Revelation
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Therefore, if we had only John 3:16 to understand the afterlife (whether it exists or not), then we could well believe that 'perish' clearly means a complete cessation of life, as in someone (the body) who perishes in a house fire or perishes by drowning. But in relation to the Scriptures, we know that God has given us a spirit & that spirit is identifies who we are, given life by God, with an outer covering (a body) to house it, yet the spirit can never perish (die). Genesis 2:7; Zechariah 12:1; Job 32:8; 1 Corinthians 2:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Ecclesiastes 3:21; Ecclesiastes 12:7.
And then we have the Judgement of God upon all, where those who belong in God's family, living a life consecrated to Him, are eternally secure from damnation, whereas all unbelievers (and their spirits can never be destroyed), suffer under God's condemnation. If only death was our final punishment for rejecting Christ, then we all still have to die as those in sinful, corrupt bodies; none can escape. This is a defective Gospel as most would prefer to cease to exist without any punishment & live life to the full, not answerable to God. But Christ's Sacrifice was to redeem lost sinful souls, not from death, but from God's eternal Punishment. Revelation 20:15; Revelation 21:8; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 13:49,50; Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
Just a few Scriptures to show the Truth of an Eternal suffering in Hell & not simply disappearing forever in the grave. Every spirit (of man) is accountable to God.
I read all your posts, thank you for continuing they are helpful, seems there have not been many discussions lately. In your part 29 every one of us shall give an account of himself and you gave a very good description of the fire we also see in 1 Corinthians 3, I had a dream about that once.
I understand many believe the white throne judgment is only for the lost and the Bema seat judgment of Christ is for all that is saved. My understanding we see those in the first resurrection and Revelation 20:4 judgment is given to those who will reign with Christ in the millennium.
There will be 1000 years and there will be those who accept Jesus and those who will not as we see when Satan is released from the bottomless pit, he goes out to deceive again and we see when they go up to and surround the camp of the saints their number is as the sands of the sea. People will die during these 1000 years.
Jesus's reign is to be until all enemies are destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 and we see that the last enemy is death, death along with the grave is cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14 and in 20:15. My understanding the second and last resurrection, those who were not in the first resurrection will be judged in the white throne judgment and whosoever was not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire, then the new heaven and the new earth.
In part 30, well done; I see these precious stones and what they are building that may be almost finished, Revelation 21:9-27 and I believe this new city is made up of each believer's stone.
Thanks again brother
God bless,
RLW
Brother, what you do is appreciated, you inspire study. I hope you do not mind this is my understanding, you say Jesus is not sitting on the right of God on His throne, that is an idiom, this means it is saying this is the person that has authority and power, and I agree but was given authority and power, but not with we will not see Jesus, Revelation 21:22. If we also read Ephesians 1:17-23 along with Acts 5:31 it says God exalted Jesus, exalted, the Greek word hupsoo means to lift or raise up, to exalt, raise high.
Ephesians 1:20-21, God raised Jesus and set Him; the Greek word kathizo means make to sit; I set, appoint a physical position of the power of the throne, that is God's divine power and authority over all of creation. After Jesus was raised from the dead, Psalm 8:6 Philippians 2:9-10. This will be until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. The throne can also mean sharing in honor and glory by overcoming as we see in Revelation 3:21.
Jesus has been given this position, we know God placed Jesus above all in heaven and earth and under the earth Ephesians 1:19-21. Jesus was raised in a glorified body, and we will be raised in a body as His, Philippians 3:21. Jesus ascended and is in heaven in that glorified body, Acts 1:10 and when He returns it will be in that same glorified body, Revelation 19.
The other words that throw light on this are Matthew 28:18 and John 13:3, given the Greek word didomi which means to give, to give something to someone, to bestow a gift, to appoint to an office, to supply, furnish necessary things. Something given to you that you did not have before it was given like salvation and eternal life is given, godliness, 2 Peter 1:3-8.
We also have Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me of my Father" delivered the Greek word paradidomi a close word to didomi properly to give, hand over, to deliver over with a sense of close personal involvement.
Thank you and God bless,
RLW
1. ** Psalm 34:18**: "The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit." This verse reassures us that God is close to those who are grieving.
2. ** Matthew 5:4**: "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted." This reminds us that mourning is acknowledged and that comfort will come.
3. ** 2 Corinthians 1:3-4**: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction." This verse emphasizes God's role as a source of comfort in times of sorrow.
