Revelation
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We interpret the scripture as literal as we can unless prompt by perhaps words that hint not to. such as Revelation 16:13. And I saw three unclean spirits "like frogs" come out of the mouth of the dragon, ( These are not frogs, they are like frogs.)
Often you can go back to the Old Testament or other places for clarity in these symbols. perhaps the second plague that God sent upon Egypt was that of frogs. The Egyptians found the frogs to be so obnoxious that Pharaoh entreated Moses to remove all the frogs. And these frogs covered the whole land.
These evil spirits coming out of the mouth of this unholy trinity may be what is spoken and persuaded of them. look at the preceding verse.
(For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.) "Which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world" means this covers the whole word.
God bless.
You wrote: "Until we draw the last breath , we must battle. And, the battle is ourselves!"
But the battle is not ourselves only, "but against the wiles of the Devil, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, wherefore take unto you the whole armour of GOD, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand- Ephesians 6:11-13".
Revelation 16:13-15
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs(why frogs?) come out of the MOUTH of the dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast(Beast of sea- Revelation 13:1-10), and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet (the false messiah, FALSE LAMB- Revelation 13:11- AN IMPOSTOR- John 5:43-47. Take a look.)
14 For they are the spirits of devils (a saatanic trinity), working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of GOD Almighty (that is the Lord's Day, the seventh nd last Day or seventh and last millennium, the current millennium).
15 Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Daniel 12:12 - Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Daniel 12:10 - Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a FLOOD after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the FLOOD which the dragon cast out of his mouth.( See Revelation 13:11 combined with Revelation 16:13-15. And Get ready)
17 And the Dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.(that is the Spirit of prophecy- Revelation 19:10)
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle (by allegory, the OLD and New Testaments- Revelation 11:3), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent(the red Dragon). ---> (By the way, JESUS said for the Devil: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of GOD". The Word is GOD- John 1:1. The Words that came from the MOUTH of GOD are written in the Bible, you know?)
Was Satan, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, born?(2Thes.2:3-4) Yes, he was, of course, decades ago.
(baptistboard.co - (Baptist Christian Forums )
Get ready, yeah, get ready
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. - day 1335, i.e. 45 days after the end of 1290 days. Get ready
1 Tessalonians 4:16-17:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Revelation 16:13-5
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are th
You know that there are many things written in the Bible figuratively, or by allegory, that are very difficult to interpret, in my opinion a challenge that many people cannot interpret them really, or misinterpret, or even twist or distort them unfortunately.
My question was about "Who are the dogs according to the Rev.22:15 and Phil.3:2"?. Who the Scriptures are talking from?
I think it is very interesting to find the answer in the Bible itself. To decipher the enigma It means wisdom for us.
But what to say about Revelation 16:13? : 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like FROGS come out of the MOUTH of the dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.
THE QUESTION IS: WHY FROGS?
I'm not challenging anyone, it is the Bible that makes the challenge, I think it is very interesting to find the answer in the Bible itself, even JESUS said: (whoso readeth, let him understand: Matthew 24:15)- We all have to accept the challenge that JESUS made: Whoever reads understands. That's it.
About Edomites. The Edomites are described in the Bible mainly as opponents of the people of Israel.Moses asked permission for the people of Israel to cross the territory of the Edomites peacefully.He even promised to pay for anything the Israelites might need along the way.Even so,the king of Edom refused to let the people of Israel pass(Number 20:14-21)
Now,in this current millennium,the seventh and last,even in these days of Apocalypse,the battle of Armageddon(air-magog-eddom(red) is in the way( Revelation 16:13-16) , the battle is against three unclean spirits like frogs(why frogs?the website of purebible explains this mystery),that come out of the mouth of the dragon(the red dragon- Revelation 12:3-4),and out of the mouth of the Beast(the MAN Beast of sea),and out of the mouth of the false prophet(the false messiah of the Jews, a false lamb- Revelation 13:11).
