Discuss Romans 5 Page 2

Famous saying " we are not sinners because we sin, we are sinners because we are born sinners ".

Now we all know why we are sinners, it's one man's disobedience. " Adam "

Romans 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were madesinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Blame it on Adam disobedience to God for our death, but God gives life .

1 Corinthians 15:22

For as inAdamall die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We may all die in the flesh some day, but God give life through Jesus Christ .

Romans 6:23

For thewagesofsinis death; but the giftofGod is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Next section:

GOD'S MERCY IS NEW EVERY MORNING AND NEVER FAILS

Every sinner is in need of God's mercy. When one realizes this and cries to God for mercy we admit to deserving eternal punishment for our sins as well as being undeserving of His mercy. By rights, we should be under his impending wrath, like all mankind ( Ephesians 2:3) - but for "the tender mercy of our God" ( Luke 1:78), in which Jesus took god's wrath in our place and allows for our sins to be forgiven.

In Titus 3:4-7, the apostle Paul gives us one of the best descriptions of God's mercy as revealed in Jesus Christ:

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

God's mercy forgives and saves us specifically because He withholds the punishment, condemnation and wrath we deserve.

Romans 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Exodus 33:19 reveals a great glimpse of God's mercy. In one of the most important passages in all the Bible, after Moses has asked God to show him his glory, God answers, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The Lord.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

When asked to show his glory, God puts his goodness in grace and mercy on display - and his utter freedom in showing his mercy to whomever he chooses.

See Pt. 2

GOD'S GRACE

Pt. 2

The only way any of us can enter into a relationship with God is because of His grace toward us. Beginning in Eden when Adam and Eve sinned God restored them to fellowship with Him by His free grace. He could have killed the first humans right then for their disobedience. But rather than destroy them, He chose to make a way for them to be right with Him.

God is the instigator of grace, and it is from Him that all other aspects of grace flows.

God extends grace to those He elected while we all were His enemies ( Romans 5:10) by regeneration wrought by the Spirit.

He gives us forgiveness ( Hebrews 8:12; Ephesians 1:7), reconciliation ( Colossians 1:19-20), abundant life ( John 10:10), eternal treasure ( Luke 12:33), His Holy Spirit ( Luke 11:13), and a place in heaven with Him some day ( John 3:16-18) when we are called by the gospel and its offer and place our faith in Jesus and His work on our behalf.

Grace is God giving the greatest treasure to the least deserving-which is every one of us whom He has brought to faith and placed us in Christ. This redemption is forever and the greatest treasure is Christ Himself.

"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." ( Hebrews 4:16)

"But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." ( James 4:6)

We find the term "grace" throughout the Bible as a gift and action of God. But what is God's grace, and how does it relate to us?

We experience God's grace because God is gracious. In Exodus 34:6, when God shows himself to Moses, we read, "The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness." Gracious is used here as an adjective describing God. It is one of His attributes, describing who He is.

You ask a good question which sounds like the question Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people, especially believers?

Everyone has things to be thankful for while also being aware of our challenges. This was true in the Bible times and people even made assumptions, like when things are bad assuming its because of sin or that they're being targeted, instead of considering that it is a fallen world and that everyone has bad things happen to them.

Just today I read that there was a shooting in a Christian school. I bet the grieving of lost loved ones are asking the same question. I think Paul asked the same question because he was constantly in fear of death and was tortured and had many problems. Jesus was unfairly treated and even murdered. Today in nearly every city in the world are homeless people who will spend tonight in the cold and some are Christians, veterans, servants and they might ask why.

There is another assumption in society that God will make us happy, healthy, and wealthy if we follow Jesus. I hear that on TV, but that's not exactly in the Bible. It says we will face many trials in James 1 and be happy when we suffer for doing what is right. Romans 5:3-4. This is probably not what you want to hear but as a brother in Christ I want to share the truth. And yes, I'm suffering with something massively too that is a big burden, but different category than you. I think everyone does. I feel bad that you are suffering but keep praying because God does lighten our burdens sometimes. Hang in there, sister in Christ.