4. ** Revelation 21:4**: "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." This verse offers hope for a future without pain and loss.
5. ** Isaiah 41:10**: "Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand." This verse reassures us of God's presence and support during difficult times.
6. ** Psalm 147:3**: "He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds." This verse speaks to God's healing power for those who are hurting.
These verses can serve as reminders of God's love, comfort, and presence during times of profound loss. If you or someone you know is struggling, it may also be helpful to seek support from a trusted friend, family member, or counselor. If you have more questions or need further assistance, feel free to ask!
John 14:2 - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:9-13 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Read More...)
1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Revelation 22:1-5 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. (Read More...)
Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Matthew 6:19-21 - Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: (Read More...)
Luke 12:33-34 - Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. (Read More...)
1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; (Read More...)
Revelation 21:22-27 - And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. (Read More...)
Hebrews 11:16 - But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
2 Tim 3:16,
Ps 119:104-105.
In the end; as my last post alluded to whether it is all predestined or man's future actions are taken into account at least in part or even if we think it is totally up to man where we end up we know that God is good and fair and eventually a certain number will be in heaven as well as hell. I have brought up the concept of life as a play on a stage where eternal realities in our time and place through our lives is acted out and various individuals and spiritual entities are all part of the overall theme which centers on God's script as it were. This obviously reduces life to a simplistic level but I think it merits somewhat how things are orchestrated so that in fullness of time all things come to pass ( Gal. 4:4). As this verse shows in Galatians Christ came at the "fullness" or correct time; just as His judgments come when sin is at the fullest. We see that concept with Genesis 15:16 and the Amorites; and surely when the Tribulation takes effect. ( Rev. 14:15).
As to the individual; there is a set time for everything from birth to death and judgment to follow ( Heb. 9:27).
Looking to this subject I think we all would agree that no one in hell will be able to have a genuine beef with God that He didn't provide a way to come to Him as not being one of the "elect". The hard truth is that without Christ God Himself is our enemy (we are at "enmity" with God: Romans 8:7; etal). There is; in fact no praise of God in hell ( Isaiah 38:18). Without the Lord we are all sadly "cowards" and that is a major and first indictment in Revelation 21:8). As much as the suffering of the lost they have no desire to die to self. Everything of this world is passing as a vapor but the unsaved do not wish to die to themselves. What is bigger than this; however is that they don't want to accept God's only remedy for the situation; the bad news of their own state isn't believed and they think their good works can save them.
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(world of Devil)are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.
...
18And the nations were(WILL BE)angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of GOD was(will be)opened in heaven,and there was seen(then will be seen)in his temple the ark of his testament.
Re.21:8-But the fearful(COWARDS),and unbelieving,and the abominable,and murderers,and whoremongers,and sorcerers,and idolaters,and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:which is the second death.
Get ready
1Corinthians 15:24-27
24The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and power. (according 2Peter 3:7-18)
25For he must reign, till he hath PUT ALL ENEMIES under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For GOD hath put all things under His feet.But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
Get ready
Revelation 21:2-4
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from GOD out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and GOD himself shall be with them, and be their GOD. And GOD shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Are you ready? they that are ready will be with Him to the marriage: and the door is shut. The foolish virgins still are far away buying oil.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;they did eat,they drank,they bought,they sold,they planted,they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven,and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
What was there or what happened in Sodoma,and Gomorra,and in the neighboring cities? Well,GOD sent two men there.And they said unto Lot,Hast thou here any besides?son in law,and thy sons,and thy daughters,and whatsoever thou hast in the city,bring them out of this place:For we will DESTROY THIS PLACE,because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord;and the Lord hath SENT US to DESTROY IT-Gen.19:12-13.
And Lot went out,and spake unto his sons in law,which married his daughters,and said, Up, get you out of this place;for the Lord will destroy this city.But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law-Gen.19:14.
Again:Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.Yes, even thus shall it be now,even now,from now on,the difference is that now is sent only one,not two men,and now the order/the command is to DESTROY THE WHOLE WORLD OF THE DEVIL,the process of destruction of the Devil's world is already running,understand?
Do you believe or you are like the sons in law of Lot thinking that I'm moking you?No surprise,if so.JESUS said:even thus will be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.Who is he?Michael- Daniel 12:1-3, Matthew 24:15-25 and 1Thessalonians 4:16.
