not doing the obvious? How is God going to judge our works or the lack of them?

Well, it is 1 o'clock after midnight here, so I'll get back here tomorrow. Till then GBU. I would also like to see what others believe about that.

It is written of the Lord in one gospel that " He was LED "into the wilderness to be tempted .

In another it is written ,He was "DRIVEN" . Both are right .

In another place " He must needs go to Samaria "

They that are led by the Spirit they are the sons of God" Sometimes also we must needs go or do this .

For the same Holy Spirit that was in Him and led or drove Him dwells also in every true believer .

"For He shall not only be with you but shall be in you and shall abide with you forever "

Hi Giannis.

Good questions.

The emphasis was on the motive in which we do things. " Examine ourselves to see if we are doing it by command. glory or Agape.

I believe what is important is the Heart behind every action.

The work and the heart behind the things we do that pleases God can only be achieved by the Holyspirit.

Romans 8:7-9.

In my post I was asking WHAT IS OUR MOTIVE when we do the things we are asked NOT to do.

That's why a stated; "If we are supposed to be moved by the Spirit "by the instrument of faith" unto good works but yet we don't display good works, then our faith is vain/dead, Then is it fair to say that if we provide works THAT IS NOT BY THE INFLUENCE of the spirit that causes obedience to God's word, "then our work is vain."

Here's an Scriptural example

Matthew 6:1-8.

If our works confirms our faith and that work is tried by fire, it will stand. But if we perform a work we are asked NOT to do, What is the motive? Pride? And should we care?

If pride I believe we are building with wood hay and stubble. It will go up in smoke!

So the context in these posts isn't focused on the people in rebellion to God's instructions. It's focus is on those who seem content in their salvation when we should be concerned about the order mentioned in scripture that helps us grow so we don't become lukewarm.

Our attitude and trust in God's structure and instructions being profound or not to Grow "or perfect" the Church is on trial

Ephesians 4:11-16. seems to say he gave particular offices to particular people to Prosper the Church.

Thanks and Goodnight.

Hello Spencer

"Works" is a big subject to be discussed and there is a lot to be said. This topic often causes "fights" between us christians and there are different beliefs from "works are not necessary" to "works save". So I think I will leave it for the weekend so we have enough time to write down our thoughts. But you are right about the motive of good works, it should always be Love, like Paul says in 1 Cor 13:1-3. David0920 has some good points as well.

Have a blessed week.

And something else. Don't use the word "agape" as a magic word, it just means "love" in grk, nothing more, nothing less. The important think about love is the quantity of it. A bit? A bit more? A lot more? God is love, He is the upper end, His love is infinite.

An unrighteous man cannot do a righteous work for how can a fountain bring forth sweet and bitter waters?

Your right though it is a subject littered with mines laid by many a foolish man.

Suffice to say that while we are are using the same word ,' WORKS' a careful and prayerful reading of both James and Paul shows they are speaking about two different sort of works.

Gerald

An unrighteous man cannot do a righteous work for how can a fountain bring forth sweet and bitter waters?

Your right though it is a subject littered with mines laid by many a foolish man.

Suffice to say that while we are are using the same word ,' WORKS' a careful and prayerful reading of both James and Paul shows they are speaking about two different sort of works.

Gerald

Hi Giannis.

Thanks for responding.

We will talk this weekend, but just wanted to say I chose Agape purposely instead of Eros, Storge, or Philia, This is no magic word and it's not Love we can manifest.

This is Love that God causes.

God bless.

Hello Spencer.

Some info about the word "agape". From your post I think you are reffering to a commercial on AmericanTV, I've seen it myself on internet. Well, do not rely on that.

"Philia" means "friendship", "storge" means "affection", "eros" means "in love", "agape" means "love" in grk. The first three terms are not used instead of love(or as love), but they are conditions/feelings DUE to love. In modern grk only the last one is used for "love". It doesn't matter where this love comes from (from God or man), the word is always the same, it is agape. There isn't another word used for God and another for man, it is the same, nomatter where this love comes from. So man has agape, God also has agape. The difference between man's love and God's love is not a difference in the nature of love(it is love, not something else), but in the "quantity" of it. If we use a scale for love starting from zero to infinity, God is in the upper end, His love is infinite, that's why we say that God is Love. God is indentified as love. Men are in the lower part of that scale and if we want to get higher on that scale we need God's Spirit (to have the fruit of love and increase in it) and grace to grow in love. How far one rises in that scale is due to one's decision to go for it, using God's grace which is available to all believers.

In ancient grk. the verb "philo" (which derives from "philia") is also used for one's love for their friends (this is not used in modern grk). In the incident described in John 21:15-19 Jesus asks Peter if he loves him. The first two times He uses the verb "philo" whereas the third time He uses the verb "agapo". A lot has been written about that, some try to see a difference and some just ignore it since it is the same, the same love, but for a friend. That is why I named it a "magic" word, since it seems English people find something extraordinary in the word agape, but it simply means love in grk, nothing more than that.

GBU

Hi Giannis.

I said I would come back to John 21:15-19.

You said "the first two times He/Jesus uses the verb "philo" whereas the third time He uses the verb "agapo".

I have it different.

Jesus asked Peter the first 2 times Simon son of Jonas "Agape thou me". And peter responded yes Lord thou knowest that I "phile thee both times.

The third time Jesus asks Simon son of Jonas phile thou me.

" He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, phile thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I phile thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."

I don't believe Peter was grieved because Jesus asked Peter three times because Peter denied Jesus 3 times as some do.

I believe Peter was grieved because Jesus used phile the third time coming down to Peters ability express his Love.

Part 2.