Remembering that Edom means red, the battle called Ar/mag/eddon is in the current heavenly environment of the New Testament against the MAN Beast of sea(Magog) and against the MAN Beast revealed as dragon(Satan incarnated, son of perdition, MAN of sin- Revelation 13:11-he was born in Israel decades ago and will manifest himself soon as messiah-an IMPOSTOR). Get ready- Revelation 16:15- Behold, I come as a thief.Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked,and they see his shame.
Daniel 12:10-12
10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried;but the wicked shall do wickedly:and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12Blessed is he that waiteth,and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet,stand in the Holy Place,(whoso readeth,let him understand
Yes, as JESUS revealed,"when unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places seeking rest". The dry places where the unclean spirit walks are the men made by the dust in the belly of the Serpent( John 8:44-45), and are without the Spirit of GOD, without the Spirit of Christ, as was Israel, the clay, the dry land. The unclean spirit finds none among them which were born again from GOD and really remain in the body of Christ. 1John 5:18-19->18 We know that whosoever is born of GOD sinneth not; but he that is begotten of GOD keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of GOD, and the WHOLE WORLD lieth in wickedness.(Because they live in the belly of the Serpent,and only within them the unclean spirit finds rest.)
The unclean spirit saith: I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished./ Then goeth the unclean spirit, and taketh with himself (7) seven other spirits more wicked than himself,
1Peter 5:8-9
8 Be sober,be vigilant;because your adversary the Devil(the old Serpent),as a roaring lion,WALKETH about, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
Job 1:6-There was a Day when the sons of GOD came to present themselves before the Lord,and Satan(the Old Serpent)came also among them.(By the way,we are entering the Day of the Lord,the last millennium)
Reevelation 11:15-18
15 - The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
...
The battle is against three unclean spirits like frogs: Revelation 16:13-15
13 I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon,and out of the mouth of the beast,and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are the spirits of devils, working miracles...
15 Behold, I come as a thief. ...
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Get ready, there will be a War, spiritual War - Revelation 16:13-15. The Word is GOD, self-executing. Get ready.
You said"Babylon fell when Christ died on the cross.Creation was married to Christ at his resurrection".
You are saying that, but does not fit together the Word of GOD. What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,self-executing,undersntand?What does the Word of GOD say for you and all? Come out of Babylon, MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins,and that you receive not of her plagues.
Wake up, wake up, it's midnight.And the sins of Babylon have reached unto HEAVEN, and GOD has remembered her iniquities.
Therefore shall her plagues come in one Day(in the seventh and last Day, it is now, even now, from now on, understand?),death, and mourning,and famine;and she shall be utterly burned with fire:for strong is the Lord GOD who Judges her.
Remember Revelation 18:20-23
20Rejoice over Babylon, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for GOD has avenged you on her.
21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22And the voice of harpers,and musicians,and of pipers,and trumpeters,shall be heard no more at all in thee;and no craftsman,of whatsoever craft he be,shall be found any more in thee;and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;for by thy sorceries were ALL NATIONS deceived.
There will be a War(Rev.12 combined with Revelation 16:13-15)against Babylon.
Get ready
1Corinthians15:24-27
24 The END cometh, when JESUS shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN all RULE, and ALL AUTHORITY, and POWER
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed
Pt 1
I haven't fully followed this thread but I do know the belief of the participants because of previous pass discussions.
Getting down to the root of where this thread has turned based on this topic.
The question is "Are there a place of torment that unbelievers go and are they conscious while tormented?
"I believe so" though you and Jema has presented a good argument in this difficult topic.
I also struggled with this in the past, taking those various scriptures alone.
However, when we consider the incomprehensible holiness of God and the incomprehensible wickedness of flesh deprived of God's Spirit where there is no repentance, I believe that God's everlasting punishment is justified.
CAN WE TRULY KNOW THE STATE OF MAN'S FALLEN CONDITION IN THIS FALLEN WORLD?
Can a ungenerated heart repent?
Note: Man can change his action, but can he change his heart, apart from the spirit of God?
