Discuss Revelation 5 Page 4

I'm looking for the NT scripture that says the earth groans for the coming of the Lord

The verses in Revelation about the incense of the prayers of the saints seem to indicate this. ( Revelation 5:8 and 8:4). This could of course specifically refer to those still suffering on earth; or a combination of them and those in heaven. John's revelation; and Stephen's of Christ STANDING up on His throne right before he died also seem to show understanding behind the veil; as it were.

Obviously; the sin of necromancy which is a form of idolotry becomes a hotly contested point which many would state to show that this cannot be the case; or those who somehow believe in "soul sleep" despite verses to the contrary as scripture shows. It is certain that we are to NOT seek communication the OTHER WAY as to those who are departed. Such occurrences (with the possible exception of Saul and Samuel as recorded in scripture) are without question demons imitating the characteristics of the departed.

We also don't need to be so fixated on what is tangible with the five senses; especially concerning the state of anyone who has passed on from this life and therefore doesn't have a physical body as yet like ours on earth. Those who are able to see the heavenly council (such as angelic and other creatures; as well as demons) are experiencing the spiritua realm; and thus would have a much clearer understanding of the cause and effect of events on the earth; as Revelation indicates. (The experience there could very well have been a literal visit to the future by John as well as understanding the message in the present to the churches). We certainly have evidence of Elijah (who never died) and Moses (who did) talking with Christ. They would have known what was going on with Him; at least related to His impending death. Again; the revealed glory may have been a glimpse of the future as well; or what He always was in preincarnate state.

It certainly seems clear that we will be active participants during all Tribulation judgments; and see those under the throne.

What group is resurrected first, at the seventh trumpet?

Revelation 7:1-8 occurs before the six trumpet, before the day of the Lord, when the 144,000 saints are sealed. Continuing, Revelation 7:9-15, where now it's the seventh trumpet, Revelation 11:15, and the same sealed saints have been resurrected, and are now standing in heaven. We know it's the saints because we're told they came out of the great tribulation.

(same scene, different angle)

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;*10,000 x 10,000 = 100,000+ remaining = 144,000

Look at the moment the saints are resurrected? Revelation 11:11-12

Look who the 5th seal saints were told to wait for before He judges the earth. Revelation 6:9-11 & Revelation 11-7

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul was not talking to the general population, he was talking to his kind, first fruits, fellow elite, saints, dead and alive. The scriptures bear this out, who they are, and is always up for debate if you think you are a first fruit.

Philip,

I'm not sure if you're asking a question here but here is my understanding of Revelation 4:5. This will be the expression of God's judgment whenever He judges. We see it throughout the book of Revelation. There will be lightnings and thunderings and sounds coming out from the throne.

And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God. We saw these seven spirits back in Revelation 1:4. Revelation 5:6 will tell us that these seven spirits of God are the seven eyes of God going throughout the world. It is the seven fold complete ministry of the Holy Spirit held by the Jews and of course the scripture teaches that.

In Zechariah Chapters 4 and 10, it also tells us that the seven lamps are the seven eyes of the Lord, the all-seeing one. So before the throne, the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.

Hey Philip Murray,

I agree there is not any scripture that states at any time anyone goes to heaven. And Jesus is the only one who has gone to heaven from where He came John 3:13. Scriptures have been used to create a beautiful picture with the premise of not having to go through the tribulation that is coming but will be taken to heaven, adding a return of Jesus before His second coming.

There are several names Morgan Edwards, Edward Irving, a teenage girl in the lowlands of Scotland named Margaret MacDonald, and more, but spread by John Darby, and C.I. Scofield with the study bible with footnotes helped promote the doctrine. This is a deception I feel that Satan is behind, for those who are still living at the end (my opinion).

Where is in the air? Is it heaven? In Strong's 109 air (The air, lower air we breathe). In Strong's 3772 air Heavens, the visible heavens, the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, the spiritual heavens. The word air 109 was used in 1Thessalonians 4:17 and seems as it says, it's no higher than the clouds. Now, this is a gathering in the air-breathing sky. Jesus will reign on this earth and also the elect, Revelation 11:15 2 Thimothy 2:12 Revelation 5:10 on earth not in heaven and on the new earth Revelation 21:1 Revelation 22:1-5.