(Romans Part 13):

Romans 5:16 - And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Here we have two different Greek words for our English word "gift." It says, "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift:" That's DOREMA, a gift that is given.

For the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift, the CHARISMA, is of many offences unto justification. Free gift! Sin brings condemnation and judgment. The free gift brings righteousness over the offence and judgment.

Romans 6:2 - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

He says God forbid, which in the Greek language, it is the strongest expression of impossibility. May it not happen!

Where we see the word sin in this verse, in the Greek text it has the definite article. It is "the sin." In the bible, from the Greek language, it is used to designate this principle of sin or source of sin, who is the devil. The sin in the bible is represented by the devil.

Romans 6:19 - I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:

And then the explanation because we have been commissioned:

For as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants, or slaves, to righteousness unto holiness.

The word holiness is the Greek word from which we get the word sanctification from. Yield your members as slaves for sanctification, for production!

(Romans Part 12):

Romans 5:4 - And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

And patience works experience; Now this is an interesting word. It is literally the word proof. That's why English translations have a difficult time finding out how to express this word. When God puts me in a designed tribulation that He has for me, He is proving Himself to me, and He's proving me to everybody else! It's not how I look in church, or how I look in bible study. It's the faithfulness of God that takes me through all of my situations.

And patience, experience; and experience works out hope: You see, my hope is certain. Hope, ELPIS in the Greek, does not mean a hope like, "I wish it will happen." It's an expectancy. You expect it to happen. You know it's going to happen. When God proves Himself to us, through all of our situations, that builds our hope because of experience in Christ.

Romans 5:11 - And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

It's interesting that the Greek word for atonement KATALLAGEN is the word reconciliation! We have received reconciliation. I have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. If you told that to somebody on the street, they would think that you belong in the "loony farm." But it's true, and it's a relationship!

Romans 5:15 - But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. This word gift is the word CHARISMA. You see, it is not a talent. It is not an ability. It means expression of grace. It comes from the word CHARIS.

(Romans Part 11):

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

"Therefore being justified by faith." Even though the word "being" is in there which shows a condition or a state, literally in the Greek text it shows Past Tense. "After having been placed in a position of justification." You've now been justified. It's put in the past. It's a one-time thing, never to be taken back!

Romans 5:2 - By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The word rejoice is literally the word to boast or show boldness. We have boldness in hope of the glory of God. That is to say, "One day I am going to be in His presence." And that is the hope that my life is built on, not on the economic condition of the world, not on the condition of the worlds systems. Even though I get discouraged and I feel bad for people and the way things are in this world, my hope is not on this world getting straightened out. My hope is to one day be in the presence of God.

Romans 5:3 - And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Tribulations are those afflictions, and the word is THLIPSIS which means stress, pressure of the mind. In Acts 14:22, when Paul was re-circling through the cities that he had testified to in his first missionary journey, he went through confirming the souls of the disciples and exhorted them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

God allows tribulation and stress in order to direct us to Christ and to trust Him! We rejoice in tribulations. People think we're crazy! It says next, about the character of the believer, "And not only so but we glory in tribulations also:

Knowing (and that's the key), knowing what they are for. Knowing that tribulation works patience; Patience is the word HUPOMENO for remain under. It's the word endurance.

BIBLE VERSES

Pt. 2

Romans 7:18 says that no good thing dwells in humans and verse23 says that the law of sin makes humans captive to it.

Romans 8:7-8 says that the carnal (unregenerated) mind of humans are at enmity towards God, refuse to be subject to God's law, and cannot be. Verse 8 says that unregenerate man cannot please God in any way.

This is a quote from Ps. 14:1-3

Eccl. 7:20 says that there is not one human who is righteous in himself, that does not sin; nor who does good.

Is 53:6 says that all of humanity like sheep have gone astray from God.

I think I will stop quoting Scripture now since by these it is abundantly clear that because sin came into the world God created by Adam's sin and in Adam all sinned, we should view unregenerated humans as not having any ability to rectify their sinful disposition. They will inevitable freely choose to sin but are unable to choose what pleases God.