Get ready
Satan will be cast down into the bottomless pit,and his followers- 1Corinthians 6:9-10 and Revelation 21:8-,will be cast into the lake of fire.
Re.20:1-3->1And I saw an angel come down from heaven,having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.And he laid hold on the dragon,that old serpent,which is the Devil,and Satan,and bound him a thousand years...and set a seal upon him,that he should deceive the nations no more
As you and ALL know, the prophecy - Daniel 7:7-8- is revealing about the fourth Empire- the dreadful and terrible, and strong Roman Empire- diverse from the Greek, Persian and Babylonian kingdoms that were before it. As you and all know, the Roman Empire was specifically and genuinely a GENTILIC Empire, but there was also a completely alien being, or nation, in the Gentile Roman Empire: It was ISRAEL, descendants of Abraham. For this reason the prophecy reveals Israel as an APPENDIX linked to the Roman Empire as 10 other independent powers, DESCENDANTES OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC and JACOB, prophetically represented by 10 horns, which in turn represents the 10 toes of the statue, part of iron, and part of clay- Daniel 2:42. In Daniel 2 , Israel, the clay- Isaiah 64:8-, is represented by 10 toes of the feet of the Nebuchadnezzar's estatue.
The roots of the Gentile Beast of sea, the Papacy, a religious MONSTER having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns 10 crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, the main partner of the red Dragon- Revelation 12:3-4 & 9, yeah, the roots of the Gentile Beast of sea-the Papacy, are described in Revelation 13:2. In this current decade must be elected the last Pope, the next, and to this last Pope the dragon- Revelation 13:11-, will give him his Power, and his Throne(in JERUSALEM), and great Authority. Both as a RELIGIOUS AND SATANIC MONSTER-Catholicism and Judaism-iron and clay-, both will establish an Universal and religious kingdom- Daniel 2:41-44 combined with Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2. Take a look.
There will be a terrible spiritual War in the Earth from now on- Revelation 16:13-15.
GET READY
Revelation 21:8 - The fearful(COWARDS), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Greetings in Christ JESUS our Lord and Saviour
Here's below is what JESUS said to John in Patmos through His angel (in fact an Archangel- Revelation 1:12-13)
Revelation 21:3-8
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8 and Philippians 3:20-21) saying, Behold, the TABERNACLE of GOD is with MEN( Revelation 11:15-18), and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and GOD Himself shall be with them, and be their GOD.
4 And GOD shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. --> Come up hither,
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his GOD, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
This is my THIRD attempt as I keep wiping myself off the screen. I won't place the warning supporting verses here but will leave a short comment instead.
I will state first off that none of us can afford to be glib about this subject. Even God Himself has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (let the reader look that one up in Ezekiel; don't want to lose this page again searching myself....)
We can't comprehend the horror of hell; nor tolerate even the thought. We are; nonetheless according to the end of Isaiah 66 going to find an abhorrance of those in punishment; whether that represents the Millennial viewpoint or that in the eternal lake of fire. Again there are no words to express this state of the wicked upon death; we can only look to Christ and be thankful knowing what we are saved from.
Sin is like a progressive disease; and so is abandonment of correct doctrine such as denying the literal hell and then cherry picking what seems best to us from the Bible and disregarding the rest. That technically makes us a DEIST; much the same as Benjamin Franklin who I believe cut pages out from scripture that didn't suit his mindset. Even as believers we can't ultimately stop physical death; which is a secondary result of our sinful nature; even though we are transformed and in the process of sanctification until receiving new bodies we are only as a vapor in our earthly tabernacle.
Anyway before I forget I am going to say to everyone have a blessed commemoration of Christ's death and celebration of the Resurrection this Sunday.
Agape; RIch P
Definition: Merriam-Webster defines a liar as someone who tells lies. No comment here on how great that definition is..:(
I will state as I have numerous times that no names need to be given here; just a mere mention of politics whether "donkeys or elephants" should suffice. I have said to people on occasion that a liar is worse than a murderer. The Apostle Paul is my "exhibit A" in that he at least was complicit in murder but did it in ignorance ( 1 Timothy 1:13). What we can't say is that he ever lied about his intentions; everyone knew his impassioned motives in the persecution. Lying is probably the most common methodology for maintaining a lifestyle of sin; if not lying to ourselves as to what we are doing and the consequences it is lying to others for self promotion. There are scriptural instances of lying where the midwives told Pharoah that the babies he wanted to kill were born before they could get to them. ( Exodus 1:19). There are other cases where for instance the full census wasn't given of the Israelites (Levites excluded) because the evil was sensed in King David's request that Satan himself had supplanted his heart to perform. I won't quibble here on that but certainly when we find a lie as the only way to preserve a life it is different than when it is merely self promoting.