No scripture says we are taken up to heaven after we meet Jesus but there is the scripture that says where Jesus goes when He returns. On that day His feet will stand Zechariah 14:4, He will send His angels to gather the elect, after the tribulation, Matthew 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27. The earth is round, and the elect will be global when gathered will be in the air going to meet Jesus.

I could say more but it is up to us individually to pray and study for the understanding what is the truth led by the Holy Spirit. Consider the context when you study.

God bless,

RLW

These are indeed good questions, Horace. To the first one, I can't discern a clear biblical answer to give you, as we have verses that show us that even holy angels of God have in the past rebelled against Him, sinned & banished from His Presence. But I sense that, in Heaven, we will not go Satan's route as per my thoughts on your Question 2.

You asked, "Will we remember all the sin that we committed in this life?" Revelation 5:9,10: "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

We get a small view of the 24 Elders falling before the Lamb of God worshipping Him in words & song, being reminded that they were the redeemed only by Jesus' shed Blood unto God the Father. I would think that if they are in such thankfulness of their privileged & glorious position before the Throne, they are also in memory of what they have been redeemed from. Even when we are called to share our testimony of salvation, whether of salvation from much sin & wickedness, or of a quiet but clear realization of one's sinful estranged position before God, there's always joy from us when we share it; because His Salvation was so great & enduring in the midst of our weak, fickle & sinful lives. We were once destined for hell, justly deserved, without any hope, but Jesus stepped in & drew us to His Light. I sense that those 24 Elders had hearts of such praise for that great Redemption, being released from sin's shackles & eternal punishment, only by the shed Blood of the Lamb. I know our praise will be the same - and we'll have all eternity to praise our Lord & our God for such a Redeemer & such a Plan of Redemption.

Donna.

Why the son of man?

Part 3 of 3.

Summary

The Son of Man is a title that was used exclusively by Jesus - His disciples never addressed Him as such. Jesus used it to emphasize His humanity. The title goes back to the Book of Daniel where the Son of Man would inherit the everlasting kingdom of God. It is a designation of the Messiah. At His trial Jesus acknowledged that He indeed was the Son of Man - the one who would bring in God's everlasting kingdom. When the religious leaders heard this they accused Him of blasphemy - making Himself equal with God. The purpose of the title seems to be Jesus' own emphasis on His humanity.

By Don Stewart.

Side note:

The revelation of the Lord coming by miraculous birth was given to them as a sign by Isaiah. but I guess that didn't explain his humanity. after all Immanuel means God with us. Matthew 1:23.

Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.

And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14.

I believe Jesus humanity ties to the kinsman redeemer instituted by Moses in Leviticus 25:48-49.

And you also see it carried out in the book of Ruth.

In Revelation 5:2-5. you see John weep because no one was able to loosen the seven seals. For one you had to be worthy and second you had to be a kinsman. "John was looking for a MAN" Jesus humanity qualified him.

I hope that helps.

God bless.

Solomon got the earthly visible form of wisdom and all of the other things to reign over a visible people and nation of this age and in that no one will beat him.

However, the book of Ecclesiates shows that Isaiah 40:8-9 still holds true over all that Solomon was given in this visible life.

Jesus Christ has the heavenly invisible form of power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing ( Revelation 5:12) hidden in the Old Testament scriptures that Solomon was only an earthly shadow of. Christ is the substance. Christ Himself is the Word of God that is eternal and that gives the abiding eternal life that Isaiah spoke of, but that Word is hidden from all those who only seek what is under the sun. Set your mind on Him and by faith abide in Him to bear fruit rather than setting your mind on the things Solomon got that all passed away when his life ended on earth. Being super rich in the things that pass away is nothing compared to the poorest person that has the smallest treasure in heaven that is eternal. The only thing left of Solomon that has lasted is his contribution to the scriptures that reveal and point us to Christ, and that is the only thing that will last in any generations we leave behind at the end of our earthly lives and in eternal life.

Christ is King of kings who's reign for now is only revealed and proclaimed through a foolish nation and people as far as the men of this world and its wisdom are concerned, but we are born of the wisdom of God revealed only to those who are in Christ. Focus your prayers on how to live wisely among the people of God's Kingdom that stand on a sea of glass more than any earthly nation like the one Solomon reigned over or that you see tossed about by the waves of the sea today. What we see is passing away.

Hi Rose.

Thanks for your reply,

Here's what I interpret out of the verses you have given. When I look at Revelation 14:1. I take this to be the same 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:4. "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

This group here is 144,000 out of Israel being sealed for service.

