Ecclesiastes
King James Version (KJV)
Discuss Ecclesiastes 12 Page 3
Viewing page: 3 of 8
< Previous Discussion Page Next Discussion Page >
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
It is in Ecclesiasticus 43:11, on the site, click on more, then click on Standard King James Bible Apocrypha. Click on Ecclesiasticus go to chapter 43 and there you go verse 11.
God bless,
RLW
I cannot find in Ecclesiastes the verse "Look upon the rainbow and praise him."
I am sure you will get different replies on this, my understanding is close to what is in your post. Soul and spirit are two different words but seem to think of being the same and are hard to separate in our mind. What happens to these when we die there are different understandings, does the soul sleep in the earth with the body, or is it immortal and go to two different places?
The word soul in Hebrew is nephesh meaning a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion. The Greek word psuche meaning the soul, life, self, a person's distinct identity.
The word spirit, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ruach meaning breath, wind, spirit, or the Greek word pneuma also meaning wind, breath, spirit, when writing about the spirit.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The spirit goes back to God Ecclesiastes 12:7
The Holy Spirit seals us until when? Ephesians 4:30
We are buried mortal, dead, in corruption and we are raised immortal incorruptible 1 Corinthians 15:42-44
All consciousness ends when we die. Psalm 6:5 Job 14:12-14 Job 17:13-16 Psalm 89:48 Psalm 115:17 Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
We sleep in the dust until resurrection day, the day of redemption. 1 Corinthians 15:51 1 Thessalonians 4:14 1 Corinthians 15:52-54
God raised Jesus from the dead after three days and three nights, so, Romans 8:1 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Have not found any scripture that says we or our soul or spirit is immortal, may someone else provide it if it is in the bible.
God bless,
RLW
in vain. Ecclesiastes 12:13 the whole duty of man.
I sense that our exchange will end shortly, as I do find agreement in what you have written about the apostle expressing a deep longing to "exit the trials of this life and enter the rest...". And likewise, with the Philippians verses, we are reminded again of his yearning to "be with Christ". As much as those of us who lean strongly to the departure of the spirit at death & immediately into the Lord's Presence, I'm still left wondering if that were not the case, then where do our spirits go? In the Old Testament, we get a view of a holding place (which is taken as a parable by many) & even Ecclesiastes 12:7, but what about post-Cross? Since I know your understanding of this, I don't wish to re-hash what has been discussed previously, but I feel that if I too held the position you hold, I would earnestly seek to learn what are the possible options before us of where the spirit of the dead go, if at all. There can't be too many options - is there no indication or hint in the NT of this interim state? If none, would it be strange that none of the apostles spoke of this? If I were a part of that early community, this would be a pressing enquiry, just as the apostle's words of assurance of the resurrection & the coming of the Lord to those despairing believers.
Ok, I understand that you were focussing on 2 Timothy 2:11 & not the whole. My mistake. I certainly can agree on that one, that the rapture is not referred to here.
Again, thank you for taking so much time to share your understanding & thoughts - I'm sure many of us have been benefited from them & no doubt will be able to take in those Scriptures with a fresh look & appreciation. Every blessing brother Bill.
When we die it is the same as when we sleep, we are not conscious, we are asleep in Jesus, Psalm 146:4 Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 we have no knowledge of our surroundings or time. This is the spirit that goes back to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7.
1 Thessalonians 4:14, when Jesus returns, this earth is round and those that are Christs will come from all over, and we see different places describing the gathering, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 along with Jesus, God brings those that are Christs with Him, the second coming back to earth to set up the kingdom on earth. I understand those who believe in the rapture being carried to heaven will disagree.
Soul; Hebrew, nephesh, meaning a soul, living being animal or human, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion. Greek psuch meaning, life, as the seat of affections and will, the self, the conscience, the individual. In our conscience that is in our soul is where the battle of the desires of the flesh and the Spirit. This is what remains asleep in the grave where ever the grave may be, awaiting resurrection when we put on immortality. Psalms 49:15 John 5:28-29
When are we absent from this body? 2 Corinthians 2:6-10 When do we appear at the judgment seat? 1 Thessalonians 2:19 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. When is a corn plant absent from its seed is it not when it springs forth from its grave of the earth? We are sown and until we are resurrected, being changed like the corn seed from corruption to incorruption, and this mortal puts on immortality being freed from this body of corruption, then we will be present with the Lord.