Romans 5:12-14

Think carefully on this soul-searching question.

If your answer is anything other than, "Yes I'm absolutely certain that my sins are forgiven and that Heaven will be my home," then this important message is just for you. The Bible teaches that you need to know and believe these things to settle this matter of your eternal destination:

You must accept that you are a sinner.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" ( Romans 3:23). No one is exempt from this indictment. Everyone has sinned. Romans 5:12 says, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." No one is perfect and no one can live up to God's perfect standard. We are sinners by nature.



You must accept that as a sinner you owe a penalty.

"For the wages of sin is death" ( Romans 6:23a). Because of our sin we owe a debt. This debt is a spiritual death or separation from God in the lake of fire known as Hell. Hell is not a figment of someone's imagination or only a figurative term. Hell is very real. It is a literal burning place. It's not a place where you go because your friends will be there and you want to have a good time. It is a dark, lonely, seething, burning place, and it never ends. It continues to burn for all time.



The worst part is, there is nothing you or I can do on our own to avoid it. Outside of Jesus, it is our final destination. If you are depending on your church membership to get you to Heaven, beware; it's not enough. If you pray a lot hoping to get to Heaven, don't depend on that; it's not enough either. Even if you give a lot of money to a church, it's not enough to gain Heaven. The word "believe" means to trust, to depend on, to rely on. To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ means that you accept the fact that you are a sinner, that as a sinner you owe the sin penalty, and that Jesus Christ died on the cross, was buried, and arose again on the third day to pay the debt you owe.

Hi Pelya.

Consider these verses.

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Pelya have you received Christ as your Lord and Savior?

If so, do you think the blood of the God provided Lamb was adequate? Yes it was!

Christ took your place on the cross and God didn't spare him.

Christ was Judged in your place.

For you to be judged again, Christ died in vain!

John 5:24 reads "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Believers will be judged for their works AFTER salvation NOT "for salvation. 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

Pelya Eternal life is something you have NOW, it's not something you get later!

The same Spirit that saves you, it also seals you! Ephesians 4:30.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 1:24.

God bless you.

Hello Lovealot19,

These are important questions, and you should study for your understanding and conscience. It may take a while but pray and let the Holy Spirit lead you. Do not go to the Scriptures with preconceived ideas, when we do that our eyes and ears are closed to the truth and Holy Spirit.

We know Jesus is the only way John 14:6, Jesus was sent by the Father and He did the will of the Father. God was with/in Jesus Acts 10:38. The works Jesus did were the Father's works, the words Jesus spoke were the Father's, and Jesus was totally obedient to His death, and by that we are made righteous, Romans 5:19.

God's plan was before creation all was in this plan from the beginning to the end and Jesus was the beginning of this plan 1 Peter 1:19-20.

God bless you,

RLW

Sanctification

The process of being made more like Jesus Christ, which is an ongoing process that happens between justification and glorification

Justification

The act of God pardoning sins and accepting someone as righteous, which happens at the time of receiving Christ.

Glorification

The final removal of sin, which happens after the death of a believer

Holy Spirit

The guide that helps people learn, grow, and be transformed into the image of God.

( by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous). Romans 5:19.

Our obedience doesn't make us righteous. Our obedience is a response to the Spirit that works in us. But, sometimes we grieve the Spirit.

This shows that we are not perfect/complete in sanctification,

However we're complete and Perfect in Justification.

We are freely Justified.

We are forever being Sanctified.

We will be Glorified.

God bless.

Many, many Scriptures repeat again and again that there is no salvation through human goodness.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."- Titus 3:5.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."- Eph. 2:8,9.

"Without shedding of blood is no remission."- Hebrews 9:22.

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."- Romans 5:6.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."- Isa. 53:6.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."- I Peter 1:18,19.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."- Rom. 6:23.

Dear sinner, remember that church membership will not save you. If you have been baptized, that cannot save you. Baptism does not save, does not keep anybody saved. It is only an act of duty for those who have already found Christ as their Saviour.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?"- Romans 10:13,14.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

COME LORD JESUS

Hi Poppybrown.

The basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ.

No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that singular event.

Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.

The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God.

Ww look back in history and by faith, believe what is written.

God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time.

Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve verse 20. ( The mother of all living )

The Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin verse21. At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.

Those coats of skin "from a sacrifice made by God" pointed ahead to Christ sacrifice that takes away the sin of the whole world.

John 1:29.

You notice here the word "sin" is singular. This is the penalty of sin! Death. Separation from God.

Jesus came to redeem what was lost.

Read Romans 5:12-21.

God bless.

Continued:

These are examples of people in fear, sickness and death situations and my ways and interpetation to overcome through Jesus Christ is God died /sacrifice on the cross , buried in a grave, after 3 day rose from the dead.

1) A man with health concerns was about to undergo another major surgery, he said that while he was anxious about his health and didn't want to die, he wasn't afraid of being sick or dying. He was asked why -and said he knew that whatever happened, God was in control. My interpetation he had faith ( Psalms 30:2 KJV ) and believed Jesus Christ is God ( Isaiah 56:6 KJV )

2) A trembling woman who had been sick for many years approached Jesus . Then she touched the edge of his cloak and was immediately healed! While she was afraid to speak up about what she had done. Jesus assured her that her faith in him had made her whole. Here is a textual scripture: Mark 5:25-34 KJV My interpetation is meaning she listened to God's commands believing the truth-Jesus Christ is God.( Isaiah 54:10 KJV,) bringing and end to the law Romans 10:4 KJV meaning made well and healed.

Mark 5:33 KJV

33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

3)Sickness and death are things that we all fear in one way or another My interpetation believing in God and not believing in God. But as we look at these grim realities, we need to see them through the lens of a Jesus sacrifice for us My interpetation: ( Matthew 3:2 KJV, Matthew 4:19 KJV, John 3:16 KJV) and God love for us Romans 5:8 KJV.

Matthew 3:2 KJV

And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:19 KJV

And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Have someone ever spoke to you or gave you writings about God's love?

Written and spoken interpetation Word by REDAPPLETREATY4MEONLY

Brother Ronald.

When Adam sinned it was his imperfections manifesting itself.

Adam and Eve eyes were opened after they ate of the fruit. They were now able to see things that were there that they never seen before!

Is it possible that without the knowledge of good and evil sin is not imputed as we see in Romans 5:12-13 and John 9:41.

Let's take a closer look at Romans 5, being that it seems relevant to our discussion.

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(For until the law sin was in the world: BUT SIN IS NOT IMPUTED WHEN THERE IS NO LAW. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

What do we inherit from Adam? Just his offence?

What about his nature before and after the fall?

I'm having trouble presenting this so let me give an example by way of a hypothetical scenario.

Let's imagine Adam and Eve had children before the fall, (eating of the fruit of the tree) and also children afterwards.

Would all of them inherit Adam's offense or just those born afterwards?

I believe they all would because Adam had a nature that was bound to fall.

One that was subject to sin.

As for Christ We've been over Matthew 4:1-11.

That wasn't a test to see if he would sin but rather to prove him.

It was to show he was who the Scripture say he was.

The Son of God.

And you are referring to Hebrews 4:15. My understanding of that is Christ "being in the flesh" he was able to relate to our testing but WASN'T ABLE to Succumb to the testing and sin.

God bless.

Ronald Whittemore

Yes, "sin came into the world through one man (the MAN of sin, son of perdition- John 17:12 combined with 2Thessalonians 2:3&8-9) and death through sin"- Romans 5:12.

.

Hey S Spencer,

All was foreordained in the plan of God before the world was, God, knowing the end from the beginning. In Scripture when God put Adam in the garden, He planted for Adam to take care of, God only gave Adam one command, Genesis 2:16, do not eat from that one tree. This was before God made Eve because God said it was not good that man should be alone Genesis 2:18.

I know we disagree, but the first Adam and the last Adam came into this world without a sinful nature, one was disobedient one was obedient Romans 5:19.