I believe we find the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I believe this verse speaks of the Holyspirit restraining evil in the world showing God's patience until there is a certain number reached and God is going to say. Go get them!
This is a view I presented a few months ago and was constantly attacked by some while I was on vacation in the dispensationalism discussion.
Anyway, you see the condition of man's heart after the rapture when man take up war against the Lord in Revelation 19:19.
Also, the unrepentant heart is revealed in Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Man's heart is in a state of everlasting rebellion against God-
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Thank you for your reply.
See, it is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of the current world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching, and the journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last days and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt, on the one hand, in the first moments of exit from Egypt, we will se GOD fighting/ battling against the Enemy through His plagues and severe punishments, there will be only and only severe chastiments, on the other hand, GOD protecting His people to escape the persecution and violence of the evil ones, so will the last seven years of this present world's existence. Indeed it will be wrath against wrath, the spiritual environment will be one of fierce spiritual warfare - Revelation 11:18. Take a look. It all starts now with GOD's declaration of WAR against the Devil's world; What statement? It's in Revelation 11:15KJV - "The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Lord's and of His Christ (not yet, of course), and He will reign forever. For this cause, the NATIONS will be wrathed- Revelation 11:18, but GOD will wrath also, well, if GOD is for us, who can be against us?
By the way, Michael will be with us in the WAR on this last journey- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12:7 to 13. Take a look.
GET READY
You know: The WAR shall be/is against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
GET READY
Thank you for your reply
Allow me to add a few more elements for analysis. JESUS was talking about the fulfillment of the Scriptures about Himself -JESUS is GOD-, when Peter rebuked Him, so He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of GOD, but merely HUMAN concerns." Matthew 16:23NIV
When Peter rebuked JESUS, an unexpected spiritual environment emerged out of the darkness and the Enemy spirit took a clincher/hook in the literal sense, and articulated the pseudo human goodness in Peter's mouth to put a stumble in the way of JESUS, as happened in temptation.
The lesson I draw for myself from the spiritual environment that emerged out in that moment involving Peter in his weakness before the Master, it is that as a human we must have much care to fall not in the same error of Peter Apostle, using our human conceptions and going against the Scriptures, even if our words seems be good and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom.
We need a lot of discernment, no? Ephesians 4:26-27KJV - Sin not ...:
Neither give place to the Devil.
Furthermore, Ephesians 6:10 to 18 in very important for us the lasts, mainly now at midnight, a hour of great danger, according the Word of GOD, and more a TURN of a Day in our GOD's watch as in Genesis 3:8-11 and NOW in Revelation 16:13-15.
GOD BLESS
Part 2
2 To make an end of sins (Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law). The verb in the Hebrew text translated as "put an end to" can mean "to seal up". The covering of our sins was accomplished on the cross at Calvary. When he said IT IS FINISHED, he provided us with the garments (wedding garments) to cover our sins. Psalm 32:1-2 Matthew 1:21 John 1:29 Romans 8:3 1 Corinthians 15:3 Hebrews 10:8-11 1 John 3:5 Revelation 16:15.
Is there still sin today? Yes. Will there still be sin and death after Jesus's second coming? Yes. Even during the 1000 years, there will be sin and death until all is made new Rev. 21:1-4 but through Jesus, they are covered and sealed, Rev. 16:15
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity (Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement, iniquity is guilt, crookedness, perverseness, that which is not straight or upright, moral distortion, in the dark. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
The word reconcile means to bring back to a former state of harmony Jesus reconciled both Jew and Gentile unto God in one body by the cross and now through Jesus we both Jew and Gentile have access by one Spirit unto the Father no more strangers or foreigners but fellow citizens. Making reconciliation for iniquity concerns our involvement in the work of salvation.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. Everlasting, no end, righteousness, justice, mercy, loving-kindness, in conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will, fair and balanced. Isaiah 61:10-11 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 1 Peter 2:24.
See Part 3
Good to hear from you as always!
