Discuss Jude 1 Page 3

Ronald.

Part 4.

You said we grow until we come to the full measure of Christ, and we will be glorified when we get our glorified bodies. "Which I believe also" ( Ephesians 4:12-13.

So at what point do we lose salvation?

Romans 8:13, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye (THROUGH THE SPIRIT) DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, ye shall live.

We are given Christ spirit for our infirmities, and that is areas we are weak in the flesh.

What you described as one able to keep himself justified is not Salvation at all.

Once you are saved God keeps on saying you. It's not a onetime transaction. Sanctification Is of the Lord, Justification is of the Lord. It's not in your hands to keep yourself saved.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Part 5 I will attempt to give an example of Sanctification under the law and Gods acceptance of man's cleansing himself and a picture of the difference between the ministration of death and the ministration by the Spirit.

See Part 5.

S Spencer,

Part four,

2 Peter 2:20. They had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior; they were saved and had escaped the pollutions/sins of the world. Can we escape sin outside of Christ? They choose to go back to a life of habitual, intentional, and willful sin. And their punishment will be worse, Luke 12:47-48.

Galatians 6:9 This to me is obedience, It says unless we faint, to me that is to give up, quit, intentionally turn away, we reap life everlasting. Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". If we continue that is a choice, we must make that is not given that is our obedience.

Jude 1:21 We are to keep ourselves, the Holy Spirit helps us, but this is something we do and if we do, He will keep us from falling. 2 Peter 1:10 If we do, it is not done for us, we have been given but it is up to us to obey and do, if they have forgotten they had to know it to forget it. If We Do!!! we shall never fall. Hebrews 6:13-16 What Abraham did, in his faith, he waited for a long time he endured. He did not faint or grow weary or turn his back to God, the evidence of his faith, just like when he drew back the knife.

This is not about a Christian who is struggling and battling sin regardless of how long they struggle they are still in the race and if they repent and return in the light will be forgiven and in the grace of God. As David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, Psalms 51:12. We all are in a battle with our flesh and sin daily. We can lose the joy of salvation and if we come under repentance, we will still be in God's grace but without repentance, we will be cut off.

See part 5.

Ronald.

Part 6.

This section I will attempt to address those scriptures you presented suggesting one can lose his Salvation.

Hebrews 3:12-13.

Verse 12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Well, if there is an evil heart of unbelief, and deceitfulness of sin. THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED!

1 John 1:7.

Ronald, I don't grasp you here. This is not a verse saying you can lose Salvation.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, if we are in the light we are saved. If we are not in the light, we are not saved.

2 Peter 2:20.

Look at 2 Peter 2:22. These are dogs, NOT SONS! This is the same group described in the previous verses!

Take it from 2 Peter 2:9-20 to get the context.

Galatians 6:9.

Christians will go before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the things done in the flesh.

We are to keep sowing and in due season we will reap. this is the fruit of their labor.

He that soweth to the Spirit, sows to the spirit by the power of the Holyspirit.

Paul has just asked the Galatian Christians to be convinced, once again, that trusting their flesh in this life will only lead to corruption. Reliance on our own power only leads to death. That is true whether we trust human effort to save us by following the rituals and sacraments of the law, or by following our own selfish, sinful desires.

Salvation comes only by "planting" the Spirit. Through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sin.

God gives to us His own Spirit. Only that Spirit will deliver eternal life in the end.

Colossians 1:23.

Verses 21-22 states we have been reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jude 1:24. says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

So, those who is moved away from the faith was never saved.

See Part 7.

2 of 2

, that we must pickup, teaching us to deny these ungodly & worldly lust, & pleasures of this world, which spring up within us & also instructs us in works of righteousness unto holiness this is Christ Spirit / Grace / Light appearance in us to combat the spirits of darkness that appears. Ephesians 6:12 it not without only, Jesus says it's within our hearts Matt 15:19 2Cor 10:5,6

Friends

Awake to Righteousness & in time through the exercising of Him, the Grace of God, you'll sin not & be conformed to His Image