And Revelation 7:5-8, reaffirms that these are all Israelites. "No Gentiles"

The group in Rev. 5.9. is said to be the redeemed out of EVERY Nation of all sorts of people of the earth.

Revelation 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; " This group is unnumbered "

Also the locations are different.

In Revelation 5 they're around the throne of God,

In Revelation 14:1. They're on mount zion. "Jerusalem. Psalms 2:6.

You said,

"(God said he chose )only 144,000 to reign."

I'm sorry but I don't see where " HE SAID HE CHOSE only "144,000 to reign on earth or in Heaven.

I see that you have a different view.

I just wanted to share mine.

God bless.

Hi Bonnie,

The words Jew and Gentile; The word Gentile used from Hebrew goy and nokhri and Greek thn. Gentile is derived from the Latin word gentilis, meaning belonging to a clan, a family, a nation, and people, and even those not Roman citizens. In both Hebrew and Greek, there is no word even approaching the way Gentile is used today. In the bible, the same Hebrew word was translated nations, heathen, Gentiles, and people, and the Greek word was translated the same even when it is about the Israelites.

The term Jew did not even appear until the southern kingdom of Judah was taken captive to Babylon. Jew is an abbreviated slang term for Judahite, a resident of the southern kingdom of Judah. I have heard people refer to Abraham as a Jew and the Israelites in Egypt before the exodus as Jews. All who are of the Jewish religion are not jews as is thought today.

We see in Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 Jesus does not care for those who call themselves Jews when they are not. Jesus came from the tribe of Judah Isaiah 11:1-10 2 Timothy.2:8 Revelation 5:5. Jesus is our high priest not from the tribe of Levi but of the tribe of Judah, Hebrews 7:11-15. From the tribe of Judah, our Lord's new high priesthood signals a change from the Old to the New Covenant, a new order.

Some argue that under Mosaic law, tribal affiliation is through the birth father only. There is one case we can see in Numbers 27:4-8 if Mary had no brothers her father's inheritance would pass to her. Jesus through her will be counted of the tribe of Judah. If we cannot accept Jesus being from the tribe of Judah, we cannot accept Him as our savior who gave His life for us.

There is more but may this help.

God bless,

RLW

The Lamb and the 144,000

14:1 they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God,e and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

Hey SolaScrip,

Is there scripture outside Revelation that confirms an exact 1000 years? The answer is no. Are there false teachers out there? The answer is yes, there are many, 1 John 4:1. Are there scriptures that say the Son of God will reign on earth? The answer is yes. Psalm 2:6-9 Psalm 22:27-31 Isaiah 2:1-4 Isaiah 9:6-7 Isaiah 24:21-23 Jeremiah 23:5 Ezekiel 20:33-44 Ezekiel 39:21-29 Zechariah 2:10-13 Zechariah 8:2-3 Zechariah 14:1-9 Matthew 19:28 Revelation 11:15 Revelation 20:4 and more.

Is there any scripture that says people will go to or reign in heaven? The answer is no. Are there scriptures that say the elect will reign with Jesus on earth? The answer is yes. Daniel 7:27 2 Timothy 2:11-13 Revelation 5:10. Are there scriptures that describe how things change after Jesus returns? The answer is yes. Zechariah 8:4 Isaiah 11 Isaiah 60:15 Isaiah 65:18-25. These people will be alive on the second coming of Jesus, they will have the opportunity to live longer if they choose to obey God.

Are there things that have not been revealed to us? The answer is, yes? Jesus will return and set up the kingdom here on earth and He will put all enemies under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25. Will death still be during the time Jesus is ruling? The answer is yes. The purpose is to fulfill the rest of the scriptures with Jesus, Israel, the Gentiles, and creation that has not yet been fulfilled.

The only scripture that gives us 1000 years is Revelation, but many scriptures tell us the kingdom will be set up on earth. We have these, Numbers 14:21 Psalms 115:16 Micah 4:1-3 Matthew 5:5 Matthew 6:10. Not to debate, with the time it will take I cannot say the 1000 years are false.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Raymond.

Yes, I believe we will see our loved ones in Heaven, and yes, "In Heaven"

I like the scripture free has given and king David seems to suggest the same.

"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me".

2 Samuel 12:23.

Here's a few of many scriptures that suggests we will be in Heaven.