I was just emphasizing a portion of those verses that emphasizes everlasting punishment by the hands of the Lord.
( he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.)
Psalms 75:7-8. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.
God is Love but he is also a righteous Judge.
Torment is everlasting I believe because the heart of the wicked is everlasting and uncurably evil.
We have discussed my take on the Holyspirit restraining evil in
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.
I mentioned that because man has no Idea how evil he really is apart from the restrainer/Holyspirit.
When the restraint on evil is taken out of the way you see a picture of man continuous rebellion even in the midst of torment in
Revelation 16:8-9.
I believe you and I along with others have discussed this in the past and I know we have different views on this however we respects one another view.
I believe Sasha had opposing views on this belief and was heavily engaged in these topics and later suze. Perhaps they're checking in from time to time!!
It's getting late Ronald,
Perhaps we will talk over the weekend.
God bless you.
God bless you.
There are details about the heavenly city appearing on earth such as in Psalm 48. This shows the fear of the kings of the earth; and would represent a Millennium event. In earlier posts I have discussed how we will rule much like David under Christ who will be the supreme authority during the 1000 year reign. There are other verses about the earth and its peoples which could encompass promises of either the Millennium or eternal Kingdom.
I have said before that the eternal nature of the earth seems to be proven by several verses and I had thought that was true about the sun and moon but Psalm 72 seems to indicate otherwise. It would seem to show the end of it at the end of the Millennium; no doubt part of the catastrophic destruction at the time. Ecclesiastes 1:4 and several other verses seem to indicate that the earth in some form remains forever. As to exactly how the new universe will be; or if anything exists other than heaven and a new earth is rather mysterious; however. It is very frightening to think of the lake of fire as being what happens when the elements (or atoms) are dissolved in 2 Peter 3:10; perhaps the lost are in an eternal body that is reduced to some strange broken down elemental state. Revelation 22:15 seems to indicate they are just outside the gate. Somehow it would seem that they are infinitely far away from the saints at that time; however as there will be no more crying on our part as Revelation 21:4 shows.
These changes no doubt will cause the sea to vaporize; hence no more sea ( Rev. 21:1). All in the sea will die in the Tribulation anyway (except that brought to life in the Dead Sea); see Revelation 16:3; and Ezekiel 47:10 with surrounding verses on that context. Again in heaven we shall behold Him and see His marks as Thomas did; the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 had eternal ramifications. We ever shall be reminded of what He did for us.
(Part 3):
You say that the wrath of God is very different from the great tribulation. I disagree with that. I believe that the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation. In Revelation, we see the seal judgments and the bowl judgments. By the time we get to the 6th bowl judgment, God's wrath has begun ( Revelation 6:17). Then we have the description of the 7 bowl judgments beginning with Revelation 15:1 and going through revelation 16:21. Revelation 15:1 calls it the wrath of God.
The 7th bowl judgment is poured out at the end of Revelation Chapter 16. This happens before the second coming of Christ. So, the wrath of God is poured out during the last 3-1/2 years, not after the second coming of Christ.
Jimbob, hopefully I have answered your questions, whether you agree with my answers or not. Now to be fair, I would like a turn to ask you a few questions. You said that you believe we are living in the beginning of sorrows time period right now! great tribulation will start soon. Also, you honestly believe we are much farther along in the Lastdays timeline than most True Believers think we are.
I believe I mentioned that we have been living in the "last days" for about 2,000 years now.
But, my first question is: Do you believe that the "beginning of sorrows" and "birth pains" are both referring to the first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation?
If you believe the beginning of sorrows is the first 3-1/2 years, how far into this time frame do you believe we are in, or when did you first start believing we were in this time period?
If we are in the "beginning of sorrows" right now, would you say that Christ is coming back within the next 7-years?
Last question: If Christ does not come back within this time frame, how would you explain that?
If you choose to answer my question, I wish to thank you ahead of time. Blessings!