For He only become Hebrews 5:9

Are have you been deceived by those Paul warned us about in

2 Timothy 4:3,4 Jude 1:4 Believing against Scriptural Truth, that turn the Grace of God into wantonness, that you can live a life of sin & iniquity & have a faith that never overcome satan, & still be born again, Spirit baptized, & a light that set upon a hill, if this be true of you, your in the Apostasy, the deceitfulness of sin/satan has ensnare you. 2 Thess 2:10-12 is fulfilling upon you, your faith is a lie, John 3:18-20 Rom 1:25

Friends,

The working out of our salvation, the sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, washing of regeneration & renewing of the Holy Ghost is on this side of the grave. What spiritual state we're in when we die, is the state we will be judge in! & if the 1Pet 4:18 be not decieived, 1John 3:7,8,11

I've spoken this to many people, their response is 'that God is loving, gracious & merciful" very true, that why He sent His only begotten Son to provide a Way, through His Grace & Mercy to overcome the devil & become more than conquerors, through Him that loves us,. This is the whole revelation of the better Covenant, build on better promises, Grace & Mercy takes us out of sin, it's the Rom 8:2 it doesn't leave us in our sins, to pacifying us, saying Oh it's ok we know you can't be perfect, the lie.

Friends

For the sake of God's great love wherewith He has demonstrated in sending His Son, consider your state 2Cor 13:5

PART 4 Faith/Grace

The Spirit conveys God's mercy, forgiveness and acceptance, and he gives them the desire and power to do God's will ( Jn 3:16; 1Co 15:10; Php 2:13; 1Ti 1:15-16). The whole process and progress of the Christian life, from beginning to end, is dependent on this grace.

(1) God gives a degree of grace as a gift ( 1Co 1:4) to unbelievers (i.e., those who do not yet know or have not accepted Christ) so that they may be able to respond to his message and mercy and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ( Eph 2:8-9; Tit 2:11; 3:4).

(2) God gives grace to believers (i.e., those who choose to accept and follow Christ) so they can be "set free from sin" (Ro 6:20, 22), "to will and to act according to his good purpose" ( Php 2:13; cf. Tit 2:11-12; see Mt 7:21, note on obedience as a gift of God's grace). God's grace also helps believers to pray ( Zec 12:10), to grow in their relationship with Christ ( 2Pe 3:18) and to communicate the message about Christ to others (Ac 4:33; 11:23).

(3) God's grace must be desired, pursued and accepted ( Heb 4:16). Some of the ways by which God's grace is received are: studying and obeying God's Word ( Jn 15:1-11; 20:31; 2Ti 3:15); hearing and responding to the preaching of the gospel-the "good news" about Christ ( Lk 24:47; Ac 1:8; Ro 1:16; 1Co 1:17-18); praying ( Heb 4:16; Jude 1:20); fasting, which is going without food for a period of time to focus on spiritual matters through prayer ( Mt 4:2; 6:16); worshiping Christ ( Col 3:16); being continually filled with the Holy Spirit ( Eph 5:18); and participating in the Lord's Supper, or "communion" (Ac 2:42; see Eph 2:9, note on how grace works).

(4) God's grace can be resisted and rejected ( Heb 12:15), received in vain and without lasting effect ( 2Co 6:1), set aside and disregarded ( Gal 2:21) and abandoned by people who, at one time, truly believed and accepted Christ ( Gal 5:4).

J. Wesley Adams and Donald C. Stamps, Fire Bible (Springfield, MO: Life Publishers International, 2011)

PART 3

(4) Examples of actual apostasy can be found in Ex 32; 2Ki 17:7-23; Ps 106; Isa 1:2-4; Jer 2:1-9; Ac 1:25; Gal 5:4; 1Ti 1:18-20; 2Pe 2:1, 15, 20-22; Jude 1:4, 11-13; see article on The Age of the Antichrist, for comments on apostasy predicted to occur within the church in the last days before Christ returns to take the faithful in his churches from the world.

(5) The steps that lead to apostasy are as follows:

(a) Believers-those who have accepted God's forgiveness and entered a personal relationship with him through faith in Christ-become spiritually unconcerned, resistant or outright rebellious. These individuals show their unbelief by failing to take seriously all of the truths, challenges, warnings, promises and teachings of God's Word ( Mk 1:15; Lk 8:13; Jn 5:44, 47; 8:46).