Sorry I got wordy I am sure not all will agree but that is ok this is just what I see.
God bless us all in the love of Jesus.
RLW
Precious brother Chris says: "I cannot find a suitable answer for," and asks Great Questions:
Where does the spirit of man go? Ecclesiastes 12:7 cp James 2:26
me: Does the soul also depart? Genesis 35:18
Is there a holding place for such? And where could this place be?
1) Before The Resurrection Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST, the paradise 'hold' was in "the heart {lower parts} of the earth" Matthew 12:40 Ephesians 4:9, Abraham's bosom, across a chasm from the 'torment' hold Luke 16:19-31 cp Luke 23:43
2) After The Resurrection Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST, paradise is now with The Throne Of God {Third Heaven?}, and Body Of CHRIST 'members' Immediately, upon physical death {'sleep' is the metaphor for the 'dead body'} "Depart to be WITH our Blessed God And Saviour, JESUS CHRIST!" 2 Corinthians 5:6,8 Philippians 1:21,23 'Confirmed' By:
3) ...Those 'asleep In JESUS'..." {metaphor for 'resting' in JESUS}, "...Will God {JESUS} Bring With HIM!" 1 Thessalonians 4:14 At our Great GRACE Departure! 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Amen?
4) Is the "sleep/rest" UNconscious? Scripture?: Luke 16:19-31 cp Revelation 6:9-11
-------------------------
Ed Bedore says: "A proper understanding of what the Bible teaches about Hell, Sheol, Hades, and the Grave dispels confusion over what happens to the soul at the time of physical death and guards against being led astray by those teaching the false doctrines of soul-sleep, eradication of the soul, the universal reconciliation of mankind, and the annihilation of the lost.":
More can be learned from his Excellent Article about this Bible Doctrine:
Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave by W. Edward Bedore
-------------------------------------
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
( 2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans - Philemon}, For ALL "to SEE," today,?): Link
Thanks for sharing all of the great scripture.
I think this scripture basically summarizes what is expected of me as a Christ follower:
Ecclesiastes 12: 13-14
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
And again this is reiterated by Jesus Christ many years after his death in Revelation to apostle John.
Revelation 12: 12-14
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
This is Jesus/God telling us that he will judge us in the manner above!
God Bless.
not from men or woman.
But if the bible is not quoted from the bible;
would wisdom still be of much value?
Jesus quoted his fathers words perfectly ( John 8). and the prophets
spoke from God ( Psalm 83:18)
Who is much wiser? Who is wiser to instruct mankind?
God ( Psalm 83:18) and his Son?
2 Timothy 3:16,17;
2 Peter 1:20,21 (holy spirit John 4:24)
John 17:3
John 14:6-28
Psalm 1:1-3
or
Men and many books?
Jeremiah 10:23
Romans 3:23
Ecclesiastes 12:12-14
Psalms. 146:3, 4
Hope you like
these scriptures.
Many have different views on this and some defend them fiercely and interpret scripture to fit those views. This is not a salvation question so here are some things you may study for your own conscience; we all will face the death of this fleshly body and how you decide to face it is up to you. ( Psalm 6:5) ( Job 14:12-14) ( Job 17:13-16) ( Psalm 89:48) ( Psalm 115:17) ( Ecclesiastes 9:5-10)
There is a verse in ( 1 Timothy 4:7) to keep in mind, the actual Greek word used by Paul in this verse was "mythous", from which the English words myth and mythology come. In the actual Greek text of this verse, Paul further characterizes these fables as profane "bebelous". The King James Version of the Bible renders as "profane and old wives' tales".
Does scripture without man's interpretation back up a belief? ( Luke 16:19-31) is taught that we go to heaven or hell when we die. Questions to ask; What is the context of this chapter? Is this a parable or a reality? Is it backed up by other scripture or does it line up with Greek mythology?
What is our spirit? ( Psalm 104:29) ( Ecclesiastes 12:7) ( James 2:26). Spirit meaning wind, breath, spirit. When are we absent from our bodies? If we go to heaven when we die what is the meaning of ( 1 Corinthians 15:52-58)?