In concealing a matter; as a case study we aren't helping ourselves ( Prov. 28:13). Hiding our sins is only going to be destructive. We will in time be found out. Lying of course can attempt to distract from any sort of transgression so again it seems that it may be most dangerous and deliberately at the end of sins leading to damnation. We need to heed carefully David's reaction when Nathan said "YOU ARE THE MAN" ( 2 Samuel 12:7). Saul wasn't ever able to repent; even though he said that he sinned ( 1 Samuel 15:24). This is like Pharaoh in Exodus 9:27 or Judas in Matthew 27:4. Worldly sorrow.
in stories, a man who has magical powers and who uses them to harm other people.
Sorcerer is another general term used in Revelation 21:8. It covers basically all powers of darkness that are used to gain influence; power; bring financial benefit or some other "positive" results in the life of the practitioner and supposedly to those who are the "patients" so to speak. Those into the magic arts as many probably know like to differentiate between "white" and "black" magic. No need to argue as to what term is politically correct here; as both types of practices are demonic and lead a person to hell. There are those who want to deliberately put a "hex" on someone; while others with a sort of dreamy New Age concept are convinced they are bringing nothing but sunshine and happiness into their own lives and those who they help (although I haven't heard yet of anyone doing stuff like this for free).
We only need to look at Adolf Hitler to see how such behaviors were used to delude the masses and in the end brought about his own destruction and tdhat of the nation of Germany. His early campaigns under the support of Goebbels involved lengthy photographic portraits as well as facial contortions and oratory exercises designed to capture the attention of the masses. Soon enough his face was contorted and he was in uncontrollable rage; and succeeded in hypnotizing huge crowds. The Eastern cult mentality and obsession with the "Master race" brought all sorts of demonic strongholds. Nietzsche and Wagner would be his inspiration.
Most today or at least many are not identifying as Satanists that nonetheless are gaining power through demonic influence.
Some by the grace of God who finally can get real as to they are really serving finally wake up realizing their soul is in desperate straits but many are unaware or refuse to believe the Word and warnings on the subject (see Deut. 18:10-12).
1 John 4:20 is a stern admonition to those who would claim to love God that hates His brother. Other verses in 1 John show as with the Gospel of John the necessary commands for a believer to love one another. We need to look as well at verses in James which discuss the taming of the tongue. ( James 3:5-6) Gossip and slander are things that can destroy a person; hence the admonition about the fires of hell. You can bet that there will be plenty of cursing in hell for the state of misery against God and probably against others as well. Hating a brother without cause ( Matt. 5:22) is in degrees; but unforgiveness results in holding on to our own sins and is not beneficial for us even in this life. Holding onto grudges; for example is another example of a lifestyle of sin; there are people who may have already passed away who we still have bitterness about in our souls resulting in caustic behavior toward others including unforgiveness. Man cannot have unconditional love for their enemies apart from His grace. This of course doesn't validate the "political correctness" today coddling criminal behavior. Acts 2:23 is only one of several passages in the book clearly stating that the Jews killed Christ; and or complicit in His murder. Jesus didn't mince words either with this subject ( Matthew 5:21-22).
We cannot ignore the act of murder which includes abortions in this study either. Again; we dare not cede to the culture of today which doesn't want to follow Biblical precedent for a death penalty for such an act to vindicate an innocent party and to have some cohesiveness in society. We can complain all we want about dictatorships in the world; but many of them see much lower crime rates because no government can survive in anarchy. We also are foolish in trying to support ideologies that are antithetical toward the value of life because of some misguided notion that everyone wants a "democracy".