Revelation 4:1-2. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 4:4.

Revelation 4:10.

Revelation 5:1-3. Notice verse 3- "And no man in heaven", nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." Not only are there people in Heaven and on earth here, but this is also before the tribulation!!

Revelation 5:13-14. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

There is several different views on whether we will be in heaven or not.

I'm not interested in going into that debate besides your question was "Will we see our loved ones in Heaven' and answering your question is most important.

God bless.

Hi Gary.

I will share my thoughts.

The Lord gives the outline of the book in chronological order and division of this book into 3 time periods of past, present, and future in Revelation 1:19. The things he has seen, "past tense" is the Glorified risen Christ, the things which are, "present tense" the Church here and now and the better of over 2000 years. And the things after these things, "future" Gods program after Revelation ch 2 and 3. "Church here on earth"

That brings us to Revelation 4:1. "The Lord says I will show you the things hereafter" After What? The Church things!

( This is the things future tense described in Revelation 1:19.) " Things shall be hereafter ".

Note: Revelation 4:1. We have an open door! Everyone around the throne had to go through that door. Who's the door?

In Revelation 4:2. The scene is in Heaven.

In Revelation 1:20. The Lord tells us that the seven golden candle sticks/lampstands in Revelation 1:12-13. Is the Churches. (The Church as a whole over the ages ). In Revelation ch 4 the lamp stands is in heaven.

"After these things" you see the 24 elders/representatives in white robes, who has been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and according to Revelation 5:9-10. They are kings and priest. Only three in scripture is called kings and priest, That's the Lord, Melchizedek, and the Church. 1 Peter 2:9.

Hopefully that helps.

God bless.

Kinsman redeemer by the humanity of Jesus Christ.

We see the kinsman redeemer in Leviticus 25:25. and we see it carried out in the book of Ruth chapters 1-4.

we see in Revelation 5:1-5. we see a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. and no one was able to open the book but the Lord Jesus. If you notice verse 3 it had to be a "MAN"/Human. And he had to be able. Perfect/Sinless. and he has to be willing. This could only happen by the deity of Christ in his Human form.

(His deity, He cannot sin.) (His humanity, He can take on our sin.) His humanity makes him our kinsman redeemer.

References:

Galatians 4:4-5.

Hebrews 2:9-11.

Luke 4:18:19. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. "Restitution of all things"

Acts 3:21. (I believe this is yet to come)

I believe the jubilee foreshadowed this.

study Leviticus 25:8-25.

What are we presently redeemed from? Galatians 3:13. The law condemned us and faith in Christ justified us.

Galatians 3:5-13.

However, our bodies have not been redeemed yet, If so there will be no more death.

Also, Romans 8:19-23.

GOD BLESS.

One important aspect of Jesus humanity that I believe get lost in the shuffle is he is our Kinsman redeemer. He couldn't be that without his humanity.

Galatians 4:4-5. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Revelation 5:2-9.

God bless.

Alex. Your two comments are long & would require a lot of unnecessary space to deal with each point. But to take up one of those points: "4 Times in johns Gospel he Jesus said he wd raise them up the last day . How cd he do that unless it was by his spirit that is poured out on everybody THE LAST DAY WHICH IS THE DAY WE ARE IN NOW."

This belief of yours, I would say, is typical of how you interpret Scripture. In John's Gospel, this phrase appears in John 6:39,40,44,54 (I believe these are the verses you refer to). You've obviously read them but since you want to believe that all will be raised to live forever with the Lord (in that coming day), that these verses apply to everyone. But did you not read also: "all which he hath GIVEN ME I should lose nothing"; "that every one which seeth the Son, and BELIEVETH ON HIM"; "the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM"; "WHOSO EATETH MY FLESH, AND DRINKETH MY BLOOD". What is the thought in those portions? Are you unable to see the common thread running through the verses, that Jesus was speaking about those who are found IN CHRIST (those GIVEN, those who BELIEVE, those being DRAWN by God, those who partake in the merits of Christ's Sacrifice). None of these Truths can ever be applied to the sinful, unbelieving, ungodly of this world nor of the world to come.