(b) If the realities and desires of the world become a higher priority than the realities and desires of God's kingdom and purposes, then believers gradually cease to recognize and experience companionship with God through Christ ( Heb 4:16; 7:19, 25; 11:6).

(c) Because of the deceitfulness of sin (i.e., anything that offends or defies God or falls short of his standard), believers become increasingly tolerant of sin in their own lives ( 1Co 6:9-10; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:13). They no longer love what is right and hate what is wrong (see Heb 1:9, note).

(d) Their hearts become spiritually hardened ( Heb 3:8, 13), resistant and unresponsive to God. Eventually, they openly reject his way (3:10), ignoring the repeated inner voice and rebuke of the Holy Spirit ( Eph 4:30; 1Th 5:19-22).

(e) The Holy Spirit becomes grieved ( Eph 4:30; cf. Heb 3:7-8), his fire is "put out" ( 1Th 5:19) and his temple (i.e., the person's body and life) is violated ( 1Co 3:16). As a result, the Holy Spirit eventually departs from the believer's life (Jdg 16:20; Ps 51:11; Ro 8:13; 1Co 3:16-17; Heb 3:14).

to all who commented

Friends,

In Peter stating "no prophecy of the Scripture", then explains what he's referring to in the next verse, "but holy men of God spake as they were " MOVED by the HOLY GHOST "

He's speaking of the Holy Spirit voice speaking in our hearts, 2Cor 4:6, which "Treasure we have in these earthen vessels", that Peter refers to 2Peter 1:19 "a light that shines in a dark place" 1John 2:27 it's the sure Word of prophecy This is how they received the faith that we are earnestly to contend for Jude 1:3 believing that it is He speaking to us, "the Word of Faith" that's near us even in our hearts & in our mouth, that Paul preached. Rom 10:17 the Living Word, Christ, not the letter, but His Spirit.

For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy Rev 19:10 by which the Scriptures were received & written , 2 Tim 3:16

It's the Spirit of Grace appearance, refer to in John 1:9, that Peter is referring to as the sure Word, for He will speak the same meaning of the Scriptures to all, which He inspired. John 16:13

For all that would submit to Him, He will bring into the unity of the Faith of the Son of God as it was in the beginning

Acts 4:32

This present "thread" is an witness against all of you of His lack of inspiration among you,

Given forth for no other reason, but to awaken you to the reality of your condition, that you may recover from her cup.

Rev 17:2-5

In love & truth

Jude 1:3,4 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the COMMON SALVATION, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH which was ONCE DELIVERED ONTO THE SAINTS. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the GRACE of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:1-10 And you hath HE QUICKENED, who were DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were DEAD IN SINS, hath QUICKENED US together with Christ, (by GRACE ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his GRACE in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should WALK IN THEM.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the WORKS OF THE LAW: for by the WORKS OF THE LAW shall NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE:---

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do KNOW that we KNOW HIM, if we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

I'm sorry Rainwalker, the belief in a literal Hell & a literal eternal torment for those who have rejected God & His Christ is not an idea from the dark ages nor from the Vatican - this is Scripture & plenty of them to support it. It's how one chooses to read, understand & accept the teachings from the Word that is in question - the Word does not change.

Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.

Hi S Spencer,

I agree this should not cause any division, we must always treat each other with care and love of growing in faith and knowledge of the word of God.

Everlasting punishment, I once understood the same as you on this when we read Matt. 18:8 Matt. 25:46 and 2 Thess. 1:9 they seem to support it. And the verses that have "weeping or wailing and gnashing of teeth" that I cringe every time I read them. So, after the white throne judgment, all the wicked and unsaved people will be cast into the lake of fire the everlasting fire Rev. 20:15 Rev. 21:8 and they have a conscious eternal, everlasting, forever and ever suffering.

On the other hand, we have Matt. 10:28 God can destroy both soul and body in hell/geenna. This carries us back to that other topic the immortal soul. In John 3:16 and Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wicked will perish, be destroyed, and be consumed. If the wicked are to be tortured in the lake of fire forever, they would also be given eternal life.

The fire is everlasting, it is permanent they will be destroyed and never come back they will not ever live again. We see what eternal fire can do in Jude 1:7 with Sodom and Gomorrha they were destroyed and have never returned.

Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You may see this verse differently but "shall have their part in the lake" I understand as God's fair justice, like stripes in Luke 12:48. Just punishment for their works or should be said their wickedness. If the wages of sin is death I believe the second death is everlasting death, forever to be no more, not everlasting punishment.

Just my understanding thanks again for your replies.

God bless,

RLW

Jema and others,

The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment. This occurs in their Soul, which then can NEVER DIE. But their Body has not yet become "saved" and will die.

So when the True Believer dies, their Body goes into the grave and corrupts; and must wait the Last Day to be Resurrected a Spiritual Body. But in their Soul, they go immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at HOME in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jude 1:14,15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Hi Jema,

You state: "I think there is a difference between trying to obey the commandments and believing that we need to obey them in order to be acceptable to God." Jesus doesn't agree with you Jema, and He is telling you that we must do this to be acceptable - to Him. I previously gave you the verse below spoken by Jesus, He is telling us point blank:

Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Jesus leaves no wiggle room in the above verse. Hebrews 4:12 False teachers are very prevalent today, they are out amongst us, they believe and teach others that they can ignore tons of scripture like this regarding the commandments and sin. They live worldly lives almost indistinguishable from the secular/atheists. They try to convince themselves, and others that they can have this world and still receive salvation. Jude 1:10

Jema, I remember FrankieJ previously gave you some good spiritual advice, I will also. We must withdraw from the world. Put God first, including His Commands/Commandments.

Stop telling yourself and others that you can NEVER stop sinning. If you have God's Holy Spirit anything is possible! Have Faith! Believe!!!

Encourage yourself and others to stop sinning. Similar to alcohol and drugs, Sin is a Addiction. If you don't acknowledge it - it will control you and ultimately bring you to destruction.

3 John 1:11 "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."

And please remember if you want God to dwell in you: 1 John 3:24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

GBU

In KJV it says

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

(looks like, this speaks about causing problem to himself)

But in Tyndale it says

Jude 1:19 These are makers of sectes fleshlie havynge no sprete.

(looks like, this speaks about causing problem to the church)

In BSB it says: These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit.

Which one is correct "separate themselves" or "makers of sectes" or "cause divisions" as in other translations?

Because both "separate themselves" and "cause divisions" are different in meaning.

Friend, you stated in pt 4

"Why do we say that sanctification makes us blameless, not faultless? Because the Grace of God working in us does not make us infallible. Sin has so perverted our moral and spiritual powers that we shall never in this present life be free from the infirmities of human nature."

This is a subtle lie, cleverly disguise within a lot of truth, whether intentional or not, I hope it was the later.

blameless def; is an adjective that means "innocent of wrongdoing" or "free from blame or fault"

faultless def; is an adjective that means having no fault, mistake, defect, imperfection, blemish, flaw, error, vice, or offense. It describes something that is perfect in all respect

Titus 2:11-14 all iniquity

Jude 1:24 faultless without blame, without blemish, faultless.

From a (as a negative particle) and momos; unblemished (literally or figuratively) -- without blame (blemish, fault, spot), faultless, unblamable.

Ephesians 5:27

The Grace of God is the Almighty, who we have in these earthen vessels; Isa 14:27 only to the unbelievers are these things impossible Matt 13:58 Hebrews 3:19

Hello One eighty - thanks for your response as it helps me understand more about you and where you are spiritually.

I'll share some "meat" with you that you can respond by telling me whether you agree or not with what I am sharing with you below.

In the following three verses, Jesus uses the term "...cannot be my disciple" implying that Discipleship is a mandatory requirement to becoming "saved':

"If any man come to me, and hate not [meaning love less than Christ] his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." ( Luke 14:26)

"And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." ( Luke 14:27)

"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all [of his worldly possessions] that he hath, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." ( Luke 14:33)

In this last verse, Jesus is again saying to every Christian - in much the same way as he said to the rich young ruler - "...sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." ( Luke 18:22-23)

When I came to Jesus some 30+ years ago, I had the choice to abandon ALL that I had and take up my cross and follow Jesus or chase family members who had rejected me for no reason at all. I willingly chose to make that choice to follow Jesus, and have never regretted doing so.