Now one may think, "if I devote myself to a mission then I don't have to work, the church should provide for me and my family". Is this right? What does the Bible says about that?

It is true that God gives to people who are missioners for Him the right not to work but live with what the church provides for them, so that they are not distracted from their mission, it is not possible to go travelling and work at the same time, it is very hard to work and supervise a church at the same time. There is hardly enough time for both. Paul deals with that extensively in 1 Corinthians 9:1-14.

But through ages a major problem has been created in Christianity. A right that was given by God to His people to help them to work for Him, has been taken advantage of by many to make it a profession and live from it. There are a lot of people who choose it as a profession. There are also many that they make millions from that. They often claim that God provides them with plenty of money for their mission to become easier. And they don't stop asking from believers persistently even by using/twisting God's Word, the tiths, which tiths are not valid now in New Testament.

The same problem seems to have occured in Paul's time. So what Paul decided to do was to deny that right and work with His own hands for him and his accompanions, 1 Cor 9:15-18. He also suggests that to the elders in Ephessus, Acts 20:32-35. But it also seems that many times he accepted help from churches, since it wasn't always easy to find a job in those places he travelled to. And many times he was left hungry and thirsty... 1 Cor 4:11-12.

GBU

Thanks Giannis.

God bless you.

Part 1

Hello Spencer.

You are right about that, I wrote it the other way around.

Now my opinion (and how I have been tought) about those 3 times that Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him is: After Jesus' resurrection and reappearence to the apostles Peter suggests to the other apostles to go fishing, and so they do. They still haven't understood well what their mission (in grk "apostole") is. Their mission is to go to Israel and the other nations to preach the gospel, not go back to their old lives and proffesions. Jesus miracusely provides them with plenty of fish, showing that from now on it is God who is going to take care of their life, there is no need for them to go back, there is something else for them to do. The apostles seem not to have understood well what their life is going to be from now on (after Pentecost they did). So Jesus asks Peter if He loves Him. Peter says "yes", so Jesus tells him to "feed His ship"(this is what he oughts to do now, not go fishing). It seems that Peter still haven't understoond what his mission was, so Jesus repeats what he said before since He knows that Peter is not really aware what is Jesus trying to tell him. The answer is the same, but Jesus asks him for a third time. Peter is sad but now he got the message, Jesus was not in a need to say it again for a fourth time. It is like we often do with our children, sometimes we repeat many times the same order/suggestion to them when we see that they dodn't get what we want to tell them.

In the begining of their dialogue Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him more than "these". Who are "these"? Many say He meant the rest of the disciples present. I don't think God ever asks anybody if they love Him more than somebody else, it wouldn't be nice and fair for that other person, especially when they are present. The "these" is the ship, the fish, the fishing, the material things. People who devote their lives to missions must not be invlolved in the affairs of this life, Timothy 2:14.

Hi Giannis.

Well that explains it.

Your reply is based off the assumption that I've seen that commercial. Sorry but I've haven't seen it.

You mentioned "Philia" means "friendship", "storge" means "affection", "eros" means "in love", "agape" means "love" in grk.

End quote.

That is also the way I define them..

However I wasn't defining them in my post, I was applying them and Identifying the source behind them in the English translated from the Greek.

You said Philia, storge, eros is not used for Love In modern grk only agape is used for "love". End quote.

Ok, well that's in the Greek, but in English all these words is translated Love, as you also acknowledged in John 21:15-19. "I will come back to that."

You went on to define agape and stated its used for man and also for God. I agree with that!

We see it used that way here in John 3:19.

( Men Love/agape darkness rather than light ) Men was totally given over to darkness unconditionally. That describes Love/Agape as a condition.

The shift is once saved and given the Holyspirit that love is unconditionally given over to light and the ability to "Love your brothern as I have loved you" as Jesus commanded.

" It's as you stated WE NEED GOD'S SPIRIT (to have the fruit of love and increase in it) and grace to grow in love. How far one rises in that scale is due to one's decision to go for it, using God's grace which is available to all believers."

The Love "FOR THE BROTHERN" I believe that is Gods spirit that CAUSES that! 1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That HE WHO LOVETH GOD LOVE HIS BROTHER ALSO.

I'm not defining Agape as define love. I'm identifying the source and the define power giving us the ability to perform Gods Love to one another.

We can't do it on our own. Men Love darkness.

GBU.

" Let the love of God be shed abroad in your hearts"? Is not one of the fruit of the Spirit ,love?

I'm not sure then what you mean .GB

Rom 8:1-14

In Rom 8 God is teaching us something about the Nature of Salvation. He is contrasting the character of someone that has become Saved, i.e. Born Again, with our condition if we have not become saved.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

We must read and understand Rom 8:7-8 in the context of the entire chapter and in fact the entire Bible.

I fear the church has reduced the salvation of God to simply being BORN again.

In truth if we are found before God spotless in the Bride adorned we are still ' saved ' and will be through all ages .

But for now we have been delivered from the power of sin ( the law) and the consequences of sin (eternal separation from God )

The second death .

But then from the very presence of sin .

We were not only saved From we are also saved unto God .

To get out of Egypt by the Word of God ( to Abraham) the blood of a lamb and by the Power of God ( in a day) .

Is to be Born again ,a no people becoming a people .

But we are saved for a purpose it is not to wander in the wilderness .

If you took the word Salvation we have but touched the S of our salvation .

It is as some hardy sailors having landed on some great continent where the weather is perfect the surroundings beautiful and the tree line containing all we might need and we have sat down and built our camp there and at at ' peace'. Not knowing that behind that tree line is a great continent ,full of so much more .

Hi Giannis.

Great questions and goodnight. I'm shutting it down also.

We'll talk later.

God bless.