My personal understanding what scripture says is our spirit is our breath, and when we die it goes back to God who gave it, and our communication through the Holy Spirit stops until the resurrection,(sleep in Christ). And we being saved in Christ with the down payment/seal given by the Holy Spirit will be raised incorruptible in our new body and then we are absent from this fleshly body. But it is what you decide.
God bless.
RLW
"Can God die?" No, God is Spirit, He cannot die and none in the spirit realm can die since no physical body is present. One day we will die because our aging bodies must perish. But our spirits which cannot die, will return to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7).
But Jesus died, because God chose to send forth His Word to us a sinful people. And that Word became flesh ( John 1:14) & He was named Jesus ( Matthew 1:21-25), so that the people not only had God's final Word to them coming in human form ( John 8:42,43), but He also came as a man for the "suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9), that He should "taste death for every man". And this, Jesus did for us, so that when we believe on Him, confessing our sins, God will forgive us & accept us, only because He accepted His Son's death as a full & complete payment for our sins ( John 3:16-18).
So God Who is Spirit cannot die, but when He sent His Word to become a man, then yes, God did give us His life for us. But as you may know, the account doesn't end there: Jesus arose from death & the grave, ascended to Heaven in His glorified body & is seated now at God's right Hand where His Testimony is ever present before all in Heaven & Earth ( Hebrews 10:12; 7:25) - God's sacrificial Lamb Who was once slain and is now the only reason for our acceptance by God.
This is something you must decide, there are different views. Study the words soul and spirit, and breath, how they are used through the Bible. One thing, there is no time or knowledge in death ( Psalm 6:5) so whatever you decide, it's like when we go to sleep the next thing we know, we wake up.
When the gospel of Christ was given to the Gentiles, the countries around, even the Jews were influenced by Hellenistic Greek Philosophy, beliefs like what happens when we die, mythical stories of death, paradise, hades, and the underworlds crossed over.
The word "soul" means "life," either physical or eternal. Hebrew word nephesh meaning a soul, ( Genesis 2:7) living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion. The Greek word psuche meaning the soul, life, self, a person's distinct identity. If you study them, it is also used for all living beings' fish, animals, birds, and man. The soul is a living being but it is also our identity, we are all different in looks and personality, all our feelings, our thoughts, emotions, all that makes us, us.
The word spirit, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word ruach meaning breath, wind, spirit, or the Greek word pneuma also meaning wind, breath, spirit, when writing about the spirit.
What I have been shown in my studies, spirit is our breath, also what we communicate and worship God through the Holy Spirit. When we die our breath goes back to God ( Ecclesiastes 12:7) and our communication stops. ( Psalm 115:17) ( Psalms 146:4) ( Job 14:12-14)
We are asleep, body and soul until we are resurrected, that's when this mortal puts on immortality. ( 1 Corinthians 15:42, 51-56).
Sleep is used many times in the Bible for death and it is a very good example, may this give you another view and something you can study.
May we be led by the Spirit of truth.
RLW
I think you are wrong on 2 counts:
1) God says the spirit returns to Him, not to Jesus or the Holy spirit.
( Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
2) The trinity is not Bible doctrine. The Bible names these 3 but nowhere does it mention or commit to a trinity.
What else do you think about Bible mystics?
When we die, our souls return to God the Father, not to Jesus.
( Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Most of us will face this, Death. Do we sleep in the earth until the resurrection, or go to heaven to be with the Lord? Regardless of which belief, there is no knowledge, no love, no hate, no work, no thoughts, no wisdom, or time in death. Some scriptures can be used to support both beliefs but it is for you to decide in your heart. Can we say either belief is wrong?
When the gospel of Christ was given to the Gentiles, the countries around were highly influenced by Greek Philosophy and beliefs like what happens when we die, mythical stories of death, paradise, hades, underworlds on more were widely spread by the people who were Greek and they stuck. I know some will disagree but that's ok we are not talking about things that cannot be debated that, like the only hope we have for salvation and eternal life is the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope this is not offensive or confusing. I thought instead of answering I would do something different, just ask a few questions I had and wrote down, when I studied this a while back, may they help you decide for your conscience.
I believe our body is just the dwelling place of our soul, and our spirit (breath) given to us by God is what keeps us alive. ( Ecclesiastes 12:7) ( Psalm 104:29) ( Psalm 146:4) ( James 2:26)
If we say our soul (we/us) is immortal and we are appointed once to die, what dies?