However, such choices also require God's people to bring forth "...PATIENCE and FAITH in all your PERSECUTIONS and TRIBULATIONS that ye endure" (2 Thes 1:4) together with "... INFIRMITIES, in REPROACHES, in NECESSITIES, in PERSECUTIONS, in DISTRESSES for Christ's sake" ( 2 Cor 12:10) while "...earnestly CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH" ( Jude 1:3) among those who "...corrupt the word of God ( 2 Cor. 2:17).

Given that most Christians profess that they have ETERNAL SECURITY (which contradicts Phil 2:12 and 1 Peter 5:8-9), how do you relate to the scripture verses in Luke 14 above?

Blessings, Alan

3 of 3

4. 1 John 1:7-10; We all come into the world as miserable sinners Rom 3:23; but with the coming of Christ/Grace we don't have to stay that way, Rom 3:24; through the obedience of faith in the Light of His Countenance that shine in our heart, 7-10 explains the operations of Grace appearance, John 16:8 bringing these to seeds into judgment within conscience, if we then say we have not sin, we deceive ourselves ,make Him a liar & the Truth/Word is not engraft within us. But if received, He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, iniquity, transgression & sin, Titus 2:14; By receiving His convictions, is the Power received, & everyone that 1John 3:3; is experience. So there a time when He finds us in sin, & a time that He cleanse from all sin.

5. Jude 1:21-24; ; Keeping yourselves in the love of God/ is by keeping His commandments, 1John 2:3-6; John 14:24; the Light of His Countenance that shine in our hearts

& in doing so He will keep you from falling, present you faultless! This is obviously from sinning against Him.

The "some" in Jude 1:22 could be referring to two different groups of people.

1. It could have been in reference to "some" believers who were being influenced by the false teachers in Jude 1:4 who "...crept in unawares...", and compassion was needed to ground them in the faith so they would not depart from the faith.

2. The "Some" could also have been those who were close to being saved, and great compassion was needed to bring them to a place of receiving Christ as Saviour.

This is for those who were wondering what it meant.

God Bless you!

Hi Adam.

John 5:24. actually says exactly that along with a accumulation of scripture when discerning them properly.

Here's John 5:24. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE".

Also see John 11:25-26.

There's physical death and there is spiritual death.

Everyone will die the physical death, ( Once.) Hebrews 9:27. Jesus took care of the Spitual death on the cross.

Those who haven't trusted Christ is ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD! There is no sequence to this. You see it in Jude 1:12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots;

Revelation 20:13-14. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

This concept is spreaded broadly throughout scripture when interpreted right.

Romans 6:3-11.

Ephesians 2:1-9. And you HATH HE QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins: He gave life!

This is there present condition.

He didn't say "You whom he WILL quicken!"

If we don't have eternal life now, we don't have nothing to apply our faith to.

God bless.

Part 2.

3. The word of God the Bible is either it has happened, or it is happening, and it is for us set as an example for how we should live before the Lord our God. it is also very current and accurate. See Malach 3:16 and Jude 1:7. thus

it is written in Hebrews 4:12

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

and in 2 timothy 3:16

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work

-And There are prophecy which will come to be fulfilled like the coming of the ant-Christ but remember there are many anti-Christ today.

as it is written in 1 John 2:18

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour

4. anyone who turns away from sins makes himself a prey it is written in.

Isaiah 59:15

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

-So the devil does not care for anyone who calls himself Christian but is not committed. But if anyone is committed and obeys Gods word and does all is written in the bible then Satan shifts all his attentions to them and hence the wiles of the devil. Therefore, put all the Armour of God not one but all. as it is written in Ephesians 6:11

11Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Please read part 3.

Amen

Hi David0921,

I know we have different understandings of this and I am probably in the minority but that is ok. To me, it hinges on whether the soul is mortal or immortal and I have not found any scripture that supports the soul is immortal when comparing all scriptures about the soul, (I hope that makes sense).

Like 1 Thess. 4:13-17 My understanding is Paul is trying to ensure the people their loved ones who believed in Jesus who had died (asleep) would not be left out of the resurrection when Jesus returns. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If we believe Jesus died and rose we who die before He returns will also rise (resurrect, awake) from our sleep (death).