My proposition is that the final revival or as Joel 2:23 is basically attained in the "signs and wonders" environment which the rest of Joel and much of the O.T. discuss for the end times. As I have stated numerous times of late by the sixth seal ALL will know about God AND Christ on the throne. ( Rev. 6:12-17). This proves judgments of God clearly are poured out with comprehension by all those on earth at the time. Therefore; the Gospel as preached now will be unnecessary; Christ and God will be on one side; and Satan; the False Prophet and Antichrist on the other side. It would appear that with the woman riding the Beast the first part of the Tribulation the false Babylon one world religion will be the primary killers ( John 16:2; which appears to have particular emphasis on those in Israel at that time). Later on; of course the Antichrist destroys the religion and probably one of the headquarters by fire ( Rev. 17:16). I will state that those who are destroyed are naked; and that seems to parallel Revelation 16:15 as well as the fate of the Laodiceans. It appears a remnant will survive most of the Tribulation who don't step out in faith but also hide out from being forced to take the Mark.
The aforementioned verses and others such as similar sounding events in the seal; trumpet and bowl judgments which make us question not just the timing of the Rapture but other events I am not planning to go into a detailed analysis at present. I will state that just because things are hard to understand we shouldn't just place symbolic interpreteations on them; most believers don't with the already fulfilled prophecies when Christ came the first time so we shouldn't do so now with future events. There is as many are aware a time for "Jacob's trouble" or Daniel's 70th Week ( Jeremiah 30:17; Daniel 9:24-27) which seem to indicate the seven years to purge Israel.
Part 2.
Continuing with just a few of the Day of the Lord verses.
Zephaniah 1:15
Isaiah 13:9
Lamentations 2:1
Isaiah 13:13
Isaiah 51:22
Jeremiah 25:15
Revelation 16:19
Revelation 14:10
Revelation 16:1
Isaiah 63:1-6.
This is what Paul is telling them is not at hand. This is what we all agree on besides a few that the Church will not see.
However some see the Rapture in Revelation 20:4-6 sadly mistaking it for the Resurrection.
That would place the Church on the Earth during the wrath of the Lord that comes upon all the Earth.
When we take 2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;
Paul gives them the sequence of events in chronological order of what happens "AFTER" that what he reminded them of previously in
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
That's why he opens up saying "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by "OUR" gathering together unto him," 2 Thessalonians 2:1.
Paul included them and himself in this gathering! So did they see the son of perdition? No.
We take 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with the following scriptures to pitch our viewpoint. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-15.
The son of perdition can't come while the light bearers is in the world. The Church! Who sits in the midst of the Church? Christ/His Holyspirit.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.
God bless.
FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOTH ALREADY WORK:
I believe 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 can be useful in giving us insight on understanding other scriptures and that insight might in return give us more understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2
Such as Revelation 16:8-11 and Revelation 17:12-14. This evil mindset can only be accomplished if the Holyspirit role has changed in a way that it's not functioning today.
Even non believers wouldn't behave in this manner while the restrainer is present.
Here in Revelation 16 and 17 you see the true condition of man's heart apart from the restraint of the Holyspirit.
Even non believers will repent but turn back.
John 1:9 must won't apply during this time.
This is what happens when darkness is manifested in man.
In 2 Thessalonians 2 on one hand we see the eschatology view and on the other hand we see the condition of man's heart without God's spirit.
I believe the Holyspirit spirit will be in the world as he was in the OT bringing people to Christ.
God bless you Brother.
Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon man a great HAIL out of heaven, each stone about the weight of a talent (a talent weighs about 57 pounds): and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the HAIL; for the plague thereof was very great.
Since Revelation is symbolic, what is this a symbol of:
We have to go to the prophets:
Isaiah 28:2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one ....who is this MIGHTY and STRONG ONE? ..... it is JESUS, the WORD OF GOD ......which as a tempest of HAIL and a DESTROYING STORM ......the HAIL in Revelation is symbolic of the WORD OF GOD, and his words are going to DESTROY ALL DECEPTION FROM THE CARNAL MIND of his people.