What is resurrected if our soul is already in heaven?
We are sealed (earnest, the down payment) by the Holy Spirit until when?
When are we redeemed?
Is our soul or our body the flesh that is corruptible and must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality?
When will we be absent from this body, is it when we die, or when we are resurrected?
When we meet Jesus in the air does scripture tell us where we go after we meet?
Again, I hope this is taken in love and not confusing, and may we be led by the Holy Spirit of truth.
RLW
The Bible says we will all first be judged. Not just non-Christians, not just "sinners."
Ecclesiastes 12:14
2 Corinthians 5:10
Matthew 12:36
We also know that some will be confident and assume they'll go to heaven, but won't get in.
Matthew 7:21
To me that means that no one is going to either of those places until after judgment day:
Revelation 20:11-15
Hebrews 9:27
1 Corinthians 4:5
And finally, if people don't go to heaven or hell when they die, where else do they go? Here's what the Bible says:
Job 14:12
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Thessalonians 4:17
I believe just as 8 hours can pass in the snap of a finger will it seem like a snap of the finger for those "sleeping" will awake and rise to meet Jesus in the air then face judgment. This took time to put together and paste all these verses here for you, so I hope you likewise take a moment to hover over them and read them. I care.
I very much agree with you that all souls return to God. Who gave us our spirit as in Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Though as I believe Jesus Christ is at the right hand of God and on the Throne of God in Heaven. As Acts 7:55, Colossians 3:1-4, Hebrews 8:1, Revelation 3:21, Revelation 21:22-23, etc.
I believe I will see, and be with, Jesus Christ, God our Father, and our whole family in Heaven.
God Bless. Have a wonderful day!
I like your aim. I must tell you that all souls return to God, not Jesus.
( Ecclesiastes 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It's another angle to consider.
(But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.)
Titus 3:9
(But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.) When it comes to God's Word no one knows it better than God, go to him, pray for understanding and whatsoever in faith believing ye ask, ye shall receive! The preacher said it best in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.) God Bless and fight the good fight.
However, since then I have read in God's Word that this is not so. In John 11:11-14, Jesus tell His apostles that Lazarus is sleeping, but Jesus goes to wake him up. Finally, Jesus tells His apostles that Lazarus is dead. Also, see 1
Thessalonians 4:15-17. And, John 5:28-29. See, Genus 2:7. Ecclesiastes 12:7. Importantly, Psalms 146:3-4. Again, "Who Only Has Immortality? See, 1 Timothy 6:16. And those who SEEK, Romans 2:7. In 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 we learn.... Knowing what God's Word really says is priceless, see, Psalms 115:17, "The dead praise NOT the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." Must read, Ecclesiae's 9:5,6, 10. 5."For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of then is forgotten. 6. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 10. Whatsoever thy hand findet to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goes." NOTE: 2 Timothy 3:16, "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" There is more, but I think by now you get the idea.... God bless you as you prayerfully Study the above....
What is our spirit? Some use the Bible verse Ecclesiastes 12:7 to support the belief of going to heaven when we die. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. God gave us breath like in Genesis; God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
Without spirit, the body is dead. Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Therefore, in the Bible, the word ruach is translated not only as "spirit" but also as "force," or life-force, breath is life.
Think of when you go in or out of a room you flip the light switch and the light goes on or off, the electricity is the spirit of the light bulb and without it the bulb is dead. There is also the Spirit we worship God, is it also similar to the electricity that turns on the light bulb?
Yes, it flows like electricity but it carries comfort, guidance, truth, love, it regenerates and renews and assists believers in prayer. Spirit, is the same word as breath, but what flows through this Holy Spirit is not air or electricity. It is an invisible channel and a door, we communicate to and from God in the name of Jesus, a dwelling place (mansion) in us, Jesus restored with his death on the cross.
God bless, Ron
The 144,000 out of great tribulation are judged ( Revelation 20:4) and made whole. These are the elect only, no others. Resurrection scriptures were tailored for the elect, of the great tribulation, who rise first.
The resurrection accounts of the 144,000 are on record, and their numbers add up: "10,000 x 10,000 = 100,000 + thousands and thousands" is another way of saying 144,000. ( Revelation 7:9 [that's them]) ...a great multitude...in white robes...out of the great tribulation. ( Revelation 11:12)
( Revelation 5:11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.