Continuing on the Revelation 21:8 warnings of those in hell we see this category. This would no doubt encompass ALL types of sexual immorality; whether fornication or adultery which are two categories deliberately separated in many scriptures as different types of sin. I am not going to use this forum to go into in length my viewpoint on adulterous marriages; but will say that unless that is what is referred to it seems a lot harder to categorize a lifestyle of sin as committing adultery than it would to say someone likes to fornicate a lot (sleep around). There may be a few sick folks who deliberately want the thrill of having a fling with a married person but for the sake of their own security and simple convenience they probably will find it easier much of the time having relatinships with unmarried or "available" women. Therefore I have to deduce it is indeed adulterous marriages referred to; and that of a state of continuing sin as long as a relationship isn't a true covenant before God. I'll leave it to the readers to study the verses on the subject and the so called "exception or escape clause"; something I have studied in great detail but don't want to raise friction with on this site. Before moving on; I will note that adultery meant an instant death penalty in the Old Testament according to the law (if proven by witnesses and both parties should be present hence invalidating the presentation of John 8:1-11.) Fornication is a different penalty in O.T. law. Also there can be people who are prostitutes or just generally immoral as related to the term "whoremongers". The end result of LIFESTYLES of any of these sins is hell; which is a warning to someone calling themselves a believer who doesn't turn away from sin when making a verbal confirmation of repentance. Of course ANY sin leads us to hell; hence we are all doomed without His atoning sacrifice. Therefore all lost fit into one or more of these descriptions in Revelation 21:8
These verses at the end of the Bible and representing the end of the wicked is the end result of those who won't heed to warnings such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; see also Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:5 and many other scriptures on the subject. We do well to heed to what was said in the last verse of 1 Corinthians 6 of this reference (v. 11) where it states that some were this but they have been sanctified and justified.
There are several issues here that I feel need to be addressed. First is the difference between a sinful lapse; a sinful habit and a sinful lifestyle. All three of these behaviors could be attributed to nonbelievers; albeit in today's society there would be few that would care about a slip up except perhaps some atheists who hold to what they consider a moral standard superior to much of society. Clearly as a Christian we shouldn't play games with God with any type of sin. The third category; however is something that must be abandoned; otherwise there is no fruit of our salvation. Also we undestand that breaking the law in one area makes us guilty of breaking it all ( James 2:10). Often one sin leads to another; whether it is abuse or abandonment of a family due to the greed of a gambling addiction (something which is being advertised currently in local media); or murder stemming from the bad fruit of adultery or fornication that usually is also tied to greed or jealousy; etc.
The word "fearful" in Revelation 21:8 is in many translations "cowardly". It results when men fear man over God which we are to have a healthy fear of and ignores ( Proverbs 29:25). Wanting the praise of men is at least equally if not worse because it compromises our bold witness against sin ( John 12:43).
Of course, the other way of reading those verses is that if there was to be times & seasons (e.g. new moons, sabbaths) reinstated in the new heavens & new Earth (which seems doubtful, from Revelation 21:22-24), then the recognition of these would typify what God had once ordained for Israel, would be understood as a no longer looking forward to a future event, but an accomplishment of what those commands represented. So, it may well be that a Sabbath rest would represent more than the actual day, but a continuation of what all believers experience now in Christ & the fullness of it in that coming day in God's Presence.
I did some searching online and couldn't yet find any church that believes what you said. A website for Orthodox Christians also said you don't have to believe in trinity to be saved, so I question the validity of this belief.
Is the goal of this is to demean Christians who believe what the Bible says about God in John 1:1, 1 John 5:7? Believing what the Bible says is not a doctrine, but denying it or twisting it can be considered a manmade doctrine.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 KJV
The Alpha and Omega is the Lord Jesus.
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:6-7
This says the Alpha and Omega "will be his God". Do you agree?
Does this not plainly say that the Lord Jesus is God?
If Jesus was not God, then why would the Bible say so many times that He IS God, like in John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 9:6, and His own name Immanuel means "God with us". One would think if God wrote a Bible to convince us that Him dying for us was not Him but someone else and to tell us that salvation is from someone else and not through Him, then why would it say so many times Jesus is God. People called Him God, His name was God, He has the power of God, and the Bible says He is God. But I'm supposed to believe that He isn't though?
(MacBeth; William Shakesphere 5th Act).
This quote is in the play regards the death of MacBeth's wife. There are shades of Ecclesiastes here of vanity and life passing as a vapor; but also the idea of the second part of this verse in 2 Corinthians 7:10...
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." This verse shows the futility of those who; like Judas Iscariot regret the consequences of their sin; whether on themselves ultimately or how it affects others (in his case leading to suicide). We can see the same sort of mindset with Pilate who in John 19:11 was told that others had greater sin but nonetheless his attempts to release him were not out of reverence for His holiness but attempts to quell extremes of rebellion from both the Jews and the Romans in making a wrong decision. Ultimately; both these cases show cowardice which is one reason people will go to hell according to Revelation 21:8.