Revelation 9:17 And I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat upon them, having breastplates of FIRE, and of JACINTH, and BRIMSTONE, and the heads of the horses were as heads of lions; and out of their mouths ISSUED FIRE and smoke and BRIMSTONE.
Revelation 9:18 And by these three were a THRID PART OF MAN KILLED, by the FIRE, and by the SMOKE, and by the BRIMSTONE, which issued out of their mouth.
This is symbolic, you can contain PHYSICAL fire and brimstone in ones mouth.
Isaiah 30:33 ...for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large; the pile thereof is FIRE and much wood; the BREATH OF THE LORD, like a stream of BRIMSTONE, doth kindle it.
Ezekiel 5:2 ...though shall burn a THIRD PART .....
Ezekiel 5:3 Thou shall take thereof a FEW ......
Ezekiel 5:4 .....and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire: for thereof (those destroyed in the fire) SHALL A FIRE COME FORTH ino all the house of Israel.
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the THIRD PART through the FIRE ......
Revelation 8:7 And the third part of the trees were burnt up .....
Isaiah 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood, but this (battle) shall be with BURNING and fuel of fire.
Isaiah 9:19 .... people shall be the fuel of the fire
Revelation 13:11: of another beast. I understand this one to be representative of the False Prophet who is anti-Christ's lieutenant, if you will, speaking with the same authority & force as Satan himself. A deadly duo indeed. And we see this lieutenant again in Revelation 16:13 (all three are separate: Satan, anti-Christ, & the false prophet), Revelation 19:20 & Revelation 20:10. Yes, the dragon is Satan, but we can identify the beast & the false prophet as separate entities, coming from Satan.
And I agree with a lot of what you shared in your page 2, with the exception of course to the beast which speaks like a dragon; I don't believe this is Satan but the false prophet. And yes, it is in the first 42 months that the anti-Christ appears & causes this worldwide mayhem & God's Wrath being poured out during the second 42 months.
But our problem remains: when is the Rapture? Is it after the first 42 months, or before it? Again, my critical verses are 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. How we understand the meaning of the 'restrainer', will most likely place us in the pre or post-trib position. Paul's readers were confused & agitated that the Day of the Lord had begun (as taught by the false teachers). Paul assured them that the 'restrainer' hadn't been removed yet, allowing the man of sin to be revealed & assume his dictatorship. But the question, 'who is he who restrains? Thank you again Jimbob for this lively & inspiring discussion; I appreciate the time you've given to it.
I suppose your referring to:
Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates, and the water thereof was dried up, that THE WAY of the of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Revelation is very, very symbolic, so we have to try to understand what the symbols represent, in their relation to the kingdom of God, YOU becoming the image of Christ, ONE with the WORD.
Angels are messengers send by the spirit of God, so this angel is pouring out God's message on the Euphrates.
The Euphrates (symbolic) is a river, a river is water, and another scripture in Revelation says:
Revelation 17:15 ....the waters which thou sawest, where the whore sits, are peoples and multitudes, and nations and tongues ......ALL mankind, unfaithful to there creator ..... from lack of KNOWLEDGE ......
All God's words are for each person in this sea of humanity, so when God's message (the spirit of truth and life) is poured out on YOU, YOU began to come to TRUTH and become a faithful wife, TRUTH in you, instead a wife of another, LIES and DECEPTION in you.
THE WAY (Christ is truth, life, and the way) of the KINGS (Christ is King of Kings) is prepared ....and when Christ has FINISHED HIS WORK IN YOU, there will be:
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth (a faithful wife; baptised in truth and life) ...and there was no more sea ....peoples, nations, tongues: WHORES; Christ WORDS have OVERCOME lies and deception.
God Bless YOU!
Part 3
To make an end of sins.