As far as I can recall, you never speak of having faith when coming to Christ & to be justified by God ( Ephesians 2:8: God's grace plus our faith = salvation). I wonder why that is. Maybe, it would negate your belief that all people will eventually be saved, because faith in Christ's redemptive work can only apply now, or else it's no longer 'faith'. Also, you don't write about Satan & his evil spirits also getting redeemed & enjoying holiness of life - after all you will quote verses such as Revelation 5:13 which should support your belief. Alex, please read & understand the Scriptures as given ("rightly dividing the Word"), & not try to re-write the Holy Bible.

Hi Sister GiGi.

Great read. I like to add some input on the blessings Jacob gave his sons.

I believe the blessings to Abraham and Issac went through the Lineage of Judah.

Here's why.

Genesis 22:18.

Galatians 3:14.

Galatians 3:16.

Now here is Judahs blessing.

Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

THE SCEPTRE SHALL NOT DEPART FROM JUDAH, NOR A LAWGIVER FROM BETWEEN HIS FEET, UNTIL SHILOH COME; AND UNTO HIM SHALL THE GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE BE.

Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk. Genesis 49:8-12.

Abraham's blessing to Issac was because he was Promised! He was God's doing! We are children of Promise as well.

Galatians 4:28.

Ishmael was the works of their own hands "Works of the flesh " ( This has a lot of spiritual application )

Here is the Contrast of the two.

Galatians 4:29-31.

Verse 30 says Issac is the heir this connects him to the promise on through Jacob on Judah to Christ. Revelation 5:5.

What's interesting is Jacob blessing Joseph sons out of order instituting the reverse sovereign order of the firstborn as seen in Romans 9:11-12. Romans 9:11.

("that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;")

I believe we see the contract of Works and Grace, Flesh and Spirit, The narrow gate and the wide gate. And the putting asleep of Abraham when the unconditional covenant was made. All in These verses.

God bless you and Good night.

Brother Rick, does man have knowledge of God, is this not part of the gospel, man has no knowledge of God.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of KNOWLEDGE; because they have rejected KNOWLEDGE, I will also reject thee that thou shall be no PRIEST to me ......( Revelation 5:10)

God is THE WORD, man has no KNOWLEDGE of the words (truth) of God.

Revelation 2:26 He that overcometh and keepeth MY WORKS to the end, to him will I give POWER OVER THE NATIONS.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as a vessel they shall be broken to shivers; even as I

received of my Father ( Psalms 2:8-10).

I've gone to church all my life and never once heard that God's elect are going to govern the nations.

Why is this SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE not taught, because man's doctrine of hell is taught instead, and believed.

NO KNOWLEDGE.

Brother Rick:

Romans 8:19 For the earnest EXPECTATION of CREATION (creation is everything and everyone) WAITETH for the MANIFESTATION of the SONS OF GOD.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made SUBJECT to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,

Romans 8:21 For the creature itself ALSO shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

These verse say that when all the ELECT of God have been gathered; they, with Christ, will DELIVER creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

What do you believe is your purpose, in the kingdom of God here on earth, going to be.

Revelation 5:10 And hath made us unto OUR GOD kings and priest: and we shall reign (rule and govern) ON THE EARTH.

Look how closely these 2 prophets parallel each other. Ten thousand x ten thousand and thousands of thousands.

Daniel 7:8-10 &

Revelation 5:8-11

Hi Robert.

There's two popular views, One is they're the 12 Apostles and the sons of Jacob.

The other view is they represent The Church/ Redeemed.

Because of what's mentioned in Revelation 5:8-10.

Revelation 1:6.

and 1 Peter 2:5-9.

Revelation 5:8-10. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

What's interesting is what's mentioned in Revelation 5:6. in conjuction with Revelation 2:1.

Seems to be a change of location In Revelation Ch 2 and 3 Jesus is in the midst of the Church on Earth, by the time we get to Revelation 4:1. The scene is in heaven!! And Jesus is in the midst of the Church in Revelation 5:6.

Revelation 5:6. And I beheld, and, lo,-

-" IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE AND OF THE FOUR BEASTS, AND IN THE MIDST OF THE ELDERS, STOOD A LAMB"

as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

If this is the Church they're in Heaven it seems to suggest a pre trib Rapture.

God bless.

Brother S Spencer:

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they (the ELECT). They have become Son's of God, to judge the earth.

For WITHOUT are those raised back in the flesh to be judged.

This judgement is happening on earth after the second resurrection (Could take a thousand years or more, this is hinted at in the prophets).

Revelation 5:10 And hath made us unto our God kings and priest to REIGN ON EARTH.