We shouldn't assume that emotion shouldn't accompany true repentence leading to salvation but that it is the Spirit which takes over and the emotions are part of a cleansing process. When given a new heart we are transformed from the inside out and can't help but cry out to God; as Isaiah did "woe is me" ( Isaiah 6:5). This shows the humble and contrite spirit David describes in Psalm 51 and elsewhere. Penitence from any other method assuming some goodness we have in ourselves apart from Christ is meaningless. This is what makes those from a Christian family background have to test themselves to see if they are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5). We can't change our hearts from mere assent of doctrinal statements or scripture. More to come.
And I'm not talking about examples of "deceased grandmothers bringing peace & comfort". I refer simply to some who holds a belief that departed souls are able to look down upon them or the affairs of the world. I think you are bringing in RC beliefs into a normal human enquiry whether the spirits of those departed to Heaven have knowledge or sight into things on Earth. What someone wants to develop on that, then leads to all manner of erroneous belief, even sin. So let's not color a simple human wonder or fascination in the after-life into something quite sinister & anti-biblical.
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
There is no contradiction, we see in Exodus 33:20-23 God told Moses he cannot see my face and no man can see me and live, so God showed Moses His backside, that is the closest any person has come to seeing God. Matt. 5:8 Jesus says those pure in heart meaning those who are amongst the saints/saved will see God. Job knew this as he says in Job 19:26, his glorified flesh/body.
We have our confirmation in Revelation 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
We will see God's face and the Lamb/Jesus for they will be the light and the temple of the new earth and the new Jerusalem, Revelation 21:22-23.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
There are terms in the Bible such as twice dead and Second death. " Jude 1:12, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8.
Paul says in Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Which death did he die? The 1st or the 2nd?
An unbeliever is ALREADY dead! Yet he is still continuous.
( 1 Timothy 5:6.) This is a very common NT idiom. The word (noun) for "dead" is "nekros" and is used of physical death (obviously) but also spiritual death to describe an unsaved person who is physically alive but spiritually dead. Here are some examples:
Matt 8:22 - But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Eph 2:1 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 5:14 - This is why it is said: "Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins.
Eternal Salvation is life! It is separation from this Body/Tabernacle of death.
In Romans 6:3 we see the sacrificial Lamb at work.
In Romans 6:4-5 we see the NEW BIRTH and the first fruit of the Resurrection. This is the 1st Resurrection.
You are either dead right now or you have life right now!
Those who have life has already died once and has been born again, never to die again.
"Eternal life speaks of "spiritual life and death".
That's the only death a believer has. "He's already been born again"
Those who are dead is already spiritual dead and their bodies will soon die, and they will remain spiritual dead throughout eternity.
The bible doesn't say anything about being unconscious after the body dies. It has lots of scripture describing conscious.
If the grave is Hell, the Bible never says anything about the saved going there.
See Pt 2
I understand in delays in replies many work and have family responsibilities. This subject is being discussed by several people and I just wanted to share a few points of my understanding on it. The questions were not directed towards you, you can reply to them if you want but they were some of the questions I wrote down when I was studying this subject because some Scriptures seem to support both understandings if not deeply studied, not saying you have not.
Scripture tells us God is love, 1 John 4:8,16 and we have been told God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 33:11 caries us to John 3:16 God does not want us to perish. The Bible tells us the soul that sinneth will die, Ezekiel 18:4 God preserves the souls of the saints Psalms 97:10 the faith and belief in Jesus by the grace of God can save our soul Hebrews 10:39.
Scripture tells us of various degrees of punishment like in Luke 12:46-48 Revelation 21:8. In Genesis 2:7 man became a living soul/being, my understanding is the breath of God is the spirit of life which goes back to God when we die whether lost or saved and this body becomes a dead soul that sleeps in the dust until resurrection then the judgment Revelation 20.
To repeat, eternal life is our promise it is something we do not have, only by faith and belief in Jesus Christ by the grace of God we will receive this gift when we are resurrected not before. If we say our souls are immortal, we are saying we already have eternal life, and it is just where are we going to spend it?
My understanding is the lost and wicked punishment is eternal forever, not the punishing, Satan and the fallen angels the beast and false profit will be tormented day and night for ever and ever as we see in Revelation 20:10, but they are not mortal beings like we are, and we see in Matthew 25:41 it was originally prepared for them.
Just my understanding of Scripture thanks again.
God bless,
RLW