Adam had free will, but the sinful nature did not enter him until Adam chose to be disobedient and ate from that tree that God commanded Adam to not eat from. Romans 5:12 "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin".

Yes, the eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil opened their consciences, and the shame of their disobedience was their nakedness, their sin was exposed, and with the knowledge of good and evil, the thoughts that come from being nude.

Jesus's blood covers our sins and makes our garments white as snow, sorry I was not clear.

God bless,

RLW

Brother S Spencer,

The first Adam, his disobedience brought sin and death into the world, Romans 5:12-19. The last Adam by obedience to God brought forgiveness and life, the resurrection from the dead, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.

Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed, their hearts were uncorrupted and free from sin. After they ate the forbidden fruit their eyes were opened, their consciences were opened to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin replaced the purity they had. They had a sense of fear and disgrace due to their disobedience.

The shame they now felt was due to the sinful nature that entered them and now they no longer perfectly perceived things, their view of their nakedness should be covered. Nakedness was not a sin, but a fallen perception of nakedness brought shame and sorrow they now felt.

As God covered Adam and Eve with coats of skins to cover their shame/nakedness. Our nakedness of shame can be covered with the garment Isaiah 61:10 given by Jesus. We in Jesus shall not be found naked, but clothed, with the garment of Christ's righteousness, our sins covered and cleansed by the blood of Jesus that makes it spotless and white as long as we continue in faith and overcome.

Concerning those that do not die in the Lord, that do not watch, and keep their garments will walk naked, their sins will be open to being seen, Revelation 16:15 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Revelation 20:15.

Every human being, whether they're saved or unsaved, and regardless of their culture, ethnicity, or background, has a conscience, Romans 2:14-15. Inside this conscience is the battle between the flesh and the Spirit Romans 9:1 we can repent and be covered, if not we will be naked and found guilty. We cannot hide what is in our conscience, it records every good and evil we have ever done or thought. I feel this is where we are naked or clothed. Romans 4:6-8 2 Corinthians 1:12 1 Timothy 1:19 Hebrews 9:9 Hebrews 13:18 1 Peter 3:21.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Derek.

You can distance yourself from someone but yet still be close.

I would distance myself from any sinful activity he or she is doing but I would still try to witness to them.

If you find forgiveness hard to do I would try having mercy them.

It's hard to advise from the outside on your situation with this person but we are to consider ourselves and our relationship to the Lord.

Jesus bore our sins while we were yet sinners!

Romans 5:6-8 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I hope this helps.

God bless

Richard

Romans 5:12->by one MAN sin entered into the world, in the Garden of GOD,...yes, by one MAN sin entered in the world as a whole,and passed upon all men,so death passed upon all men,for that all have sinned, then, in consequence, the earth become without form and void because darkness fell upon the face of the earth as a whole, and it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, and men saw the daughters of men that they were fair; then they took them wives of all which they chose,and GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, and the earth become a deep abyss. But the Word, the Word is GOD,GOD Himself,GOD is Spirit,self-executing,He did move among those which kept not their first estate,but left their own habitation, giving themselves over to fornication, so our GOD hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the Judgment of this Great Day,the LORD's Day,the seventh and last Day,or seventh and last millennium.They are set forth for an example of suffering of the vengeance of Eternal fire,GOD is a devouring fire.

Then our GOD,planned the restoration of all things- Acts 3:21-as they were in Eden before the sons of GOD had rebelled themselves and sinned.And the first thing our GOD made according to His Plan was to make again His Light shine in the darkness,so JESUS shouted loudly,saying:Let there be light,and there was light.And the Word,GOD the Father,saw the light,that it was good:and He divided the light from the darkness.In this point started a terrible battle against Satan in the first millennium,and our Omnipotent GOD even from a sinful nature brought forth a holy seed for Himself,Abel( Matthew 23:33-35combined with John 8:44-47).And Genesis 5:3-32 describe the generation of the holy seed of GOD,but until the law sin was in the world:but sin was not imputed when there was no Law.