Revelation 2:26 An he that overcometh, and keepeth MY WORKS unto the end, will I GIVE POWER over the nations: (that are raised back to earthy flesh to be judged)

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule (JUDGE) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter they shall be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father ( Psalms 2:8-10).

Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be (lake of) A FIRE, and the the house of Joseph A FLAME ( Luke 16:24), and the house of Esau as STUBBLE, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

Obadiah 1:21 And SAVIOURS (Christ and his brothers the SON'S OF GOD) shall come upon mount Zion to JUDGE the house of Esau, and the Kingdom (ON EARTH) shall be the LORD'S.

Jeremiah 51:19-23

Only the elect will have a glorified body at this time, all other will still have earthly bodies.

The conclusion of all things.

Revelation 22:1-7.

Let's skip ahead to 2 neglected verses.

Revelation 22:10-11. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Here's where the unjust will remain unjust, and the just will remain just. Meaning judgement is past tense by the time we get here.

Revelation 22:12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Sounds familiar? ( 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.)

Revelation 22:14-15. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Verse 14 we have the redeemed! They're the just that will stay just mentioned in verse 11. How did they do his commandments? By Atonement!

Romans 3:24-28.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Also: 1 John 2:1-2.

And Hebrews 10:14-17.

Revelation 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

God bless.

Brother Dan:

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priest: and we shall reign ON EARTH.

Yes, there will be animals.

Sister GiGI, you are correct, doctrines are TEACHINGS, that man accepts as TRUE, but are those teachings TRUE. Man has TEACHING that CONTRADICT GOD'S WORD, thus those TEACHINGS are not TRUE. ( Revelation 12:9)

Man believes salvation is his choice and not God's choice, contradicting scriptures. Man TEACHES this.

John 15:16 You have not chosen me but I have chosen you, and ordained you ..... Man does not TEACH this.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that God sent the Son to be Saviour of the world. Man TEACHES the SON is going to fail saving the world because it's man's choice and not God's Choice. Man TEACHES this. ( Revelation 2:24)

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN (even those that don't believe in this AGE ( Romans 9:18-21), specially those that believe (in the AGE).

1 Timothy 4:11 These things (saviour of all men) COMMAND AND TEACH. Many are called (to teach this) FEW are chosen.

Man TEACHES that those who don't CHOOSE Christ are going to HELL. Man TEACHES this. These TEACHINGS contradict all the above scriptures. ( Revelation 12:9).

Thy KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE.

Psalms 22:27 ALL the ENDS of the WORLD shall remember and TURN unto the LORD: and ALL the kindreds of the nation shall WORSHIP before thee.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that setteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Man not only does man NOT teach this, they don't BELIEVE this is TRUE. ( Revelation 12:9)

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things have been subdued unto him. then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be ALL IN ALL.

Man does not TEACH this nor even believe it ( Revelation 12:9).

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Brother Kevin, Christ is reigning NOW, the kingdom of God came when Christ was RESURRECTED, so, YES, the earth is being populated during his REIGN. His reign want end until he has SUBDUED all things to himself ( 1 Corinthians 15:25-28). In this AGE he is only CHOOSING and CAUSING the ones to be priest ( Revelation 5:10) in his kingdom to BELIEVE ( Philippians 1:29). The feast of the weeks is the shadow in the Old Testament, the wheat and rye were harvested first (it was only a small portion of the crop that would be harvested that year). You see references to wheat in Christ parables (we are the WHEAT).

When the second resurrection has happened, all the inhabitants of the world from Adam to the resurrection of the dead, will be raised back into their terrestrial flesh. They are going to be judged and brought to truth. It appears from some of the prophets words that this judgement could last a long time. Man may once again live in terrestrial flesh to be hundreds of years old, So, yes, the earth could be repopulating during this AGE. In the Old testament the feast of the tabernacles was when the remainder of the harvest was brought IN (after the WHEAT was harvested). We are the WHEAT (first resurrection) those in the second resurrection are the remaining harvest, to be harvested in the feast of the in gathering or feast of the tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:4 And his (Christ) feet shall stand in that day (Day of the Lord) on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half the mountain shall move toward the north, and half the mountain toward the south.

This prophecy ALSO must be spiritually discerned.