"God will bring with him" seems to fit the picture in Jude 1:14-15, but does it agree with being resurrected? My understanding is 1 Thess. 4:17 The earth is round and those resurrected when Jesus returns will meet Him in the air and He brings those with Him down with Him, not going back up.

2 Cor. 5:6-8 We all look forward to being with Jesus but when will we be absent from this body? What is the resurrection of the dead? Resurrection is an awakening, our soul is who we are the essence of our being that is what God resurrects to either eternal life or death, 1 Cor. 15:35-55.

My understanding is our soul is not immortal our soul, that is who we are, and as our body, it is mortal. We will die/sleep until we are resurrected into our immortal body and that is when we will be free and absent from this fleshly body we have now and will be with the Lord.

My understanding is all who have lived will be resurrected John 5:28-29. We will be on the earth when it is made new not in heaven.

If we do not agree on this subject it is ok as long as we treat each other with love and inspire each other to study.

God bless,

RLW

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:14,15

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

True, David0921, 'stagnation' would be too subtle a word to more fully describe how the Church at large treats God's Word & deals with sin & rebuke of erring ones. Unfortunately, from my limited experience, it seems that the larger the Church (congregation), the weaker they are in some of these areas we've referred to. The smaller, & probably the more exclusive (sectarian) of them, keep a much more rigid control on behavior & adherence to the Word. Yet, saying that, often their teachings also tend to be a little off-track. A few however, I believe, have found the right balance.

Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.

I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.

Pg 1

Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).

When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').

Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.

Here's some scripture- this is what really matters:

Rev 14:11-12 - this draws a distinction between people burning in hell and people of God (Christians) who "keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" Those who are inbetween or lukewarm are rejected and won't be saved: Rev 3:16.

Why would the verse say "remain faithful to Jesus" if they are already "saved" people of God? That is conditional. If people chose to not be faithful to Jesus overall they probably aren't people of God.

Rev 13:8 everyone on earth will worship the beast and will burn in hell for eternity according to Rev 14:11.

Rev 2:23. Jesus will repay each according to your deeds.

Rev 2:25. Hold on to the teachings you have until Jesus comes.

Rev 2:5 talks about falling away from the faith- they need to repent.

Rev 1:8 Jesus is the Lord God.

Jude 1:20 Building yourself up in faith. Suggests that building up and keeping the faith takes effort and practice like a muscle.

The scripture is clear what it means. It is the truth. What some people are saying is not the truth and not based on scripture. Beware of that.

Jimbob,

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ezekiel 36:24-29

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jude 1:24, 25

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The true gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does 100% of the work in saving us and our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way whatsoever.

If we have become saved it is because God has chosen us, paid for our sins, drawn us, and saved us. And He will therefore KEEP us.

If we are following a gospel where we can lose our salvation, we are not following the gospel of the Bible.

Hello Charlie. I don't believe that the Old Testament Apocryphal Books were largely accepted by the Church. Many had accepted them as authoritative & scriptural & even included them in the Canon of Scripture (whether within the OT framework or as additions to it), but many didn't accept them for various reasons.

If you're enquiring as to why these books were not included or even removed from the Canon, then the reasons are many. Some of them are: they were never cited as books of reference in the NT (even though we have Jude 1:14,15 & 2 Timothy 3:8 as possible examples). These quotations by Jude & Paul do give some authoritative weight to those books, though they are only mentioned to strengthen the text, just as Paul referred to the Cretians ( Titus 1:12) & in Acts 17:28 (to the Athenian poets).

The Apocrypha books were never accepted by the Jews as divinely inspired writings & were never a part of the Hebrew canon. Those books were written during those 400 'silent years' between the Testaments. Both Jewish & NT sources agree that no divinely inspired prophetic utterance occurred at that time. Jesus never referred to them as He often did to the accepted OT Scriptures. As well, even though some Truth can be gleaned from those books, they do also contain errors, both in historical matters & doctrine. When any writing, then or now, gives details that are contrary to what has been given to us (even that of the NT Apocrypha), then they must be held in suspicion. Many do read from those apocryphal books & have even asked on this Site about their authenticity & authority, but I've always shared that if one is inclined to read or study from them, that they do so guardedly & with utmost care (watching for historical & doctrinal inaccuracies), always resorting to the accepted Canon of Scripture as their final authority.