GOD BLESS

Hello Jaz. In my reading of this verse, I feel that Luke 12:49-53 must be included, Jesus giving this message in the midst of His other teaching in the chapter.

So, taking the whole passage (vv 49-53) into consideration, I see the Lord speaking of what His Coming means, to both Himself & those who are affected by it. By His coming at the Father's appointed time, both the Work of Salvation and also of Judgement had commenced. Of Salvation: that it was always the Divine Plan that He must go through the waters of suffering & death, so overwhelming in its force (not only of pain & horror to the Body, but of the weight of man's redemption in His Spirit & before the Father), that it also pressed & kept Him under till the Work was done. Could anyone else bear such a 'weight of responsibility', that only He could? As Jesus also spoke to the mother of Zebedee's children: "Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? ( Matthew 20:22,23). The day would come when the sons would suffer as Jesus did, but only He could bear the sins of the World, which assured the Father's acceptance & forgiveness to all who came through His Son in faith.

Jesus' Coming not only initiated judgement (where sins would be brought to light, and the faithful & faithless separated), but His Death & Resurrection would also cause division, whether in households, friendships or by community rejection. As Jesus also said in Matthew 10:34-36, "I came not to send peace, but a sword". The Gospel is a Gospel of Peace for those justified by faith (Peace with God, Romans 5:1), but the Gospel can come as a sword, which sets the faithful at variance with those who deny Christ - for our love for Christ must wholly transcend the love shown towards man. If Jesus' 'baptism' through self-sacrifice was so compelling & complete, how should we now live in such Light & Redemption? Excuse these extra thoughts on these verses.

Hey S Spencer,

Thank you, brother, I know we have discussed it before and I think we both respect and care for each other as brothers. I will try not to rehash that discussion forgive me if there is some overlap, but could Christ have sinned your answer is no, I will just use this verse James 1:13, your answer, according to this verse He could not even have been tempted but Jesus was tempted or tested and Jesus stayed obedient to the Father. Temptation or testing is for an answer to whether someone will be obedient or disobedient, Romans 5:19.

1 Timothy 3:16 the word manifest is the Greek word phanero meaning to make visible, make clear. Jesus did that. In the flesh, I ask when did this happen? Did this happen when Mary conceived or when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost and became the Messiah/Christ?

Hebrews 1:1-3 God spoke to us by His Son every word Jesus said was the word of God, not His. Jesus shunned Philip when he asked Jesus to show them the Father, John 14:9-10, every word Jesus said was the Father.

As I have said when God placed Adam in the garden he did not have a sinful nature but he sinned and was disobedient. Jesus was not conceived by man but by the Holy Ghost, Jesus did not have the sinful nature past down by the first Adam, but He was obedient and did not sin.

I did not say anything about the cross but after Jesus prayed in the garden asking the Father if there was any other way Jesus was obedient to the end, being beaten, nailed to the cross, and giving His life for us.

If the first Adam was created with a sinful nature could God say He saw everything He had made, and it was very good? This sinful nature has a sentence of death, and it was after Adam ate the fruit that it was applied, and it spread to all. Adam was the figure of him that was to come, Jesus, the last Adam who by His obedience we have hope. How can one be obedient if they cannot be disobedient? To say Jesus was sinless and obedient becomes a farce.

God bless,

RLW

Hey Jesse,

Yes, brother you understood correctly I believe Jesus if He chose, He could have given into a temptation and been disobedient to His Father. Hebrews 2:18 says He suffered being tempted and in Hebrews 4:15 Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Jesus did not have a sinful nature like we do, He was not from man but was conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost, He was the second man the last Adam.

The first Adam was not formed with a sinful nature, but he sinned and was disobedient, Jesus was sinless and obedient to the end, Romans 5:19. He had to know how it feels to battle temptations to become our priest and mediator. If Jesus was incapable of giving in to temptation His perfect sinless life has no meaning and if He was not capable of being disobedient being obedient to the Father unto death has no meaning.