When Christ in his ministry stood on the mount of Olives, this became reality, but the mountain and valley are, SIGNIFIED, and not not literal. Mountains and valleys and hills are often SIGNIFIED as PEOPLE

Hello Free. I'm sorry that I missed your comment to me, but will address it now. My apologies.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 11, the apostle is speaking about this relationship within the New Covenant. Before Jesus came to Earth as a babe, the Bible tells us that He was the Word of God ( John 1:1-14). In other words, God manifested Himself to His people, Israel, through the giving of His Word & by His Spirit through His prophets. But now in these last days (i.e. New Covenant days - post Cross), He has spoken to us by His Son, that Word Who was made Man ( Hebrews 1:1,2).

So, now when we see Jesus, He is seen (in the NT), as God made flesh, died, buried, resurrected, & ascended to sit at the Father's right Hand ( Luke 22:69; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12). Jesus holds within Himself the full divinity of God His Father, all His Glory, & receives all the worship ( Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:12), but He now remains distinct in 'bodily' form because of His incarnation. And this is a picture of how we will be when translated to live in Heaven ( 1 John 3:2).

Therefore, God as Jesus' Father will always be at the Head, then Jesus as His only begotten Son next in position, then man as God's first creation in God's Image, & then woman made out of man, both of them bearing God's Image.

I don't understand your statement: "Also how do you say we are not under the old law but then makes new laws for women?" The only way I can understand your statement is to say that under the old Law, there was neither need nor provision for women preaching in the Church; there was no Church. This "ordinance" that Paul delivered ( 1 Corinthians 11:2) is entirely based on the risen Christ & His Church - nothing at all to do with any 'old' Law or whether the women of old ministered as prophets, judges, warriors, etc. Under the New Covenant, there is also a new order in His Body, as for those who now worship God in spirit & in Truth. Blessings.

Sister Sacha across the pond, good memory, Numbers 14:21, we also see in Psalm 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. We also see when Jesus comes to set up the kingdom here on earth, in Zechariah 14:4. Also we will reign here on earth 2 Timothy 2:12 Revelation 5:10 Revelation 11:15

I agree anytime we study the Bible we need to keep in mind how our fleshly mind works. For most of our life, we function with our subconscious mind with little to no thought at all. We have programmed our minds with traditions, teaching, and things we learn by what we see and do.

Preconceived ideas imprinted in our minds and when we read or hear a reading a picture automatically pops in our mind and it is two steps ahead of what we are reading, seeing, or hearing. A small test, read the following sentence quickly, one time.

Mary had little lamb its fleece white snow everywhere Mary the lamb sure to go.

Did you fill in the missing words unwillingly or did you stumble trying to read it because you have heard it so many times? I know this is not biblical but it could be if it helps study. It might not be we have made up our mind, it is more like our mind made it up own its own unless we can with prayer and consciously clear our mind.

Sorry, I got wordy, love reading yours and Mishael's posts, instead of contentious I would use a saying that started near to where you live, from medieval jousts, you wear your heart on your sleeve.

God bless,

RLW

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The understanding of God & His Son Jesus meant much more than Jesus appearing at birth as the Son of God - it meant that Jesus proceeded out from God ( John 16:27,28).

You would not be denying the Son of God by referring to Jesus as God (always within the Deity from whence He came at the first). Jesus, as God's Word, was always within the Godhead. The fact that He became human can't deny Him His Divinity (or else, He wouldn't be worshipped in Heaven: Revelation 5:1-14; & holding the descriptions of God: Revelation 1:8,11,17,18). If He weren't part of the Godhead, how could He receive worship from the heavenly hosts?

"Can a person receive salvation and be a Christian without believing in the trinity?" you ask. I believe he can be. One doesn't have to know & understand all doctrines or have read the Bible through, to attain salvation, except to come in contrition, an earnest yearning for salvation, & that through faith in the Cross. But after knowing the Word, & rejection of the Deity of Christ, I have no opinion on what is God's matter alone.

Two questions from me, which I have asked several times before on KJBO, without answer:

1. Why did God have to send His only begotten to die for us - couldn't a special Heaven-prepared lamb not do the job? Leaving aside the prophecy speaking of a Man coming in David's lineage, since prophecy is only God's Word sent out after God's Determination first.

2. If John 1:1-14 speaks of God's Word being with Him & of Him, & that Word was given a human body & dwelt among His people, what other meaning can be given to these words, other than a clear belief of Christ's Deity? Why do those who reject Jesus' pre-existence fail to give an exposition of these verses? Every blessing.