( Revelation 7:13-14) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes (fifth seal brethren) and whence came they?....they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes...
It makes sense for the 144,000 to rule the world with Christ for the 1,000 years. Then bring up the balance for the new heaven and new earth.
For resurrection perspective, the current world population is 7.8 billion people.
Conservatively speaking, 25 billion Christians have lived since the first century AD.
If these 25 billion dead in Christ are resurrected at the last trumpet, where will they go?
25 billion (physically) are not sustainable, suggesting that the first fruits are a small body of the core church. Many will remain asleep.
THE SECOND RESURRECTION: God's balance of 108 billion souls will come to the table. ( Ecclesiastes 12:7) The new earth & new heaven will accommodate all.
So, the Church is not given a specific direction on this, as ultimately, the body returns to dust "from whence it came" ( Ecclesiastes 12:7). It then becomes the decision by the family of the departed to have a burial or a cremation, depending on preference, costs, or availability. My choice would always be for a burial, in line with what was practised by Israel.
I very much enjoy reading your posts. Thank you kindly for your replies. It is a Blessing to be able to converse with you on things like this.
First I will start by saying exactly what shall happen is all up to God, and His Will, as you know. In reality I don't believe any of us can perceive how deep the thoughts, and plans, of God truly are. One day when we return to Him, after our physical death, then we shall know things not known in earth. Ecclesiastes 12:7.
As I'm still not positive if that you perceive ALL to be saved in the end but that's what I think.
If it is God's will that all shall be saved then I'm all for that. For His Will shall be done and whatever that is is what I want also. Though I have so many Scriptures that pertain to things like "the unsaved being cast into eternal damnation, it being better that Judas Iscariot was not even born, things of Heaven(which I believe to be the Spiritual Kingdom of God), our names written in the book of Life, that not everyone's name shall be written in this book, etc." Also of things like you stated how the wisdom of God shall fill the earth. Habakkuk 2:14.
I believe, from my aspect, that all have the choice and chance to be saved by God. His mercy and forgiveness is everlasting. No matter what we have done in our lives. Though it doesn't seem all choose that path or will be with the Lord for eternity. As even angels have sinned and turned against God.
I will just post all the Scriptures I have that I see these things in. As no man taught me about the Lord. God lead me to Jesus Christ who saved me.
About Judas Matthew 26:24.
Not all making it to Heaven Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:37-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:7-8, Revelation 22:14-15, 2 Peter 2:1-9, 2 Peter 2:17,
Heaven Matthew 25:31-34, 2 Timothy 4:6-8, Philippians 3:20-21, 2 Timothy 4:6-8, 2 Timothy 4:18.
2 Peter 1:20. May the Lord bring us closer together.
God Bless.
I very much enjoyed reading your reply and I agree with most of what you stated. One thing you stated is very special to me. Shown to me very early, by our Father, in my journey with the Lord.
To try and not make this too long. About ( 1 Corinthians 15 24-28. Stating how the last enemy to be destroyed is death, this being the end. The end of just my life or all physical life? I cannot see how God is not all in all now. How He is the source of all life. The Creator of all. Knowing everything about everything, knowing the end before the beginning, and always being in control in Heaven and earth. Like you stated it is His Will that shall be done not ours. Job 34:14-15. Death being a part of this physical life when our spirit shall return to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7. All we see is vanity but what is not seen is eternal as ( 2 Corinthians 4:18.
How do you perceive when Jesus states of the sin that shall not be forgiven in Matthew 12:32 "neither in this world, neither in the world to come"? Do you perceive this as another physical earth or world after us? Or as like unto the angels who sinned and were cast down(from Heaven) to Tartarus ( 2 Peter 2:4? Meaning neither in earth or in Heaven.
I thank you very much for your reply and cherish very much someone to converse about spiritual things like this.
I still do not understand what you mean about the Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost to be different. Can you please give a reply about how in the Textus Receptus, the Greek texts, which our Holy Bible(NT) is translated from. "Ghost" and "spirit" is the same Greek word "pneuma". Strongs number G4151. Translated over 250 times as "spirit" and over 90 times "ghost" in English. There is no difference in Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. That I can see anyway.
Thank you again for your time sir. God Bless you.