The miracles Jesus did were not by His power but by the power of the Holy Ghost that God the Father gave to Him without measure John 3:34-35 Acts 10:38 Jesus said many times it was not His will but the Father's will who sent Him, and He also said the words He spoke were not His but the Father, John12:49-50 That is why Jesus's name is called the Word of God, Revelation 19:13.

Now after God raised Jesus from death, He is at His Father's right hand on the throne of God and has been given power of the throne over all until the last enemy, death is under His feet, Ephesians 1:19-23 Revelation 20:14.

I know you may disagree but that is how I understand it.

God bless,

RLW

Matthew (Part 5):

Matthew 5:3 - Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

MAKARIOS is the word that's translated blessed in our English bibles. In Greek, MAKARIOS means to experience the fullness of something. Many Bible translations and commentaries will tell you that it means "Oh how happy," and that the Lord is presenting how to have a happy life.

But technically from the original language and its presentation, what the Lord is saying here is how the disciples of the kingdom of God will experience all the fullness of who God is by these principles.

Matthew 5:5 - Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

This Greek word for meek (PRAOUS), means to be open, or to be receptive. Some commentaries say that it means humble or to be a nice guy. But that's not what it means, and we don't get the meaning from our English translations.

Matthew 5:6 - Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

The word filled is not the normal word for fill. KORTAHSTHAYSONTAI is the Greek word, and it means to be satisfied.

Matthew 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

The Greek word for peacemakers, which is the only place in the bible where it is found, is a special word. It has nothing to do with going out and making peace on the earth. Paul made reference to this in Ephesians 6:15, where he said one of the pieces of armor is to "have your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace."

Peacemakers are Christians that go out with the gospel and say, "You can make peace with God through Jesus Christ." Later, Jesus says, "Don't think that I came to bring peace upon the earth." So, what He is telling us is that it is not earthly. It's coming to tell people that you are fighting against God. Romans 5:1 tells us that "after having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Peacemakers!

Hi Jaz.

Universalism does not teach that every human will be saved because the sacrifice of Jesus was for the sins of the whole world.

Universalism teaches that every human will be saved whether they believe or accept Christ or not.

Everyone gets saved no matter what.

The bible is what teaches that Jesus sacrifice was for the whole world.

John 3:14-16

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Just as anyone in the camp beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.in Numbers 21:9, Anyone who trust in the Lamb of God shall also live.

Here's more connecting verses.

John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the "SIN" of the world.

You noticed I put emphasis on the word SIN here in this verse. It's singular!

It is the penalty of sin that is being spoken of here that was brought in the world by Adam's transgression mentioned in Romans. Romans 5:12-15.

If the penalty of sin was imputed to All men then the Love offering and sacrifice was for all men.

Drop down to Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

John again.

1 John 2:2 states "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

There will be more on this later, God bless.

Page 1.

Thanks GiGi & yes this thread is long & cumbersome - pity to those trying to read it on their phones. What you shared about your early childhood is not dissimilar to mine; for I was brought up in a very godly, Christ-honoring home, taken to Church, attended children's S/School, had devotions/prayer-time at home, & lived according to biblical & parental rules. Only in my late teens, did I go 'off the rails' as my work took me far from home & under the influence of ungodly peers. In other words, what faith & love I had for the Lord earlier had altogether disappeared, preferring my new lifestyle of sin & having no conviction of it.

But in respect of my very early years, my recollection, though limited, was that I was always encouraged to 'accept Jesus into my heart'. This I willingly did, knowing that this was based on my understanding of sin, Jesus' Love & Sacrifice for me, & to receive the Gift of Salvation. Now my emphasis here is on the "Gift". After running amok for about eight years, the Holy Spirit took hold of me in a manner I had never experienced, even in those early years. I was deeply convicted of my sinful life & estrangement from the Lord, & in brokenness & tears confessed my sins. And at that very moment, a very strong sense of being forgiven, acceptance, & an inward renewal (regeneration) had taken place. But what of those early years, similar to yours?

Since being given re-birth & deeply studying the Word, I considered what my state was during those earlier years. I believe that every new-born has a sin nature; you asked, "Why would God have this be?" In my simple way, if Adam was created without a sin nature & then that nature became corrupted because of his sin, then all who have a blood connection to him must also have that fallen nature transferred to them regardless of age or innocence (maybe Romans 5:12 applies here). To Page 2.