Hi Kay. If I may just share my thoughts on what you've written, pre-empting Richard's comment: you've quoted Revelation 3:15,16, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." I understand Jesus' Words to the Laodicean Church that the works (or, fruit) they bore from their 'Christian experience' was "neither cold nor hot", or, 'their works & life lived did not resemble the cold (the unbeliever) or the hot (the one in Christ & Christ in them). Rather, Jesus saw them as lukewarm (fence-sitters, middle-of-the-road, nominal practising Christians). Jesus would rather see them for who they are: be it cold (unbelievers) or hot (believers), as there was no place in His Kingdom for the lukewarm (considered to be non-Christians, imposters in the Church). Not only in Laodicea, but greatly in Christendom today, lukewarmness is the order of the day - and Jesus would have none of it.

And Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Our brother Jesse who is regularly seen on these pages, has shown us from the original Greek language, that our reading of this verse should be: "The one, however, having endured to the end, he will be saved" (direct rendering from the Greek). So, this verse doesn't speak of a Christian enduring to the end & then gaining salvation - there are many other verses that suggest otherwise speaking of the believer's security in Christ now; but that if we truly believe & have God's Holy Spirit in us, we WILL endure to the end - no exceptions, because that is the very Nature & Purpose of the Holy Spirit in us "to keep us from falling (away) & to present us faultless before the presence of His Glory..." ( Jude 1:24).

Lukewarm 'Christians' & those who easily & regularly do despite to the Spirit of Grace in their manner of living, desperately need to be saved & secured in the Love of Christ.

Thoughts on the Rapture and timing as well as reasoning/

Note: I can't find the prequel as it were to this thread; so the audience may be limited. I may get into further discussion on the main discussion area but will try to sum things up here.

A major issue here that I have opened the "can of worms" on is; in regard to just who is identified as those dressed in white garments which were made that way through blood ( Rev. 7:14 referring to robes). It certainly can be expected that the witness of the 144,000 will bring many to faith and willing martyrdom. Other verses referring those whose garments were made white make verses such as Revelation 3:4; and Zechariah 3:3 be contrasted with Ephesians 5:27. For if some in Laodicea are naked among other things; surely anyone with a garment in God's presence is saved; although it is much like Jude 1:23 being saved as though through the fire; or 1 Corinthians 3:15 where one suffers loss and not much remains after their works are burned up by and large. In other words I would argue that to have a garment in the first place we are saved; if we allow sin to spot it then there are certain ramifications; including what I propose as missing the reward of a rapture if indeed it is more than just a salvation prerequisite. I would strongly suggest in these last days; there is little fruit being produced; and the Lord of the harvest is looking for it. He will either purge us to produce more fruit ( John 15:2) or as the same verse indicates we are not His child (producing no fruit) and are eventually cut off. Again; we need to broaden our scope and see those who are unbelievers; those judged more harshly for hearing and rejecting the truth; lukewarm believers and those who are producing much fruit. We must as Hebrews suggest; believe God is a rewarder of those things done for Him ( Heb. 11:6). We also should pay attention to those seeking a better country ( Heb. 11:16) of those who willingly gave up their lives for this.

Jude 1:7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Genesis 19

4But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

I think they were known to be completely wicked in all manner

Hi Ernie.

Please allow me to correct a mistake I made.

I mentioned to you to take

Luke 17:34-37 and Parallel it with Revelation 19:11-18 Focusing on vs 17. On your way to verse 17 notice verrse 14.

Revelation 19:14.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.

This is also prophesied in Jude 1:14.

These clothed in fine linen is the same group in

Revelation 19:7-8.

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(8) And to her was granted that SHE SHOULD BE ARRAYED IN FINE LINEN, CLEAN AND WHITE: FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS.

I left out one of the connecting verses. ( Vs 8.)

These are a few of the connecting verses why we believe the Church comes with Christ on his second coming.

Luke 17:37.

Revelation 19:17.

Jude 1:14.

Revelation 19:7-8.

God bless.