To make an end; as put an end to/make an end to, affix a seal, to seal up, a document is rolled up and sealed with wet clay. The signet ring of the owner bears the image of his seal and is pressed into the clay. This is what was done by the Holy Spirit, 2 Cor. 1:22 Eph. 1:13 2 Tim. 2:19.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Sin reaches for things, such as safety, knowledge, peace, happiness, and pleasure. Nevertheless, behind the act of good, sin ultimately creates a confrontation between obedience and rebellion. If not in faith, it is sin.
Psalm 32:1 Matthew 1:21 Matthew 22:11-13 John 1:29 John 3:5 Acts 5:31 Romans 3:25 Romans 8:3 Hebrews 9:26 Hebrews 10:8-12 1 Corinthians 15:3 1 John 3:5-6 Revelation 16:15
The covering of our sins was accomplished on the cross at Calvary. When he said IT IS FINISHED, he provided us with the garments (wedding garments) to cover our sins. Sin has not completely stopped yet but it is covered by the blood of Jesus and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
This passage points toward the Messiah who died because of our sins. In Jesus's death, punishment for our sins is paid for. Jesus's death we are dead to sin. Walking in the Spirit meant that we are trusting in Christ by faith to be made right before God, and not trusting in the law.
Whenever Paul speaks about walking after the flesh, it is in the context of trying to be made right before God by the law, which is equivalent to self-righteousness. I believe the prophecy is fulfilled in Jesus Christ and if we are in Jesus Christ, it is fulfilled for us. Praise God that Jesus Christ made an end of sins! As Jesus said from the cross, "It is finished!"
See Part 4
You are right in saying God didn't command Adam not to eat of the tree of life, He commanded they couldn't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as mentioned here in Genesis 2:16-17.
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
But how do we know that they didn't eat of the tree of life BEFORE they disobeyed?
Here's all we have that is written.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, ((TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL)): and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Perhaps God forbidden them from eating of the tree of life AFTER their disobedience.
The results of their disobedience is that they knew they were naked and they tried to cover themselves. Now naked is also used throughout scripture to mean " Sin exposed" Here's one of several.
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
These garments is the covering of the blood of Christ. "White robes"
Christ was ordained to come into the world before the world began, to be the sacrificial Lamb. For Adam too!
Scipture doesn't say Adam "BECAME" naked after he disobeyed.
Scripture says he KNEW he was naked after he disobeyed.
See here ;
Genesis 3:10-11 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
And he said, WHO TOLD THEE THAT THOU WAST NAKED? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
I believe the issue is what would he do with that knowledge!
They tried to cover up their guilt and shame with the product of their own efforts. This may have been the first attempt at a works salvation.
Just my thoughts.
GB.
The verse is John 11:35. This was when He was given news that Lazarus had died.
This Psalm once again was written for the sons of Korah. Interesting; the "Alamoth" designation meant that it was to be sang by women; apparently with soprano voices according to Easton's Bible Dictionary. I'm not certain why that was the case but it is an interesting sidenote.
This is clearly a prophetic Psalm. We literally see the mountains being carried into the "midst of the sea" in Revelation 16:20 (verse 2); and the words of Matt. 24:29 come into mind in verse 3.
Moving on to verse 4 and 5; we see the river in the midst of the "city of God" (verse 4) and it not being moved. This could represent the Millennial Kingdom on earth or eternity; as well as possibly the heavenly Jerusalem now.
Verses 6 through 10 describe the "heathen raging" (verse 6); which is reminicient of the Armageddon conflict of Rev. 19 as well as reflected earlier in Psalm 2. The earth melting is in other scriptures such as Isaiah 24:1-6 and Psalm 97:5 to name a few.
Truly God is the refuge of those who either physically survive into the Millenial Kingdom from the Tribulation or the saints that rule and reign as kings and priests on earth at that time (verse 7). Verses 8-10 talk about wars ceasing and God making desolations; as well as destroying all the weapons of war. This reminds us of Isaiah 2:4 as well as the aftermath and cleanup of the Ezekiel 38 war. God truly will be exalted even among the heathen (verse 10). The Psalm concludes in verse 11 with the identical verse as found in verse 7.