Hi David0921.

Thanks again for replying and sorry for such a long delay in me responding, as I mentioned I have been very busy throughout the week.

I have read through the comments.

David, I don't think I can improve on anything that Brothers Chris, Giannis, Ronald and others have shared.

I do not hold the view that you and GiGi has shared.

Here is what I would share with you in answering your question to me.

You asked.

"If Christ indeed paid the full penalty required by the law of God for every sin of every person, how then would anyone stand guilty before the law, their debt having been paid?

David, as I said in an earlier post, "the invitation went out to ALL the world" I have provided verses.

Here's my reasoning.

Romans 5:18. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

We can draw a picture out of the writing to the Hebrews concerning Israel.

We are to join him (God) in his rest.

Hebrews 4:2-11.

Here is how we Join him, vs 3- For we which have believed do enter into rest,

There is a lot more said in this verse alone concerning this topic.

1) This rest was pre-ordained from the foundation of the world. "If" they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

2) There is a condition that has to be met. "IF" they shall enter into my rest.

3) You have to believe to enter into the rest.

Verses 10-11. "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Do you notice verse 11? (Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,) lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The only way to enter in is to believe and the only way "not to enter in" is unbelief.

Running out of space, See part 2.

Hi David.

You asked; "When these verses use the word "world", is it talking about every single person in the world?

Referring to

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: (AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY)...BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

Yes David here's my understanding.

( John specifically included the Greek word holou, which means "whole, entire, all, complete.

Your second question you asked; "How does your understanding of the nature of salvation fit into Romans 3:10-18? Or Romans 9?

My understanding.

Because of Romans 3:10-18 the invitation goes out to everyone in the WHOLE world.

Just as Romans 3:20 goes out to everyone in the whole world.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

If the Ministration of death which slew us went out to everyone then the Gospel and a drink of the living water invitation went out to everyone.

If the ministration of death that slew us doesn't goes to everyone there would be no need for the Gospel.

Paul said when the law came we died.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

David here's what we have in front of us and the scope of our debate.

Either God created EVERYONE, then "by the law" slew EVERYONE but only gave the ability to a few to recieve the invitation and condemn the rest to hell.

Or,, Good created everyone,

by the law, slew everyone and brought light into the world that Light, which lighteth EVERY MAN THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD, as John 1:9 says to offer salvation to everyone.

Which do you believe?

How much worse will things get?

To put it concisely; God's grace and His restraining influence is what is keeping the Tribulation from beginning with all its associated horrors; for as far as I can tell it doesn't have to get any worse as far as the condition of men in general in this dark hour to warrant judgment. I thought of the verse that God is patient with the wicked but is "longsuffering" not wishing anyone to perish but repent (roughly translated verse 2 Peter 3:9). My first search found Nahum 1:3 about God being slow to anger but not leaving the "guilty unpunished." Without getting tangled in Predestination; I will just remind the audience that we were all enemies of God ( Romans 5:10). In some sense whether it is our choice or response to God's calling He determines when the last person comes to Christ before the Rapture.

In some sense; with church being counterculture at this point for anywhere still adhering to the TRUE Gospel a new convert is something even more exciting than the past. Since there is nothing or almost nothing to gain from being accepted in society for becoming a believer today it takes more gumption. I have observed that many who are not involved much with formal church attendance have much discernment especially into the spiritual dimension; and often seem to love the Lord. It could be their fault but often there just isn't either a church teaching truth; or no real active DISCIPLESHIP opportunities either for them to grow OR HELP OTHERS grow. I put that in capital letters because it seems to be such an issue today. Of course for megachurches for the young; thin and attractive delivering shallow messages is no substitute for challenging study; or retreats where one can put their nose to the grindstone and iron can sharpen iron. Just as we can't accept everyone's offer of assistance; we can't dismiss those the Lord brings with their particular gifts who are eager and ready to serve. Yes, even leaders need input!